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Thread: Biamp crossover question

  1. #61
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Ok! That's easy! Shazam!
    Ahso....American market not worthy, Giskardsan
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

  2. #62
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Sorry to have to ask, but I'm new at this, Giskard. What are they, are they available in North America and do they cost less than my house?

    OK, the rest of the images have loaded and my ignorant questions have been answered. Thank you!

    I suppose they have that darn oriental market bloated midrange.

    Clark in Peoria
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  3. #63
    Obsolete
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    I think they're like $7,000 each.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Hey, if those are current, Northridge has JBL blue paint they could sell us.
    Sorry to go


    Clark
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  5. #65
    Steve Gonzales
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    Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    I (personally) would want to know what the room was doing (via software) before I introduced such a complex system.
    Widget's notion of letting your ears be the ultimate judge (while correct) seems only valid if your ears have been trained to know proper sound.
    How would you know what the room was doing without the system in the first place, you gotta have it first to measure what it's doing in the room?. Secondly, if you've got enough of an idea about what you want it to sound like, within the system's limitations, you aim for that. Ultimately, proper sound is what agrees with your own personal taste regardless if it satisfies strict professional set up protocal/ criteria or not. Am I saying that Joe Blose should go out and wing it, NO! I've had some good measure of sucess so far, I have Dave Brink in my corner and that accounts for a good portion of my success, combined with about 25-30years of experience with JBL systems and how they do and should sound - to me--.

    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    We all know that amps perform differently- depending on the volume. Now multiply that times four. Factor in the extra protection that a quad amp set up usually requires, the symbiotic relationship your preamp/amp takes on- and you might be so far removed form the original signal (sounding "good" prehaps) that nothing really matters.
    I've found that an electronic crossover is extremely flexible when it comes to adjusting/matching the different output levels and the ability to adjust the crossover frequencies is outstanding also. Again,I am not promoting the idea that Joe Blose "wing it", I just want to respond to what I think is much too scary sounding for those also contemplating a fully active system.

    Quote Originally Posted by hapy._.face
    I can see biamping - but I would stay away from tri/quad with full active unless I really knew what I was doing.
    While not as many amps are being used, I think that one should know just as much while contemplating a bi-amp system too. I don't really see that much difference. You still have to consider levels, the room and equipment, basically, just the same. We have the good fortune of expert advice and experience here to lean on and learn from, it's gonna be okay

  6. #66
    Steve Gonzales
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ducatista47
    Steve, 2245H's are plentiful, new to basket cases. If it is experimenting you are after, nevermind. But you have most of a 4345 pair in hand. Go 18" instead of 15".
    But bottom line, I think you will like your project much better in the end if you use the 2245 and 2122 drivers. What a potent combo they are.

    Clark in Peoria
    Thank you Clark, it has definately crossed my mind

  7. #67
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Steve,

    Rob raises some good points.

    This is not an exact science and in the end you have to trust the ears and not necessarily your own.

    Most active analgue crossovers only give you one slope, typically 18 or 24 db these days and variable frequencies.

    You really need to try 6/12/18 and if available vary the Q factor or knee if the corner frequency. I have built such a unit but it is very complex.

    The point is though none of this is a plug and play situation like putting an LE85 into a L220 and expecting it to be quantum leap in improvement unless you strike it lucky. More likely the L220 sucked period and any change was a good change.

    In my own experience what I first thought was perfection as a self designed crossover was finally proven to be crap compared to a professional effort from the likes of G.T. I mean even the drivers are carefully chosen to work together and some drivers like the 2122H in the 4345 were specifically engineered for the task at hand ..not a re worked LE10 like the 2121 in the 4343. Hence I don't waste my time pretending to be a loudspeaker designer but rather develop an appreciation for fine JBL vintage designs like the 4345.

    I must admit though it is fun trying and that is where the satisfaction , the passion and enjoyment of rolling your own system comes into play. But don't kid yourself you have got it right first pop...particulary a 4 way.

    If you could borrow a digital unit from a member and find the right mix of slope and crossover point then buy or make up a customised unit from Marchland that would make an excellent setup.

  8. #68
    Steve Gonzales
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    This is not an exact science and in the end you have to trust the ears and not necessarily your own.
    I'm trying to figure out what this means Ian. What I hope it means is that I might need someone else's opinion when diagnosing or tweaking the system initially, that may be, we'll see. I trust my own ears to tell me what I like with the final settings. I appreciate the advice, but have to admit that some of it sounds like preparing for a trip to Mars, rather than adding 10" woofer-etc, and I don't see it that way. I've now decided to go full active 4 way, from a full active 3way. Playing around with a mix of odd and even order slopes will probably not happen for a good long while, but it is nice to know that there are plenty of configurations to explore, thank you. There are known enclosure volumes/ construction techniques and T/S parameters for the drivers. I've got good baseline information, it should be fun.

