Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!
Good morning (French time),
I am a JBL listener since years (4311 - 4320 - 4333 and 4355) and I am reading this forum since several months now.
I also had several home made ALTEC speakers made of 411-8A woofer, 511 or 811 horns with a 806-8A driver.
I noticed quite a lot of complaints about lack of this, lack of that, willing to compare the dynamic and sound image of a 4343 / 4355, and so on.
I must say that I am working since 25 years in the amplifier market and I begin to have some knowledge’s about what an amplifier is.
You may not agree with me but I always thought that the quality of an amplifier is not only ascertained by sophisticated laboratory control methods.
One has to hear his performances, the human ear being the best of judges.
A sound is not only built up with technical specifications.
The only numbers I trust in are the signal to noise ratio (> 100 dB), the CMRR if you have a balanced input (> 80 dB) and the peak power!
Other numbers are just useless.
About distortion:
Add the distortion of the speaker, of the room and of your ear and you will be close to 3-4%. In such a case how important is the distortion of an amplifier? Nuts …
Damping factor:
I am not the author of this theory, but if the damping factor is > then 17, what ever the number is it has no significant meaning. Never forget that the damping factor is calculated at the “bottom” of the amplifier and do not include the wires and the impedance of the speaker at low frequencies. As a bass reflex speaker has a bigger impedance at low frequencies, the damping factor will raise immediately.
When an amplifier manufacturer argue that his amplifier has an enormous damping factor at 8 ohms and this is very good for bass restitution, and his amplifier handles easily a 2 ohm impedance, just divide by 4 this damping factor …
This is a 100% commercial number.
All those numbers and others do not make the sound quality!
There are things everybody ignores as I do, and they make an amplifier sound good!
The use of one brand of capacitors, the use of a type of capacitors, such quality of resistors, and so on is the basis of known things in the audiophile area.
After that, changing one component for an other can make an amplifier sound great, better or worse!
Let me give you several examples:
Change the bridge of your amplifier and the bass response can change radically; I did it just by changing a 20A bridge for 25A bridge from the same manufacturer and same bridge family (as I use a twin bridge in each channel for a 150W amplifier there is no relation between the needed amperes and what the bridges can deliver).
I made the same with an other brand and other models, it did not work the same.
Removing a limiter circuitry will enhance the micro information in the mids and high frequencies,
Changing an input potentiometer from one brand to an other, even if this potentiometer is set at 10 (wide open) it will change the tonality of your amplifier,
Since a year time that I now have the 4355 JBL speakers I made so many changes on my amplifier (same schematic, AB class, quasi complementary bipolar output transistors) I have now (and the job is not over and never will be) a new sound system:
I have all the low bass I was looking for,
I have more low mids,
There is no more agressivity (is it the good word) in the mids,
I have much more information in all the frequencies,
The high are also dam smooth and even more precise.
All what I did was to got the good settings in my amplifier.
This is perhaps the beginning of a long thread and I think it will be helpful for all of us and I hope I did not bore you too much with this message!
Re: Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!
"About distortion:
Add the distortion of the speaker, of the room and of your ear and you will be close to 3-4%. In such a case how important is the distortion of an amplifier?"
Quite... garbage in, garbage out. If you need more information on the relevance of amplifier distortion reference Dr. Matti Otala's work.
"Damping factor:
This is a 100% commercial number.
Yes and no, I think I understand what you are getting at, but it still "tells" you the output impedance of the amplifier and that can be a useful number. You may have noticed also that JBL often uses a parallel resistor across many of their bass drivers to "help" present a more linear load to a driving amplifier.
Re: Re: Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Giskard
About distortion:
Quite... garbage in, garbage out. If you need more information on the relevance of amplifier distortion reference Dr. Matti Otala's work.
I do not agree! No one can hear the difference between 0,1% and 0,00000001% of distortions!
It is the same for the memory of some components and so on…
Those are just arguments sellers try to “sell” you as being as a critical number, they are just fooling us.
If those numbers were that important, why do bulb amplifiers sound so smooth (perhaps a lack of dynamic and punch in the bottom note)!
Damping factor:
Yes and no, I think I understand what you are getting at, but it still "tells" you the output impedance of the amplifier and that can be a useful number. You may have noticed also that JBL often uses a parallel resistor across many of their bass drivers to "help" present a more linear load to a driving amplifier.
Once again I do not 100% agree with you.
It is a number that must be treated very carefully.
Having a big damping factor can improve the bass transient and linearity but it does not mean that if an amplifier has a big damping factor it will give you big bass.
Once again it is quite a lie the way many amplifier manufacturers are printing their characteristics.
All of them claim to have the best numbers and a great sound quality.
