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Thread: Who Can Speak From Experience About Comparing Vintage Gear to Modern Equipment?

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  1. #1
    markus
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    Who Can Speak From Experience About Comparing Vintage Gear to Modern Equipment?

    It is well known that certain pieces of vintage equipment fetch very high prices in certain parts of the world. A recent thread on the popularity and currently very high prices commanded on LS 3/5a speakers, over on the Pink Fish Media forum offers a case in point.

    The purpose of this thread is to request the comments of those who have experience with some of the so-sought-after vintage pieces. How do these pieces compare to current equipment or equipment of, say, middle vintage? Is the hype valid? Or simply the result of mass/shared beliefs?

    Part of the reason I ask is that, near where I live, a JBL Paragon speaker system recently went up for auction, fetching over $9,000. Comparable pieces can be seen on Audiogon for 15k. On the Klipsch Forum a post said that some of these old pieces were sonically inferior to less expensive, newer pieces. It is understandable that old driver surrounds may have stiffened, or be damaged, but a further point is whether the fundamental design may have intrinsic limitations which would render the sound "dated" by comparison to new designs and technology.

    From personal experience I can speak to the idea that some pieces of new equipment seem to be a breakthrough. I remember spending a day with a high quality passive preamp - it made the Naim 72/hicap I was comparing it to sound like a muffled, soggy muddle by comparison (note that I own and use a 72/hicap). But perhaps the sonic compromises with the 72/'cap were due to impedance mismatches between the preamp, interconnects and the vtl 225 tube amplifiers we were listening through? I don't know...

    Sometimes equipment must be carefully matched to demonstrate its full potential and those who denigrate it have heard it incorrectly set up. Information about optimized setups would also be very interesting.

    So, for those of you who have experience and can share them, having heard properly set up vintage gear, I'd very much appreciate reading your comments here. Of particular interest are the old JBL's, Altec 17s, 19s and other horn-based systems, tannoys, Klipschs, tubes, quads, electrostatics, etc.

    I hope others will be as interested in this topic as I am. Thanks, in advance, to those who can share their experience.

    Markus

  2. #2
    Senior Member SUPERBEE's Avatar
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    I have posted this story here before...

    Sometime ago I decided I should look around at modern gear and make sure I wasnt "Missing out" on anything so I went to several local high end shops. After seeing tons of speakers that were so ugly I wouldnt even have them in my home much less enjoy listening to them I found a set of somethings for about $4,500. They sounded GREAT in the store and looked like normal speakers on nice stands.I plunk down the card whilst explaining that I might return them Monday if I dont like them. Get them home and hook them up directly in front of my Olympus speakers. I invite a few friends over and we demo LPs and CDs for several hours going back and forth moving the Somethings out of the way and re-hooking up the JBL's up over and over again. Well EVERYONE, myself included agreed that the JBL Olympus sounded way better. We all seemed to use the same terms like "Fuller body" and "Richer tones" along with "More presence in the vocals and guitar work" Bla Bla Bla...... I packaged the somethings back up and returned them on Saturday instead.

    I am done buying new gear for now. If I ever hear something that sounds better than what I have, I will buy it.

  3. #3
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    I think one reason vintage equipment brings such high prices is that "they don't build 'em like that anymore." Think vintage cars, with big chrome bumpers, etc. A far less expensive newer car will usually be better in all features - reliability, comfort, driveability, etc., but some people just have to have that which they either desired earlier in life or as a pristine example of "the way it was...".

    Of course, with proper setup, a lot of older gear can sound quite nice, but I hazard to say, for the $9K - $15K to purchase a Paragon, a little research and listening would find current speakers that are capable of sounding far better...

    'Just my opinion.

    John

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    John,

    Good question and its a case by case thing and you need to talk about specifics.

    ie Some sort after designs are timeless in that the design and materials have not altered for decades but may no longer be available hence the high prices on collector auctions.

    However, if you are comparing old hi end with mid new or new new hi end, as a rule the mid new or current models of hi end will always be better, particularly from the same manufacturer. The build quality of the premium brands as a rule does not change unless there has been a change in ownership.

  5. #5
    RIP 2011 Zilch's Avatar
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    It's not about the actual quality of the sound, rather the perceived "quality" of it, i.e., it's "character" and coloration.

    The technology has moved well ahead in 40 years, and doesn't sound the same anymore.

    No amount of expenditure on restoration, tweaking, or voodoo is going to bring "Vintage" up to today's standards.

    Primarily, it's about money, status, nostalgia....

    Some of it has esthetic value transcending the sound.

    Did I mention "Money?"

    Much of the rest is hype to inflate the price, is all....

  6. #6
    Senior Member SUPERBEE's Avatar
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    I used to live next door to a retired audio engineer in the early 90s and he helped me with my early JBL and MAC stuff. He told me then that

    "today your new stereo amp could get up and make you coffe in the morning and your new speakers could drive your car to work for you but as far as sounding better.........No......Audo gear really it its stride and had its best inovations thru the late 50s to the early 70s"

    He was a weird old guy, Right but weird.