    P.S.-BTW, I've been very careful about my stated expectations, I want to reinforce the fact that I never implied or meant to imply that this is a cake walk.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Gonzales
    I appreciate the advice, but have to admit that some of it sounds like preparing for a trip to Mars, .
    Actually Mars is one of my favourite gettaways and quite romantic..just ask Arny.(Total Recall)

    Semi seriously, its all meant to be fun and of course it all depends how serious you wanna be. And another set of years and a glass of Red makes it all worthwhile!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Gonzales
    How would you know what the room was doing without the system in the first place, you gotta have it first to measure what it's doing in the room?

    There are acoustical properties already at work in the room before you put in a quad amp system or even pass gas. You can address the room- all by itself.

    Secondly, if you've got enough of an idea about what you want it to sound like, within the system's limitations, you aim for that.
    ...if that's your goal. Great!
    If your audio goals are to maintain the integrity of the original recording- you aim for that.


    Ultimately, proper sound is what agrees with your own personal taste regardless if it satisfies strict professional set up protocal/ criteria or not.
    ...I guess. I know a few recording engineers that would vomit at hearing this. The imperical system of R&D employs guys with golden ears- trained pros. These guys get their hearing tested regularly- and know what to listen for- it's a full time occupation. You are totally right, though- it's ultimately the end user's choice should anyone choose to butcher a perfectly good recording in the interest of 'sounding good'. I don't think you'll be doing that- but this Joe Blose guy you refer too...

    If I want to build my own house and maintain the architectural dicipline of the neighborhood- I should probably hire a pro. If I want to build a get away cottage in the sticks- I can draw up any plans I like. Both are functionable dwellings; One is certainly proper.



    I've found that an electronic crossover is extremely flexible when it comes to adjusting/matching the different output levels and the ability to adjust the crossover frequencies is outstanding also. Again,I am not promoting the idea that Joe Blose "wing it", I just want to respond to what I think is much too scary sounding for those also contemplating a fully active system.
    I think if you invest in the highest quality active xover you can financially stomach (probably should build it yourself) and integrate variable slope rates, model it to the drivers you are using (not a generic "off the shelf"), get some input on your room acoustics- set the knobs to compensate for it all- and keep it that way- you'll be lovin' life! In theory- an amp for each driver is ideal.

    While not as many amps are being used, I think that one should know just as much while contemplating a bi-amp system too. I don't really see that much difference.
    OK- perhaps for you. Most people don't understand that amps have unique personalities. Every position on the volume knob has an influence on that personality. The relationship the amp has with the load, and the variables of using four amps in a four way load all set to their respective levels- controlled by a main volume- gets infinately more complex with a quad system.

    The cost of operating 4 amps gets expensive, too. I hope that for all the effort and expensive- you arrive at a point where you can say it was worth it. It is a big leap- but I know you can pull it off, Steve!



    OK- now a point off topic:
    Isn't it interesting how we need at least two additional posts just to explain what we meant in our first one? Isn't it also interesting the way we defend our positions- yet we come accross as attacking another's intentions? If this were speech- we would be making fun jabs and laughing. In text- it's like a gauntlet has been waved. Strange stuff this is...

  11. #71
    norealtalent
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    ... More likely the L220 sucked period and any change was a good change.

    In my own experience what I first thought was perfection as a self designed crossover was finally proven to be crap compared to a professional effort from the likes of G.T. I mean even the drivers are carefully chosen to work together and some drivers like the 2122H in the 4345 were specifically engineered for the task at hand ..not a re worked LE10 like the 2121 in the 4343. Hence I don't waste my time pretending to be a loudspeaker designer but rather develop an appreciation for fine JBL vintage designs like the 4345.

