Enjoy the new crossover. You no doubt will.
Ken
Enjoy the new crossover. You no doubt will.
Ken
So another biamp convert! Those woofers sound good with no passives in line. Glad you like it. Might be "beer o clock" for a while though as you go through your CD's. It was a little intimidating for me too the first time but once you have done it it's not so bad.
Rob
One thing I feel should be mentioned: If the crossovers are wired the same in both cabinets (almost certainly they ARE), the drivers are connected the same in both cabinets, and the problem persisted, then it leaves one of three possibilities IMHO:Originally Posted by invstbiker
1:One of the woofers has the red and the black push terminals swapped
2:One of the woofers has been reconed with a non-standard aftermarket coil (NOT a JBL recone kit).
3:One of the amplifiers is inverting phase from input signal to power amp output. It can happen! Could be a phase invert switch flipped on the amp, or one amp was altered. Your Phonic phase checker can help you ferret this out. If nothing else, swap speakers on the same amp and see if the other speaker does this too.
Regarding "JBL polarity convention", almost all of the older JBL woofers (and the systems they are used in) ARE "reverse polarity". The woofer goes in with + to red on both the woofer itself AND when applied to the input terminals on the back of the cabinet. This is the reverse of "absolute phase", meaning positive voltage should create positive air pressure by the woofer -not negative pressure (vacuum).
The simple fix (and correct one IMHO) is to connect your amplifier speaker cables with amp Red to speaker Black terminal on BOTH JBL cabinets. This gets 'em in sync with the world.
Otherwise, if you ever add other speaker systems that are "Normal phase convention" to the mix, you'll have the same confusing headache all over again.
IT'S ALL GOOD NOWOne thing I feel should be mentioned: If the crossovers are wired the same in both cabinets (almost certainly they ARE), the drivers are connected the same in both cabinets, and the problem persisted, then it leaves one of three possibilities IMHO:
1:One of the woofers has the red and the black push terminals swapped
2:One of the woofers has been reconed with a non-standard aftermarket coil (NOT a JBL recone kit).
3:One of the amplifiers is inverting phase from input signal to power amp output. It can happen! Could be a phase invert switch flipped on the amp, or one amp was altered. Your Phonic phase checker can help you ferret this out. If nothing else, swap speakers on the same amp and see if the other speaker does this too.
Regarding "JBL polarity convention", almost all of the older JBL woofers (and the systems they are used in) ARE "reverse polarity". The woofer goes in with + to red on both the woofer itself AND when applied to the input terminals on the back of the cabinet. This is the reverse of "absolute phase", meaning positive voltage should create positive air pressure by the woofer -not negative pressure (vacuum).
The simple fix (and correct one IMHO) is to connect your amplifier speaker cables with amp Red to speaker Black terminal on BOTH JBL cabinets. This gets 'em in sync with the world.
Otherwise, if you ever add other speaker systems that are "Normal phase convention" to the mix, you'll have the same confusing headache all over again.
"It only costs 80% extra to go first class"
I thought that was mentioned, but maybe not - these have not been reconed, I believe.
As Giskard posted a few years back, we all know JBL suck - it's the rest of the old world that had the polarity wrong! But it doesn't matter at all in bass reproduction or frequency response - that is a misconception.Regarding "JBL polarity convention", almost all of the older JBL woofers (and the systems they are used in) ARE "reverse polarity". The woofer goes in with + to red on both the woofer itself AND when applied to the input terminals on the back of the cabinet. This is the reverse of "absolute phase", meaning positive voltage should create positive air pressure by the woofer - not negative pressure (vacuum).
The simple fix (and correct one IMHO) is to connect your amplifier speaker cables with amp Red to speaker Black terminal on BOTH JBL cabinets. This gets 'em in sync with the world.
Now then it DOES matter. But, these are loyal JBL fans and very few pair cabinets of other brands, or even multiple JBL without checking inter-cabinet element polarity.
-----
Doods - having two threads on this same topic is exhausting. I'm getting worse callouses than my guitar player...
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
Correct re-foam only. Shoulda booted that battery redux thread when you had the chance...I thought that was mentioned, but maybe not - these have not been reconed, I believe.
Doods - having two threads on this same topic is exhausting. I'm getting worse callouses than my guitar player...
"It only costs 80% extra to go first class"
It's a sine wave, man. What do you think the woofers are doing half the time, either way...?
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
I understand what you are saying.It's a sine wave, man. What do you think the woofers are doing half the time, either way...?
Best way I can describe it is this:
Whan I was a kid, I came upon an abandoned TV Set. Typical boy, I had to mess with it. Eventually, I smashed the picture tube. The implosion of the tube caused by the vacuum inside made a unique sound that I have never forgotten. It was competely different than, say, a firecracker or a gunshot.
Or, a drum set? The attack of a wind instrument? The human voice?
If you don't hear the difference, it doesn't matter. If you do...
The only time I've noticed this, is on the Kit. If the mains are out-of-phase with the kick, snare, toms, there can be cancellations - but these are wave form cancellations, not an issue of whether it sounds "real".
I know some guys in monitorworld reverse phase on the kick mic (like a SM52), to feed it back to the drummer boy so his wedge is phased with the skin motion. Some say they can hear the kick better - that the wedge is not being cancelled by the kick wave form. I don't know. Best to keep the artists happy, though...
But otherwise, unless there is wave-form cancellation...
Actually these sounds you refer to are dominantly in the frequency range of the MF (3-way cabinet) or compression driver / horn (two-way cabinet). In these cabinets, elements are phased differently than the LF. So, even if, in your "absolute polarity" world these sounds would be coming from elements that are moving in opposing directions to the woofer cone, i.e., their diaphragms would be going in on (+) signal, when the woofer cone is excurting (is that a word...?
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
Not on gigs- on my Martin-Logans here at home. Hell I've got enough things to handle at a gig without giving any thoughts to that...
Today is the first day I've been able to recheck the phasing issue I previously had, now that I'm bi-amped. Here's what I have setup. The phase linear is running the top end and the Macs are running the 2231's only. Phonic testing the top end only, both left and right are in phase. Running the Macs only, the left channel only is not in phase (again)..I swapped the leads on the back of the left speaker, bottom end only and it now reads in phase. I am no longer running spliced speaker wire. The only other thing I added was the Ashly Xover/. Since I'm headed to SD soon, I'm gonna just leave it 'cause I don't have any more time to fool with it. Actually, it sounds fantastic, so I believe I'm just gonna leave it, period. Pain in the ass it is...
"It only costs 80% extra to go first class"
Man, I wish you'd call those "Mc's" - I keep thinking there is something Mackie in there...
Overall this is good news.
1 - The cabinets are consistent, it seems.
2 - You can hear the impact(s) of running two cabinets out-of-phase.
3 - You are liking the improvements.
There must be some connection wired wrong, is all. Try and label everything - both ends - and double-check that none of the balanced cables are confusing Pin2 and Pin3 - that can happen...
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
OK, How 'bout MacDaddys'...Man, I wish you'd call those "Mc's" - I keep thinking there is something Mackie in there...
Overall this is good news.
1 - The cabinets are consistent, it seems.
2 - You can hear the impact(s) of running two cabinets out-of-phase.
3 - You are liking the improvements.
There must be some connection wired wrong, is all. Try and label everything - both ends - and double-check that none of the balanced cables are confusing Pin2 and Pin3 - that can happen...
1. Cabs are consistant
2. I cannot hear any difference
3. I'm running the leads backassward on the left 2231 only as my phonic tells me this is in phase.
XLR cables, maybe something there, but I'd have to rip the whole thing apart and right now, no can do. When I get back from Sturgis, in Sept, I'll give that a try....Thx BO
"It only costs 80% extra to go first class"
Here's my newest revelation regarding the above referenced title. I just went bi-amped and love it. I have a couple of questions and comments. On the 4343's, the bass driver (2231A) is a negative transducer meaning when I apply the battery test, the cone moves out when the + battery is contacted with the - terminal on the transducer. This we know. Q? When using an external Xover and switching to external crossover on the rear of the speaker, is the bass driver isolated from the internal crossover? I have swapped leads on both bass drivers and now have the + lead going to the - terminal on the speaker and so forth. My Phonic Phase tester (EBAY $350.00) playing just the bass only, one channel at a time tells me that my bass transducers are both IN PHASE. Testing the top end only, one channel at a time again I am IN PHASE whereby + is + and - is -. So now, my whole system is IN PHASE per Phonic. When I switch the leads on the bass drivers only whereby + is + and - is -, the Phonic reads Not in phase. Does anybody else have this situation?
"It only costs 80% extra to go first class"
Yes, completely. Check the schematic - you'll see how.
bo
"Indeed, not!!"
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