Who Can Speak From Experience About Comparing Vintage Gear to Modern Equipment?

[vintage-chile]

Ed,
I insist about the great pedigree of my JBL projects.
No one of the JBL speakers you mentioned are
prepared to the new digital era dynamical requirements ( if you like digital I must add). The ones I was talking are made with premium JBL parts , and midrange horns. Them are better in a lot of senses than any Wilson audio's but WA also has something to say on other aspects. No one is better than the other in absolute terms.

But... the ones made with current 21 century TAD components and
Everest cabinets and the glorious Everest horns is in absolute terms , for my ears and tastes ,better than any WA .

Having in mind that TAD is the fruit of Pioneer pro series started by Mr. Locanthi designer of the best golden era JBL drivers.

Hope you can listen to a apir of TAD studio monitors , having in mind that
still the everest horns will outperform the TAD wood ones.

This is the age old story that plagues people in more than the area of electronics, it is applicable to cars, motorcycles, guns, computers, appliances, homes, furniture, and pretty much any thing else that has changed in the last 100 years.

You have all of this new technology that goes into everything that is made today, manufacturing standards are much tighter now than ever before, computer aided product development, and design are more quickly optimizing designs, and getting better product to market faster, and more cost effective.

I'm not a physicist, and I do not know the exact differences in the drivers of today VS the drivers of yesterday, but I do know what my ears like. I have always been a big fan of the JBL sound. Having owned several pair of more recent classic JBL’s L-65’s, L-166’s, L-36, and L-212’s, I definitely like what they do.

But 6 years back my Dentist sold me an amp. When I went to his house he demoed it on a pair of Wilson Audio speakers. I immediately fell in love with the sound that I thought was from the amp. When I got the amp home I was surprised to learn that it made a big improvement in my system, but the Wilson speakers were in a completely different league. (I mean no dis-respect to JBL or any other speaker manufacturer). But the newer speakers should have sounded incredible as they cost new some $15,000. Vs the JBL speakers that sold for less than a 10th that in 1975 dollars.

So that brings us to Ed’s Theorem #3, “Newer can always be alot better, but financially, there is a point of diminishing return”

Great forums, and great information on this site!

Ed

[vintage-chile]

The last 5 years are ones of the most funny and happy years of my life.
My partner and me had a 5 years hunting Saffari , having succes and joy on collecting vintage gear from Mexico to Chilean and Argentinean patagonia .
This started as a hobby , turned to a business. and ended on a
Indiana Jones adventure. Wow if I can only talk about it...

Sadly this gear is getting harder to find and the trips more and more scarce ... hope to list some new gear soon but we are seling almost all directly to big collectors.

Anyway I still have pics. on my database , at least 1 for each type we sold... if anyone is interested in pics. just ask.
.

Victor, welcome to Lansing Heritage. I have enjoyed watching your ebay auctions for years. You have found and sold an amazing amount of ultra-rare gear; do you find it all in Chile?

[Mr. Widget]

The ones I was talking are made with premium JBL parts , and midrange horns. Them are better in a lot of senses than any Wilson audio's but WA also has something to say on other aspects. No one is better than the other in absolute terms.

I think you are spot on here. Whether new or vintage every system is a set of compromises including the crazy expensive Wilsons, Rockport Technologies and others.

My partner and me had a 5 years hunting Saffari , having succes and joy on collecting vintage gear from Mexico to Chilean and Argentinean patagonia .
This started as a hobby , turned to a business. and ended on a
Indiana Jones adventure. Wow if I can only talk about it...

Maybe when you have time you could start a new thread and share some of your experiences... I am sure there are many of us who would love to hear about your travels.

Widget

[vintage-chile]

I having JBL woofers reconed by a pro-tech that is a JBL autorized
technician in my country ( the only one).
I knew that almost all the vintage 15" may be reconed with 2235 units , among the ones you cant is the 150-4c .
I asked him and be told that the reconing JBL Paragon suggestions ,
in a JBL service manual appears clearly that the 2235h will suit the LE15a . Maybe is a mistake but we did with good results.


Please check his site , and there appears my own projects pics.
and the Everest I mentioned as well.
http://www.parlantes.cl/diseno.html

cheers and congratulations for the nice site.

Please don't recone an LE15A or B with a 2235 recone kit...that would be a disaster and a waste of time, money and a recone kit. 136A yes....LE15 no....not interchangeable.

I just had to point this out...no other issues with your post.

[Steve Schell]

Victor, I hear the same story from vintage audio resellers here in the U.S.; most of the classic theatre gear has already been found, and new discoveries are few and far between. Of course the majority of the 1920s and 1930s equipment had already been discarded before the collecting began in earnest in the 1970s. One fellow told me that he figures he has been to every small town west of the Mississippi looking for equipment.

