076, 3105, 2410 and 2225 or e130 cabinet design

I'm new to the forum, so I hope this is an appropriate place for this.

I'm a former musician and found some "odds and ends" in a couple boxes in my garage. The items include one 076, one 2403, two (still in the box) 3105 crossovers, two 2225's and two e130's. This stuff was boxed up 20 years ago and kept dry. Everything works. I'm trying to come up with a cabinet design that would use some of these components. I've looked at 4333 clones, but also checked the JBL enclosure guide found in this site's library for ideas. I'm good with woodworking and thought 2397 clones out of claro walnut would be a nice match to the 2410's. If I go with the e130's in a cabinet straight from the enclosure guide, I could put the 076/2403 in it and put the 2397/2410 horn on top. The e130 cabinet is tuned to 40hz at 3 cubic ft. The guide also has an enclosure for the 2225's, but it is also tuned to 40hz. Doesn't seem to be a gain on the low end.

Of course I'll need crossovers for 800hz-1200hz. I was thinking of cloning some 3110/3110a's. With these crossovers and the other components, I should be able to get a fairly flat response from 40hz to over 20Khz.

I'm just in need of a little input before putting a lot of time into cabinets. I'm happy to find this stuff, but its incomplete and raises some questions about design. I'm guessing that's why I put it all in the boxes to begin with.

Here's a link to the 2397 design:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ll=1#post48096

JBl spec sheet for 2397 (measurements slightly different from above link)
http://www.lansingheritage.org/image...2397/page2.jpg

And here's the link to the Enclosure Guide with dimensions, tuning and other helpful information:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/suppor...=219&doctype=3

I'm trying to decide whether to go with the e130 or 2225 for low end. I can't find much on the response curve of the e130, so I'm hoping someone can help. I know it is a descendant of the D130 hifi speaker, with a slightly larger gap, 1.35 t magnet and enhanced voice coil structure (kapton?)

Here's what I have dug up on the 2225:

The response curve for the 2225 can be usable down to 33-35hz using a 5 cubic ft tuned port enclosure with a 25 square inch port. Here's the link to the specification: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2225hj.pdf

The JBL pro 4647 enclosure appears to match this claim, although it appears to be about 5 db down at that point. Here's the link: http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4647.pdf

There's a 5 cubic ft design in the kit plans in this site's library. This is a home use enclosure design, but I'm guessing the response would be similar to the 4647. http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/.../1970s-kit.htm Alternatively, I could just use the 4647 spec as a basis for the cabinet.

Now, I need something for the e130 to compare. Does anyone have response information on the e130? :confused:

The E130 is an instrument speaker. It supposedly sounds fantastic in midrange, but will not give you lots of bass. I would use both 2225 (below 300 Hz) and E130 (above 300 Hz). The problem is filtering, at 300 Hz the filter will be very large and expensive. I would go active, and use the passive filter above. If you use E130 above 300, the box design for it is not critical.

You will need to check the 2225. There is a piece of foam in the ventilation protecting the voice coil from bugs. The foam might have become bad, and could ruin the coil.

If you got space go for jbl 4530 cabinet with 2225 and 4560 cabinet with E130.

Best regards

Mårten

Thanks Marten,

I like the idea of 4530 and 4560's, but its not practical in the available space. I had four 4560's with 2220's in them, back when I was a working musician. They put out great mids!

Truth is, that I'm probably limited to choosing between the woofers. I think you are right about using the 2225's for low end. The E130's are great in the mids, which is why I was hoping to get more information on them. The spec has them at 50hz to 6000hz and 105db 1w 1m (@2Khz?). http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/eseries.pdf I should probably believe the spec and what you are saying. What was throwing me is an audio clip of an E130 used for bass, which puts it down to about 41hz.

I'm torn between active and passive x-overs for the low/mid split. Passive is a cheaper entry point. That's why the 3110's were mentioned. I just need to locate a schematic and parts list.

Appreciate the input.:)

If you can add a smaller midrange (2118?), keep the 2225. Maybe trade the E130?

