Printable View
I am going to check out a set of Klipsch La Scala's tonight and would like to know what to expect soundwise. The guy that has them is NOT an audio guy and I would probably just get to hear them thru a cheap surround amp. Anyways, of course i am a JBL guy;) , but speakers of this caliber are not available in my area too often. If they are in good shape, what would be a good price to offer. He thinks that he paid $1500 or so for them 20 years ago.
Isn't that Klipsch La Scala? I dont think Altec made La Scalas.
Anyone else?
:)
LOL......I changed it. Been a long day:banghead:
On the used market Klipsch La Scalas tend to go for $400-$1200 depending on location, finish, and condition.
They are a very compact (24" X 24" X 36") fully horn loaded system that is extremely sensitive... one watt will send you from the room if you are anywhere near normal... they have a strong following and have their own unique sound... you may decide you no longer like JBLs and become a Klipsch fan or you may hate them... they are a bit too opinionated for my taste and have little bass below about 50-60Hz... equalized and with proper subs three of them plus a pair of Klipsch Heresys could make a pretty stunning HT however.
Widget
So, what kind of speakers are they?
Thanks.
;)
It is a 15'' 3way with a Midrange Horn and the tweeter horn depending upon age was probebly made by EV.
Almost forgot the 15'' is in a folded design.
They have the ability to pin your ears back 104 db @ 1 watt per metre.
Have fun
Michael
They are a very brash speaker that beam badly and have no bass. I would have to say they are one of the worst loudspeakers I have ever heard.
Tell us how you really feel! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
John
I have heard statements like this before. You have never heard them set up correctly and assume that they are all crap because someone did not know what they were doing. Feed them with a tube preamp and a tube amp or good SS or digital and they will just sing. My K Horns were never harsh at all when set up right. Same for my Belles. They are also increadably detailed. You will hear subtle detailes that were never heard before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
I have a pair of B&W N801's that sound awesome at home. At the local dealer, their 802D's ($12,000) sound like crap because they are not set up correctly. Shoudl I assume that all B&W 802's are junk?
You had them unplugged then.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by L100t Owner
I'm glad you like your Klipsch but don't assume someone who dosen't like them is too stupid to hook them up right. The tube amp band-aid only goes so far. The horn dispersion is what I find wrong with heritage Klipsch. Paul Klipsch also threw the baby out with the bath water to get horn loaded "bass".
I think the KLF series was somewhat better. The Epic series are the best Klipsch speakers I have heard but they aren't as dynamic.
I just read the harsh part. Didn't say you were too stupid to hook them up right. The dispersion may be a problem. Klipsch had a design for a center speaker, meaning that there is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
However, I have heard many say they sound so harsh and horrible and they really do not. Just need the right source, which seems to be tubes or, surprisingly, digital amplification. Mine were outstanding when teh system was dialed in.
http://denver.craigslist.org/ele/189789315.html
not affiliated, etc....
The Klipsch LaScala is IMO one of the worst sounding speakers ever made, only the Klipsch Heresy matches it for Skilsawlike sound.
I owned a couple of sets back in the day when all I cared about was reproducing UFO and Rush records at 120db levels and they did that well enough.
The speaker's flaws are a rough tweeter with limited highs, an overly directional midrange horn (a LaScala sounds much better IMO&E when the stock mid horn is replaced with a wide dispersion EV SM-120A mid horn) and a lack of bass. The result is a midrange heavy tonal balance that can set one's teeth on edge and a sound like one of those hand-cranked air-raid sirens from a WW II movie.
Some people like the speaker (you can find people to like almost any damned thing) and some use colored electronics that EQ the sound to their liking. I recently heard LaScalas driven by an Audio Note 300B SET amp and they still sounded like LaScalas---like Hell, in other words.
Geez, looks like it is either you guys either love them or really hate them! THe owner never called back last nite with an answer :bs: . I would atleast like to get them, listen to them and if I despise them, I will have good trading/selling stock;) . I also know of a set of VOTT's, but the guy would need alot of begging to sell them. :banghead:
Jeff----To be fair the LaScalas do have the vitues of excellent clarity and dynamics. However IMO these virtues can be found in other horn speakers with far better tonality, several Altecs and JBLs come to mind.
