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Thread: A serious question.

  1. #16
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    There isn't a person here giving advice or opinions who hasn't had to modify or delete a post after putting something in writing. There isn't a person here who hasn't been PMed once or twice about the contents of a post, whether by a moderator or another member. There are probably very few who haven't had a post disappear as a moderator cleaned up a thread, locked it, or deleted it. Probably most of us also have posts locked in time that we'd wish to remove now if we could.

    I'm sure I've seen each moderator implode or explode at least once under the double stress of being both a moderator and human at the same time. Heck, a few of us have been threatened with suspension or even been suspended.

    It's normal to make mistakes, it's normal to exercise bad judgment, and it's normal to cross over the line in the quest for attention. That's why we need moderators, to moderate the foolishness and indiscretions that are part of human nature. Honest to God, I don't know why either the fact that people aren't perfect or the fact that communities need policing are surprising to anyone (or the fact that police aren't perfect and will make mistakes, too).

    Rolf asked legitimate questions. He offered some mild suggestions. He assured everyone his intent was friendly. Not everything he got in return was in the same spirit.

    We've been down this road a few times. Here's a recent one:

    http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ead.php?t=8933

    The focus of this discussion is wrong if we're thinking of calling posters out, calling them names, asking them to leave, or suggesting they perish. It's also wrong if we're thinking of moderators as dictators, hypocrites, and two-faced. Neither of those is the problem; they are symptoms.

    This place, this wonderful place, has grown far beyond expectations, or even comfort for some. It's never going to get back to what it was, even if there were a purge of the great unwashed and only the saints got to stay.

    So, let's face facts. The current moderators have too much to watch over, too many things to check, too many holes in the dike that need fingers occasionally. The key to stopping this stuff is to get to it early, deal with it clearly, and move on quickly.

    I'm convinced that more moderators are needed to reduce the workload. We increased them some time ago, and we need to do it again. If this results in better coverage and quicker action, then many of these difficulties will be reduced.

    Not perfect, not a Utopia, just better...
    Out.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    I'm convinced that more moderators are needed to reduce the workload. We increased them some time ago, and we need to do it again. If this results in better coverage and quicker action, then many of these difficulties will be reduced.
    I'm convinced we have enough moderators.

    What we are really looking for is more forum members who understand what the website is all about and who have a clue as to what is appropriate to post on such a website. All the guys at Harman and JBL know what to post about should they choose to do so. They have a thorough understanding of what the website is about and they contribute wholeheartedly to it. I have yet to see them contribute any off-color jokes, inappropriate pictures, etc., etc. It's simply never even been hinted at it's so completely inconceivable.

    Now imagine for a moment what Greg Timbers would say if he saw a picture of dildos on the Lansing Heritage website while he was showing co-workers the site. What would Mark Gander think? Imagine any of the Japanese delegation going back last week and showing this website to co-workers or friends there.

    In any case, I have to agree with Mr. Widget. The holler to waller in has been graciously created. Maybe we do need to make it accessible to only those who request access. Other forums have definitely created members-only and/or access-as-requested-only portions of their forums. Naturally I think it is pathetic a site like this needs that but whatever...

  3. #18
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    So, let's face facts. The current moderators have too much to watch over, too many things to check, too many holes in the dike that need fingers occasionally. The key to stopping this stuff is to get to it early, deal with it clearly, and move on quickly.
    You keep asking for more moderators, more moderation rules, more...

    The way I see it we get complaints for too much moderation not too little... I think these discussion forums run along pretty well as they are currently set up and think more moderators would add to the problem not fix it. If there is a problem that someone sees they should simply send a message to a moderator and let them fix it.

    Additional rules? I really don't think we want to be like Congress and pass legislation on top of legislation...

    As for two faced, hypocritical, inconsistency... for better or worse we are all human... we try to be consistent and even handed, it just doesn't always work out that way... by and large I'd submit we are reasonably successful.


    Widget

  4. #19
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    What we are really looking for is more forum members who understand what the website is all about and who have a clue as to what is appropriate to post on such a website. All the guys at Harman and JBL know what to post about should they choose to do so. They have a thorough understanding of what the website is about and they contribute wholeheartedly to it. I have yet to see them contribute any off-color jokes, inappropriate pictures, etc., etc. It's simply never even been hinted at it's so completely inconceivable.