Otherwise keep the E130. You can EQ the bass, but not the midrange :-). E130 is very close to 2220, check the thiele-small parameters.

Maybe trade both of them for a pair of E145? Very good midbass and midrange.

There are more experienced members on the forum, but at least you got a response :-)

Thanks for the reply Marten.

I checked then 2225's and they are in really good shape. Looks like they were reconed with original JBL parts just before going into storage.

Using EQ on the bass is probably a good idea to extend the range (may draw some flack from purists for saying this). I don't plan to exceed 30 watts RMS, so the cones shouldn't get over-extended. Whether I could get away with this with just the E130. . . . X-max is pretty limited. Probably safe at this wattage.

I found this clip on youtube of E130's and 2420's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHXVJ6B4qWM It's a poor demo song, as it doesn't have much low end, but kinda' looks good! :) The units are very directional too.

Thanks again!

Jim

I was going to say if you're going 3 way (w/UHF) then use the 225 and not the E130, but then you could use the E130 instead and add a mono sub for the bottom. That would be a killer set up!:)

I was out a couple days and just got back. Yes! I was thinking the 2225's would make a great sub. I could build cabinets in stages, starting with the E130's and adding the sub later. :) I'm pretty sure this is the right direction. Actually, its the obvious answer I was missing. :o:

I'll need to clean the 2410's before installing. There seems to be some debris in/on the screen in the throat. They also have some superficial scratches in the paint. Does anyone know of a good matching grey spray paint?

If you build the sub with 2 isobaric mounted 2225, the size will be halved. WinISD Pro Alfa is useful for simulation.

Just search the forum and you will find the proper JBL color codes, JBL color is one of them. Pantone 403 is the right color according to this thread. Have it mixed in a paint shop (bring the driver?) and apply with an airbrush.

My wife likes the isobaric concept! She believes the living room is for family, not speakers. :confused: I'm reading up on isobaric cabinets and really appreciate you telling me about it. Also appreciate the information on the paint.

Here's the update on where things are at.

1. I've been cleaning the drivers. The 2410's have a foam pad in the rear cover that deteriorated. When I opened the back covers, there were black particles all over. :( I did get this all cleaned up. I believe this is a damping material and will have to replace it. Anyone have suggestions on what to use?

2. After playing with WinIDS for many hours, I've concluded that building a 5 cubic ft box tuned to 40 hz and using the 2225's will give the best results until I can build a sub. In fact, the program really confirmed that the 4647 enclosure is quite good. I am looking at changing the number of ports to either 1 or 2. Also, the 1/2 inch lip on the front will go. Cherry veneer with claro walnut accents/edges keep coming to mind! I've been looking for information on the internal bracing. Does anyone know where there's information on this?

I really recommend that anyone building speakers play with WinIDS and, if you don't already have drivers, look at the response curve on 2221's, 2234, LE15.

Once I have the bracing figured out, I'll post some drawings.

When playing around in WinISD, remember to check cone excursion. You can vary the power until you reach maximum cone excursion. Then you will have to check maximum air speed in vent at the maximum power. Keep velocity below 17 m/s, lower is of course better. With larger longer port you will decrease air velocity.

I've run numbers for two, four inch ports. WinIDS says they will be 5.37 inch depth. Vent mach came out to .04. This venting should leave room for different tuning options, in the event that I change drivers. Tuning to 35hz would only require 7.91 inch depth. I played with one port, but suspect getting a larger diameter tube might be difficult. Now I can work out the layout of the baffle, assuming there will be a brace in the center going to the back of the cabinet. :bouncy:

I found a thread with some information on the bracing for the 4507 (same as the 4647). http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...oxes-for-2225H. I'm surprised that JBL didn't put more bracing in these cabinets. Probably wouldn't hurt anything if I add bracing.

Off to the drawing board!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldcountryJim

I'm surprised that JBL didn't put more bracing in these cabinets. Probably wouldn't hurt anything if I add bracing.

Off to the drawing board!

