Capacitors...

[Ian Mackenzie]

EveAnna,

Do tell. I used them years ago. I hope they have improved since.

It depends a lot on the application and the overall voicing of the particular loudspeaker drivers and the system as a whole. By this I mean your amps and source are also part of the equation. Not something that you will see on voltage drivers or typical loudspeaker response curves.

There is no one right solution only that some work better than others in certain instances.

The trick is to find something that builds on the complementry aspects of a particular loudspeaker system without everthing else going to hell. Unfortunately the baby tends to get thrown out with the bath water with some engineers.

Wedding it out and making sense of it all is the fun part.

Basically what we have done is assess over an extended period of time the JBL stock crossover capacitors of a vintage JBL network and then applied in situ other crossover capacitor parts under controlled conditions.

By an extended period of time I am not talking about building up a vintage monitor and playing a few tunes over a week or so. We are talking months of evaluations and long term experience with a known monitor(s) used in the assessment process.

These controlled conditions are of course relative to the test environment and the user would need to take into account other considerations such as their room acoustics and equipment preferences.

None the less there are clearly identified tends or should I say traits.

Some people would say in the end its a personal preference thing.

However I draw a line where obvious component (part) colorations are evident when one is aware of what a known recording of a particular instrument / human voice actually sounds like.

Sadly many consumer users do not know what is natural or real sounding and they are at the mercy of marketing department or bean counter preferences in a final product offering as they do not have the means or resources to hear and see the differences.

In the end the user then becomes educated around long term exposure to a particular component parts and ultimately system coloration which they take as being correct.

This is complicated by the fact that in many instances inherant component colorations actually compensate for each other in an additive and subtractive manner. Some of these component colorations are enjoyable to the ear while others are irritating.

Perhaps this is why there are so many offering of audio nirvana for those special and often expensive parts.

Over the next few weeks I will talk about some of the explorations of crossover capacitors we have done and other related but important issues.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am having a number of server issues (my end) following re installation of software. Luckily I backed up to a Mybook external 250GB drive last night.

However, Looking back here is an interesting links (and readings) recently re posted by Heather that play out the broader considerations mentioned in the later part of the previous post.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...18&postcount=5
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...70&postcount=6

There certainly has been a lot of great work done by some of our more active members since then.

Moving forward perhaps the more interesting issue is what happens to your perceptual threshold of "capacitor colorations" when the issue of the room and inherent flaws in the loudspeaker are minimised or eliminationed?

[Earl K]

Well this has been too quiet for too long.

- Over the long JBL weekend (Monday is a JBL Holiday) I will post the most recent experiements in what I will refer to as the Millennuim capacitor upgrade.

- Moving forward perhaps the more interesting issue is what happens to your perceptual threshold of "capacitor colorations" when the issue of the room and inherent flaws in the loudspeaker are minimised or eliminationed?

- However I draw a line where obvious component (part) colorations are evident when one is aware of what a known recording of a particular instrument / human voice actually sounds like.

- The trick is to find something that builds on the complementry aspects of a particular loudspeaker system without everthing else going to hell. Unfortunately the baby tends to get thrown out with the bath water with some engineers.


- This is complicated by the fact that in many instances inherant component colorations actually compensate for each other in an additive and subtractive manner. Some of these component colorations are enjoyable to the ear while others are irritating.

- Perhaps this is why there are so many offering of audio nirvana for those special and often expensive parts.

- I am having a number of server issues (my end) following re installation of software. Luckily I backed up to a Mybook external 250GB drive last night.


Ian

Still having computer issues ? / I was looking forward to hearing your latest musings on this topic .

< Earl

[X_X]

EveAnna,

I used them years ago. I hope they have improved since.

There is no one right solution...

However I draw a line where obvious component (part) colorations are evident when one is aware of what a known recording of a particular instrument / human voice actually sounds like.

Sadly many consumer users do not know what is natural or real sounding...

What a heap!

Hey Susan,

I find it fascinating how one could be so audacious as to suggest that if someone is enjoying a particular component (or capacitor) that doesn't meet your personal tastes- it is because they don't know any better. What's worse- they don't even know what is supposed to sound good. Worse still- they don't know what a human voice sounds like. Mind you, these are humans we are talking about- humans that speak and listen to other humans every day!!

I'm curious to know what experience you have with musical instruments, live sound, or recording studios to make such a presumptuous statement.