    Now imagine for a moment what Greg Timbers would say if he saw a picture of dildos on the Lansing Heritage website while he was showing co-workers the site. What would Mark Gander think? Imagine any of the Japanese delagation going back last week and showing this website to co-workers or friends there.
    Thanks I couldn't have said it better

    Or my 15 year old for that matter.

    "Hey dad I thought that was a speaker site??? What's that doing on there"

    Rob

  5. #20
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    An Idea Who's Time May Have Come

    Pathetic or not, the off topic Forum as an access by request feature seems to me a workable and desirable concept. Keeping it from the eyes of visitors seeking on topic material is one great idea.

    Clark in Peoria
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  6. #21
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    You know what would make my time as a Moderator and a Forum Member much more enjoyable??? Never having to use my Moderation Privileges. I really don't come here to be a Moderator. I come because I enjoy my hobby the site and the people here. If anything the Moderation is about the only reason I get the feeling of dread when I see another spat between members or an Off Topic post that's over the edge. It can take hours in PM's behind the scenes to clean it all up. That's not counting what goes on in the Forums. That is not fun.

    Rob

  7. #22
    Senior Seņor boputnam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    The key to stopping this stuff is to get to it early, deal with it clearly, and move on quickly.
    Interesting.

    Every damned time we try to do just that, we are called-out on it.

    Fickle bunch out here...


    -----

    Fair warning: The most recent moderator actions have elicited far too much discussion over nothing. What Ti-dome now suggests (quoted here) is what moderators do. To paraphrase from Forest Gump: "Common sense is as common sense does". I'll call 'em as I sees 'em, and make the tough calls. You all can debate them - I won't engage in further discussion, nor defend the action other than that in italics under "Reason for deletion". That will have to be sufficient. My actions can always be overruled without me, but thus far, I believe the record reflects my sensibilities. We all have far better things to do here, and elsewhere.

    No go on, build some damned speakers!!
    bo

    "Indeed, not!!"

  8. #23
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Interesting.

    Every damned time we try to do just that, we are called-out on it.

    Fickle bunch out here...

    You feel that way too??? I thought it was just me.

    Rob

  9. #24
    Senior Member Ducatista47's Avatar
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    Lend a Hand

    Maybe we can all help out the moderators. Tonight I deleted a post of mine from yesterday. I thought about it - there is a concept - and decided it was nearly pointless and completely useless. Members, lend these guys a hand and help Rob to enjoy life here once again.

    Clark in Peoria
    Information is not Knowledge; Knowledge is not Wisdom
    Too many audiophiles listen with their eyes instead of their ears


  10. #25
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    Question ?????????

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
    You keep asking for more moderators, more moderation rules, more...

    The way I see it we get complaints for too much moderation not too little... I think these discussion forums run along pretty well as they are currently set up and think more moderators would add to the problem not fix it. If there is a problem that someone sees they should simply send a message to a moderator and let them fix it.

    Additional rules? I really don't think we want to be like Congress and pass legislation on top of legislation...

    As for two faced, hypocritical, inconsistency... for better or worse we are all human... we try to be consistent and even handed, it just doesn't always work out that way... by and large I'd submit we are reasonably successful.


    Widget
    Even though I wrote it myself, I reread my post a couple of times to be sure. I made no suggestion to add rules, so why the big deal about it?

    I did recommend adding moderators, so that was correct.

    As for the "more..." that you imply I'm asking for, I just don't see it there. I made a single recommendation.

    As for your last comment, it's a nice synopsis of what I wrote. I agree with you and simply would add, Many hands make light work.
    Out.

  11. #26
    Administrator Robh3606's Avatar
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    Members, lend these guys a hand and help Robb to enjoy life here once again.
    Thanks Clark I am fine just frustrated is all. I have my 4344 up and running so all is good. Biggest damn computer speakers I ever saw!

    Rob

  12. #27
    Senior Member Don C's Avatar
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    I have done a touch of moderating on other sites, and I am often faced with a dillema. I see something that's not appropriate, and I want to just delete it. But I know that if I do, there will be some griping, and deleting the item might lead to more discussion of the topic that I wanted to get rid of in the first place. So sometimes I just decide to leave an item alone and hope it just gets buried by other posts soon.
    Sometimes that works. But sometimes it backfires. Then I get someone following the first guy with a post that's even worse than the first. Go to delete that one, and then there's griping that I deleted one but not the other, and it gets out of hand and I have a lot of mad people on both sides. See, even though we are providing something valuable for free, if there's anything that anyone can think up to complain about, there will be complaints anyway. Like we have right here. What a thankless job the moderating job is.