---

I am sure it is about cost and weight. The more bracing the better. Use a stiff material for your bracing... MDF is not the best choice.


Widget

Hi, I made a pair of S7 knock-off's back 40 years ago when I stopped playing in a band. The D130's I had from a dual showman with 175 potato-masher horns. JBl sent me nice CABINET DRAWINGS (2'x3'x1') and if I can find them I will scan them for you.

They suggested lengths for the pair of 4 inch dia. ABS pipe. I believe they are each 4" deep. The only detail I couldn't do was recess the front loaded woofers so they were flush with the 15 ply Finland birch baffles. I thought that was overkill.

I ended up adding 2405 tweeters with 3105 crossovers wired from the high outputs of the 1200 hz crossovers when I could afford it (after college). I remember mounting them 180 deg. out and having a stream of hf. sound 12" wide from the floor to the ceiling.

yes, I would like subs (18") but at what loudness level would my little house and my old ears stand it. They now reside in my attic (pointing downwards) because they were deemed too large for the family room floor.

Well, it was 1974 a mere 38 years ago. I didn't remember the 2 and 4 woofer options. wow!

Wow! Those are some old plans! The bracing is interesting and very much along the lines of what I would add to my cabinets. The tuning of the enclosures in your plans is interesting too. The cabinets are tuned lower than I expected and, if I'm reading this correctly, the resonance that you are supposed to perceive is higher. Did you put the 2405's off center? I remember reading that high frequency drivers are often placed to maximize separation between channels. I am planning the right and left cabinets to be mirror images.

I should clarify that my need to keep the cabinet size limited is not driven by floor space, but rather, my spouse's concern that the speakers will become the focal point of the room. I have a Sunn 215BH bass cabinet (JBL loaded) in the garage and she doesn't want anything that size, or even close, in the house. I think she's OK with the 4647 size, if its veneered and looks like a home speaker. To keep everyone happy I'll have one-off cabinets based on the the 4647. I knew there would be compromises, for engineering and domestic reasons. :)

I'm hoping to post some drawings soon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldcountryJim

I should clarify that my need to keep the cabinet size limited is not driven by floor space, but rather, my spouse's concern that the speakers will become the focal point of the room.

---

Maybe you can get your wife to pay for another pair of 2225 to make isobaric alignments?

The isobaric concept lost favor when the need for a second set of 2225's came up. This project started because I needed to clean the garage. No new speakers! :crying:

I'm now looking at the cabinet materials. Plywood with with cherry veneer is available and I'm wondering if that is better than particle board. Baltic birch would be preferable. Does anyone know if plywood is an acceptable alternative to the particle board?

Birch plywood is probably the best material you can find.

Check out Some photos of my 4345 clones. If you need inspiration :-). You can come quite close with an ordinary router.

If your spouse has opinions about the size of your speakers, you can get deeper bass with the same box size. Since the 2225 is a pro driver with strong motor and high VAS you will need a big cabinet to get deep bass.

I did mirror the baffles (left/right) so the mid-range driver locations furthest apart for separation. The 2405 slot tweeters send the high frequencies evenly around the room and could go on the inside.

Since all speakers are installed from the front with tee-nuts, I dado'd a groove in all four sides to receive the baffle and back. Leave a 1/4" reveal at the back and 1/2" recess at the front for the grille cloth fame. The 3/4" front and rear exposed edges need to be veneered in birch unless you want to showoff the lock-miter joint or veneer everything. I did straight (45 deg.) miters with 2x2 pine glue-blocks front to rear.

The thing I liked was the baffle to back bracing on all midpoints of the sides (and the 1x3 pine braces across the back). Maybe the Sun had more bracing than the Showman cabinets I copied (6" o.c. screws). The front to back braces really made the baffle, weakened by the speaker cut-outs, rigid. The ribs across the rear panel were effectively making 3- 1'x2' panels instead of 1- 2'x3'.

For sound reinforcement I think the idea was to get the most speaker surface area in the smallest cabinet and lowest weight. Increasing to 18" deep would be better for bass, but so would a bass reflex cabinet.