Also, I think that Klipsch Cornwalls and Khorns, with their deeper bass and more robust tonal balance sound far better than LaScalas.
As you noted if you don't like them you can sell them easily enough, perhaps to one of the guys at the Klipsch forum who will spend the next year changing drivers, crossovers and horns in an attempt to make them sound good. Like the guys who end up with a so-called "LaScala" with an Altec 288-1005 midrange, a JBL tweeter and a big JBL sub.
There is also a 12" version I heard yrs ago and it would peel paint from the walls, but I found it not very musical without a sub!
Ron
I agree the La Scala is a harsh sounding speaker. It was originally designed as a public address speaker. Its sound would chase the public away. Ive had Klipsch speakers for 50yrs & the La Scalas are at the bottom of the list for home use.;)
what is the best then?
Mark
Most Klipsch fans would likely call the Klipschorn the ultimate speaker... the Cornwall is likely their most neutral speaker from the Heritage line.Quote:
Originally Posted by opimax
Widget
Thanks
Let me add or rephrase what non heratige lines are better than others?
And I have read/heard the La Scxalas were beter sounding than the Belles because the speaker was too thin, xover too high. i have aslo heard if you are not a Klipsch sound fan the Cornwalls might be the best choice.
When i got my 250TIs , the seller had his Khorns hooked to a 30w tube amp. he only played some blues from the 40's so it was hard to tell. He didn't even have them corner loaded. We used the same connection to verify my 250s and the difference in bass was large. The difference in effeciancy was even larger than anticipated
They seemed like very nice speakers but it just wasn't a good situation and we only listened for 2-3 minutes. That beaming comment although not fully appreciated was maybe shown by how much the sweet spot mattered on them, that was the only fair "complaint". Oh and they are much larger in person than I thought.
So how about a quick rating of the non heratige speaker lines?
Thanks
Mark
How 'bout taking this to the Klipsch forum... :blink:
HUH?Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy
The opinions would be BIASED over there.... :p
I thought this was the appropriate place ??? I wouldn't ask if I thought this was incorrect, my apologies
Mark
Feel free to ask....I own both JBL & Klipsch products...Dont let the Intelligencia here intimidate you. ;)
Intelligencia? :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maron Horonzakz
I don't think Grumpy was scolding anyone... he made a very good suggestion. The people on the Klipsch forum know much more about La Scalas and the like than all but a handful of folks on this forum. I think it is best to ask for opinions at both places... I doubt anyone over at the Klipsch site will call the La Scalas harsh... I used to have a pair... I loved them... but only in concept, form, and for nostalgia reasons... sonically I did think they were a bit hard to take, especially with their lack of bass. I haven't heard the new iteration of the La Scalas... I would expect that they still need a sub, but I would expect that they have tamed them a bit.
Recently I have been lurking over at the Klipsch Forum a fair amount... and have found it to be a very good resource... they have some very informative participants... much like we used to. I also like the way it is laid out with their crap Best Buy lines segregated from the more interesting discussions.
Widget
I knew Paul Klipsch on a personal basses....Yes the La Scala was indeed designed for Public adress. It also came as a ruggidized version with a different woofer..... We should be more hospitable to any one making a civil question. Shoeing people off did not seem friendly to me,,, I travel both sites. Wonderful people on Lansing & Klipsch sites. I learn from both. I feel that i can give valid replys to members on both sites.;)
Intelli-what? :rotfl:
Hi Maron,
I just thought a more useful answer regarding a Klipsch Heritage comparo
could come from the bunch over there. I've coexisted with older Cornwalls and
currently have a nice walnut pair of mid-70s Khorns sitting in my living room
(not nearly the depth of your Klipsch experience, but a perfectly happy one,
nonetheless).
When the Klipsch-JBL comparison stopped, I figured it was time to offer up
an alternative channel.
Sorry if my less wordy comment wasn't taken as intended... Nature of
electronic communication. Anyone want to talk about my Acoustats?
