upgrade drivers in HT

Hi all, new member from Sweden but i have been lurking the forum on & of since the beginning.
I am also familiar with most of the Swedes in here.
I think i have an old profil that i have forgott about...

Any way,
My current HT that i also use for 2ch is mounted in a baffle wall and in a room that is acoustically treated (RT60 @ 0,22sec)
2 x 4645C
3 x 2226 in sealed boxes (140L)
3 x B&C 750 DE
3 x Copys of Emilar 820
(+ atmos and surround)
Dirac live, active filters and alots of amps.


So to my questions, is it possible to swap 2242 to 2269 in the 4645C cabs or is it best to build new cabs?
2226, if i where to change them what should i choose?
The horn drivers will also be changed, but not to JBL.

https://i.imgur.com/DrsfdoQ.jpg

I believe the 2242 and 2269 require about the same size box, but the 4645c may be tuned higher than you'd want for the 2269. You could modify the ports, but might be better off selling the 4645c's intact and building the correct sized/tuned enclosures for the 2269's. Also not sure if the woofer cut out and bolt spacing will match.

Why sealed for the 2226's? The consensus I've found is that vented is the way to go, even with subs. Why are you thinking of replacing them?

What HF drivers are you thinking of moving to, and why not JBL?

I could see an improvement by going vented on the 2226's, JBL 2384 or STX/VTX waveguides along with 2447/51/53 SL drivers...but, I'm biased, as this is what I'm using currently. Dual, vented 2226 per side, 2384, 2447 w/51SL diaphragms, active using a TesiraServer for processing and Crown power amps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emilime75

I believe the 2242 and 2269 require about the same size box, but the 4645c may be tuned higher than you'd want for the 2269. You could modify the ports, but might be better off selling the 4645c's intact and building the correct sized/tuned enclosures for the 2269's. Also not sure if the woofer cut out and bolt spacing will match.

Why sealed for the 2226's? The consensus I've found is that vented is the way to go, even with subs. Why are you thinking of replacing them?

What HF drivers are you thinking of moving to, and why not JBL?

I could see an improvement by going vented on the 2226's, JBL 2384 or STX/VTX waveguides along with 2447/51/53 SL drivers...but, I'm biased, as this is what I'm using currently. Dual, vented 2226 per side, 2384, 2447 w/51SL diaphragms, active using a TesiraServer for processing and Crown power amps.

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Thanks for the answer!
I never thought of the cut out and bolt spacing, new cabs it will be.
I am very happy with them, in a baffle wall they perform way better then just pressed up to a wall or a corner.
But after reading about 2269 there is no going back....

Years back i saw a member on a Swedish hifi forum (he´s also a member here) with 2226 in sealed 140L boxes.
They have a nice range down to 30hz and with the xo @ 80hz there is no need to go vented.
The last 10 years JBL have done some really nice 15" drivers and after i have been listening to M2, 4365, 4367 the 2226 feels old in sense.

I like to keep things simple hence a 2 way system, the Emilar horns are 2" 800hz horns and to find a driver that can handle the range ~800 - 20Khz aint that easy.
So i have an Eye on BMS 4592ND or some newer versions of the driver i have today.

The olders JBL drivers does not do it for me but there is a bunch of new ones i dont know so much about.
I am gonna take a look at 2384 but i think my room is to small for them, 90x40 thats the coverage i have today.

JBL 2384 paired with JBL 2435 ?
Or that combo would need a UHF driver?

*edit*
I cant fit 2384, i remembered that now :(

JBL M2. Sen är du hemma;)

But as Emelie75 said I think JBL 2384 or STX/VTX waveguides along with 2447/50/51/53 SL (aquaplas) drivers is most bang for the buck. Some say top notch. I doubt the BMS coax will do it better.

Subwoofer: BMSn862 is half price in Europe compared to 2269. http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_18n862 and https://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=51

//Kalle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalle

DIY M2. Sen är du hemma;)

But as Emelie75 said I think JBL 2384 or STX/VTX waveguides along with 2447/50/51/53 SL (aquaplas) drivers is most bang for the buck. Some say top notch. I doubt the BMS coax will do it better.