I've finally got some plans and graphs to share. The graphs are from WinISD and show the SPL and gain for components in a 5 cubic foot box.

I've added K130's to the list of possible components, as I have one and a D130F reconed with a K130 kit. I understand the specification follows the cone if the motor is the same. Originally, I didn't include these because I thought the E130 would be smoother. Not so! My initial intent is to use the 2225's, but perhaps later add a sub and install the K130 or E130.

I got curious what enclosures the 2403 was used in and searched. That brought me to the EN5 low frequency enclosure. http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/l...nclosures2.pdf The recommended components are what I've got, although no specific mid driver was recommended. :bouncy: I believe the 2205 was a predecessor of the 2225 and the response curve is close to what I'm getting out of WinISD for my cabinet. Because I want to put the smith horn on top, I'll continue developing my box design. At least I'm pretty sure I'm on the right track! :)

Here's the preliminary plans. I'm still working out details on the joints, as I want walnut on all the corners and also to round them over on a 1/4" or 3/8" radius. The port and 076 locations could still change, but the 4 inch ports will allow for higher or lower tunings. I'll initially tune to 40hz.

The bracing where the panels meet will probably be 1X1 hardwood and has not been added to the drawings. The 1X3 side bracing will continue to the back which will have the same overall dimensions as the baffle. I think the top/bottom will have a single 1X3 brace in the center from front to back. There will also be a brace from the baffle to the back panel.

More to come soon.

I'd offset the 15 to one side of the box (to help with standing waves), use 2x4 (old school) bracing.

Good point Maxwedge. Standing waves, those pesky constant zones of high and low pressure when the length of a sound wave is a whole or fraction of the distance from the reflective surface (back panel or walls in the room). :banghead: I've been thinking of using R19 to help dampen the effect and add virtual volume, but yes, off-setting the woofer can help. I've redrawn the baffle so many times that I've finally made paper cutouts of the drivers and ports!

If I use 2X4's, I'm a little concerned about the volume consumed and whether the virtual volume from the insulation will be enough to compensate. A 2X4 is really solid though. In the past, 2X2 and 2X4 were the stock choice for bracing my cabinet builds. But, those were bigger cabinets. I may have to see if there's meaningful comparison of 2 by stock versus a smaller unit of dense hardwood. The goal is making the panels rigid and joints solid.

Designing from the ground up really makes one appreciate the efforts the folks at JBL put into their products and the efforts of other DIYer's.

Remember 2x4, 2x2 1x3 ect isn't really spec, it's less. I'm sure if the cab is smaller, less bracing is in order. Real 2x4 = 1 3/4 x 3 3/4. Regardless, I like to use a 2x4 T brace at the top of the woofer across the baffle to the back wall of the cab. Where the leg of the T hits the back, I put an approx 12" square piece of 3/4" ply to spread the load on the back panel. This really stiffens up the cabinet. :)

Maxwedge,

You are absolutely right that the bracing from the baffle to the back should be substantial and well supported. 1 X 3 would be less than adequate for this. The 4647 cabinets also had a brace from side to side, but no braces across the sides. I think bracing the sides like the EN5 will be the way I go. The goal is to make them rigid. If they have any give, I can add a cross brace later.

I've been thinking about standing waves since your post. They can cause a woofer to sound muddy and poorly defined. I've finally decided that my box's internal dimensions are based on the 4647 and the JBL engineers probably dealt with the issue. I really won't know until I fire them up.

I've revised the baffle design, offsetting the drivers and ports. The attached image shows the approximate measurements. I'll layout the baffle and check it in full size before cutting any wood. All panels will fit on two 5' X 5' baltic birch plywood sheets. They are $55 locally. The JBL 2410's and 'Smith' horns will sit on top of these cabinets.

I've begun cutting the walnut for the horns. The upper and lower panels will be made up of glued up panels to reduce the chance of warping and cupping over time. The vanes will either be walnut or cherry. Hope to have pictures soon.

