Just wanted to share a 3 way project with lots of help and advice from Greg Timbers.http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6076/...0b4046e9_b.jpg
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Just wanted to share a 3 way project with lots of help and advice from Greg Timbers.http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6076/...0b4046e9_b.jpg
Tried the 2 way set up, but in the end, it ened up like this ...
4x 600W Bryston 7bsst2 direct into each of the woofers.
stereo 300W Bryston 4bsst2 for the top.
Pass Labs xvr1 for the 700Hz cut and fedhttp://farm7.static.flickr.com/6184/...c04e0ab1_b.jpg back into another xvr1 for a 150Hz woofer cut.
Okay, tell us about the wooden blocks. :)
Did you try them both on and off the blocks? (And how did you get them up there in the first place?)
There is no magic, but I always found that when lift the speakers a few inches off the ground, it cleans up the bass.
Something I learnt from the Japanese.
http://www.taoc.gr.jp/new_base.html
These are yoga bricks that I bought and thought what a wonderful idea for the Everest to do some yoga.
Sooooo. The $1000 question. How does it compare with original passive setup? How much better is it? In my experience going active is a big step forward.
http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/bi-ampling.html
Gizmo said everything there regarding bi amping.
Tri amp on the Everest took it to another level, and by a massive margin.
I tried a 250W bottom and 150W top bi amp.
Then switched to the 600W+300W bi amp. The extra power improved the bass control.
Then the revelation came with the 600W+600W+300W tri amp. Width, depth, bass control, detail, isolation and separation of instruments etc. I guess it is a bit like going from VHS (full range) to DVD (bi amp) and now to Blu Ray (tri amp).
In short, I stopped thinking about the audio and really enjoyed the music.
Try the Miles Davis Kind of Blue, first track, 8th minute, when the bass starts playing a little rhythm.
I could write a lot more, but it is really to be experienced.
If you own a pair, you must give tri amp more thought.
If you do not own a pair, you should consider getting them.
My ears are bleeding but I can hear everything.
I have made diy system with the 1200Fe and the 2435/H9800, and getting a strong enough amplifier on the woofer, really made a difference. So was going from passive to active setup.
We use the Crown Studio Ref 1 for woofer duty. Man, i have never heard such control and efortlesness.
Good to hear you like your system. Thats some serious $ in Brystons.
-Tim
Thanks for sharing. Let us know about the progress in time. Concerning the tri -amp, did you tried a "simple biamp" before starting this work ? I don't believe the tweet need it ...
Am I wrong ?
I think it should inspire others to re-create top of the line models we could not afford otherwise!
Thanks for sharing with us!
Regards, Ron
That back side looks like our PT250 project, except there's four wires going into the single port on the 250 cabinet: 600W-300W-300W-300W direct to the drivers.
Yeah, this system is just like your PT250 Project. ;)
If you decide to make this active three-way permanent, and it sounds like you will, Mr. Timbers designed the input panel on the Everests in such a way that it can be drilled out and an additional set of binding posts added to give it that finishing touch.
Widget
Must be that dang big inductor and electroletic capacitor on the helper woofer:D
I wasn't going to say a word :DQuote:
Yeah, this system is just like your PT250 Project. ;)
That's said (now), I imagine it is every bit as fun!
We had a fair amount of food and drink and company to "assist" us in this PT250 project, so I think we're doing okay. We haven't yet broached the topic of active bi-amping the K2 S9900s supplemented by the S2S subs, but hey, we'd have just as many drivers. 4313B already commented correctly that they're not the same caliber of drivers, but after we get going, nobody's opinion matters anyway.
:cheers:
Still this is a great project for the Everest II and it may yet inspire a daring adventure with the K2 S9900s. :D
the setting for the 2nd woofer is 6db at 133, 12db at 133, Q Mid.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6203/...b0fef446_b.jpg
I remember another Thread in this forum concerning Everest loudspeakers where it was stated that the midrange driver could take care of all the range up to the very high frequencies
At a show they put a blanket (?) on the tweeter and nobody seemed to miss it
May be expecially people above 50 :D
No seriously ... the Everest can really work as a two way speakers ???