Subwoofer: BMSn862 is half price in Europe compared to 2269. http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_18n862 and https://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=51

//Kalle

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Yeah Kalle, Long time no see!
Do you still have the M2 clones, as i understand it is impossible to find all the parts today?
And do you have fixed the acoustic yet ;)

Well the 2384 is a No Go due to the size and i do kind of like the coverage i have today.
My sealing is pretty low and a part of the acoustic so i cant really do anything to it, i am affraid that with higher vertical coverage i screw things up :(
Money is off course a concern but i am prepared to spend some $

*edit*
The measurement on BMSn862 compared to 4645C is really good.
And in a pretty small box to, four of them in wall should do it!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emilime75

I believe the 2242 and 2269 require about the same size box, but the 4645c may be tuned higher than you'd want for the 2269. You could modify the ports, but might be better off selling the 4645c's intact and building the correct sized/tuned enclosures for the 2269's. Also not sure if the woofer cut out and bolt spacing will match.

Why sealed for the 2226's? The consensus I've found is that vented is the way to go, even with subs. Why are you thinking of replacing them?

What HF drivers are you thinking of moving to, and why not JBL?

I could see an improvement by going vented on the 2226's, JBL 2384 or STX/VTX waveguides along with 2447/51/53 SL drivers...but, I'm biased, as this is what I'm using currently. Dual, vented 2226 per side, 2384, 2447 w/51SL diaphragms, active using a TesiraServer for processing and Crown power amps.

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I was looking on your tip with STX combined with 2453 SL, dont i need an adapter between the driver and horn?

Can check fit tomorrow.

Trevlig kväll

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sebackman

Can check fit tomorrow.

Trevlig kväll

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Dito :)

Here are some pictures. 2453 is a straight fit on the VTX F12 waveguide.

Any other JBL driver can be mounted with an adapter. I have posted about this in an earlier thread, including a drawing.

Kind regards
//RoB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sebackman

Here are some pictures. 2453 is a straight fit on the VTX F12 waveguide.

Any other JBL driver can be mounted with an adapter. I have posted about this in an earlier thread, including a drawing.

Kind regards
//RoB

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Yeah, Perfect!

Thanks!

So what is the desire to move away from the 2242 to the 2269? The 2242 in the 4645C cabinet is pretty awesome, in its own right. It is true that both drivers CAN use the same enclosure (JBL has sure done it on production units like the 4642A versus the 5628). It doesn't mean that it is optimized for the 2269. A better box for the 2269 is the one they used on the SUB18. The T-S parameters are not identical at all. In fact, the 2269 can function in a sealed box whereas the 2242 is really just a vented box driver.

But, in your application, home-cinema subwoofer, there is nothing wrong with the 2242/4645C system. Note, the 2269 is notably less efficient so you'll need more power for it.

Now for the hypocrite part...for my home theatre, we cloned the SUB18 specifically to use the 2269. I did it because of my fascination with the 2269 and the desire to see what it could do. I've used the 2242 commercially, in cinemas for decades (starting with the 4645B) and it has remained one of my most favorite drivers. The only thing that kills it are objects through the cone and Ashely FET amplifiers when they go DC.

That said, I'm fully aware that I'll never fully realize the bottom end of the 2269 in my basement (Home Theatre) due to size of the wavelength down at 18Hz. I only have about 16-feet (4.9m) to my home theatre, not 62.8 (19.1m). So there is that. How big is your room to justify the change? While testing mine, I did go outside to get the full effect. I also wanted to see how well my walls/sound isolation worked at knocking down the audio escaping the theatre space.

I also like the 2226 a lot. It has been a very reliable and good performer for me. I've never once wanted to replace it with something else. Then again, it has normally been in the 4508 or 4507 cabinets (4648, 4647 systems).

If you are just looking to switch things up...come and join the M2 club. It is my most favorite speaker, at the moment. I wouldn't have even really known about it if it weren't for a friend insisting I give it a shot. We built a prototype M2 to to listen to it. Note, you need the DSP to make it perform. If you want to try something radically different, there is also the Altec side...listen to some 604s. Great Plains Audio makes it and now on the version 3. I almost used them before hearing the M2.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sguttag

So what is the desire to move away from the 2242 to the 2269? The 2242 in the 4645C cabinet is pretty awesome, in its own right. It is true that both drivers CAN use the same enclosure (JBL has sure done it on production units like the 4642A versus the 5628). It doesn't mean that it is optimized for the 2269. A better box for the 2269 is the one they used on the SUB18. The T-S parameters are not identical at all. In fact, the 2269 can function in a sealed box whereas the 2242 is really just a vented box driver.

But, in your application, home-cinema subwoofer, there is nothing wrong with the 2242/4645C system. Note, the 2269 is notably less efficient so you'll need more power for it.