;) (I don't really, but they do cool imaging tricks)
-grumpy
Well, I will get to pick them up on thursday(gloat) and I will see how I like them in my enviroment. As I stated before, if I like em', I will keep em'..........if not, they go to the trading block:blink:
Cool. With the right source material, those things should kick serious butt.
Make sure your preamp is quiet...
-grumpy
Since so many Altec and JBL fans are hornys it seems fitting enough to talk a little Klipsch here.
Jeff,Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff M
If you get them for $800 or so and they are mint, you will be able to get rid of them easily. In the next few months, prices will rise and demand will go up quite a but. Happens every year.
Honestly, I have never heard the La Scalas, but I owned K Horns and currently own Belles and Heresys, as well as a K Horn/JBL project that is unbuilt. My K Horns sounded great with a digital crossover that allowed me to adjust each driver. The Heresy also does quite well when it is either on the floor as it was designed to be, or the crossover is adjusted to attenuate the midrange and tweeter. When tuned right, Klipsch speakers really do sound very good, especially for the drivers that they have.
The comments about changing horns is true. A lot of folks over at Klipsch change to JBL drivers and Altec horns (myself included - my project speaker is a Speakerlab Bass bin, and Jbl 2470 midrange drivers and 2404 tweeters).
I would say CF4's are the best Klipsch I have heard. They are not quite as dynamic but are much smoother and don't have as much of the in your face sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by opimax
KLF30s and 20s are more dynamic but brighter. I owned a set for a year. I thought they were too lean and beamy. A different tweeter might help alot. They are a very good rock speaker. They seemed to sound better at 85-95dbl. A little messy at higher volumes and thin at lower volumes. I personally think they were the last of the "real" Klipsch. If a guy modded them they would probably be really nice.
Synergy and Reference series are more refined but not dynamic. They sound more like cone and dome speakers. They are ok if you don't want or like real horns. I like horns to handle down to at least 750hz so I didn't care much for them. Cone midrange always sounds slow to me. Klipsch also overrates the efficiency of the new models, subtract 3-5db. If you love cone and dome speakers these might be the best Klipsch.
Heritage, I have heard Lascalas/Belles and Heresey. They were not for me.
But the guys on planar forums will tell you maggies can rock.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
Yes all hornies must stick together....Just because the La Scalas might not sound as well as we like they should not be thrown out, Modifications can be made. To make them to sound sweeter. Start with the K77 tweeter replace with JBL 2404 or baby cheek Beyma. Bass modification have also been made.:D
Shuster.....Maggies? planner? I can piss louder than low efficient planners.:biting:
Shane , thanks for answering. 1 last question is how do the KSF sound and compared to the KLF? including effeciancy...same?
Thanks
Mark
I always love these arguments. Reminds me of the Ford v Chevy benchracing of my youth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
Just a thought. Any given high quality speaker, if set up properly, will sound very good. I have heard Maggies set up with very powerful tube amps that sounded just awesome, especially on female vocals. My K Horns sounded awesome with the right equipment. I have B&W N801's that have a tough impedance curve and not very efficient but they are very dynamic set up with very powerful Bryston monoblocks (900 wpc at 4 ohms).
Different flavors but all good. Right now I own Klipsch Heritage (many pairs), JBL's (monitors, compression drivers and some consumer junk), B&W's (2 pair) and Maggies. They are all different, but all have good qualities.
I think that this is why every forum swears by their particular flavor. Right now, my "favorite child" is the N801's, but that may change. Who knows.
Chris
I know. The Magneplanar guys think they sound great with rock. I don't. 1400w to them and you can still have a conversation while they are playing. They are great with little girl and violin music. The Ramones and AC/DC sound terrible through them. The electric guitars sound very fake. My point was you have to take a forums bias into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maron Horonzakz
I owned the ref35, ksf10.5, klf20s and klf30s. The KLFs have much greater efficiency, around 5-10db more. The KLFs are a bigger speaker and have a bigger sound. They are voiced with the older Klipsch sound. The KSF sounds less harsh but gives up the snap and dynamics.Quote:
Originally Posted by opimax
The KLFs are A grade in certain areas and D- in others.
