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Thread: SACD - Discussion Thread

  1. #1
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave
    As far as I know there still is no digital output of SACD from any licensed player...
    I think I read about one of the uber high end units (Teac Esoteric maybe?) that had it's own outboard SACD DAC and did have an SACD digital out... I didn't pay attention since I'm not in the market for a SACD player that costs more than my car is worth....


    I mentioned car... will Bo start a new thread?


    Widget

  2. #2
    Senior Member JuniorJBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    I think I read about one of the uber high end units (Teac Esoteric maybe?) that had it's own outboard SACD DAC and did have an SACD digital out... I didn't pay attention since I'm not in the market for a SACD player that costs more than my car is worth....


    I mentioned car... will Bo start a new thread?


    Widget

    Yes it was an Esoteric P01/D01

    http://www.teac.com/esoteric/P-01.html

    And a very nice player.
    Always fun learning more.......

  3. #3
    Senior Member JuniorJBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    Ken, Have a look at some of the Musical Fidelity stuff or the Apogee MiniMe
    Ken
    I know you have bought a DAC already but I missed this discussion.
    I use a Musical Fidelity X DACv3 ( http://www.musicalfidelity.com/produ...lx/xdacv3.html ) And I really like it. I am processing output from a denon 3910 universal player. Yes as Mr.Widget put it it did help my digital sound stage to be more "analog" sounding. I got a great deal on my DAC from a friend who works in the business.
    The one you got should do about the same.
    Always fun learning more.......

  4. #4
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Here's what was first posted...

    ...then deleted. :dont-know

    Regardless, it was from the AudioTools.com website and seems a good resource for the topic.

    ------------------------
    SACD Hardware manufacturers
    Now in 2005 there are now basically 3 types of SACD capable players out there, with some minor variations. The Japanese companies in particular are pushing the Stereo SACD player as a replacement for the mid priced CD player, this is simply a music only player that will play any CD usually with upsampling capabilities and SACD disks but only have 2 channel output, most stereo players have proper DSD converters and filters and do not transcode to PCM, but that is not a rule. The Universal player is a DVD player that is mainly geared towards playing DVD video but also supports the playback of CD, DVDA, SACD, MP3 audio disks and usually VCD/SVCD video disks as well, with formats originating in the computer industry such as Xvid/Divx/MPEG4 and WM being common also. All of those players regardless of price range support multichannel playback but almost all of them do not have a proper 1 bit converters built in but rather convert the bitstream into a PCM format and thus loose the advantages of the DSD format, making the point of SACD rather pointless if I may say so, as convenience devices or for those that are primarily used as DVD players they are valid option, however do not expect the same sound quality when playing SACD disks. There are also hybrid DAC's out there that can work in both DSD and PCM mode but the sound quality in DSD mode is not as good as with a separate DAC but still preferavle to transcoding. Note that the universal player is not neccesearly universal, Sony and Philips along with an increasing number of other suppliers shun DVD-Audio and quite a few players do not support some video formats for a variety of reasons, mostly political it would appear. Thirdly there is the High End SACD player, those are players made by traditional high end audio companies that are aimed at audiophiles but vary somewhat in execution, most of these players only support 2 channel playback but some of them have multichannel and a few even have video outputs, but those can usually be switched out in keeping with the audiophile pretensions of the device.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  5. #5
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam
    ...then deleted. :dont-know
    This happens more and more. When I read, people quote somebody, and when I look for the original post. it's gone. What is going on? Is this what we can expect more of in the future???

  6. #6
    Senior Member Hoerninger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam
    ...then deleted. :dont-know
    Thanks for clearing up. I was confused because i could not find anymore (SEARCH) what i had printed out just before.
    ____________
    Regards
    Peter

  7. #7
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JuniorJBL
    Ken
    I know you have bought a DAC already but I missed this discussion.
    I use a Musical Fidelity X DACv3 ( http://www.musicalfidelity.com/produ...lx/xdacv3.html ) And I really like it. I am processing output from a denon 3910 universal player. Yes as Mr.Widget put it it did help my digital sound stage to be more "analog" sounding. I got a great deal on my DAC from a friend who works in the business.
    The one you got should do about the same.
    Will post my impressions this weekend. Picked up some cables today. Thanks for your input.