I liked what Multicaps did in a pre. Could it be that it mated with my system better? Could it be that I hear better than you? Who knows? Simply put-I prefer them in that application. My system, my music, my taste. So, tell me I'm "wrong" or insult me and others by saying I/we don't know any better, or that I/we don't know how things are supposed to sound.

I am a trained musician- active in the studio for 12 years- I know how instruments are supposed to sound. Furthermore- I know how they are recorded, mixed, and mastered. I know the effect this has on the final product. Do you? I bet there are MANY others here that have the same background- maybe even more experience than I do.

One last thing- I liked the Giskard designed charge-coupled Solens over the passive Claritycaps you suggested. Again, my tastes.

The next time you want to put some cowardly, passive aggressive words out there by calling me a girl name- leave me a PM with your address.

Nate.

[Earl K]

One last thing- I liked the Giskard designed charge-coupled Solens over the passive Claritycaps you suggested. Again, my tastes.

- I haven't yet tried the ClarityCaps / though I intend to / seemingly , the longer I wait - the more the Cdn dollar appreciates in value against the US Greenback .

- I'm still very hot on dc biasing ( after 3.5 years ) / which means the Claritys' must be tested under bias .

- I've run biased Solens' in the HF bypass circuit for my Altec 288s since Xmas .
- I like them just fine and have really came to appreciate their somewhat "clear clarion call" . I still bypass the Solens' with F&F polypropylenes as well as F&F polystyrenes because for me , it's alot like curling ,, ie; trying to sweep those last bits of UHF into the circle .
- I just took the Solens out to start listening to some MPP type caps called "UltraCap". I bought a bunch a couple of years ago ( and then promptly ignored them for some reason ) .

[X_X]

- I haven't yet tried the ClarityCaps / though I intend to / seemingly , the longer I wait - the more the Cdn dollar appreciates in value against the US Greenback .

I certainly like them. Personally, I think they are very good for my system and music. I also think they are priced well considering what they do. I am trying to put together a biased Claritycap network now. It might be a mixture of Solens and Clarity for economy. I think it might be better still.

- I'm still very hot on dc biasing ( after 3.5 years ) / which means the Claritys' must be tested under bias .

Definately.

- I've run biased Solens' in the HF bypass circuit for my Altec 288s since Xmas .
- I like them just fine and have really came to appreciate their somewhat "clear clarion call" .

Agreed.

In my system, they come off with a lighter-than-air quality in the HF/UHF. This may not be favoured by all who try it, but I really like it. If a person values the leading edge of a note and its decay- he/she will likely appreciate biased Solens. (Again, this is in my system YMMV).

The Claritycaps were hard to isolate because I have only heard them in a 3145 network. I have played around with Solens for some time in various places and once they become biased- they really come to life! Comparing the two in passive form- I think the Claritycaps have a bit more "slam" and weight, but by comparison to the biased Solens, they sounded slightly muddied up. This could be because I am comparing a CC network to a passive. This may be the very qualities of the design rather than the capacitor. I imagine a biased Claritycap might be the best of both worlds. These are my opinions, anyway.

If and when I get the active network up and running (DEQX), I plan to run biased somethings on the UHF. I have a 3way unit to use with a 4way speaker. I believe Widget is running a similar rig.

I still bypass the Solens' with F&F polypropylenes as well as F&F polystyrenes because for me , it's alot like curling ,, ie; trying to sweep those last bits of UHF into the circle .
- I just took the Solens out to start listening to some MPP type caps called "UltraCap". I bought a bunch a couple of years ago ( and then promptly ignored them for some reason ) .

Interesting. I wouldn't imagine bypassing- especially in that portion, would have any audible effect. Now you have my curiosity. I must try that!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yes, major.

I am waiting for a new server.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Sorry for the delay

There were some issues with the PC but its just too old (5 years) to spend money on to update it with more ram and other updates that I need to run particular programs. I should be up and running in 2-3 weeks.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Clark has been through the entire process with the exception of the active crossover upgrade at this point.

He may wish to add some comments at this time until we have an opportunity to offer a complete documented account on the process elsewhere.

[Ducatista47]

Ian has indeed been kind enough to upgrade my 3145 networks. He simpified the circuit by eliminating or bypassing the pieces rendered unnecessary by biamping. That and upgrading some parts of the conducting path reduced insertion losses significantly. The capacitors were then upgraded to Clarity cap SA's.

Since I had to be without them for a while, I had been listening through Stax headphones in the meantime. I was expecting the 4345's to be quite a step down from that, but the differences in quality were quite subtle. The improvement is really that great!