There's an article in a thread that discusses the horn design and has some useful information. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-me-design-one! Bob Smith's article is embedded. I notice in his article that there is no vertical tapering of the horn at the mouth as in the 2397. Additionally, Bob states the vane shape/dimension is not critical except at the low frequency of the horn. I'm considering altering the vanes and the mouth based on this information. Does anyone have strong opinions on the shape of these horns at the mouth? How would keeping the top and bottom flat all the way to the mouth affect the sound? Westlake puts a straight angle on the mouth, close to a 45 degree taper. Is this better for a diffraction horn? I have a few days before these decisions have to be made. Any input will be appreciated.

I've cut the parts for the 2397 clones and will work on the final shaping and assembly this weekend. Finally building something! :bouncy: I'm working on a mounting assembly for the 2410's. This should be a single unit and will be made from the claro walnut.

I've attached pictures to show the progress.

Now that looks cool!:thmbsup:

Maxwedge, thanks for the encouragement! I'll need it to get through all the sanding!

I picked up the baltic birch plywood today and plan to start the cabinets over the weekend. Also, I ordered some figured cherry veneer that should come next week. :bouncy:

I've been unable to work on the speakers for a little while, but got a couple hours in today. I'm just posting a couple pictures taken this morning of the components. I had the K130's out to check the layout, so that's why they are in the pictures. I'm setting up to cut the lock-miter joints. Once that's done, it should go fairly quick. The roll in the background is the figured cherry veneer. I'm planning to use Heat lock on the veneer. Has anyone used this product?

Looks very nice indeed.

If you havn't cut holes for the ports yet. Placing them close to the floor will make the boxes go a bit lower.

You can also use hornresp to simulate driver placement in box, if you place the ports at the bottom. I did that for a box I am building, and the best result was when placing the driver in the middle of the baffle.

Hi More10,

The baffle is not cut yet. It was just one of those weekends that I should have skipped trying to make progress on my project.

I downloaded Hornresp, but didn't get far with it either.

If I understand you correctly, moving the ports closer to the floor may improve low end. Is this boundary loading? I remember reading that you can get boundary loading if the port is no more than 1/4 the length of the sound wave at the port's tuned frequency from the boundary (wall/floor/ceiling) and in an un-interupted plane abutting the boundary. A 40 hz wave is 28.15 ft so the critical distance should be 7 ft. (speed of sound 1126/40 = 28.15/4 = 7.3) But if it affects frequencies above tuning the distance would be smaller. At 100 hz the distance drops to 2.8 ft.

I remember wondering about this when I looked at the ports of the JBl 4647. The ports are pretty far from the floor.

I'm booked up for the next couple of weeks (no woodworking), so I'll have time to ponder this before cutting any holes.

Your input is appreciated.

This is not boundary loading. If you are very close to the floor the floor will act as a continuation of the port. Speakers with a slits port at the floor is using this.

Boundary loading is something different. One problem with winisd is that it doesn't calculate the effect of boundary loading. However Hornresp will. Ill pm you some hornresp pictures when I get back from work tonight.

I know some folded horns used the walls to extend the horn, so I'm very interested in what you are saying about ports. I look forward to hearing from you.

I just wanted to post some updated pictures of the Smith horns. Hope this is helpful to someone else wanting to build a set. The rug is on my back patio, so please don't think I keep a messy house. :)

Those horns are beautiful! What is the cutoff frequency?

Nice work man!

Cutoff should be close to 800hz. The size, angles of the horn are based on the JBL 2397, which is 800hz. The shape of the mouth is different, as it doesn't flare vertically. I used the straight design from the original "Smith Horn." That horn did have a narrower horizontal projection and was supposed to cutoff at 750hz. I'm not fully satisfied with my calculations, but I'm pretty sure its close to 800hz. Its got a 130 degree horizontal dispersion and is 1 inch on the inside from top to bottom. Radius is 14 3/8 inches (after sanding :D). The throat of the driver actually sits 7/8 inch behind the center of the radius.

Thanks for the encouragement from everyone.

