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Thread: Biamp crossover question

  1. #16
    Steve Gonzales
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    The search

    Thanks Widget, I'll wade through the mass. As for the 2421, I stand corrected. I own both types myself. At the risk of going OT, I believe the benefit is extended HF response, and the cost power compression. How would they differ if the actual working bandwidth doesn't take advantage of that extended range?. Hell, I've heard phenolic diaphragmed drivers sound smoother when used in a narrow 800hz-6.5/7khz bandwidth, I know, 6.5khz is pushing it, but you get my drift. As for E.Q., I thought that that was a no-no around here, for the most part.

  2. #17
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    Since Bo answered a question I thought was directed at me, I'll butt in and give an answer posed to him.
    Dammit, bo!! Don't you know this is Widget's place!!

    I guess if you want any other ideas, you have to pm me Steve - and I say it's OK...

    And...

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Gonzales
    As for E.Q., I thought that that was a no-no around here, for the most part.
    Wow, then this really must be Widget's place. Most of the rest of us think quite differently... (Steve - You can put any question of that sort in the same pm...)
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  3. #18
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    As for the 2421, I stand corrected. I own both types myself. At the risk of going OT, I believe the benefit is extended HF response, and the cost power compression.
    Huh????

    The benefit is extended HF response that you would see in the 4430. In the 4345 with the 2405 any additional gain is moot. Power Compression??? I don't understand that??? It's the same motor same power handling. The difference is the diamond surround.


    As for E.Q., I thought that that was a no-no around here, for the most part.
    Double Huh????

    Why on earth would you think that. These old monitors and 1/3 octave cut only EQ's were made for each other. If you were doing an authentic studio type installation with a 4343/4344/4345 do really think there would be no EQ???

    Rob

  4. #19
    Steve Gonzales
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    Easy now

    I've read that the diamond surround diaphragmed drivers have extended range over their smooth roll counterparts, but have less power handling capabilities. Power Compression, to me, is when the sound gets harsh, with a distinct loss of resolution and dynamics, non linear, maybe that too was a bad choice of words, but I meant it as an all other things being equal comparison between the 2420/2421. I did address the "moot point" of the extended HF response in the very next sentence, read it. I don't believe Widget was even addressing that difference, he was correcting me about the actual driver model used in the 4345. As far as E.Q. is concerned, your response appears to be a " Duh, dummy, what rock did you crawl out from under". That's what it reads like. From what I read around here, it seems like the "straight wire" school of thought is dominant, that is just the way I see it, from what I read around here, not for testing, just for the actual 2 channel systems that members actually use to listen to music . Of course I know about the benefits of an E.Q., been using them for 25 years!. You could be a bit less Duh and Huh, and a bit more constructive in a straight forward way. I'd appreciate that much more. I've learned that there is no such thing as a stupid question. If my remarks seem uninformed to you, then inform.

  5. #20
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    The difference between Huh!! and Duh!!

    Huh is when you reading something that is from a guy who has been on this site for what 2 yrs. He knows the history and this site well.

    He says this

    As for E.Q., I thought that that was a no-no around here, for the most part.

    So you think Huh!! He knows better. Why would he think that!! Eq was a way of life for these speakers, they all went into professional installations with EQ.

    So why would he think most of us would think EQ is bad?????


    Duh

    What I came across as. This is a very hard media to communicate in.


    Rob

  6. #21
    Steve Gonzales
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    No harm no foul Rob, I'm getting a little better about at least including the possiblity of a unintended negative interpetation on my part, no sweat. I guess I'd better go back over some threads and re-read what has been said about E.Q.'s around here. Thanks friend.

  7. #22
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Reader's Digest Version

    2421... soooother and HF extension. In the case of the 4345, it's the smoother part that we enjoy.

    EQ.
    I think it is safe to say that we have all screwed up a system with their use at least once in the beginning. It is also safe to say that some of us currently have them in the system and those of us preferring a more neutral sound would probably enjoy the sound better sans EQ.

    Proper EQ.
    Try to cut only. Try to avoid the use of EQ any more than +/- 3dB.
    An RTA certainly helps... don't blindly try to set it flat... that will probably never be the best sound... not because of room curve issues but because you will likely add and subtract from bands next to each other and create massive phase shifts... you may not hear it at first... but it does take away from the "realness" of the sound.

    Room Curve.
    I think we have all come to the conclusion that the ideal in-room final response for a music playback system be somewhat downward tilting with the bass being a few dB up relative the HF.

    Widget

  8. #23
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    In answer to the frequently asked question, what is a good sounding active crossover....

    http://cgi.ebay.com/SYMMETRY-ACS-1-A...QQcmdZViewItem


    Unfortunately they are fairly rare... and this is one of those auctions where the item is described as being in excellent cosmetic condition while the photos seem to dispute that.... all that said, you might contact the seller. If this unit is working properly, you will have a hard time finding a better sounding crossover. I'd expect to pay $300+... but it's eBay so who knows?


    Widget

  9. #24
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    Steve
    If you wanted to try a different flavor of crossover for a little while I could send you a TDM 24CX2. I always have extras for backups. The 24CX2 is a two way stereo unit, I use them on my monitor systems. If you wanted a three unit I have a TDM 24CX3 you could try. Inputs / outputs are all XLR balanced.

    Mike Caldwell

  10. #25
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    Room Curve.
    I think we have all come to the conclusion that the ideal in-room final response for a music playback system be somewhat downward tilting with the bass being a few dB up relative the HF.
    I know I'm not 'sposed to be here butt (sic)...

    What Mr Widget describes is the result one gets using Pink noise to EQ to flat. The net result, seen on an RTA of real data/information, is a response curve that slopes gently off progressing through increasing frequency.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  11. #26
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Caldwell
    Steve
    If you wanted to try a different flavor of crossover for a little while I could send you a TDM 24CX2. I always have extras for backups.
    And, there's some used one's floating about - variable age and condition.

    Dave Rat has some here --> Rat's Used Stuff.

    and on eBay item 7404922057, but this is an earlier vintage, evidenced by the TRS jacks. Still balanced, but not the XLR Mike mentioned.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam
    I know I'm not 'sposed to be here butt (sic)...


    Feel free to toss a grenade in anyway.

  13. #28
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giskard
    Feel free to toss a grenade in anyway.
    OK!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    ...those of us preferring a more neutral sound would probably enjoy the sound better sans EQ.


    If you don't correct for the room excitations, you are not hearing a "neutral" sound (assuming I understand what you mean by that... ). All rooms behave differently - one must make adjustments since the speakers were not designed for their room.
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  14. #29
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    Just One Example

    It wasn't until I heard the 4315 in a small studio in L.A. that I gained a full appreciation for proper EQ.

    I can still hear those things to this day and have to laugh every time someone has something bad to say about the 4315 or proper EQ.

    One definitely has to know what the hell they are doing that's for sure.

    I've heard the 4315 sound dreadful in some environments. But then I've had that experience with countless JBL models. One can really kill a JBL with a "bad" room.

  15. #30
    Senior Member edgewound's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boputnam
    OK!!



    If you don't correct for the room excitations, you are not hearing a "neutral" sound (assuming I understand what you mean by that... ). All rooms behave differently - one must make adjustments since the speakers were not designed for their room.
    I disagree Bo...

    A real live orchestra does not use EQ...so why should precision monitors?
    Uh oh...veering off topic.
    Edgewound...JBL Pro Authorized...since 1988
    Upland Loudspeaker Service, Upland, CA

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