The detail, despite not yet being bypassed, was much finer and sharper than before. Imaging was better and the sound was just plain more natural. I was skeptical if bypassing would improve things much, but since the network was designed to operate that way, I pressed on.

I installed Auricap .01mf caps in all the bypass positions. The quality again leapt upward. Detail went through the roof, getting much more out of my SET amp and the wonderful transducers the 4345 holds. More, frankly, than I thought possible from these speakers I keep reading are out of date and obsolete. The imaging was much better still, and Patricia Barber's CD's sounded every bit as good as they did through the Stax. Better in some ways, actually. The combination of the superb balance of the system with the level of detail, and the naturalism of the voicing and the tone, is unreal.

I am especially impressed because the improvements make them much better 4345's, but still 4345's. If they had ended up sounding great but like something else, I would not be so happy with the results. All the strengths and great character of the monitors remain, but improved in every way.

Please don't dismiss these upgrades as a poor man's alternative to new networks, bypassed or not. I don't know if more money would yield better results, but the improvements gained in this way are spectacular. If your sources and electronics are up to the task, you will be amazed what the old 4345 can do for you.

The only downside is if your sources or amps are crap, you will hear the weakness right now. I switched out pieces to experiment and quickly found out what gear was up to it and what stuff was not. This system is now very, very revealing.

At some future date Ian and I may get around to documenting this step by step. Make no mistake, Ian is very good with this stuff, and frankly he did pretty much everything. And I am so grateful.

Clark

[soundboy]

I use the SA series claritycap and the auricap bypasses in several systems, as well...partly due to Ian's suggestion on the auricap end. I experienced the exact same results....let them play a few days....and they sound even better...beautiful pics Ian.....and thanks for the posts on the subject...

[Ian Mackenzie]

Just a note that the Auricaps were part of the Upgrade but for logistical reasons and to allow Clark to hear the differences they were installed last.

As part of our Capacitor selection decision process there was extensive consultation with Jeff at Sonic Craft to create a reference network. Jeff is regarded as one of the foremost in the field of loudspeaker crossover capacitor upgrades.

The reference network used in the evaluations was fitted a Mundorf Supreme Silver and Oil capacitors. Jeff regarded this the only worthwhile upgrade from the Clarity SA Capacitors (non bypassed) and previously used interations of Mylar, Mylar bypassed (+biased), Hovlands, Auricaps and Solen Fast caps (+biased) for the 4345 system.

During the development phase various capacitors (as mentioned above)were swapped out in situ within the stock 3145 network using high quality flying leads to verify the authenticity of the results.

It should be noted however that the outright results came from more than mere capacitors upgrades but from more than a dozen other proprietry modifications to the signal path of the 3145 stock network. These modifications required an extensive study of electrical charactertistics of the network, of the layout and signal routing which is quite complex.

Of course the best results regardless of the network can only be obtained with very careful setting up of this type of system.

If asked what is the difference.

The stock 3145 sounds safe but in comparison it sounds fluffy and plastic with an artificial quality compared to the modified network which gave the system significantly more clarity and a natural tonal contrast without sounding bright and unnatural like many other capacitors we evaluated.

Please note unless you have the resources, appropriate skills and experience I would recommend a re build of an equivalent network by a qualified technician rather than attempt to modify a stock 3145 network.

The decision to undertake this project was initially discussed in August/September 2006. In case you are wondering why upgrade a stock 3145 network I wanted to measure, study and audition the stock network and hence what other 4345 owners experience. Following that initial phase of the project we determined it was viable up upgrade the networks and make significant impovements to the subjective performance of this particular system.

I must say my involvement with Clark during the project has been a lot of fun and has resulted in a mutual friendship.

For those interested Clarity SA Cap and Auricap bypass modification is becoming a well regarded combination among those who are interested in the ultimate diy loudspeaker capacitor upgrade. The price / value ratio is indeed impressive.

It should be noted the Mundorf reference version of this network costs about 3-4 times to construct. There are noticably similarities in the subjective performance of both the reference and the Clarity SA/Auricaps network as mentioned by Clark.

Finally, and this applies to any tinkering or tweaking of your crossovers. Its all relative to the rest of your equipment.

If you have a mid level amp or pre power combo and use a Sony universal player please don't loose a winks sleep over any of this. If you are a home theatre amp user all of this is irrelevant. Hi end amp and source equipment users will need to assess what best works in their system and their room on an individual basis.