  7. #7
    ralphs99
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    As Homer Simpson once said:

    "Everyone knows that music attained perfection in 1974!"

    Cheers,
    Ralph

  8. #8
    MJC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zilch
    It's not about the actual quality of the sound, rather the perceived "quality" of it, i.e., it's "character" and coloration.

    The technology has moved well ahead in 40 years, and doesn't sound the same anymore.
    No amount of expenditure on restoration, tweaking, or voodoo is going to bring "Vintage" up to today's standards....
    The sound has changed over the years. if only for the change of the source. LP, CD, DVD, DVD-audio, etc.
    But that second sentence, now there is a debate. I've been comparing, over the last two weeks, a new pair of Studio L 890s to a pair of upgraded(mirror imaged, and Charged-Coupled) L212s.
    Now the L890s are more dynamic, but for a wide, 3D soundstage, the L212s have the 890s beat, by a long shot.

  9. #9
    Senior Member HipoFutura's Avatar
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    EdgeWound, It's about 2,900 lbs, 510HP, and a street car. Pump gas, just a carb, and no NOS. Clevelands Rule!!

  10. #10
    Senior Señor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERBEE
    I have posted this story here before...... Bla Bla Bla...... I packaged the somethings back up and returned them
    Me too, and me too...

    In the most memorable, I took my measurement gear overseas for just this purpose. I had heard the system before, and didn't care for it - a host of reasons, but I wanted to measure the response.

    The measurements revealed why:
    - there was a steep roll-off on the LF
    - there was a deep and wide notch at the crossover point (~400Hz if I remember correctly. I emailed tech support with my curves asking "why and WTF?". They never replied but soon released a new improved line...)
    - the response was far from even

    Acoustically:
    - there was no bottom end
    - the mid-range was blaring
    - the highs were metallic

    They guy had all the elephantine cables you could dream of, and a monster class A amp weighting 300 lbs, and bass traps (because someone told him he needed them), but the sound was not good. There was great attention to the signal path but none to room acoustics (bass traps were the last thing he needed). I slipped in an EQ and filtered for the response of the room - it was a marked improvement, but was that system worth the cost? Not to me.

    These newer highly efficient and incredibly costly systems are too often just un-boxed, connected with railroad rails, and cherished. I can't justify their cost, but know the worry of applying the "cursed EQ" has compromised much of these systems' potential.

    Having said THAT, one cannot merely unbox the vintage JBL line of Studio Monitors, either. Their enjoyment benefits greatly from paying due attention to the acoustic response of the room.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

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    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by markus
    The purpose of this thread is to request the comments of those who have experience with some of the so-sought-after vintage pieces. How do these pieces compare to current equipment or equipment of, say, middle vintage? Is the hype valid? Or simply the result of mass/shared beliefs?

    From personal experience I can speak to the idea that some pieces of new equipment seem to be a breakthrough. I remember spending a day with a high quality passive preamp - it made the Naim 72/hicap I was comparing it to sound like a muffled, soggy muddle by comparison (note that I own and use a 72/hicap). But perhaps the sonic compromises with the 72/'cap were due to impedance mismatches between the preamp, interconnects and the vtl 225 tube amplifiers we were listening through? I don't know...

    Sometimes equipment must be carefully matched to demonstrate its full potential and those who denigrate it have heard it incorrectly set up. Information about optimized setups would also be very interesting.

    So, for those of you who have experience and can share them, having heard properly set up vintage gear, I'd very much appreciate reading your comments here. Of particular interest are the old JBL's, Altec 17s, 19s and other horn-based systems, tannoys, Klipschs, tubes, quads, electrostatics, etc.

    I hope others will be as interested in this topic as I am. Thanks, in advance, to those who can share their experience.

    Markus
    Well back to the point before the landslide from no where what we were talkign about was "WHY"" certain combinations of old with old and other old with new sound so cool and yet others combinations are not so nice.

    Years ago I worked for Hoyts (cinemas) and they decided to do the whole multi matrix thing with 6-10 cinemas in each centre. Aside from the destroying all the grand old theatres they through out the original systems and all the valve amps and other aspects of the sound system.

    Who was the first to complain..the projectionists. They hated the new sound. That went in was a contractor installed solid state amps with many of the original VOTT still entact. The budget did not allow upgrade of those.

    I recall it sounded hard, thin, lifelesss and dry and worst of all the bass lacked guts. I think its reasonable to assume if the guys who designed and installed the original systems calibrated and voiced them as one to sound good back then and its was the intent then as it is currently then nothing has changed.

    When you start taking things apart in isolation and swapping out old for new there can be issues and this is where the old can get a bad wrap.

    >One of our members is / was a projectionist .so .it would be interesting to get his observations.

  13. #13
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    Well just think on a 300b SET...

    Think on the 300b set new devices using WECO 300b tubes!
    There must be something about that knowledge...