Sound quality is never a “translation” of good numbers, if it was all amplifiers would sound great, unfortunately a lot of them, even big brands sounds …
Very little play good music.
Re:Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!
I guess you are viewing all this from a Marketing standpoint and are fed up with the Marketing hype?
Yes, there does come a point where the published distortion figures are meaningless in real world application. However, amplifier distortion is a very real phenomenon, the various types of distortion, negative feedback, etc. Seriously, if you read various articles from/about Dr. Otala you might find topics of interest. He really didn't waste his life's time on amplifier distortion just so other people could come along and say "In such a case how important is the distortion of an amplifier? Nuts …" ;)
That said, I agree with you that "selling" an amplifier based solely on the virtue of some distortion figure some Marketing person read off an engineering report they had no business seeing anyway is pretty dubious :)
"It is a number that must be treated very carefully."
Why? It's not spooky or anything, despite what Marketing would have us believe. It's just a ratio. No Holy Grail, no Blessing from the Pope, just a ratio of two numbers, and quite probably meaningless to 98% of the people who read it...
"All of them claim to have the best numbers and a great sound quality."
Economic Capitalism? :D
"Sound quality is never a “translation” of good numbers, if it was all amplifiers would sound great"
I'll buy that! :)
Obviously we're on different pages though. I have zero interest in what the Marketing folks are churning out of their propaganda machines. Damping factor, or even better, output impedence, is real, and is valid, but I personally couldn't care less what some Marketing person is doing with the numbers.
Re: Re:Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Giskard
Obviously we're on different pages though. I have zero interest in what the Marketing folks are churning out of their propaganda machines. Damping factor, or even better, output impedence, is real, and is valid, but I personally couldn't care less what some Marketing person is doing with the numbers.
In such a case, what numbers "sounds" good for you, and why will they make an amplifier sound well, fine, great, gorgeous?
I have just built two amplifiers with exactly the same basis; the only differences will be the bridges, balanced input IC (INA134 instead of OPA27GP), potentiometer - one from somewhere and the other one from ALPS, and different input transistors (2SA1085 instead of BC490B).
What I can say is that the measures are the same, but what I hear is completely different!
One amplifier sounds if it was raining cats and dogs, the other sounds as if it was full sunshine.
I am “bargaining” with an international audio magazine to get them test benched and a full report printed from their chief engineer, after that they will lend them to a studio and ask them what do they feel out of those two amplifiers.
That is why, numbers are just numbers …. And none of them can explain why this amplifiers sounds so good or so bad!
Re: Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!
Ok, so you ARE bummed about the fact that "numbers sell" amps then :)
I guess now you know how many engineers and designers feel when their "numbers" might not appear as "good" as a competitor's yet their product sounds "better".
As for what numbers sound good to me. I don't listen to numbers. I listen to designers and engineers such as yourself who say things like:
"I have just built two amplifiers with exactly the same basis; the only differences will be the bridges, balanced input IC (INA134 instead of OPA27GP), potentiometer - one from somewhere and the other one from ALPS, and different input transistors (2SA1085 instead of BC490B).
What I can say is that the measures are the same, but what I hear is completely different!
One amplifier sounds if it was raining cats and dogs, the other sounds as if it was full sunshine."
That I can relate to. I think I see your point. If you told me your amp had a DF of 200 and THD of 0.001% I would probably just say "neato". When you say something like what is quoted above, then it piques my interest.
"That is why, numbers are just numbers …. And none of them can explain why this amplifiers sounds so good or so bad!"
Well..... I don't know what to say about this. People just like numbers..... It's probably best not to show them any numbers at all and just let their ears decide. What a concept.
So, now, what is the output impedance of your amp? :)
Re: Re: Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Giskard
That I can relate to. I think I see your point. If you told me your amp had a DF of 200 and THD of 0.001% I would probably just say "neato". When you say something like what is quoted above, then it piques my interest.
Please read the numbers, those are not from me but from several magazines who printed several test benches.
Frequency Response at 10 Watts: 15 Hz-60 000 Hz
SNR unweighted/weighted (BC490B): 98 dB/103 dB
Gain to 1 kHz - 8 ohms rated output: 31dB
Input impedance bal./unbal: 39/30/18 k-ohms
CMRR 40Hz/ 1 kHz/ 10 kHz (INA134): 84 dB/84 dB/78 dB
Rise Time: < 6 µs
Output impedance: 0,059 ohm
Damping factor 8ohms; 136
Distortion 1000 Hz/8ohms: 0,009%
IM distortion (SMPTE) at clip: 0,026%
What else can I say?
I can point a thread with full test reports but I want your agreement as a moderator (not other to think that this is just raw advertisement for what I am doing)!