Regards,
gino
So if I understand well the midrange driver actually can reach let's say 15-16kHz flat
but it become too directional at those frequencies ?
Sorry if I sound petulant
Thanks and regards,
gino
Those are the jumper positions.Quote:
Don't you mean 700Hz for the 12dB/oct ?
Series, isolated (buffered), independent 6dB filter sections.
(I do believe)
OK, I showed the settings for the 150Hz woofer earlier.
The 750Hz woofer settings are set to 18/24db slope
Pole1, 6db, 530Hz, Q is M.
Pole2, 12db, 480Hz, Q is M.
Pole3, 18db, 750Hz, Q is H.
Pole4, 24db, 750Hz, Q is H.
If you have a different setting, do share.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6157/...d2139a8d_b.jpg
The High Freq settings are on 6/12db slope.
Pole1, 6db, 750Hz, Q is H.
Pole2, 12db, 750Hz, Q is H.
Pole3, OUT.
Pole4, OUT.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6180/...cb48ed9b_b.jpg
Picked up the new Eastern Electric MiniMax DAC Plus.
Excellent DAC with a tube.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6081/...4a5683df_b.jpg
In the process of running in ...
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6154/...3d023011_b.jpg
http://eeaudio.com/eeaudio.htm
http://www.morningstaraudio.com/
for those who are curious.
Yes.
If I remember correctly Greg brought the 045 in around 20 kHz in the Everest II (paired with the 476Be) and around 15 kHz in the S9900 (paired with the 476Mg).
Thanks!I need to duplicate your settings in my DX-1's. A bit more work to be sure.
Yes please for all 3 settings !
Mr. Timbers suggested the roll off on the 2nd woofer is not that important.
Would you jiggle anything?
I tried each section separately and the impression was most of the sound was coming from the 750Hz woofer. But of course, you do not want your flour and eggs separately, you want the cake.
I'm still stuck in passive mode and the dual woofers are too much in my smaller, more cube shaped room compared with Greg's larger, more rectangular room. Going active will allow me to cut the power down going to the second woofer and/or change the crossover frequency, in my case probably down a bit. My two DX-1's are sitting on the bench with their tops open like virtually everything else I have to do. There's just no time these days. (I inherited Paul Bente's DX-1's, I believe both he and Greg went with the Pass Labs networks like you have).
Getting them up off the floor like you did really helps to marginalize the floor boundary. Four fifteens on the floor can be torrid. I ran into similar issues with 4355's and 4435's.
One thing is for sure, these fifteens have the most beautiful resolution I've yet experienced. Their entire bandwidth is stunningly good (and I'm using "grungy" old Citation 22's for power). Jerry did a killer job on their design.
I'd say JBL nailed the fifteen-inch two-way design once and for all.
4313B, I'd love to read (and see) more about your current design!
One thing that's not mentioned in the XVR-1 manual is the ability to make each filter high pass, low pass, or band pass. The manual only mentions high/low pass and daisy chaining the units. You can run them parallel and use each unit to bandpass a driver, or bandpass one driver with one unit and split the other two drivers with the other unit, eg: run a woofer and a tweeter off one unit and bandpass the mid off the other unit.
Just some trivia, I don't expect anyone is too enthusiastic over these crossovers.
Actually that point isn't trivial... I helped a friend set up a pair of multi-amped speakers using the XVR-1s (initially quad amped and later tri-amped). Using the "secret" band pass jumper setting sounded significantly better than using them in the cascaded fashion.
Widget
You might want to pass that on to Greg too. I think he was doing the daisy chain thing.
If I just split the source output into two, go direct into each crossover, hope the impedence does not change to affect the sound. Because the way this is set up is with an overlapping woofer freq., each box is doing its independent thing.
like this ... I had to match the voltage again. Not that big a change. On a blind test I probably cannot tell the difference.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6185/...d001d6e6_b.jpg
Yeah, you could buy 10 Behringer DCX 2496s for what just a 2 way XVR-1 will set you back (and his is 3 way). I was able to save a bit by not needing a second power supply module, there is the same power connector (looks like the old parallel printer cable in the pics) on the back of my preamp. So 2 control units off one power supply module and one control unit off the preamp.