Now for the hypocrite part...for my home theatre, we cloned the SUB18 specifically to use the 2269. I did it because of my fascination with the 2269 and the desire to see what it could do. I've used the 2242 commercially, in cinemas for decades (starting with the 4645B) and it has remained one of my most favorite drivers. The only thing that kills it are objects through the cone and Ashely FET amplifiers when they go DC.

That said, I'm fully aware that I'll never fully realize the bottom end of the 2269 in my basement (Home Theatre) due to size of the wavelength down at 18Hz. I only have about 16-feet (4.9m) to my home theatre, not 62.8 (19.1m). So there is that. How big is your room to justify the change? While testing mine, I did go outside to get the full effect. I also wanted to see how well my walls/sound isolation worked at knocking down the audio escaping the theatre space.

I also like the 2226 a lot. It has been a very reliable and good performer for me. I've never once wanted to replace it with something else. Then again, it has normally been in the 4508 or 4507 cabinets (4648, 4647 systems).

If you are just looking to switch things up...come and join the M2 club. It is my most favorite speaker, at the moment. I wouldn't have even really known about it if it weren't for a friend insisting I give it a shot. We built a prototype M2 to to listen to it. Note, you need the DSP to make it perform. If you want to try something radically different, there is also the Altec side...listen to some 604s. Great Plains Audio makes it and now on the version 3. I almost used them before hearing the M2.

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As you say, 4545C is just a awsome sub as long as you dont want infra, 20 - 25Hz thats good enough for me.
The reason i have is pretty much the same as you mention, newer driver, newer design and i want to know what JBL:s top woofer can do but it does not come cheap!

My room aint big, 25kvm/270sqf and i have a different approach to the acoustic then most.
Normaly you would like to have a sealed room for good low freq, but it also creates more prounonced room modes.

So my take on that problem is to have room that "leaks" and use Brute force (4645C) to be able reach 20hz, but i dont use any B6 correction.
With a sligthly modded Harman Synthesis Target curve i can go flat out to 20hz.
This is the intro on Edge of tomorrow with the famous sinus tones, from 10hz and up and i nearly killed the woofers :crying:
https://i.imgur.com/3nNPwtK.jpg

That 2269 is less efficient is a good reason not to change, imho.


2226 with B&C 750De in the right horn means a xo at 850hz, my Emilar copys is good for 800hz.
At one Point i was Close to buy 3 2227 to be able to have a higher xo without beaming.
Today i have a slight tendency for it but i can live with it, Dirac helps alot.

So the reason to change to 2265 would be the as for 2269, newer driver etc etc but would Really like to test 2216Nd!
I also like the grunt 15" have and have being Close to add more 2226 so i could have Three MTM :)
Anyway, it feels like 2265 is out!

M2, Oh man....
I just love them and i would sell my kids for them ;)
I wonder if Active crossover with Dirac would work instead of a BSS.

Trackday season have started so i am a bit late with this, Sorry!

A small update and a Big shoutout to all the good ideas!
I settled for 3 x 2216Nd, 3 x 2354H-SL and 3 x STX horns.
The idea was to use my current 140L sealed boxes and also to mount the HF drivers in them.
It could mean that the tuning would be out of the window but there where more room for filling so fingers crossed.


Without Dirac and with the speakers in a proper baffle wall i got -3dB @ 25hz (!?)
According to my measurement it where phase issues around that region so it could get better with Dirac.
So after Dirac calibration i went straight to music and i thought i left my subs on, but no...
I know that the new transducers are good but this good?!
So i went in to Party mode and what ever i played, at what ever volume the speakers never gave up.
Full blast at 20hz, No issues what so ever, no hard mids or knife like upper regions.
And at normal music lvl and with "critical ears", i have Nothing to complain about.....

The measurement below is with (red) and with out (black) sub and 1/24 smoothing, mind the scale and there is a 10dB bump in the bass.
I settled for 7dB bump in the end for Music, also the cross over between 2216 and 2354 are at 850hz here, today i have it at 950hz
https://i.imgur.com/6gVJ1Wh.png

So thanks again to everybody who helped out! :)

And a bad pic on how it looks.
The old horn and driver will go out someday....
https://i.imgur.com/5cpiYgH.png

You've made some great choices there, Johan.

Are you keeping the 2242s?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emilime75

You've made some great choices there, Johan.

Are you keeping the 2242s?

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Well without you guys anything could have happend ;)
Yep, i decided to keep them and i only use them for Movies.