Yea, interesting, Scott...
I've not had the opportunity to A/B too many set-ups yet, but to my ears, these QSC's would be very hard to beat. When I think I hear harshness in the highs, I swap sources and find it mix-related. Many producers, simply shouldn't be... ;)
The LF and ULF is extremely tight, and responsive, full. No smearing here (hear...?). I'd used four of these bad-boys in my FOH rack and they were lauded by all not too drunk to still critique. And, they simply use no current - never once blew a "20amp" circuit, with Soundcraft 24-channel board, 4 QSC's, 3 dbx 1231's, gates and comp/limiters. They run cool, and reliable. And, as Mike Caldwell posted, they are real easy on the back - they are virtually weightless. I used to set the PA up and park a chair in the sweet spot and just roll the CD's until Set time. Phenomenal imaging. (EV Eliminator mains).
So, I'll watch this Thread for other's experiences, but in the meanwhile, this 1,000 watt configuration has riveted my attention.
And, hey - Mr. Rummel! Next time through Chi-town, what say I taxi over and get an audition, hey? I would love to hear that creation. Wow.
Thanks,
Re: 1,000 watt addendum...
Quote:
Originally posted by boputnam
I omitted that in my bi-amp set-up I'm using, the QSC's are ...
I was reported from several customers that they do not sound, this brand and the other one, the king, as good as other “small” brands....
I do not say that those big names are crap, but for the money and the name they carry, they should be the best of what can be done, but it is not...
damping factar is important but not everything
I'm 4343B & Crown MA2402 user in japan trying to make my system be tight base sound. but, I'ts not so easy.
proberbly,amplifier is a Key.
Compared to another some amplifier,I think Crown MA2402 is better. The amp's D.F. ratio is 1000. but, it my be a only one aspect of the amp. That's not everything. because,amplifier K2 by crown have more greater D.F. ratio 3000. Is it more tight sound ? proberbly No! It's cofusing.
I'm thiking the best way to get tight sound from 4343B is to use multi-4amplifier system by crown MA2402 not 3600VZ. 3600VZ have a little worm sound. 4 means brige operation.
Speaker wires is important. A wire‚P‚T‚ƒ¶^‚ is easily compared from more grater guaged wires.Obiusly, smaller is better! but,I'ts one aspect too.:confused:
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This might be of interest
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Re: This might be of interest
Hola Alex puedo hacer algo por ti ?
It is not clear to me why you post here saying things about me when Dr. Gutsatz gave you my contact data, why you didn't ?
Let me know if there is something I can do...
What's wrong with my ortography ? WellI have veryfew time and I make many mistakes, Is that meaninful ?
Ok the post you read in my forum was based mainly in one guy opinion and personal evaluation of the amp, but let me tell you youmay know I sell also high end gear, wise high end not aristochart high end) well anyway I think PSS can beat many of the amps our there into Hi-Fi / audiophile tastes, I think brands like NAD, Rotel would have a hard task if sitting beside a PSS amplifier.
So anyway tell me What can I do for you ? If there is somenthing I can...
Why don't you call me?
+52 +55 55820413
Gettin' in real late on this one!
I've been using professional gear with my entertainment biz for over 24 years. Recently, I've mainly been using QSC MX and PLX series amps recently because they seem to offer the best quality and reliabilty for the $$. Very fond of Crown, also!
Are your amps being distributed in the St. Louis, MO area (USA)? If so, can you give me the name of a dealer? If possible, I'd lke to arrange a demo. :yes:
Thanks!
This message comes from JBL Dog :band:
Re: Gettin' in real late on this one!
Quote:
Originally posted by JBL Dog
Are your amps being distributed in the St. Louis, MO area (USA)?
This message comes from JBL Dog :band:
Unfortunately no ... Mexico is the closest country where our amps are distributed.
As you are not the first one willing to test one of our amplifiers, I can manage to lend from Mexico one amplifier to one of you.
Once the test is over, the only thing to do is sending the amp to the following person interested by testing it and so on till the last person sends it back to Mexico.
What do you think about this offer?
Re: Gettin' in real late on this one!
Maybe after JBL Dog and Audiobeer check one out they can send it to Mike Caldwell -> mikebake -> me? :)
Re: Re: Gettin' in real late on this one!
Quote:
Originally posted by Giskard
Maybe after JBL Dog and Audiobeer check one out they can send it to Mike Caldwell -> mikebake -> me? :)
As Alex Lancaster wishes to test an amplifier I will manage with our Mexican distributor to lend him one, then it can be sent to one of you and so on.
Who can organize it?
Perhaps opening a new thread?
It's just upon you ...