Well, after playing with hornresp for some time, I couldn't come up with an improvement to the porting. Actually, I just wasn't confident my skills with it. So, I moved forward with the plan I had.

Heat lock works well for the veneer. I've done the baffles and will do the remaining work once the cabinets are glued up.

I'm using 4" ABS for the ports. The front to back brace will be 2X stock rather than the 1X in the picture. The corner bracing is hardwood, so its smaller. Originally, the joints were to be lock mitered, but I got a lot of tear out. So, I decided to mortise the panels. Here's pictures of the parts assembled for a dry fit. I still need to drill for the screws and route the back for the x-overs. Progress!

I wanted to post pictures of the final result, so here they are. I tried the 2225's, but found the mids from the K130's were just too nice to let go of. So, the K130's are in them. I've also decided to add a sub and bought a Yamaha home theater unit with a built in crossover for the sub. I just need to build the sub now.

Response is very good, but starts rolling off around 50 hz. I'm surprised at how much is there, given the modeling in WinISD. Vocals and acoustic instruments sound awesome! Very clear and full!

On a side note, my daughter's high school drama class received a gift of a concert sound reinforcement system from an estate. I've been asked to help sort out what's good and to upgrade the drama departments sound system. There's a lot of JBL, Altec, EV and Gauss components. Its been in storage for 15 years and some stuff is junk, but there's a lot of good stuff. We'll probably sell off most of it, as its just too much for the intended room. I'll start another thread when we get going.

Sorry it took so long to post, I actually just got the speaker grills done. :o:

Very nicely done!! :applaud:

My only thought would be that unless you're squatting on the floor when listening, you might want the 076 up a bit higher off the floor, but I'm not there to hear them . . . and I've never owned the cat's eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BMWCCA

Very nicely done!! :applaud:

My only thought would be that unless you're squatting on the floor when listening, you might want the 076 up a bit higher off the floor, but I'm not there to hear them . . . and I've never owned the cat's eyes.

---

I think I'd want the entire system on a short stand, but even as is... very cool! Congratulations!


Widget

Very nice build! :applaud:

I'm envious as I have no carpentry skills whatsoever.

Regards, Ron

Of all the horns I tried, I must say my favorite were the JBL 2397 horns - I had pair built by a fellow forum member and well as westlake like horns I bought on e-bay.

In my application - they were my favorite! And I have no idea why I sold them.

I've tried:
1) Klipsch 400 horns.
2) ALK Eng. - 1" Tractrix horns
3) Greg Roberts 2" Vtrac horns
4) JBL 2307 horns
5) Woody Yuichi 290 horns.
6) Smith Horns (2397 horns).

The most beautiful were the Yuchi horns - and I think had I used them for their entire bandwidth capabilities (500hz - 20Khz) - they might have been my favorite.

But in my applications the horns were being used from approximately 1Khz - 10khz - and in that range, the Smith horns were my favorite.

And I loved them simply because - no matter how loud I turned my system, they was no "honky-ness" / they were effortless / there was no straining of any sort - I just loved them.

I have yet to try circular horns so can't speak about them much.

Congrats on your build!

Thanks to everyone for the encouragement.

I'm planning to put the speakers on three inch walnut stands. Its just that the wife just keeps coming up with chores! The 076's are present standing or sitting. Its not so much that you hear them as the speakers become transparent. Voice and instruments sound like the musicians are in the room. I really hear the timbre and dynamics. The high hat doesn't sound like 1st graders making an ssssss sound. Cymbals sound like . . . cymbals. Once when watching a BluRay video something fell in the movie and I thought it was in the room! :) So, I think putting the speakers up 3" will be enough.

The smith horns are impressive in many ways. There's no beaming of mids. I don't have any way to objectively measure them, but the whole system seems balanced, smooth and does not induce ear fatigue (that's what I call it) when some frequencies are over emphasized. Amazingly consistent through most of the room. The speakers don't sound loud even when pushed to the point the floor is vibrating. For the moment at least, I'm hooked on the smith horns!