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Some people swear by tube others solid state some people swear by low watt amps 25 or under other people swear by amps from 40 to 60 watts and some swear by big powerful amps. Tube amps have less components that's good and lower watt solid state amps have less components and so far it seams i like the lower watt solid state amps over the higher watt solid state amps. What do you guys think any truth to this or am i just drinking too much ?
Class A solid state ..... the warmth of tubes without the distortion .
Rich
Warmth doesn't necessarily mean fidelity. Warmth can be a form of voicing or tone-control.
Do you want warmth or accuracy? What is the rest of your system?
I switched from tubes (Fisher SA1000 and Mac C20) nearly 40-years ago and have found accuracy in Crown amps over that time. I have others and, truth be told, I've not tried a "modern" tube amp. But if I want warmth, I have EQ in nearly every system in my home. I find it works best to start with a clean sheet of paper (no coloring) and then add pigment (EQ/tone control) to create what I want. In most cases, especially with a good recording, that means no EQ. Sometimes I'll kick in a Fletcher-Munson curve for low-level listening. I'm not against tubes, but I fail to see how creating a "warmer" presentation than the original recording would be anyone's goal. Of course that assumes "warm" is not already the color of the recording and that "warmth" is not assumed to simply be the opposite to whatever would be solid-state.
It always becomes somewhat of a semantic issue. Do tube proponents assume their sound is "warmer" than the original and that solid-state is the opposite and still not accurate or faithful to the original? Just different ends of the same spectrum? One seldom hears claims of more accuracy or fidelity to the original from tubes, simply that they impart a warmth not available from solid-state.
Different horses for different courses. You need more power for specific purposes. Control of a large woofer under demanding use will require more power and damping factor. Clean, clear, no-noise reproduction from a high-frequency driver won't need the power but may benefit from the lower noise in a low-power amp. Try it for yourself and see what you think.
I'm not an engineer but I do play with a lot of different amps. If that makes some here label me a Subjectivist, whatever. I wish we'd stop with the labels since they call up an ugly specter of Ayn Rand hype and from that jumping-off point I can't separate the connotation of the label from the words of the poster. You either like the sound, or you don't. Does anything else really matter? :dont-know:
Maybe Rich was talking about actual heat... both tubes and class A amps can really heat up your room. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA
Personally I really like class A amplification... but the room heating aspect can be unpleasant.
Widget
I concur. :coolness:Quote:
Originally Posted by richluvsound
One that sounds good to my ears lol. I love a wide variety of music. So what that said it depends on the individual room set up it depends what type of drivers you have inside cabinets some horns can sound like their beaming or little harsh which all depend on what kind of amp you are using. Just my opinion tubes sound better in the mid to hi frequency. Solid state rules in the low end. I always have more clean power than I need [ head room ] some people might have a speaker that have a sensitivity of 96 to 98 db at 1 watt so they can use the little 20 watt amp. I personally have several speakers with different db at 1 watt ranges from 93 to 95 -97. Some all cone drivers one compression at the mids and hi frequency and the last one that has a air motion tweeter. So what I am getting at there is a lot of factors that play's a role in a good sounding amp. But I believe this is a never ending story we will always have the need to seek out great sounding stereo equipment
Warmth equates to the 2nd harmonic distortion in the context of THD.
Class A power amps have inherently low 3rd harmonic distortion. SE class A amps exhibit tendency towards warm sound in the absence of 3rd harmonic distortion.
SS SE amps like the Pass Aleph where like that. They are very nice but not on trend in terms of contemporary hifi listening.
In contrast the Pass X series cancelled out the 2nd harmonic distortion.
Pass then added a small amount of SE bias up to a few watts in the X.5 series.
I have one of those the X250.5.
I don’t mind tubes in preamps. They can add. A certain emotional feeling. Again it’s the 2nd harmonic distortion.
A bit of 2nd harmonic goes a long way with metal diaphragms.
Given the (relatively to electronics) massive distortion present in speakers and untreated or undertreated listening spaces, distortion in electronics could be considered a non-issue, but I don't think so. When fidelity is already so imperfect, it makes no sense to NOT minimize distortion in everything else. IMO.
The pastime of listening to music, audiophile style, generally ignores the fact that speaker manufacturers hardly ever list distortion figures. It also ignores actual fidelity to a great degree, and I don't mind saying I find this odd. After all these years I am finding it bordering on annoying. The only conclusion I can reach is that everyone seems to have their favorite distortion. If this seems an outlandish take, I can report that whenever I mention my pursuit of hearing as closely as possible what went into the microphone, the but-but-buts come out of the wall. I have yet to have an audiophile or audio equipment enthusiast say yes, me too. A few agreed then furiously qualified and backpedaled.