    Ken

  8. #8
    Senior Member Steve Schell's Avatar
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    My Cogent Loudspeakers partner Rich picked up a Denon DVD-3910 universal player for us in the past week (the unit that JuniorJBL mentioned). Street price for this rig is about a grand. I have been amazed at its sound. The CD playback is the best I've had here, though that's not saying a lot with my collection of swap meet CD players. Best part though is the sound of several DVD-As I bought a couple of years ago. Donald Fagen's The Nightfly, Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, Grover Washington Jr.'s Winelight all sound superb, much better than the CDs. There is much of the depth, smoothness and fine resolution of the LPs, without the vinyl noise.

    This thing is gonna make me finally break down and hook up some surround speakers, as the surround outputs sound really tasty on a quick listen. Maybe it will be like the good old days (late '70s), when I fiddled endlessly with a "time delay" unit.

  9. #9
    Senior Member JuniorJBL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Schell
    My Cogent Loudspeakers partner Rich picked up a Denon DVD-3910 universal player for us in the past week (the unit that JuniorJBL mentioned). Street price for this rig is about a grand. I have been amazed at its sound. The CD playback is the best I've had here, though that's not saying a lot with my collection of swap meet CD players. Best part though is the sound of several DVD-As I bought a couple of years ago. Donald Fagen's The Nightfly, Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, Grover Washington Jr.'s Winelight all sound superb, much better than the CDs. There is much of the depth, smoothness and fine resolution of the LPs, without the vinyl noise.

    This thing is gonna make me finally break down and hook up some surround speakers, as the surround outputs sound really tasty on a quick listen. Maybe it will be like the good old days (late '70s), when I fiddled endlessly with a "time delay" unit.

    Hi Steve
    I did like the sound of my 3910 but at first (compared to my Adcom GCD 750) it was not much of a comparison. Then I added the DAC and WOW. I could not however put the DAC on my Adcom because it did not have a digital out (but it had a digital in ). Never the less I had tried the Denon 3900 previously and I did not like it at all. Video was not very good and sound quality was average. The 3910 is a big improvement over the last model.
    I would really like a separate SACD player. I had a chance to buy a Sony SCD-1 (brand new) for $1800.00 and now I am kicking myself for not doing so as most players now (for a good one) are $3000.00 or better.
    Oh well I am sure I will survive!
    Always fun learning more.......

  10. #10
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    How do I know what my CD player is ? What I mean is- it can play SACD's and it's a 20bit unit. But is it a "true" SACD player- or does it simply have that compatibility??

    California Audio Labs ICON MK2 (with powerboss/burrbrown upgrade) Anyone know more about these?? Thanks.

  11. #11
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    How do I know what my CD player is ? What I mean is- it can play hdcd's and it's a 20bit unit. But is it a "true" hdcd player- or does it simply have that compatibility??

    California Audio Labs ICON MK2 (with powerboss/burrbrown upgrade) Anyone know more about these?? Thanks.
    All HDCD players have an indicator light that lights up when they are decoding HDCD. That technology is rather dead though... SACD and DVD-A made it rather obsolete.

    On the subject of the Adcom 750. It does play HDCDs, but even still... the Adcom playing an HDCD encoded disc doesn't sound as good as a non-HDCD player through a better DAC. I had both payers running for awhile to be able to continue decoding HDCDs... after a few times A/Bing them, there was no point in continuing using the HDCD equipped player.


    Widget

  12. #12
    Dang. Amateur speakerdave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Pachkowsky
    Hi all.

    The Dac1 got here late today (three days late). I only had a chance to play a couple of cd’s before writing this quick note.

    This is an amazing piece of equipment. I would have to say the initial impressions are very favorable. Had another forumite turn me on to Leonard Cohen’s “Ten New Songs” cd. It has become a standard disk for me to test with. The mix is incredible, with layered vocals that are hard to describe but stunning to hear.

