Need help with bass response

[Mr. Widget]

I'm starting to get confused...

I got confused awhile back too...

All this phase/polarity stuff shouldn't be all that complicated. Has anyone mentioned that some amps are inverting and others are not? This may have already been looked into or not... and it may or may not be relevant. I hope you get this whole thing figured out.


Widget

[invstbiker]

I got confused awhile back too...

All this phase/polarity stuff shouldn't be all that complicated. Has anyone mentioned that some amps are inverting and others are not? This may have already been looked into or not... and it may or may not be relevant. I hope you get this whole thing figured out.


Widget

I'm confident that I have it all correct now. All my top end is "IN PHASE" and rather than having the woofer "OUT of PHASE" as JBL intended it, I have that "IN PHASE" as well. I get better bass response this way. I'd rather have it all "IN PHASE" rather than a combo plan. Thank You

[boputnam]

Do you still have that Phonic thingy out?

I know they're all the same now - as your preference - but I'm curious what all the elements read now...

If they are all (+), then you must not have wired the "tops" with positive to black, like edge posted.

[invstbiker]

Bo, All transducers read IN PHASE +

Remember, the only leads that I reversed are the LF, the top end is still +=+ and -=-

If you swap your low end leads, your bass will really pop. Just a preference at this point. I'm still listening...

[boputnam]

Bo, All transducers read IN PHASE +

Remember, the only leads that I reversed are the LF, the top end is still +=+ and -=-

If you swap your low end leads, your bass will really pop.

Got it - exactly what I thought.

The positive to Red or Black doesn't matter so long as you are in the privacy of your own home and not pairing with anything. You can imagine the struggle internal within JBL when they decided to go with the "AES standard" which post-dated their pioneering work... .Anyway, if you are going positive to Red on the tops you're just "old school" () - there's no difference in response.

I don't think I'll "reverse" anything. I'm (so far... ) sticking with the age-old design.

As I told you by pm - in response to your donation to LH site!! - it's really cool you're happy with the outcome. We've all learn a lot in the sharing, here. Thanks, Widget for merging these - it maintains the continuity of the project.

[invstbiker]

It's been a hell of a ride...I'm just happy with the outcome and the fact that I'm not having to deal with other brands all mixed in. That would really create havoc in my brain...I'm stickin' with the vintage gear.

[edgewound]

Bo...

Remember that when biamping the 4345 with 24dB/oct, there is 360 degrees which is equal to zero... phase shift....whereas there is 180 degrees of phase shift with the internal 12dB/oct passive filter. When running the system in full passive the internal wiring color code takes care of the system's driver phasing...whether it be connected to the amp positive to black for the compression pulse first or positive to red for the rarefaction pulse first. It does sound different and feel different whether you get the compression or rarefaction first, and will also react to the room differently based on placement and room modes....but you already knew this .

[boputnam]

....but you already knew this .

You bet!

But, it's not that simple. I've never run these passive. The factory active crossover - the 5234A which I used before this one - has -18dB slopes (but you already knew this... ). So, I'm closer to the "factory" passive phase than your post suggests.

It does sound different and feel different whether you get the compression or rarefaction first

Although this we differ on, in home applications. Live (where it's my gear...), everything is AES convention (that is, pin2 (+), and woofs out on (+) ).

-----

Hell, I'm not even sure you can easily tell in many (most...?) live settings, either. There is so much interaction with the room, the ampitheater, the crowd, wind, walls, bleachers, whatever. Furthermore, with today's time-alignment in the system, and then the delay on the mains to "position" them with the Kit/backline, I just don't know. I know we'd all like to notice a difference - but will you, 10m, 20m, 30m out?

Someday I should soundcheck with the polarity normal and reversed, and test if we can really tell anything, honest A/B. There's never a great deal of time, but, someday...

[boputnam]

So, edgewound, maybe you're still watching? The question of live sound, brings a question:

You've probably worked on a great number of Fender amps. And, some have (D-, E- and) K-series woofs in-place of the original. How are they wired? Do you reverse their connections so they are cone out on (+)? That would be consistent with the kick and mic pulse. Just curious...

[edgewound]

So, edgewound, maybe you're still watching? The question of live sound, brings a question:

You've probably worked on a great number of Fender amps. And, some have (D-, E- and) K-series woofs in-place of the original. How are they wired? Do you reverse their connections so they are cone out on (+)? That would be consistent with the kick and mic pulse. Just curious...

Yes.

[boputnam]

Thought so.

I've not yet found one done that way - but I do suggest it to the artist. When they aren't I just switch the polarity on the mic input...

[Chas]

Hey, I've just had a fundraising idea for the LHS. Spend a day with your favourite LHS member....$500.00 donation . A day with Bo would be fun being his roadie....Is that the correct term?

Sorry, if this is off topic, but I think the polarity question is solved. By the way: I always get confused when people use the term phase instead of polarity. After all, you can have identical phase, but opposite polarity, right?

[edgewound]

Hey, I've just had a fundraising idea for the LHS. Spend a day with your favourite LHS member....$500.00 donation . A day with Bo would be fun being his roadie....Is that the correct term?

Sorry, if this is off topic, but I think the polarity question is solved. By the way: I always get confused when people use the term phase instead of polarity. After all, you can have identical phase, but opposite polarity, right?

Right...phase is concerning the time arrival of the drivers soundwaves and coherence with one another with regards to comb filtering, cancellations or good, accurate summation. Polarity just means how the wires are connected...which could turn into a loooong discussion on crossover design, physical alignment of the voice coils of each driver, cabinet design, etc....a blending of both art and science....kind of like a fine chef's creations...not everyone will agree on flavor

[B&KMan]

Hello with all, I arrive at the end of this other eternal problem of the polaity and the phase in the 4343... My experiment of the 2231 shows clearly that it has better an extension of the high frequencies if the impulse is negative (as prescribed by the manufacturer) of course, you can find that doubtful as method to stretch the band upwards but it is nevertheless the approach of JBL. thus if you to use the networks passive or credit of JBL and fact for this enclosure, you will definitively have a better integration by respecting the convention of connections of origin. However, your 2231 was certainly reconed, but the guy who did it by error "corrected the polarity" according to usual standards'??

manys other threads is builded on this question...

[B&KMan]

I wanted simply to add another information... The integration of the delay of the 2405 in the 4343 is bad it is necessary to put a delay of 0.613 ms approximately. If you use an active network which allow it, that could big improve realism of the sound...