Like everyone here, my answers to the original question on this thread have evolved. I still favor large, (very) high-efficiency speakers and low distortion First Watt power amps. I have great tube gear and have pulled all of it out of my systems. I am now completely happy to eschew speakers entirely to enjoy the stellar clarity, fidelity, complete integration and cohesion, perfect time alignment, and vanishing distortion of high-end Stax headphones powered by a suitable amp. I am tired of letting bass slam dictate how much distortion and lost detail I want to put up with. Even my $129 Etymotic in ears have less distortion than all but one speaker I have ever heard. Since this paragraph will not auto destruct in five seconds, know it is irrelevant to anyone else and should be ignored.
I thought about your post again.Quote:
Originally Posted by sean19
Historically there have been segments or groups as you suggest.
Looking at it a bit more closely at a certain price point people certainly have those kind of preferences because as product they exist and meet demand at a price point.
I am talking about classics like Rogue amps, Audible illusion preamps, the A1 Musical fidelity small class a integrated amp and low powered SE valve triode amps from Decware. It’s a broad market with lot of players.
So you have people that have grown into a preference and in many cases stayed with it and are brand loyal.
And in that space has been the big SS amp that’s got an iron grip on the bass.
But there is a category that is never entirely happy. They keep changing out amps looking for navana and they keep the industry going.
Of course the loudspeaker is a controlling influence in terms of sensitivity and it’s not uncommon to see low powered SE Triodes power a horn system. Depending on the design a SE triode may not have a warmth of a Leak amp that has a traditional valve sound.
On your point Tubes have less components is good l think it comes down to the skill of the designer not the parts count per say. Some of the best low parts count valve amps and preamps are also very expensive.
If you go further up in price point the market is different in that you can have what you want without the limitations. But that’s a small market. Here ML, Macintosh, Pass and numerous others give you everything and more.
Then there are the diy guys. If you don’t want the diy route there are people in the business who defy conventions like Carver, Hafler and others who can get to market really good products and pitch them as world beaters that punch way above their weight.
Is less is more in terms of parts? It can be and the amp tends to be lower powered. There is a lot going on in that space with the diy group and you have Nelson Pass meeting the market with his First Watt lower power amps like the excellent F7. That group are in some cases running open baffle loudspeakers with efficient full range drivers like Fostex and a large woofer often also open baffle. They Biamp a big SS amp on the woofer.
In the Jbl space the Jbls are more sensitive relative to an AR9 and you can get away with a low power amp BUT the full dynamic capabilities do require higher power levels. If you have the flexibility to Biamp then splitting the heavy lifting to the big bad ass SS amp on the woofer and your smaller and lower parts count SS amp on the horn or mid is a logical approach.
From here you can be happy and set and forget.
But there are those of us who will want to finess the illusion and look at voicing the overall system.
This involves a somewhat disciplined and time consuming approach to selecting components that have complimentary sonic qualities that deliver the most satisfaction from the loudspeaker system. The power amp is the end of the line in terms of the electionics and it’s often the biggest influence in terms of getting at one extreme an analytical presentation to a lush and emotionally engaging presentation at the other end of the spectrum.
Refinement exists further up stream in the signal path and down stream in the loudspeaker as a system. The key to it is in the listening and understanding what really makes a difference and where to make changes. With some persistence you can attain a stellar system that goes beyond the generic preferences.
I have a dozen or so amps that I rotate in and out of my system, TUBE: 12 to 35 wpc, SOLID STATE: 25 to 100 wpc, some integrated, some amp + preamp. My listening room is fairly small so there is never a lack of bass, but the one thing I listen for is how well the mid-range frequencies are presented, in magnitude and articulation.
Generally speaking, the higher watt SS direct-coupled amps seem to have the cleanest, flattest response, but the mids always seem lifeless to me. The amps that produce the best sounding mid-range are the higher watt tube amps and lower watt capacitor-coupled solid state amps. These amps paired with lower-end JBL 2-way speakers of the 1960's playing some well recorded strings or reeds produce sounds that I feel in my chest.
Never messed with tubes.
Initially ran the 250ti's on a 110wpc Denon receiver , sounded good.
Went to 375wpc amp and then things opened up, a lot. Can't go back to SS receiver.
I'm on a tube trend presently. I have some great ss amps with pedigree and same with tubes. "Warmth", whether ss or tubes makes me wanna puke. It's a type of distortion that's always gonna be there if it's an attribute, very fatiguing. Stop the bloom! Transparency is where it's at for me. That way you're always gonna hear(kinda) what the engineer wanted you to hear. So iow, an accurate(kinda) presentation limited by the ancillaries. I want it "trying" to be real. Having spewed all that, imo, the best sq comes from tubes. So far. I find it has the most refined, transparent low level resolution. Extremely fine transient response, better than any ss I've heard.
I try as many different amps,
as I possibly can.
Prefer tubes,
yet any is better than not listening at all.