I'm sure that much of the fun is in the chase. My exploits were limited to exploring one closed theatre, and I remember my heart racing as we entered the projection booth. Someone had gotten there sooner, and all we found were the wall brackets for the 41/42/43 amplifier rack. The speaker field coil rheostat panel was still in place, as were the carbon arc lamps.

I'd sure like to hear more about that Indiana Jones adventure...

[boputnam]

Victor...

¿Es posible para más información sobre esto?

Muy interesante...

Y, ¿dónde en Chile? Apartamento o casa hermoso.
Trabajé en áreas norteñas - Region II a Region IV - minas cobre y oro

(and, do it in english? I'd hate to lose anything in my poor translation! )

[edgewound]

I having JBL woofers reconed by a pro-tech that is a JBL autorized
technician in my country ( the only one).
I knew that almost all the vintage 15" may be reconed with 2235 units , among the ones you cant is the 150-4c .
I asked him and be told that the reconing JBL Paragon suggestions ,
in a JBL service manual appears clearly that the 2235h will suit the LE15a . Maybe is a mistake but we did with good results.


Please check his site , and there appears my own projects pics.
and the Everest I mentioned as well.
http://www.parlantes.cl/diseno.html

cheers and congratulations for the nice site.

Hi Victor,

The later models of the Paragon used the 136H as the woofer and called out the 136H as a replacement should the LE15A not be repairable or available.

The 130A/2220 is also unique, and reconers do, unfortunately install 2235 kits into them...but it is plain wrong and it riles me to no end that the practice continues. It's in every JBL Factory Authorized Servicers field manual and covered in factory training... and on JBL's website



I hate to be the bearer of JBL incorrectness, but with all due respect and to keep the JBL Legacy intact and accurate....nowhere in the Service Manual does it say the LE15 can be reconed with a 2235 recone kit. I'm a factory authorized technician. The voice coils and motors are significantly different. You might contact the factory for confirmation....and check the manual.

[vintage-chile]

Please dont misunderstand me.
We have the 2235H as recomended when no original recone is available.
The goal is to get to life the woofer again when the cone has severe damage.
For instance I prefer to restore a broken ERPI Ta4181 cone than to
use a similar ( some Jensens out there fit since that unti was made by Jensen).
I think you are right and most of the vintage 15" baskets cant be reconed with the same unit.
Now my question is what we have to use then?
Is a 130a , Le15a decent recone on the market? I mean
better to adapt the 2235?
Thanks in advance.
victor.

Hi Victor,

The later models of the Paragon used the 136H as the woofer and called out the 136H as a replacement should the LE15A not be repairable or available.

The 130A/2220 is also unique, and reconers do, unfortunately install 2235 kits into them...but it is plain wrong and it riles me to no end that the practice continues. It's in every JBL Factory Authorized Servicers field manual and covered in factory training... and on JBL's website



I hate to be the bearer of JBL incorrectness, but with all due respect and to keep the JBL Legacy intact and accurate....nowhere in the Service Manual does it say the LE15 can be reconed with a 2235 recone kit. I'm a factory authorized technician. The voice coils and motors are significantly different. You might contact the factory for confirmation....and check the manual.

[vintage-chile]

The URL is from my friend Ariel Lagas ( www.parlantes.cl) , and the JBL speakers on the pics with 2370
horns are my own projects he designed a Xover for the
one that carries : 136a reconed with 2235h + Le175 +2405's +237a horn.
The other has changed from the pic to a : 2405+le85+H91 horn+tad1603 woofer + 3115+3105 X-overs. Each system has great perfomance beeing the last close to a studio monitor sound with the warmest females voices .... and the first one is a damn devil with awesome dynamics.
The other pics . is from a JBL everest modified with TAD componenents that are from my syster husband. That is my future dream but the entry price buying the everest cabs. and sell the components is too high for me.

Maybe you can help me with the Everest horns , anybody selling them alone??

If you need to ask Ariel in English I can do my best translating.


I live in Santiago Chile , in a nice house with my wife and kids you are welcome anytime to share a nice audio session when you come again to
this country.
Thanks.
Victor.

Victor...

¿Es posible para más información sobre esto?

Muy interesante...

Y, ¿dónde en Chile? Apartamento o casa hermoso.
Trabajé en áreas norteñas - Region II a Region IV - minas cobre y oro

(and, do it in english? I'd hate to lose anything in my poor translation! )

[edgewound]

Please dont misunderstand me.
We have the 2235H as recomended when no original recone is available.
The goal is to get to life the woofer again when the cone has severe damage.
For instance I prefer to restore a broken ERPI Ta4181 cone than to
use a similar ( some Jensens out there fit since that unti was made by Jensen).
I think you are right and most of the vintage 15" baskets cant be reconed with the same unit.
Now my question is what we have to use then?
Is a 130a , Le15a decent recone on the market? I mean
better to adapt the 2235?
Thanks in advance.
victor.