    I had the chance to listen to stuff like: WECO 46, 43, 86 + other WECO for 300b amps through WECO 555's and 594's drivers with the most venerable WECO horns , 16 , 15, 13,17, 24 and 25 or the little setups with 713b/C and 12025-4-3 horns. The luck of course to match with ta4181's ta-4151's and 754 bass drivers.
    If you have the money to restore the electronics to original and improve with better caps , restore the cones and diaph's you will have a glorious system. With all the benefits of horns , like transparency and definition on the mids.I've never listened to the 3 way WECO setups ,so I can't talk about crisp highs. You have in mind that a complete WECO setup drive you easily over the $100K tag price.

    The problem of this setups are the same with JBL , Altec , EV , Klipshchs ..... etc. The crossovers are designed giving the mids 10-15db at least over the bass and 5-10db more than tweeters ( in case of 3 ways). So you'd have a harsh sounding speaker. Considering as well
    that vintage speakers were tuned down to 40-50hz only!

    My own experience , giving me one of the best sounding speakers
    I ever heard is :
    1)Take a 136a , le15a or b driver or pro-equivalents with broken cones or foams, restore them with the 2235h/j recone. Make a nice cabinet tuning the bass
    to 28hz or even 20hz ( not recommeded). Cost app. $ 600-800 drivers and cabs depend on you .
    2) Take the le175 ,le85 or pro equivalents not 375 ( for me is too much of metal through it)
    and matching horns. Cost app. $600-700.
    3) Take the 2405 - 077, please do not consider for a minute the 2402
    if you are on a budget the ferrite new tweeters will fit too. Cost $300-700.
    4) Make your own X-overs or get the 3115-3105 combo for instance.
    THEN USE A RESISTOR TO DOWN ON 10DB THE MIDRANGE. JUST THE HORN NOT THE TWEETER. Cost $ 150-600.
    So with the cheaper options you get the kit for $1650 + cabinetry.
    Maybe you get one of the better speakers out there for $2500!!
    With new recones them will last for 20 more years!!

    Now the best speakers for me were my brother in-law's experiment:
    Project everest speakers modification:
    1) original project everest speakers.
    2) midrange and woofers replaced for TAD top of line drivers.
    The 145-h are a disgrace ( no matter the EVerest were designed to Japanese homes ).
    3) jbl 2405 replaced for 077's alnico units.
    4) Crossovers ( a disgrace the ones that everest carry)
    changed for : a) N-333 ( from L-300) b ) custom ones made by Classic audio reproductions ... he has 2 pairs of Everest modified.

    The comparations with these speakers were made with :
    wilson audio x-1 , proac's top of line , dunlavy's sc-vi , last k2 ( he owns a pair too ) model , my own JBL project , B&W top of line models .....well
    maybe i forgot someones but the list is long and full of top names....
    The modified Everest make the others play like child toys.

    If you want to know what kind of electronics were used :
    system
    a) Kondo KSL Ongaku + Kondo KSL DAC + Jadis later JD1 transport.
    b ) Cary 805 AE + cary sl98 + cary top cd player.

    Both systems were absolutely outstanding but the same timbre and
    reality was present on them and the other virtues( theme for other post) as well. The only coincident units were the speakers , so...
    Unfortunately the price for this project is substantially higher than on my own speakers.
    Sincerely Victor.

  14. #14
    Junior Member Edwards's Avatar
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    New VS Vintage

    This is the age old story that plagues people in more than the area of electronics, it is applicable to cars, motorcycles, guns, computers, appliances, homes, furniture, and pretty much any thing else that has changed in the last 100 years.

    You have all of this new technology that goes into everything that is made today, manufacturing standards are much tighter now than ever before, computer aided product development, and design are more quickly optimizing designs, and getting better product to market faster, and more cost effective.

    I'm not a physicist, and I do not know the exact differences in the drivers of today VS the drivers of yesterday, but I do know what my ears like. I have always been a big fan of the JBL sound. Having owned several pair of more recent classic JBL’s L-65’s, L-166’s, L-36, and L-212’s, I definitely like what they do.

    But 6 years back my Dentist sold me an amp. When I went to his house he demoed it on a pair of Wilson Audio speakers. I immediately fell in love with the sound that I thought was from the amp. When I got the amp home I was surprised to learn that it made a big improvement in my system, but the Wilson speakers were in a completely different league. (I mean no dis-respect to JBL or any other speaker manufacturer). But the newer speakers should have sounded incredible as they cost new some $15,000. Vs the JBL speakers that sold for less than a 10th that in 1975 dollars.

    So that brings us to Ed’s Theorem #3, “Newer can always be alot better, but financially, there is a point of diminishing return”

    Great forums, and great information on this site!

    Ed

  15. #15
    Senior Member Steve Schell's Avatar
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    Victor, welcome to Lansing Heritage. I have enjoyed watching your ebay auctions for years. You have found and sold an amazing amount of ultra-rare gear; do you find it all in Chile?

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