    I must admit though it is fun trying and that is where the satisfaction , the passion and enjoyment of rolling your own system comes into play. But don't kid yourself you have got it right first pop...particulary a 4 way.
    In contrast to the disregarded L220's that I have heard many pair of, the 4345 is one of the few pair of JBL's that I have not had the pleasure of auditioning, therefore, I will not be so arrogant as to speculatively commment on their overall sonic qualities or lack there of. Keeping on topic, the 4345 uses both active and passive crossover components to achieve such a revered status as a 4 way system. Like all vintage JBL's, it was designed and engineered by JBL professionals to perform a specific purpose, with specified reproductive accuracy. Granted, the L220 was "not in the same room" as the 4345, however, the primary design parameters were the same, to build the most excellent loudspeaker for the intended purpose as defined by production and marketing profitability. In the case of the 4345, it was obviously modeled on 4343 design parameters with improvements in driver selection, crossover topology and cabinetry design. Was this an improvement over the 4343? I imagine so. I've never been able to personally compare the two so I am not qualified to do anything more than speculate. What I can definitively state is that what I find to be the most offensive design falacy inherent to the 4343 was the 2307/2308 horn/lense. Although the offense is addressed in the 4345 crossover, the 2307/2308 was still chosen for use in the 4345.
    I am sure JBL did not kid themselves into thinking they had it right the first time either. JBL has never built a perfect loudspeaker and never will. As we all know, there is no such thing. They did the best that they could do with what they had to work with (and they're still working on it.)

    My point? Why would a curious mind be encouraged to do any less here?

  12. #72
    Senior Member Ian Mackenzie's Avatar
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    I without getting bogged down in the 2307 thing there are lots of reasons why the horn needed taming in the 4343. (see the 4343 upgrade thread ..incl looping it through a 52 uf capacitor!)

    I never suggested the 4345 was the greatest thing since sliced bread but it is a good example of how well 4 drivers can be blended. But blending 4 drivers is much harder than 3 as you have no base line reference ..if you know what I mean and it is very confusing to adjust at the best of times.

    As to ascribing to an active 4 way right off your pants, I think it's a great diy project and lot and lots of fun but totally false to lead anyone with the impression that you can sort it out with a handful of posts on a forum. I mean look at Kens Westies, he spent ages tweaking them and they were pre engineered from the ground up.

    I mean imagine you build/ design/assemble model powered planes for a living and your pretty glued up. Its not quite the same as rolling a Concord off the production line (an oldie but a goodie but very carefully thought out.).

    A 4 way is all about balance (as was the Concord) and that ain't easy. Anyone who thinks they can rack up a 4 way like a real JBL system and shoot the breeze before even starting is definately not talking about the classic JBL's we all love .

  13. #73
    norealtalent
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    If you're not making any mistakes, it's just because you're not doing anything...
    (no wonder I'm soooo busy!)

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by norealtalent
    Granted, the L220 was "not in the same room" as the 4345, however, the primary design parameters were the same, to build the most excellent loudspeaker for the intended purpose as defined by production and marketing profitability.
    I suspect Ian might have some information the general public isn't privy to. Suffice it to say the L220 never has been, currently isn't, and never will be very well regarded in certain circles.

    PR15C, LE14H, LE5H, L94, 076, N220, C220 - what on earth could possibly have been the problem? Well, all I can say is it certainly wasn't the individual components. I simply cannot elaborate even after these 25 years have gone by.

    Regardless of any kind of negative light it's always existed in, it did have a 3 year run so there are still models out there and it was considered a "fun" or "acceptable" loudspeaker by some and that's perfectly fine. To each their own. I'm glad JBL was able to sell them. A few people built custom versions using the Loudspeaker Component Series before JBL came up with the first factory model back in '78. The network used was the LX30 and the 077 was used in place of the 076. The first custom iteration I saw was back in '76, two years before the factory model.

    Quote Originally Posted by norealtalent
    My point? Why would a curious mind be encouraged to do any less here?
    My point? Just do it. No real need to yammer on about it. If one posts about such stuff instead of just going out and doing it one is bound to get all kinds of input. I personally hear "won't work" fairly often, not so often these days as in days gone by. Sometimes I'll go ahead and do it anyway to find out why it won't work and sometimes I'll look at the cost involved and realize I simply don't care enough and bag the thought.

  15. #75
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
    This is not an exact science and in the end you have to trust the ears and not necessarily your own.

    I'm trying to figure out what this means Ian. What I hope it means is that I might need someone else's opinion when diagnosing or tweaking the system initially, that may be, we'll see. I trust my own ears to tell me what I like with the final settings.

    Hello Steve

    I know exactly what he's talking about. The original designers as an example. If you were trying to build an all active 4345 you would need to hear a stock 4345 as a point of reference. I always build a DIY with a reference speaker I like as a baseline. I am essentially using the designers ears as my starting point. .

    Again,I am not promoting the idea that Joe Blose "wing it", I just want to respond to what I think is much too scary sounding for those also contemplating a fully active system.

    The comments are not to scare anyone just to let you know it's not as easy as it sounds. Giskards right Just Do It.


    Rob

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