'Class A'
I recently bought a Parasound A21+
Its very good. I would describe it as a neutral power amp as far as mid range goes with plenty of inner detail and depth.
I am preferring it over some of the Pass Labs amps which have a warmth to the highs that are not necessarily accurate.
The Pass range has moved to a more mellow, lush presentation in recent years. Its a bit too obvious on an accurate monitor.
The Parasound scores favourably on bass lines. There is more definition.
The power is effortless with 160 watts a side on tap.
These John Curl designs keep getting better and better.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
I had a Parasound Halo A52 for a while, it was good, solid and clean, but didn't quite do it for me. My original Halo JC1s on the other hand are wonderful. A couple of years ago I had a pair of Halcro DM68s and did a series of shoot outs over a few weeks. I preferred the JC1s. I was using both sets of mono blocks full spectrum on my Everests. Both sets of amps were very, very good, but I thought the DM68s were just a bit too dry.
Today I am using the little Pass Labs XA25 up top on my tri-amped system and it is a marvelously smooth and detailed amp. I have the JC1s doing mid bass duty below the tiny Pass Labs... the JC1s are overkill for sure, but what the heck.
Regarding tubes, I have had 845 SETs, all manner of push pull amps from McIntosh and obscure boutique brands, I even had some OTL room heaters at one point. Every one of them had something going for them, but I prefer a well designed solid state design for day in and day out consistency and honest sound quality.
Widget
Widget, first world problems using a JC1 for woofers? Geez, I thought I was bad using a Bryston 4BSST2 for subs...:D
i just bought a First Watt J2 to power my 846A horns. currently building a ACA, may use that for horns and move the J2 to woofers... should work nicely.
That model is 300 watts per channel @ 8ohms. I recently picked up an A 21(sans "+" that's 250 per channel) for running the woofers in a furure 3 way active project.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
Classe A
Ones that sound good driving the speakers and don't get strained if I choose to cut loose and things get a little loud. The class isn't that important to me. As long as the loads they are working into is compatible to the overall amp design things should be fine. So pay attention to minimum impedances and phase in your speakers response plots as the combination can make life difficult for the amplifiers.
Rob:)
As far as technologies, topologies, and power output ranges go, I think there are great and not so great amplifiers of every type.
I've had many highly regarded amps, and I can tell you two that sounded best to me.
Sansui AU-7700 Integrated Amp Very clean and detailed, early to mid 1970's, about 50 W/ch*. Sansui knew what they were doing.
Alesis Matica 500 Power Amp 125 W/ch* , 80 V/usec I think this high a slew rate tributes to the sonic excellence of this one.
*Rated power outputs at 8 ohms nominal load impedance
Evaluations when listening with JBL 4410 and JBL 4412 monitors.
:applaudire:Quote:
Originally Posted by richluvsound
Historically high powered class AB power amps don’t work as well at low power levels. Lots of power transistors turning on/off with relatively low class A bias.
Bi amping with a transparent electronic crossover using a smaller high quality amplifier on the horn or midrange overcomes this limitation.
Wich kind of amp i like depends on wich speaker i want to use it with.
For example i had a Pioneer M-22, a small class A amp. Not so impressive with JBL 250ti...but with AR3a with its impedance drop this amp is great.
A Pioneer SX-1980 sounds fantastic with 250ti..but not with AR3a:s...but both are great amps in my opinion.
Hello ,I am currently using a Nuprime STA9 for bi amp ( medium , high medium and high ) on my 250 XPL .Very happy with it better than some tube amp i Used .Nb: Works best with a tube Preamp .Gerard
With my limited budget, I've tried many that were within those constraints; Carver, Adcom, Marantz, Yamaha and then Crown. I am hands down a Crown fan now. I am convinced there is no better value for your money than a PS or Studio Reference amplifier. If you want the tightest, most authoritative bass you've ever heard, Studio Reference. Crown K series amps come in behind a Studio Reference, and PS amps nipping on the heels of a K series. I don't recommend a K series for anything other than subwoofer duty, but a PS is great all-around. They've got a really sweet midrange & high presentation. And if you need more juice, all of those Crowns can be bridged. :rockon1:
I recently swapped out my Carver TFM-25 for an Acurus A200 (both in the 200+w/ch range). I have an Acurus RL11 (remote control) Preamp, and when the matched power amp became available,
I immediately offered to buy it, knowing the seller well and trusting him. The Acurus has a near silent noise floor and is a great improvement with tracks on my local server as well as streaming
audio via Qobuz, a WiiM Pro Streamer and a Topping D30 DAC ...
That is why I detest most solid state guitar amplifiers, other than the better modelling ones. Don't get me wrong, theres some tube instrument amps sound terrible as well...my old 100w Garnet Deputy 2 combo amp comes to mind...but I'll take my pre-CBS Fender Bassman blackface head over most anything solid state for playing guitar thru.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie