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Thread: Who Can Speak From Experience About Comparing Vintage Gear to Modern Equipment?

  1. #16
    Senior Member alskinner's Avatar
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    Thanks Steve

    I also find in my experience that a lot of todays equipment lacks the naturalness of recorded instruments, not that there hasn't been some great advances in equipment like active crossovers and equalizers. What I do find lacking in many modern speaker systems is the natural sounding attack and decay of instrument notes and timbre. On the other hand as soon as the 1500AL and 435be become more available I will experiment further.

    AL

  2. #17
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    Interesting discussion and great post Steve.

    If we look back at early speakers most were large and hi sensitivity types for use with low power tube amps of the day.

    The cones were large and mostly rigid light weight paper construction with usual only one crossover point.

    Today we have a a lot of small dynamic drivers using a variety of cone materials designed to absorb large amounts of power in relatively small boxes.

    Is it an wonder given the laws of physics they fail to live of to hyped expectations.

  3. #18
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alskinner
    What I do find lacking in many modern speaker systems is the natural sounding attack and decay of instrument notes and timbre.

    AL
    This is what I was talking about as Wicked transient response, the old Altecs and JBL,s had snap, man they had that percussive response that really sounded the way an instruments attack sounded.

    I kind of feel that exactly what ALL the speaker makers today do to enable their drivers to handle ridiculous amounts of power is also what robs them of their ability to playback music in a believable fashion, JBL INCLUDED!

    Then of course, there is todays music itself, pop music having been taken over by the computer and home digital audio workstation, allowing people that are not musicians to make music, and I hear it all the time, people listening to classic music of the 50,s, 60,s, 70,s 80,s and early 90,s, and then, music seems to hit a standstill that has never really gone away. But to me, none of todays music sounds natural, analog recording is gone.
    scottyj

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    far fewer folks sit down and really listen to music as a pastime the way they used to.
    I completely agree. There simply isn't time for such activities anymore.

  5. #20
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    ...I don't think it is coincidental that far fewer folks sit down and really listen to music as a pastime the way they used to.
    I don't know if it's related to digital / technology advance, per se, but the observation is certainly true nonetheless.

    I find the less time I spend "here", translates into more time in-front of the JBL's. It's a surprisingly rewarding inverse relationship...
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  6. #21
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    There simply isn't time for such activities anymore.
    Or, todays music isnt good enough to captivate peoples attentions?

    Cause, Il`ll tell you, people still seem to have enough time to come to amusement areas like Coney Island to enjoy hot dogs, games and rides and go to the beach! This past Saturday and Sunday, plenty of people on the Coney beaches, radios blaring hip hop, reggaeton, and salsa music!

    And I had half an hour to look out over the beaches from the Boardwalk, and man, the bikinis! America still has time for our favorite pastimes!

    scottyj

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam
    I find the less time I spend "here", translates into more time in-front of the JBL's.
    I find that less time here translates into fixing stuff for other people.
    Quote Originally Posted by scott fitlin
    people still seem to have enough time to come to amusement areas like Coney Island to enjoy hot dogs, games and rides and go to the beach!
    I wonder what kinds of jobs they have... I mean, I realize that people do indeed do that kind of thing, I just can't figure out how they do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphs99
    I think the best of today easily beats the best of yesterday.
    Yeah, probably so.
    Quote Originally Posted by scott fitlin
    And I had half an hour to look out over the beaches from the Boardwalk, and man, the bikinis! America still has time for our favorite pastimes!
    Maybe I should just drive Rob's drivers out to him and check out Coney Island. How fast can I get through it? My wife knows exactly where your place is Scott having been there before.

  8. #23
    RIP 2010 scott fitlin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    I find that less time here translates into fixing stuff for other people.
    I wonder what kinds of jobs they have... I mean, I realize that people do indeed do that kind of thing, I just can't figure out how they do it.

    Maybe I should just drive Rob's drivers out to him and check out Coney Island. How fast can I get through it?
    Some people are store clerks, some are bank managers, all kinds of people do fun things on the weekends, even doctors and lawyers.

    You can get through Coney Island quickly or it can be an all day affair. Depends on the day, the pretty women, and how many beers you want to have!

    scottyj

  9. #24
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    Between the colder balance and the emotional distancing of modern technologies, I don't think it is coincidental that far fewer folks sit down and really listen to music as a pastime the way they used to.
    A major concomitant benefit of DIY is lots of "really listen."

    Tweak, listen ...

    A/B, listen ...

    Tweak some more, and really listen ...

    New project....

  10. #25
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    My experiences in recent years have mostly involved experimenting with mountains of used industrial sound equipment, horns, compression drivers and tube amps, pressing it into service for home use because its capabilites for natural sound reproduction run circles around much of today's "high end" (hind end?) gear. It strikes me as a crazy situation, and quite unfortunate, but that is how I see it.
    It isn't at all a crazy situation... it is your personal preference. After all what is natural sounding? To me it is a heartlessly revealing tonally neutral sound... one without any sense of soul or warmth of it's own. The perfect system to me is an open window to the recording. I don't want it to soften the details or obscure any of the beauty of the music or diminish any of the warts in the recording. The systems you are describing as superior have a fair amount of "character" or personality of their own. That is fine and you are certainly not alone in your appreciation of them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    Over the past few decades the quest has been for imaging and detail...
    That's for sure.. and there is a good reason that imaging and detail have become more important than they were in the '40s and early '50s... stereo didn't yet exist and the early recordings were not capable of capturing all of the nuance in a performance. By the late '50s recordings began improving and speaker systems began improving to allow us to enjoy the better recordings. It took another decade or two for engineers to really understand the requirements for great stereo recording and reproduction... it has taken quite awhile for truly outstanding stereo imaging to become available... it is today. Some consider it a special effect, which it is, but it is how the stereophonic promise is realized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    Despite the advances in some areas, I think I would have found more to like at a hi fi show in 1956 than in 2006. Also plenty of great stuff in the movie theatres in 1936!
    While I think it would be very cool to take a trip down that memory lane, I don't think those systems are able to compete with the better stuff of today, or even the better stuff from the '80s. I used to think that a person who advocated those honking and colored sounding systems of yesteryear simply hadn't heard the good stuff... now I am inclined to think that may be the case for some but there are others who just like that sound. Obviously you know what you like and it isn't the tonally neutral and detailed systems with incredible imaging that are available today. The superior accuracy of today's better systems isn't up for debate, whether you like it as well as the older stuff is certainly a matter of personal preference and in that realm no one can ever be wrong.


