ElectroVoice T35 - anyone familiar with them?

Went to a turning shop yesterday, to get some screwed up windings in 2307 horns renewed. The owner recognized the horns, he did the boring/tapping himself, and we had a nice little smalltalk about loudspeakers in the meantime. While I paid a little fee, he pulled 2 pairs of very dusty speakers somewhere out of the bottom drawer in a corner, admitting he used to build speakers himself, decades ago. These were from an unfinished project, I got them as a gift – "better than throwing away, have fun with them.."

So, anyone familiar with EV, and these tweeters? :blink: I'm not. 8 ohms, they looked a bit like Klipschhorn tweeters (K-77 ??) to me, but those are usually black, not chrome.. OK, EV is wellknown, they build highend speakers too. Seems these could be used as replacement tweeters for Klipschhorns? Are they usable for anything else, and of any mentionable worth? Could do with a bit enlightening.. thanks.

Yes, the EV T35 series is used by Klipsch as the K77 series. They would go in your Klipschorns if the impedance is correct. Diaphragms are readily available. Yours are the earlier Alnico version.

As I recall, the T-35 and K-77 are the same tweeter and were used in the Klipsch Heritage line as well as in early EV's. The T-35 was the EV model number and K-77 were designated for Klipsch. I think those are Alnico's and they later went to a square ceramic magnet. If the diaphragms are good, you could probably get a decent price for them on ebay.

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Originally Posted by Fangio

So, anyone familiar with EV, and these tweeters? :blink: I'm not. 8 ohms, they looked a bit like Klipschhorn tweeters (K-77 ??) to me, but those are usually black, not chrome..

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EV offered them as OEM versions in all black with a stamped horn I believe, the horn was certainly thinner walled and they had a brass colored magnet cover. This version was available through some speaker vendors and was the version that Klipsch used. EV also offered them as component speakers with nice cast horns that were chrome with matte black interiors like the ones you are showing. They were later updated as the T-35A... I don't know the difference, but they looked identical to the T-35 you are showing. Later they were offered with a rectangular ferrite magnet but still called the T-35A. All of these were available either as the satin black painted OEM version or the more deluxe component version in chrome.


Widget

The T35 is not a very good tweeter. Most start taking a dive at about 10K Klipsch would select those that would make it to 15K and send the rest back. I have a pair tested in a anechoic chamber just makes it to 10k I replaced the diaphrams & now get 14k. Diaphrams are inconsistent due to phenolic weight and thickness. The newer T35/ k77 today will get 15k to 17k. This tweeter should have been retired along time ago.

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Originally Posted by Maron Horonzakz

The T35 is not a very good tweeter. Most start taking a dive at about 10K ... This tweeter should have been retired along time ago.

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OK, thanks gentlemen for the hints. Thought it might be worth to keep them, could be usable for a yet unborn custom project in future.. So Maron, you suggest I throw them away now? ;)

Checked ebay, not one pair looked the same like the others, seems there are quite a lot versions. One seller in HongKong offered them for 350$. That seemed a bit too optimistic.

Phenolic diaphragms? Couldn't resist to have a look inside.

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Originally Posted by Fangio

Checked ebay, not one pair looked the same like the others, seems there are quite a lot versions. One seller in HongKong offered them for 350$. That seemed a bit too optimistic..

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The more common T-35s I've seen are much narrower than yours. The one you showed which clearly states T-35 looks like the T-35As... As far as I know there are only four versions. The Narrow T-35, the later T-35 that you have, the T-35A which looks identical, and then the ferrite T-35A. These in turn are all available in the OEM and component versions.

There is another model called the T-350... it is vastly superior. It looks similar and uses the same diaphragm, but has a much larger magnet and larger horn.

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Originally Posted by Fangio

Phenolic diaphragms? Couldn't resist to have a look inside.

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Did you break the voice coil leads? It doesn't appear that your opened tweeter will work now.


Widget

Very impressing, Mr. Widget. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. :)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

Did you break the voice coil leads? It doesn't appear that your opened tweeter will work now.

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There came no cheep at all out of them, when connected to an amp. Also I couldn't measure any DCR before I opened one. There were no leads to break, looked like been opened before.

There are for sure EV fans who have better use for spares of these. Seems the best I put them on the bay, and declare them as not functionally.

Theres a guy on the Klipsch forum Bob Crites who is very good at restoring them & can make them functional again.

Edgewounds very illuminating 'Electro-Voice History link' inspired me to treat these with more respect. Had that well done here too, and could watch the repair - quite professional, it's a tricky procedure to open/close them. We tried them out, pretty clear and musically - I'd say alnico sound ;) and fortunately no obvious 'dive' audible.

But still no use for them, as I got 2405s recently. :) Back on the bay.

I have always liked the sound of the T-35 it is very different than the sound of a JBL tweeter. In the wrong situation though the T-35 can become a little annoying. I do find it less tiring on the ears than a lot of other tweets. the T-350 is in my opinion the best "horn" tweeter on the planet. Thats just my opinion. Now if I could only afford a pair lol

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Originally Posted by pelly3s

... the T-350 is in my opinion the best "horn" tweeter on the planet. Thats just my opinion. Now if I could only afford a pair lol

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I like them too, but I can think of an even better one.... but they cost even more.:(


Widget

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Originally Posted by pelly3s

I have always liked the sound of the T-35 it is very different than the sound of a JBL tweeter. In the wrong situation though the T-35 can become a little annoying. I do find it less tiring on the ears than a lot of other tweets. the T-350 is in my opinion the best "horn" tweeter on the planet. Thats just my opinion. Now if I could only afford a pair lol

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I do have a pair of TW35's, they are like smaller versions of the same thing? This pair makes it to about 17.5K after replacing the phenolic with aluminum domes from some (unknown) Pioneer speakers. The domes came from a parts kit that included the domes and coils for 15" speakers. Unfortunately, the cones were what the woofs needed, and I still have no idea what the tweets looked like, but the voice coils on the domes were a perfect fit in the little EV's...