The KSFs were C all around. Not bad, not great.
If you have any more specific questions feel free to ask.
Good point! ...and obviously that of the poster as well... I haven't listened to that ear bleeder music in decades. I definitely prefer my horn system to my friend's TOTL Maggies... or another's Martin Logan CLSs, but I'd go with either of those two planar systems over most of the horn systems I've heard. I guess I listen to too many violins and girlie music.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
Widget
Mr. Widget, what horn system are you using? I did a search for Widget horns but didn't find much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I like big horns for the large surface area with low excursion. Excellent dynamics and a "fast" sound due to the stop-start-stop time. Alot of guys like them for the controlled directivity but I don't. I think it sounds lean and "pushed" so I tend to like wider dispersion. I would rather take the wall bounce instead of having the music on a laser beam. The high efficiency is a nice bonus but not the main strong point.
Cone and dome speakers sound ok but have too much compression and sound "slow" to me. I still have BOTL maggies that I don't use much. I listen to a very wide variety of music and they only sound great with certain music types.
Anybody heard any big horns that have more of a cone and dome dispersion pattern? The vintage ones aren't that great on post 90's music and thats mostly what I listen to.
I am listening to a pair of 4-ways that I designed... they use TAD components up top and a Sub1500... the system is tri-amped with SETs up top, a pair of Pentode KT88 based 200wpc mono blocks between 50Hz and 800Hz and a 600wpc SS amp on the subs... it'll pin your ears back if desired, but Joni Mitchell and Yo-Yo Ma don't need all that slam... the Be drivers do give you all the "rosin on the bow" you could ever want and the system is as neutral as a TOTL cone and dome system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
I do on occasion play a variety of music at "realistic" levels... but I never did develop a taste for ear splitting guitar music... that powerful midrange information simply hurts.
Widget
Maggie’s
Every pair I have heard have been faulty
Who would make speakers from fridge magnets?
Recently I tried a big tractrix midrange horn with a high efficency 6 inch cone driver on a mouth of 55 cm diameter in the range of 500 Hz to 4 kHz, which certanly has quite a directivity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
I pointed two of these horns on a reflector like that of a Paragon and I got a wide spread sound in a greater audience, the whole room was filled with sound. It was amazing to have the liveliness of a high efficient horn with a wide spread sound stage.
___________
Regards
Peter
Since we have started talking about plane sources and bouncing sound of panels I thought this may be of interest.
I recently attended a Wellington Audio Society meeting where we met at the Wellington Cathedral.
Now this is a great huge concrete building with a huge volume and atrocious acoustics for speech.
The reverb time is very long measured in seconds.
In this they have installed line arrays.
They are controllerable by up to 1 degree by software.
The results are stunning speech is clear through out the entire seating area and the acoustics of the environment for the massive pipe organ and choir are preserved.
I could not but help think that this demonstrates the importance of polar response of a speaker.
A bloke who lives close to me makes Ribbon speakers and sells them throughout or local community.
I have had a chance to listen to these in a domestic setting and it is quite disconcerting.
There is no top end….. Until you sit down.
Of course they are a line array and the directivity is extreme.
When you sit in the “seated” position the results are stunning, excellent dynamics.
He insists on sealed heavy bass enclosures which I think is a mistake and when you listen the crossover is obvious due to the different polar response of the woofer and the ribbon.
Someone else immediately picked up a crossover fault on a Piano recording (They play it)
Line arrays are very interesting; the same theory is used in cellular antennas (or any) and submarine sonar arrays.
Here in Wellington we have Peter Jackson’s Studio, Park Road Post where they mix things like Lord of the Rings and King Kong.
Now park road post was another outing and the “room” has won much acclaim as having the same acoustic response across the very wide mixing desk.
Here I will draw your attention to a AES article that states “at low frequencies the sound qualities of a audio system is dominated by the room” (Todd Welti and Allan Devanntier : Harmond international Industries)
They also propose that the traditional way of looking at rooms is wrong and instead of looking at a point in the room you should look at a “seated” area.