    My system already did a great job reproducing the material but adding the Dac1 into the path, created stunning results. The soundstage became wider and less focused but in a positive way. Each of the vocalists had a more defined position within the wider soundstage. I can also confirm that the extreme low frequencies appear more full and tight. I also played the sacd version of Ray’s “Genius Loves Company” very briefly and noticed an improvement on it as well.

    I am going to re-analyze the room over the next few days using a sacd pink noise cd and will do more listening tests.

    Ken
    Ken, please read this carefully and stop deluding yourself and others about SACD and outboard DAC's.

    If you are using the Pioneer 578 and outputing digital to a DAC, playing SACD's as a way of getting higher definition signal is a completely pointless waste of time. Any difference you hear using them you will also hear with PCM CD's since the SACD signal is transposed to PCM before it is outputed (and in this machine even earlier). All of the improvement in sound is owing to the improved conversion of PCM AND bypassing the much below optimum analogue output stage of your player for a far superior analogue output section in the DAC.

    There is no digital output of DSD except for a few players that export it encoded and it cannot be decoded by most DAC's, but only by a few receiving units that are programmed to handle the special encoding.

    Regards,

    David

    PS,

    Your comments about the DAC should be on the other thread. THIS thread is about SACD only, please.

    PPS: Congratulations on getting another fine piece of equipment.

  13. #13
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave
    Ken, please read this carefully and stop deluding yourself and others about SACD and outboard DAC's.

    All of the improvement in sound is owing to the improved conversion of PCM AND bypassing the much below optimum analogue output stage of your player for a far superior analogue output section in the DAC.


    Regards,

    David

    PS,

    Your comments about the DAC should be on the other thread. THIS thread is about SACD only, please.
    David

    I hope you feel better? What is it that makes some of you feel the need to not just correct, but insult others in the process?

    My thread got moved and "in error" I quickly added a review to this one. I had said I would post my initial thoughts on the Dac1 on Monday. So, pardon me for the placement error.

    As far as the technical reason for the Dac sounding better you are no doubt right. I don't have a whole lot of understanding of the technology, but do know what sounds good. I looked forward to leaving a report on my initial impressions but you have succeeded in taking that away. This is definately becomming a place where you had better be carefull what you post or your going to get called on it. Whats becoming a common practice however is the insulting way its done. It's just not fun anymore.

    I think its time to find another place to hang my hat. I have made some good friends here and we can keep in touch via direct email.

    Adios

  14. #14
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speakerdave
    If you are using the Pioneer 578 and outputing digital to a DAC, playing SACD's as a way of getting higher definition signal is a completely pointless waste of time. Any difference you hear using them you will also hear with PCM CD's since the SACD signal is transposed to PCM before it is outputed (and in this machine even earlier). All of the improvement in sound is owing to the improved conversion of PCM AND bypassing the much below optimum analogue output stage of your player for a far superior analogue output section in the DAC.

    There is no digital output of DSD except for a few players that export it encoded and it cannot be decoded by most DAC's, but only by a few receiving units that are programmed to handle the special encoding.
    And this report is why this was parsed to it's own thread.

    I believe few had done the research on this, and might be pursuing the SACD without full knowledge. Thanks, speakerdave, for revisiting this topic.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  15. #15
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    What the hell is going on here.... ? I can't imagine that we are better served by being so uptight about protocol.

    Dave, I don't think Ken's post was delusional... unless I am mistaken I don't think he ever said that he was hearing sonic benefits with his new DAC while listening to a DSD bit stream. He may have placed it in what he thought was his original thread but was surprised to find it had been split... so, can't we all be allowed to make a simple mistake now and then. ...am I missing something significant here?

    ...and Bo are you suggesting that most of the people who post on these forums don't know the difference between PCM (red book CDs and DVD-A) and DSD (Sony's SACD format)? I am rather confused by your post syntaxman...

    Overall though the tone of these last couple of posts is just plain whacked... this ain't no peer review board.


    Widget

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