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Thread: new "synthesis 3 array"

  1. #1
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    new "synthesis 3 array"

    JBL has announced the updated Synthesis 3 Array, using speakers from the Array Series. Apparently though, the system consists of (4) HTPS400 subwoofers. The HTPS400 is THX Ultra certified, and according to the .pdf its -3db@28hz.

    Does anyone know it having multiple subwoofers extends the frequency response? More SPL at lower freq. Is that why they use four subwoofers? They also seem to do this with the other Synthesis series: Syn Hercules, 4 Subs ; Syn 4 subs; Syn ONE 2 subs.

    Are they just doing this more SPL at say 30HZ or for lower range say below 20Hz.

    Honestly -3db@28Hz seems unimpressive for a $35,000 system.
    Especially when other subs nowadays seem to go much lower. The subs alone are $2000 x 4 = $8000. Seems to me JBL could make a Godzilla-King Kong-earthquake subwoofer for that much. Hey don't get mad, just an opinion.



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    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    It is difficult to get a good bass response in many listening rooms and home theaters. If you use four subs it can make it easier to achieve quality bass without the usual room modes causing far too much bass in some locations with almost no apparent bass in others. There are a number of white papers and articles by Dr. Floyd Toole of Harman International describing this. If you do some searches on these discussion forums you'll find many interesting links.


    Widget

  3. #3
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    I believe that in certain acoustic spaces it's just not possible to get lower than a certain frequency and have it be usable without it bleeding or spilling out to adjacent areas...like the neighbor's house...or that obnoxious pounding from that other kid's car next to you at the stop light and you can't hear your own system.

    Often-times it just make more practical sense to have bass shakers installed in your seating to take care of things below say 25 hz if you really feel the need to "feel" the bass anyway. That way you don't risk too much SPL in the room to cause more structural wear on things....like your ears...not too mention your house.

    Unfortunately...many buyers are spec driven and will buy the product that has the most impressive printed specs, that might not necessarily be true or even useful.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

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    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    The room runs the show

    The major restriction for low bass in most listening rooms is the size of that room. Mine is 24 x 15 x 8 and nothing below 24hz will propagate. There are room calculators available on the web; I think a handy one in excel lived on the Harmon white papers web page, but it is down right now.

    The other thing is, most people who have heard a test cd are not concerned with anything under 35hz for music, only movies. Twenty hz is just about inaudible, and no musical fundamentals exist down there. OK, the largest pipe in a few organs. Otherwise, only synthetic "music."

    Clark in Peoria
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  5. #5
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista47
    The other thing is, most people who have heard a test cd are not concerned with anything under 35hz for music, only movies. Twenty hz is just about inaudible, and no musical fundamentals exist down there. OK, the largest pipe in a few organs. Otherwise, only synthetic "music."

    Clark in Peoria
    That is mostly true... OK, I have no idea what most people think, but typically music doesn't contain deep bass. This was absolutely true back in the analog days as tape and albums just don't handle frequencies below 30Hz real well.

    Not just synthetic, modern, etc. types of music... if you listen to the last cut on Sapphire Blue, by Larry Carlton you'll hear an "acoustic" guitar with pickup on the left channel and harmonica on the right... and there is a wee bit of synthesizer in the background... along with an extremely lively and dynamic guitar sound there are intense subharmonics that are more pressure waves than acoustic... it is kind of audio pyrotechnics, but it is certainly very cool... and if you are using a speaker that plays deep into the 20Hz zone you won't get to experience all that they put on the album.


    Widget

  6. #6
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Often-times it just make more practical sense to have bass shakers installed in your seating to take care of things below say 25 hz if you really feel the need to "feel" the bass anyway. That way you don't risk too much SPL in the room to cause more structural wear on things....like your ears...not too mention your house.
    Have you ever tried a demo with them??? I did at one of the HE shows Stereophille does. It's not even close to real deal. There nothing like having the whole room energized. It comes through the couch naturally. Doesn't feel right without feeling the pressure over your whole body. I am not talking crazy high levels either. Certainly less than a movie at THX level.

    Rob

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    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robh3606
    Have you ever tried a demo with them??? I did at one of the HE shows Stereophille does. It's not even close to real deal. There nothing like having the whole room energized. It comes through the couch naturally. Doesn't feel right without feeling the pressure over your whole body. I am not talking crazy high levels either. Certainly less than a movie at THX level.

    Rob
    Yes I have demo'd...didn't say I liked it...just sometimes more practical
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Warning - off topic - Musical Rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    That is mostly true... OK, I have no idea what most people think, but typically music doesn't contain deep bass. This was absolutely true back in the analog days as tape and albums just don't handle frequencies below 30Hz real well.

    Not just synthetic, modern, etc. types of music... if you listen to the last cut on Sapphire Blue, by Larry Carlton you'll hear an "acoustic" guitar with pickup on the left channel and harmonica on the right... and there is a wee bit of synthesizer in the background... along with an extremely lively and dynamic guitar sound there are intense subharmonics that are more pressure waves than acoustic... it is kind of audio pyrotechnics, but it is certainly very cool...

    Widget
    Well, I will admit to being an old fart, but my musical tastes often drive people out of the room. Arnold Schoenberg, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Sam Rivers, Jimmy Lyons, Sun Ra, Jan Garbarek, Maria Pia De Vito. I love the sax "solo" in Lost Highway. A memory I keep close is having worked twice with John Cage. I'm no musical prude.