To finish of this train of thought: Park Road Post has typical JBL compression drivers and horns as found in a movie theatre and to quote the JBL agent “the room acoustics are so good that the deficiencies in the speakers are not noticeable”
Now my employee has the privilege of a 1Kw amp a Integra CD and a ancient pair of Altecs.
He paints houses for me, and it has become very obvious that room acoustics play a huge amount in how a speaker sounds.
I have got him past full Bass, Full Treble and loudness ON.
Speaker placement is critical to cover the whole house.
He has learned how to listen, has stacks of bass and you don’t hear it outside.
Of course when I EQ out 2242’s and the kids watch movies the neighbour’s house shakes.
It surprises me how much impact the "ROOM" can have and how what can sound awful can also sound great.
Depends on the room.
Worth a thought.
I cite again the Toole paper in the June AES Journal, 26 pages, as I recall.
He outlines the why and how it is only possible to "tune" for bass for a limited seating area in a listening room.
The next row back will experience it differently, invariably.
He also covers the importance of controlled directivity and power response.
The prespective is interesting - the applicability of system design for large performance spaces to typical listening rooms.
This paper alone is worth the price of AES membership.... :thmbsup:
In a big room controlled directivity is very important. In a very small room with a 8ft or less listening distance it's not as important and can sound too agressive. I like a 60x40 horn 15ft away but not 6ft.
Alot of very intelligent men have wrote very intelligent white papers. Some of the white papers contradict each other and very few take personal preference into account. When you design to make one aspect great you have to give something else up in return.
So true... and easily forgotten.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Shuster
Widget
Jeez, get it right... it 805B not the 1005 and two big JBL subs. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan
Stock the LaScala needs subwoofer(s). Also dialing back the mid-ranges output (and making it a bandpass crossover to avoid the 9kHz peak in some versions of the K55) help tame it quite a bit.
Shawn
First let me say I am a die hard JBL fan. But I have too disagree with you on the La Scalas. They sound better than lot of VINTAGEQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom Brennan
JBL speakers. Mine are up graded with the Bob Crites A/4500s x over CT 125 tweeters an i can ay they are a real joy to listen too. incredible dynamics , Timbre, detail. So natural sounding!!! Tube amp is the way to go with these. iv'e heard many JBL speakers that cant touch them. but wen you get into the higher end JBL Everest, 1400 Array, M2, Studio 590, K2 well there is no contest
Near the beginning of my audio journey, circa 1984, I heard the La Scalas and Klipschorns at a local dealer. I yearned for La Scalas, yet ended up with Klipschorns when that dealer, The Federated Group, lost their franchise and were blowing out all their remaining inventory. As I later came to realize, these systems were flawed by cheapo drivers and lack of time alignment, but damn they blew away everything else at the time in the ways that mattered to me! I have persued the goals of wide dynamic range and low distortion ever since, with all due respect and accolades to Paul Klipsch!
Hey man, you forgot the S3900s and S4700s! :D;):pQuote:
Originally Posted by 702retrotodd
Yeah, I'd say JBL Synthesis is better than Klipsch Heritage.Quote:
Originally Posted by 702retrotodd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Schell
Interesting. Many years ago when I was making custom systems for people we built a couple of K-horns for a customer in Nashville. Testing them initially they didn't sound so good, so I tweaked the x-over a bit which helped much. Customer replied after getting these - said he compared them with factory K-horns and said ours sounded better!
Two stories: first, when I began experimenting with the Klipschorns in my apartment I quickly discarded the top hood and placed the mid horn atop the bass section with the tweeter time aligned and correctly vertically aligned above the mid driver on some U-shaped wooden construction. State of the Art 1978, or so I thought.
Second, I had a couple of 20 something girls living in the apartment upstairs. One time they held a party which extended past 3AM. I was kept awake by the dancing. When they played the Stones' "Start Me Up" I cued up the same tune and blasted a few seconds of it at 110+dB on the Khorns. They got the message and the party was over!