Regarding the selection of electronic crossovers, I can only describe my journey on the Everests. I had cards made for the Marchand tube & ss, tried the Bryston, did not try my older JBL and DBX units.
The sound from the Marchand was slightly warmer on the tubes but it was a trade off against the bass detail. I do go back to it depending on my mood, and the type of music. The freq on the Brystons did not match well.
In the end, I wanted to walk the path Mr. Timbers. His crossover for the 2nd woofer is from a circuit he built, but he already had the 3 settings for the Pass Labs. I thought about my DIY skills, and decided to go with full Pass Labs. If anyone out there has a photo of his circuit, it would be very interesting to see.
Other Everest crossover stories are welcomed, I am always curious.
Epic thread. No more to say because it would involve heavy drooling.
are those RPG diffractals (QRDs) on the front wall? i'd love to see the rear wall :)
Very nice setup. I've been noodling a similar approach for my TADs. Any particular reason you are not running balanced? I may be wrong, but you may find a further increase in performance.
In the process of negotiation on a Pass pre. If that fails maybe a bryston, then go full balance. Any other pre amp suggestions?
The rear wall is 40 ft away, under damped currently.
Show us your kit on the TAD.
Having spent a few hours with Viva today I can honestly say ,besides being a perfect gent and scholar ,he is indeed bitten by the bug and a full card carrying member of this wonderful JBL obsession we all share .
Rich
Since you asked, my TADs are detailed elsewhere on this forum, but here's a summary: TD-4003, TH-4003 resin clones, TD-1601c and (currently) JBL 2235. The TADs are connected to a TN-4 800Hz crossover and powered by an Air Tight ATM-2. The JBL is powered active below 100Hz by a Krell KSA 300s. Driving it all is a Pass Labs XP-20 preamp.
Jerry
Spent a great morning with Rich.
I thought I liked to tinkle, and he showed me how he made his own horns !
He can certainly describe his configuration better than I, so I will leave it to him with space below.
The sound was stunning, the warmest I have heard from an SS amp.
I hope my L300 here took you back in time to when you first heard them at 18 !
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6176/...5b754739_b.jpg
The mold.
He said he can make the horns for others, I am tempted.
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6166/...6fd56a77_b.jpg
How far off topic are going to go here? :blink:
Widget
[QUOTE=vivaregina;320627]. Any other pre amp suggestions?
/QUOTE]
Mark Levinson No. 326S. And if you can swing it, an ML 331 or 334 for the high pass power amp. Brystons are great, I use them for sub duty and band pass, but an older ML for the highs is sublime when combined with the 326S.
RMAF 2011
Like those shoes.
Attachment 53292
Went to a demo session with Jerry Rig to visit some field coils. Jerry knows his stuff. Great guy. After talking with him, I might get around to plugging some more tubes into my line up and see what happens.
From Nelson Pass ...
Later versions of the XVR1 have an added internal switch which places the high-pass filter after the low-pass filter. The low-pass output on the rear panel is untouched, but the high-pass output reflects both the low-pass and-high pass filters. This is simply a convenience feature – you can get the same performance with the original circuit - in both cases it requires 2 XVR1’s to make a 3 way crossover.
Sorry I missed your call .
How is the Pre-amp experiment going ?
Rich
Right, thats the BP jumper we mentioned. Aside from convenience, it allows one complete filter to be made from a single box as opposed to having the filter spit between two different boxes with the additional wiring involved.
You said you didn't notice any difference between the 2 different methods, and others have commented that they prefer the BP configuration as opposed to the daisy chain configuration. So it's just a personal decision. I didn't know of it until I called and spoke at some length with Kent at Pass, he said that the XVR1 was one of the lowest noise devices they made and daisy chaining the units as in the manual shouldn't be an issue...but then they still added the BP jumper, which meant a change to the circuit boards. There must have been some perceived benefit, other than convenience, to go through all that.
Pre amps ...
Attachment 53947
Strangely, they all have their strengths. Each time I switched over, I noticed and preferred the switch. In a strange way, I hear what was slightly lacking previously. BP26 has better bass resolution, 7 has better highs, JP80MC has better tone and sound stage. If I were forced to live with only one, I might choose the latter, the most musical. But in the end, the answer is enjoyment found in all of them.