Yes Victor, I'm sorry...I must be misunderstanding you. The 2235H is a complete replacement driver for the LE15A...that is correct. Their recone kits are not interchangeable with each other though.

The original driver in the Paragon was the 150-4C. An E145 with a paper dome (150-4H) would be a great replacement...if you can find them. JBL Pro is still making recone kits for them. The later LE15A succeeded the 150-4 providing lower bass extension at the expense of efficiency. I wouldn't use a 130A or 2220 in a Paragon...not enough bass response.

LE15A can be reconed with C8R2215H...same recone kit.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

[vintage-chile]

Steve ,
The 41,42,43 rack dissambled is an experience we had a lot of times.
Several times that historic pieces were droped to the garbage and replaced with Altec and solid state equipment.

Respect Indi jones , we had to travel rain forest and rivers in Peru for instance to get to some very rare instalations in far cities.

A very fun situation was when we entered an .......( religion omited....)
church during the ceremony. There was a huge cross surrounded with lights ( like hundreds of 205 tubes LOL). We step behind the courtain to pickup an JBL/WEstrex setup. Cassually my foot crushed with the electric plugs and outlets , everything went dark but first the 205 tubes exploded
like fireworks ,and everyone was screaming .... the deal was cancelled but the memories dont.-

This pic. is from an Erpi 17 horn founded in Argentina's country.
It was collected with over 1000 kgms of other WECO stuff.
It was one of the best surprises ever , when we saw that elephantiasic
horn still mounted as it was 60 years ago

Victor, I hear the same story from vintage audio resellers here in the U.S.; most of the classic theatre gear has already been found, and new discoveries are few and far between. Of course the majority of the 1920s and 1930s equipment had already been discarded before the collecting began in earnest in the 1970s. One fellow told me that he figures he has been to every small town west of the Mississippi looking for equipment.

I'm sure that much of the fun is in the chase. My exploits were limited to exploring one closed theatre, and I remember my heart racing as we entered the projection booth. Someone had gotten there sooner, and all we found were the wall brackets for the 41/42/43 amplifier rack. The speaker field coil rheostat panel was still in place, as were the carbon arc lamps.

I'd sure like to hear more about that Indiana Jones adventure...

[vintage-chile]

victor.

Yes Victor, I'm sorry...I must be misunderstanding you. The 2235H is a complete replacement driver for the LE15A...that is correct. Their recone kits are not interchangeable with each other though.

The original driver in the Paragon was the 150-4C. An E145 with a paper dome (150-4H) would be a great replacement...if you can find them. JBL Pro is still making recone kits for them. The later LE15A succeeded the 150-4 providing lower bass extension at the expense of efficiency. I wouldn't use a 130A or 2220 in a Paragon...not enough bass response.

LE15A can be reconed with C8R2215H...same recone kit.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

[Steve Schell]

Victor, it sounds like they were using some expensive light bulbs! I hope that I am able to meet you someday and hear a few more of those stories. I really appreciate what you and others like you have done to rescue the surviving equipment from the golden era and place it in the hands of the preservationists/collectors.

[Tom Loizeaux]

I think the higher-end modern speakers can be quite respectible. Some of them are actually very good and surpass the JBL studio monitor classics in terms of accuracy, flat response and imaging.
But I think there is great satisfaction in restoring, or even preserving those JBL classics. There's pleasure in knowing the build quality of those classics surpasses most of what is made today and that many of these designs have played in front of countless mixing engineers and recording artists. Though most of the modern speakers use newer technology and employ the most recent audio concepts, some of these JBL classics still have the edge in dynamic range and sheer transient punch. Efficient 15 inch woofers, over-built compression drivers and pro-quality UHF componants can be a real pleasure when attempting to reproduce a live music experience in your home. Achieving this with only a modest investment makes it all that much more fulfilling!

Tom

[lucfm]

Hi Victor,

really interesting everest DD55000 modifications with TAD speakers : could you tell us more :
- wich TAD units have been used ? ( TD 2001 + TL 1603 ?)
- what LF-3dB point is reached with TAD woofer in the 8 cu. ft everest enclosure ( same vents ?)
- about the crossovers ( plans if available...) ; I couldn't find the everest clones you mentioned in Classic Audio Reproduction website.
- about the sonic differences between everest horn and TAD wood horns.

thanks for your answers.

Luc