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  11. #26
    Senior Member Steve Schell's Avatar
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    Hi Mr. Widget,

    I hear ya, but I think you have me pictured as an anachrophile who prefers the sound of muffled old boomy hi fi stuff. That is far from the case, and I think that if we sat down and listened to some of our favorite equipment we would find considerable agreement in our preferences. Not sure I would like "...heartlessly revealing..." though, that sounds a lot like what Joe Roberts once referred to as "painfully accurate." Actually "revealing" would be a result of accuracy, which is what I am after. Tonal neutrality is a part of this, and it is one thing I seek in my work. So often in modern gear though, excessive, distortion-laden yet dynamically lacking high frequencies are passed off as detail, often accompanied by underachieving bass and mid bass. Dynamic compression is also pervasive in most high end speakers, which have considerably less jump than the 1930s theatre speakers.

    I guess my main frustration is that the average performance level of consumer audio gear (even at exhorbitant price points) is so much worse than it could have been, and should have been, considering the promising start the technology had many decades ago.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Audiobeer's Avatar
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    I wish I had time to sit around and listen to good music. Time is a commodity that years ago I took so much for granted. I have listened to some old audio gear that literaly knocked my socks off. Sounded fantastic. That was a rarity as it seemed most of the vintage stuff I was chasing always had worn or dirty pots and needed work......I guess that is what Ebay is for to some sellers. Some of the old Marantz and Mcintosh stuff really would make my JBLs sing. I always found that the pieces I purchased would cost a fortune to bring up to spec (Can't work on it myself). So after having pots and caps replaced it seemed that special sound had changed. A Pioneer SX-1250 and a Marantz 250M in particular come to mind for me. After adding up all the purchase & repair costs and downtime, I could have purchased a good used Aragon 4004MKII and come out ahead. It is fun trying it all out. But the fact is that I am convinced that buying a piece used from someone who is tired of it 2 years after it was made is smarter to me than doing the same with a piece that is 30 - 40 years old. The old Mcintosh amps I had like the 2250 count down were good investments in price and sound. Mcintosh still has the parts. Music.....well that is a different story. I just don't believe that there are as many good recording artists as there used to be. Some of the groups get succesful just mimicking each other.. Sometimes when I do get time I revisit the same music I listened to growing up in the 70s. In fact I end up missing some CDs because my daughters borrow them and forget to bring them back!

  13. #28
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    ...but I think you have me pictured as an anachrophile who prefers the sound of muffled old boomy hi fi stuff.
    No, but based on the gear you seem to like, I am not so sure we will agree on what high-fidelity really means. I agree that there are dozens of "high-end" systems that are god awful, but there are also dozens of stupidly expensive systems that are absolutely amazing...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    I guess my main frustration is that the average performance level of consumer audio gear (even at exhorbitant price points) is so much worse than it could have been, and should have been, considering the promising start the technology had many decades ago.
    I'll go with that... it is remarkable just how good the best work from Bell Labs and the rest was way back then... I am sure that they would have expected us to be much further along by now... priorities have changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    So often in modern gear though... often accompanied by underachieving bass and mid bass.
    In the early '80s John Meyer was working on improving theater sound. He installed some large bass reflex subs in a local theater and measured their output... they were significantly lower in distortion, offered deeper extension, and greater SPLs... the booming horn loaded Altecs sounded louder and bigger... the test audience was divided as to which sounded better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    Dynamic compression is also pervasive in most high end speakers, which have considerably less jump than the 1930s theatre speakers.
    Have you listened to the Wilson Grand Slams or the Maxx 2s? How about the TAD Model 1s or the JMLab Grand Utopias? All of these speakers sound pretty darn accurate, have plenty of "jump" and offer HF extension that no phenolic tweeter ever will... Sure they all cost as much as very nice car, but if you purchased a brand new '30s style theater system that was engineered from the ground up today, it'd cost about the same... maybe not if furnished in raw plywood.


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  14. #29
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Looking at it from another angle...

    Many people rip on contemporary gear... and I'd agree if my baseline for comparison was what is available at Best Buy, Circuit City and the rest... you can't find a decent speaker or amp or even computer monitor in any of those places... they sell cheap junk at low prices. The fact is that most of us or our parents couldn't afford a pair of Hartsfields or a Paragon when they were new, and most of us can't afford today's versions either... the distortion in our comparison of today's gear versus yesterday's gear is that there are some remarkably good values on the used market so we can afford some outrageously good vintage stuff even if we can't afford the really great new stuff.



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  15. #30
    Senior Member duaneage's Avatar
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    I have a lot of "vintage" Yamaha gear from the 80's. I like the look of the components and I also feel the quality is great compared to today's Made In China stuff (no offense Northwood) and I have not had trouble with it.

    Since I listen to old music it seems correct to use old speakers. new music doesnot do much for me anymore. I like some new Jazz but not much else.

    I'm not against newer technology per se, I just prefer the older stuff. Someday we will be talking about todays technology as vintage, right?

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