The Marantz was actually switched on., but I made the photo too small so you had to squint.
Ah, I also tried the least dynamic ... it was a passive 50K volume pot.
One more pre amp coming ... I hope this week.... a 3 piece.
Running full balanced and slave output to lower freq XO.
Result is excellent.
Attachment 54551
You should crop your pic just a little more, we can still make out what it is.
Hey Charlie, balanced is the way to go. Enjoy!
Jerry
Hi Jerry
Top 2 of the 3 piece
Attachment 54581
Looks like the Pass Labs XP-30. :applaud: Makes my XP-20 look puny!
I thought I read something about my Plimsoll Line ...
anyway, my motto
"If you wanna play, you gotta pay."
Attachment 54605
That usually is the case... though simply paying and paying isn't always the best way to play. ;)
I'd suggest while your level of expenditure is orders of magnitude greater than the average forum member's, from what I can see you've made rational choices.
For those of us who appreciate this stuff vicariously, would you mind describing your current signal chain in some detail?
Widget
You are right Widget !
Including your home address, the code to your burglar alarm system, and your home's floor plan? I like to appreciate stuff vicariously in person... if you know what I mean.
-------------------------
Note to cops, TSA, Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, sheriff's departments, private security, alarm companies, Google data aggregators/tattletales, and other Herberts: it's a friggin' joke. Get it?
Note to cops, TSA, Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, sheriff's departments, private security, alarm companies, Google data aggregators/tattletales, and other Herberts: it's a friggin' joke. Get it?
Priceless!
Is it in response two the reaction towards the two swedes who made joke on Twitter?
And btw, you forgot NSA.
New 2nd Project, changes to crossover
Attachment 54730
The mid horn crossover
Attachment 54731
Take out the wires to the lower crossovers, meaning take out the front binding posts, but keeping the 9V batteries
Attachment 54733
Change value of R8 reisitor from 3 Ohm to 2.7 Ohm to lower the brightness.
As recommended by Mr. G.T.
Attachment 54734
Kiwame Carbon Film resistor.
The sound is smoother, less nervous around the 2k Hz region.
Previously it was a little more metallic, more glare.
I was skeptical before the change, but I heard it on the 2nd pair, and went for it.
I would say the change improved the character of the speakers.
Attachment 54765
an acoustic engineer said I should read more
Attachment 55544
The crossover set up is back to the original GT concept of 750Hz fed into the 150Hz cut, so I am running bass output of XVR1 back into input of second XVR1, instead of slave direct from pre amp.
The frequencies for voltage match is 1k Hz and 50 Hz. Make sure you adjust the main woofer first, as that will affect the 2nd woofer if it is hooked up as above.
For those who are following the internal changes very closely, for the HF schematic, the Red wire is connected to the WHITE position on internal circuit, so you bypass C1 and C2 both 47uF capacitors.
I have to ask, are these the actual crossovers from the 66000?
Yep.
You know you can put some low value resistors in series with one leg of some L-Pads on all those notches and dial them in on the fly. Once you get them dialed in for your room just substitute in the actual resistor values.
So, here is the Question …
What do you do after climbing the Everest ?
Well, I decided to go deep, deep Ocean, … Ocean Way.
http://oceanwayaudio.com/
I had expected the bass performance of the Everest to be out gunned by these big boys. 50% taller and deeper. I was so surprised the Everest matched its deep, clear, loud, distortion free bass. I think it was because of the independent one 600W mono amp per 15 inch driver.
The current set up of the Everest with the 300W stereo for the top, could be the weak link, vs the great Viola Audio Labs amps used to drive Ocean Way HR2 monitor system. Absolute respect for Tom Colangelo, even from the days of the ML2. His legacy lives on in these great amps.
http://www.violalabs.com/
http://oceanwayaudio.com/oceanway-monitors/hr2-monitor-system/
I know what I am going to be lifting this summer.
Viola Cadenza and Legacy amps, Nagra PLP, and an absolutely delicious CH Precision CD player http://ch-precision.com/site/
met a wonderful chap, Murray, with another pair of everests, hope he will post something here about his set up.