What I am saying here is the more elaborate the associated equipment the more sensitive it will be to a even to subtle changes. For example I was pleased with the stock networks using the Kenwood home theatre amplifier and I was impressed with the charge coupled Solen network using the SKA GB150 amp (designed by Greg Ball, an ex Mark Levinson designer). But only the Clarity/Auricap network and the reference network gave me true listening pleasure running the Passlabs X2.5 preamp X250.5 poweramp. The other iterations were unlistenable using the Pass labs combination.

I put this down to the sheer transparency of and musical quality this amp and this is the price you pay for quality.

A Pass Labs X2.5 preamp, X250.5 power amp and Lavry dac, JBL DX1 where used in a reference system. Other loudspeakers used in evaluations Magnaplaner 1.6 and Dynaudio reference monitors. Other amplifers used SKA B150, PSS600, SAE 50B and Kenwood Home threatre multichannel amplifier.

I have no association with Clarity caps or Sonic Craft and provide this information for members benefit without any desire for financial gain or kudos.

Hey Clark,

I wish I still had your networks plugged in down here.

My babies miss them 3145's!

best

Ian

Ps Sorry about the editing but unfortunately I am unable to load any programs due to a computor issue.

[soundboy]

In my modified JBL BX63A (Blackgates, Schottky's, etc) I tried several high pass caps including Mundorf silver/oil, Hovland, Auricap, and Claritycap. This is just my take, using highly modified Adcom equipment (ala Musical Concepts 565 pre, 545 mains, 555 mono sub...), DIY Dynaudio 3 ways with claritycaps, 2245H sub.

The Hovlands were irritating and shifted the upper mids forward. Not a good, musical experience.

The silver oils had beautiful top end, clarity, detail, air....but slightly thinned out the mids. Noticeable enough to want something else, even after letting them break in for several weeks.

The Claritycaps were smooth, detailed, warm, balanced....but slightly rolled off the highest treble and air.

The Auricaps were the ticket. No loss of high end air compared to bypass, mids sound the same as bypass, great detail, can hardly tell any difference from bypass.

These were all .15uf values. At least with my set up, the auricaps were just perfect. Also beyond my budget to use 100% in a high level crossover...hence the use of claritycaps with auricap bypass...

[MJC]

-
- I've run biased Solens' in the HF bypass circuit for my Altec 288s since Xmas .
- I like them just fine and have really came to appreciate their somewhat "clear clarion call" . I still bypass the Solens' with F&F polypropylenes as well as F&F polystyrenes because for me , it's alot like curling ,, ie; trying to sweep those last bits of UHF into the circle .
- I just took the Solens out to start listening to some MPP type caps called "UltraCap". I bought a bunch a couple of years ago ( and then promptly ignored them for some reason ) .

I used the Solens in a biased xovers for my L212s, but I didn't by-pass them. Giskard had mentioned that GT had said by-passing Solens wasn't neccessary.
One thing I did do that opened up the highs was add spikes to the bases, something that didn't exist 30 years ago. I still don't know what company first started using spikes.
I find the Solen CC xovers to be very good, very musical and very clear.
The only time they didn't sound good was when I was using Monster XP speaker wire, for about a week. The XP made the highs sound harsh.
Some of the lps I've had for 30 years and more, I never knew how good they really are, until I built the CC networks.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thanks for you post.

Yes,

I built an Auricap crossover for a member previously, no complaints so far and I used them exclusively in a hi end active crossover, no complaints there either. The Auricap passive crossover is still quite expensive to make compared to the Clarity/Auricap bypassed network. They are a good all rounder with the right associated equipment.

Once you start specialising its a case by case thing and as mentioned earlier, depending on the associated equipment which can be additive or subtractive in colorations there will be a match somewhere. As an analogy its a bit like taking a photograph then processing it through Photoshop.

In my experience the problem more often than not which triggers attempting alternatives (capacitors and other things like cables) is the associated equipment and even anomalies with the loudspeaker. The associated equipment results in a series of compensation layers, like screens that filter and subtract or add certain properties to the original signal which incidentally may not be pure in the first place (the source).

At a more consumer level of mass market equipment what you end up with is so processed with strong traits of colouration that attempting different capacitors is just a variation of a pre existing condition. You might like it better and that may be the intent but in the overall scheme of things don't kid yourself its the best tweak of all time or that you are hearing a transparent reproduction of real music. Marketing guys love you to think that.

The intent here is to provide some sort of basic framework for rationalising and understanding what happens who you make a change.

Finally, I am not an elitist and I quite enjoy using vintage equipment and
home theatre.