Building my dream system, need lots of advise!

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Originally Posted by JeffW

D8R2450SL or D16R2451SL

They are calling the 16 ohm version discontinued, not sure if that's official or not.

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Interesting. The 2450SL is still available and not too expensive. Might try that.

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Originally Posted by Kreativlos

Honestly, if you're not satisfied with your current setup, it might be a design issue in general. Your System doesn't please you because the drivers aren't fine. They're quite quite good actually. So if you seek something else sound-wise, you may try a different Speaker Design with some of the key elements of your old design you liked. OR drastically rethink you design and the room, that surrounds it.
I would probably go for route 2, but I like the Design itself a lot. I'm biased tho, since I listen to a three way with Fostex components, but same idea. 12 inch bass ported, horizontally wide dispersion horn and so does the tweeter. I love it, and I'll probably never go another way.
I think you should try the route 1 and go for something like the M2, maybe with a super tweeter on top. It's the evolution of your old design and may be the right choice for you. You will still get plenty dynamic and detailed sound with smooth response and great micro dynamics. Thats just the Horn and big woofer style thing with quality drivers, the rest is about integration and how well the imaging is!

Cheers

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As I mentioned in previous post. I am exploring STX825 horn with D2 (M2 driver). I am hoping it will give similar sound characters as the horns I have and have closer matching.

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Originally Posted by jmpsmash

Interesting. The 2450SL is still available and not too expensive. Might try that.

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actually, take that back. same availability issue that I pointed out. shop in FL only have one 2450SL diaphragm left in stock and I haven't found any available elsewhere. And while it maybe easier to find (maybe?) given how many ppl have it, it might end up be used or from someone extra stash.

seems like approaching deadend if not already one.

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Originally Posted by jmpsmash

Agree. They sound very good, but probably a bit beyond their prime and not in their best performance. I do like the sound of the combo, so much detail, microdynamic and smooth at the same time. Many friends who came and listen to them have commented that they are ranked some of the top they've heard. But personally living with them for a long time all the imperfections sticks out more than the perfections. And of course, there is the urge to continue explore and learn about what else is out there. And esp something within the modern productions.



I think I understand what you are saying. I never was able to control it. And as a result there is certain disconnect and incoherence in the transition. That, and also the issue with a 2405 combined with 2441 transition. When they are far time aligned, there is no hope of phase alignment at crossover. And even when time aligned, it was still not smooth enough. I am expecting the D2430K solve that problem with dual diaphragm.

great advise. I am still doing my research. plan is to try the STX825 first. see if I can work with the frequency variation. Then try the M2 one. Then I can decide which one to go with. I also learned a bit about the cabinet building and I think if I do decide to go with one of the two, I can build a new cabinet that will integrate the 2216ND1 and the horn into one neat package. Might end up with a 4367 clone, or M2 clone.

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There is a significant time / phase discontinuity with the woofer and the 2397 compression driver abs the 2405. That can be a potential problem on certain types of program material.

I used the 2397 about 20 years ago and compared it to several other alternatives.

In the end the 2123 with a 2307/2308 and the 2405 had the least objectionable issues and l discovered Jbl made a similar design. It turned out very well and l still use it. Set up correctly and with well chosen amplifiers you will mer to spend over $10,000 on a current Jbl system to match it. There are some cool derivatives using large format drivers and some dusted diagrams that people speak highly off.

Sometimes in the search for the holy grail of diy loudspeaker you come across an engineered Jbl design that just works. Such a design is beyond the capabilities of diy audio amateurs because the original designer had access to professional resources and made a number of prototypes before settling on the final design.

Some of the more contemporary Jbl designs are a cool clone idea for the audio amateurs but these designs in some cars are voiced for the Japanese market where different tastes exist for local markets.

So there are no guarantees on what to expect with commercial any design or your own diy design.

There are people who have come and gone with the notion of buying the most expensive soa Jbl drivers only to find the drivers being sold off later because they either lost interest in getting it together or some other reason. Getting a loudspeaker together is not easy and not to be taken lightly.

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Originally Posted by jmpsmash

As I mentioned in previous post. I am exploring STX825 horn with D2 (M2 driver). I am hoping it will give similar sound characters as the horns I have and have closer matching.

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Well, then good luck and please keep us up to date!:)

I got a pair of D2430K and a STX825 horn. Being brand new, the matching of the 2 D2430K are spot on.

I built a little enclosure for the STX825 horn so that I can place it securely. The STX825 horn is smaller than I expected. They look out of place sitting on top of the 15" cabinet. Measurement of the combo shows nearly 15dB dip to 20kHz.

I started with playing around using passive crossover. It was tough work to compensate for the drop. I referenced the 4367 crossover topology and played with it. In the end, it was not possible to get rid of the 15dB dip and I still get 5dB drop after 10kHz. The sound was ok but lacking airy as a result. At one point, I got the 2405 on top of the D2430K and it filled in with a lot of airiness. the 2405 is very smooth indeed. However, the 2405 made the imaging worse.

After that, I went to active crossover. I have been playing with passive for the past year so had to dig out the minidsp box and do all the firmware update as there was a new version of Dirac which was much more robust and easier to use. The result is surprisingly good. The imaging is spot on, everything just falls into place with time domain correction. Instruments that are really difficult to focus like cello/bass/piano forms a image that I have not heard before. I was quite impressed. However, the combo doesn't have the smoothness of the 2405/2441/2397 combo. Sounds a bit more harsh.

Now I just got a pair of M2 horns. These things are so solid. I thought it will be just a piece of plastic like the STX825 but they seem to have filled it with resin. I originally thought it will ring if it was just plastic but this definitely won't.

I haven't mounted it yet so I will report back after that.

If it sounds right, I am tempted to build something similar to M2. So far I have built only speakers that look like DIY. I have learned a lot in the past 2 yrs not only in speaker design, but also in woodworking. In order to deal with the room mode in my room, I built 2 12" subs that are walnut veneered. I want to build a matching pair of speakers for the M2+2216ND1. The first design posted by Anti K in his KM2 thread has the K2 design which I think look really nice. I might do something in that direction, but not K2 half circle shape, it will be rounded walls but have to be deeper to get more volume. This will be a fun summer!

I spent Saturday the past weekend listening to the STX825 horn. On Sunday I put together a temporary mounting for the M2 horn. Both using the same exact pair of D2430K. Unfortunately I only have one pair so I cannot A/B compare.

Using the D2430K alone with either STX825/M2 horn lens, and the same 2216ND1 below in a 2-way setup. There are a lot of similarities between the 2 but also a lot of differences.

The STX825 is more edgy, a bit sharper and harsher. However, it also means texture is a bit exaggerated. Normally with any other speakers, the violin section of the orchestra is just a glob of sound. The STX825 sounds like it is a group of instruments. Not to the point that one can point out each, it is not even possible in real life, but there is enough texture to not mush them up. The STX825 is really really sharp. Singers walking across stage can be very well pin point, and there are tons of space in between. However, that's at the expense of a bit too much harshness. At the end of the day, the ear can feel the fatigue.

The M2 is also sharp, but not as sharp. The overall presentation is a bit smoother, less edgy. Violin section is still detailed but not as much, singers are still separated but not pin point. However, I find the M2 horn to be easier on the ears and less fatigue.

That was the first impression.

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Originally Posted by jmpsmash

The first design posted by Anti K in his KM2 thread has the K2 design which I think look really nice. I might do something in that direction

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👍😎