  13. #28
    RIP 2014 Ken Pachkowsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don C
    Like we have right here.
    Point taken. I am out of this discussion as I will always be tempted to answer "just one more time". As much as I love JBL, audio and music its nice to share other interests. I will follow the rules, just tell me what they are. If all we want is audio related topics, I can live with that and I am sure others can too.

    You guys control the site. Make a decision, set the rules and that's that. I don't think anyone here was forced to be a moderator. I suspect it's a responsibility that most enjoy, otherwise why do it? I am sure others would welcome the responsibility. Perhaps moderators should be put on a mandatory rotation? This way the work load will be distributed more evenly.

    Hmm, I see T Dome already made this suggestion.

    Ken

  14. #29
    RIP 2013 Rolf's Avatar
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    Hi fellows.

    I will not comment much from the posts in this thread after my original question, just make a summary and clear up some misunderstandings.

    It is my clear meaning that no threads/posts should be about politics, religion, pornography or similar sensitive subject on this site. That was why I asked the question, because there has been some of this lately and some has been removed, some not. I never meant it should be more allowed.

    Regarding the moderators, they have my greatest respect, and I believe they know so. What I suggested was simply that there should be a set of rules so that removing or closing a thread/post is done by the same criteria, and not only by personal feelings. If you run a company you can't have co-workers dealing with the customers in different ways, there has to be company rules.

    When I read the comments to my question in this thread it is clear to me that there are at least 2 ways the members want to have this forum. One is the way that the forum should only be dedicated to "the serious stuff". Another way, and what I believe the majority of the members want is to be able to ask questions, no matter how stupid they may seem for some of us, and get a decent answer. When I joined this forum years ago and posted my first question I had no idea that there even was a search function or other ways to look for answers. I consider myself lucky as there was nobody that called me names or swept me off by telling me to do things I had no idea about. If that had been the case i doubt I would have been here for long.

    Regarding the "Off Topic" section I believe it is a great place for members around the world to get to "know each other", maybe for future meeting. It is also a good place to be informed, and to inform about all things that surrounds us in our daily life. Like a guide you can use if you plan a holiday f.ex.

    I will not follow those who has the opinion that the "Off Topic" is "dirt", "crap" or worse and continue to put small or big events in my life here. I will also encourage all other members to do the same. Those who don't want to read it can simply choose not to. What I might do is not to post so often in the "serious threads", as it seems my comments is not so welcome there.

    Well friends, that's all from me in this thread.

    Have a nice day.

  15. #30
    Administrator Mr. Widget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
    Even though I wrote it myself, I reread my post a couple of times to be sure. I made no suggestion to add rules, so why the big deal about it?
    I guess I read more into what you were saying than was there. As for the more, more, bit... I thought you had posted references to your original post about moderator training and limiting numbers of posts etc. at couple of times prior to the one in this thread... maybe someone sent me the link or something... it just seemed like I had seen it a number of times and got it already.

    My point is, is this place so terrible? Taken on the surface it feels like a small group of perhaps six people are dissatisfied with the status quo... considering we are made up of people from so many walks of life and cultures from all over the world, I think the place functions pretty damned well. I must confess I don't understand the gripes, but I hope we can focus on the positive and move forward.

    Rolf, about the Off Off Topic area, I have said that I was wrong and I now do think an Off Off Topic area is a good idea... I personally do enjoy discussions of non audio subjects with people who I have gotten to know and consider my friends... and as Ken Pachkowsky mentioned it can be fun to express differing political viewpoints... for me an intellectual discussion isn't "crap" it can be stimulating and valuable. I find it immensely interesting how well educated conservatives can hold to their beliefs... that said, there is plenty in the Off Off Topic area that is far from stimulating or valuable. I have probably missed some nuggets because I don't have the patience to wade through the stuff I have no interest in... I simply choose not to go there, it is my choice and the beauty of having a specialized area for those topics... it makes it rather easy to avoid.


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