    What I was getting at is that most music below 35 - 40 hz is produced with synthesizers, and without musical genius behind it such music sounds synthetic, and that is not a compliment. Caoineadh Cu Chulainn from Riverdance, for instance, is done well, and it moves me greatly. There, the instruments are handled with equal grace and it works quite nicely.

    I'll go out on a limb here and state that IMO the problem with most music presently made below 35 hz is that it is being produced by really bad musicians or non musicians without a clue. I don't care if an artist uses his GI tract to make music as long as the talent is there. If it isn't, a Selmer Paris sax or a Lloyd Loar mandolin won't help. Something that never changes through the years: copping an attitude, working on your cool, looking good on camera or sampling a phenominal talent like Jamie Jamerson has never been a substitute for having musical, or any kind of artistic talent of one's own. I'm sure I would enjoy the work you cited, but it would not be representative of the genre.

    Moderators, feel free to move this to the music or the off topic forum, or to nuke it as needed.

    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  9. #9
    robpatton
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    Upcoming Progress

    JBL is making great advances in the areas of multiple subwoofer equalization and utilization. This will be the next substantial advancement in the HT market. It will switch from trying to force one or two 18" subs into submission to coaxing 4-6 smaller subwoofers to perform better and eq flat more easily. Keep your eyes peeled for more info and equipment in this area from JBL.
    Rob

  10. #10
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    Actually we've been doing that in the custom realm since the late 70's but it will be nice to see an official package from JBL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista
    I'll go out on a limb here and state that IMO the problem with most music presently made below 35 hz is that it is being produced by really bad musicians or non musicians without a clue...
    Agreed! A lot of it isn't even the musicians at all!! In fact, I'll go further out on that limb with you by saying recording "engineers" take way too much creative liberty these days. Most of it is done at the very sake of true musicianship, but I will reserve a place for the quality few that make beautiful music in the <30Hz realm.

    Widget's post reminds me of the first time I heard Mickey Hart's first Planet Drum CD- the one in which he used some of the custom made instruments used on the Apocolypse Now soundtrack. It won several recording awards including a Golden Ear. One of the instruments was a huge steel I-beam (I think 25'?) with a piano string stretched to a low B. He also incorporated digital sub harmonics, really deep under-tuned kettle drums, actual caves, conch horns, etc. It's a classic. My point is- he worked in these digi bass notes around the 30Hz mark on a couple of tracks. It works beautifully and it isn't over done or a big part of the songs' driving force. It was subtle and ..well...musical. Many artists have used this approach to make an impact and when in the hands of a world class musician- with control over the recording- it usually comes out sounding good.

    A large part of the modern Reggae sound is utilizing the sub bass on the actual instrument. You can certainly hear the bassist playing notes and yet the signal is subharmonized. It can be somewhat musical, and if I played it in my car- it would sound like ghetto thump.

    However, HT is a totally diffferent ballgame!! Who can deny the impact an explosion makes when felt at well below 30Hz? It's amazing!

    I have 2235's for my music- because I feel it goes low enough to do the job and they sound very musical. I wouldn't dream of using them in a HT set up though...



    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Actually we've been doing that in the custom realm since the late 70's...

    L212?

  12. #12
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    That was the start of it all yes. JBL started offering the B212 as a separate purchase so running multiples wasn't a problem. On the custom side, JBL was unofficially recommending sealed subs using the 124/2203 and 136/2231. They were "ok" for the time.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    That was the start of it all yes. JBL started offering the B212 as a separate purchase so running multiples wasn't a problem. On the custom side, JBL was unofficially recommending sealed subs using the 124/2203 and 136/2231. They were "ok" for the time.
    Intersting. I didn't know the B212 was offered out like that. I was under the impression most of them ended back up at JBL for repair and used elsewhere. They seem very hard to find. I see a lot of L212 sats, but rarely the sub.

    I guess JBL's recommendations (sealed subs) were based on the pole piece issue the B212 had(??)

    I love history, and if nothing else- the L212 is a very historical thing indeed! Thanks!

    And..."ok" is an understatement for the 70's. In their day- they were probably very nice to have!

  14. #14
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    The B212 had several issues.

    First was the built-in amplifier. It really wasn't up to the task of driving a big 4-inch coiled JBL. A nice external amplifier such as a GFA-545 coupled with a custom built active filter improved the situation 100%. I also quickly learned to run a pair of them.

    Second was the mass controlling ring. As with the 124, 2203, 136, 2231, and 2235, the mass controlling ring in the 121 limited xMech.

    A third issue would be the separation of the cone from the voice coil. This is not uncommon for all those old transducers when used in sealed boxes and continuously driven hard.

    For those who take care of their gear and utilize proper room placement the mass controlling ring and voice coil separation issues almost never occur.

    I've run 121A's and 121H's since their initial releases and I have yet to destroy one. In fact, of all these transducers the only pair I ever destroyed were 2235H's.

  15. #15
    Senior Member spkrman57's Avatar
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    That must have been some intense levels playing to do that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    I've run 121A's and 121H's since their initial releases and I have yet to destroy one. In fact, of all these transducers the only pair I ever destroyed were 2235H's.

    I did notice when I had my 4430's that I liked them better when I added the 2242. The bottom end really filled out much better.

    But then again the 2242 makes anything sound better!

    Ron

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