Okay, one more story. The earliest marketed Klipschorns were two way, using a beautifully made radial upper horn with fiberglass upper and lower curved sides and wooden straight right and left sides. Some of these systems used the now-legendary Western Electric 713 compression driver, though most used the Jim Lansing D-175 which Mr. Klipsch held in high esteem. Hal Cox sold these in the store he was running at the time in San Francisco. When the three way Klipschorns debuted in the early 1950s, Hal ordered several for his store. They reportedly sounded quite inferior to the two way systems and Hal shipped them back to Hope Arkansas. He said that Paul Klipsch was gentlemanly and accepted the returns without complaint.
^ Well that's when there were more gentleman around. ;)
I'll take my Studio 590's over any Heritage speaker, and I've heard all but the Belle Klipsch.
They look good in cherry. Do you run them with a small tube amp or a big ss amp?Quote:
Originally Posted by LowPhreak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_72
While I like the sound of certain models, some years ago I grew tired of the care & feeding of tubes, after going through ARC Classic 120's, Mesa Baron, Golden Tube 40-watter, a Lazarus hybrid, and Audible Illusions M3A and ARC LS-25 pre-amps. Health issues have forced a serious downsize with my audio rigs in the past 10+ years however, so for now I'm using an HK3490 receiver modded by Stereo Dave's in OR. http://www.stereodaves.com/hk3490.php Don't laugh...it does a surprisingly decent job with the 590's until I can scrape up enough for something better, and I have a few SS models in mind that I think would work well with these.
Having just read the entire thread/debate on DynaMax's DIY subs for his E2's, I probably have better LF extention than E2's (!) in this room, ;). But I'm getting some room loading even with the overall size of 26.5' x 20', albeit an asymmetrical, not-audio-friendly lay-out. I'm sure glad I saved that extra $58,500. or so! :D Honestly though, the low-Q bottom end is very good, and the dispersion and imaging as well as vocal clarity, and virtually no listening fatigue after I EQ'ed down the 2.5dB peak at 8-9 kHz. Without hyperbole I can say that the 590's sound better in many ways important to me than for example, my old $4500. Nautilus 803's, and that's saying something at the 590's price.
On the cherry finish: it was nigh impossible to find a pair in cherry (I'm pretty sick of black audio gear, especially speakers). So I gave up on cherry's and had ordered black 580's originally, but they had cabinet damage from the factory. Ordered a replacement pair but it was also defective, and one foot had been torn from a cabinet from UPS mishandling. Long story short: at that point JBL customer service was useless, so I called Harman in CT and JBL Northridge...by then in a fairly annoyed mood. :banghead: Eventually, they "found" a set of 580's and 590's both in cherry, and made a better offer on either model to compensate for the hassle of the defective pairs, so I bought the 590's. All told it took over a month.
These pix are the day I got them, before they were properly set up. (Notice warning sticker since they're front-heavy) -
Attachment 63516
Attachment 63517
Attachment 63518
Attachment 63519
P.S. - sorry for the off-topic.
Well, thanks for the informative and detailed post! Plus the pics. They do look better in cherry, imo. I agree about tubes. Which is why I won't bother despite the poking and prodding by some here and on other forums. Well, I might have my Bryston 4BSST (not SST2) up for sale whenever I get around to upgrading my system. Let me know if you would be interested. In the meantime, they're dime a dozen on the used market.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowPhreak
That's pretty cool that they sound better than the B&Ws. I think JBL offers great value even with the higher end stuff!
Well, that sucks, but at least you got what you paid for in the end.
Thanks for the offer, Dave, I'll keep it in mind. I've always liked Bryston as well. An amp/pre-amp upgrade won't be in the cards for some time though, since it would cost at least a few grand for separates that improve much on the modded 3490, IMO, and I'd also want a separate tuner at least as good as this one.
If I had my way, I'd get an older Pass X250 and ARC LS-25 MkII (I could handle replacing a few 6H30's now & then :smthsail: ). I think those two would sound very good together on 590's, and then look at a custom network.
*sigh
You're welcome. The 4BSST goes for $2k and under used all day long. Oh ok, no problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by LowPhreak
Right I hear ya. Pass Labs and ARC is good stuff. You're probably right.