Someone asked me: .. very nice, but do they play identic loud???? :blink:

Serious (and also funny ;)) answer suggestions are welcome. Since these can stand only 5 watt or so, I don't like the idea of A/B'ing them here at home with my amp, w/o the protection of a xover which we had at the shop..

Couldn't one assume already from the DCR, that they are close together? :hmm:

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Originally Posted by Fangio

Couldn't one assume already from the DCR, that they are close together? :hmm:

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No. Their response and sensitivity will be affected by the condition of the VC, diaphragm, and motor and also the how well centered the diaphragms are...


Widget

The EV tweeters I've heard have sounded much like other phenolic+linen diaphragm tweeters, which is to say very good indeed. The University horn tweeter and the Jensen RP-302 have similar diaphragms. As a class these tend to sound better to me than metal diaphragm tweeters- very accurate, clean and pure sounding, without metallic colorations. I think it is the self damping nature of the diaphragm material that is responsible for this. These tweeters are becoming more sought after and pricey all the time, especially the Jensens.

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Originally Posted by Steve Schell

These tweeters are becoming more sought after and pricey all the time, especially the Jensens.

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I think that is the influence of collectors and not people seeking sonic excellence. I agree that these phenolic tweeters are not harsh and biting... well they can be, but typically aren't... but they don't have the detail, air, and extension that many of the finest contemporary tweeters have.

Physically the 045Be and T35A are similar looking... the new Beryllium JBL is significantly better in my opinion.


Widget

All good points Mr. Widget, except that collectors rarely go after speakers with poor sound. Part of the popularity of the RP-302 is no doubt because it was used in the G-610 Triaxial.

My hearing only extends to about 14kHz. these days, so a device that makes it that high without breaking up sounds very good to me. It is the tizzy-sounding breakups of many metal diaphragms that sound disagreeable to me. Take titanium- please!

Beryllium is surely a fine choice for a tweeter diaphragm. On our last Lansing Heritage tour, Doug Button showed us an FEA animation of a large format beryllium driver diaphragm. It was still showing clean pistonic motion at 14kHz.

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Originally Posted by Steve Schell

All good points Mr. Widget, except that collectors rarely go after speakers with poor sound.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Of course what sounds good to one person and not to another is purely subjective, but I can think of countless examples of cool looking and valuable older speakers that most of us realize sound like the antique squawkers they are.:)


Widget

My collection is comprised in large part of perfectly dreadful-sounding JBL vintage gear.

[Perhaps I'm just incompetent....:p ]

I tend to agree with Steve but The Widget raises an interesting point.

In comparisons the damped titanium is much preferred. Unfortunately pistonic behaviour from a rigid material and good self damping do not necessarily go hand in hand.

The fabric/resin impregnated diaphragms have no doubt good self damping qualities..but not the rigidity of the metal counterparts. This however may be less important are mid frequencies than very high frequencies.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. Of course what sounds good to one person and not to another is purely subjective, but I can think of countless examples of cool looking and valuable older speakers that most of us realize sound like the antique squawkers they are.:)

I think that is the influence of collectors and not people seeking sonic excellence. I agree that these phenolic tweeters are not harsh and biting... well they can be, but typically aren't... but they don't have the detail, air, and extension that many of the finest contemporary tweeters have.


Widget

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Perhaps this should become known as The Wigdety Theory!:bouncy:

Hmm.. soo many experts spending time on them..

For sure they make nice showcase pieces too. ;)

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Originally Posted by Fangio

For sure they make nice showcase pieces too. ;)

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Yes... the chrome versions are very pretty... I still have a pair myself.


Widget

I had the black/white and green ones(Heathkit).

Only pair left are just for the cool look factor in a inexpensive speaker system.

I did compare them to my 2402 bullets and while the bullet only goes a little bit higher in response, it had much more going for it than a higher output than the T35's.

Nice vintage with history though just like the 075's, they are more collectors items than desirable for audio!

Ron

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Originally Posted by pelly3s

I have always liked the sound of the T-35 it is very different than the sound of a JBL tweeter. In the wrong situation though the T-35 can become a little annoying. I do find it less tiring on the ears than a lot of other tweets. the T-350 is in my opinion the best "horn" tweeter on the planet. Thats just my opinion. Now if I could only afford a pair lol

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I have owned a pair of T 35s for 25 years and wonder how much they might be worth today. They are in excellent condition. Any estimate for the pair? I'd appreciate your help, since I want to sell them.

Interesting that Klipsch uses them "landscape" while EV states they operate on the diffraction principle, and are therefore to be used "portrait".

I have read several comments over the years about Klipsch's incorrect orientation of the tweeter.

THe diffraction is 120 degrees in verticle position on the T35.....But if I take my Smith horn and rotate 90 degrees I get the same thing...But look at the new JBL Array the large section of the horn is also in the verticle position but the tiny tweeter on the upper lip is rotated to horizontal position.....Go figure.:D

I could be wrong, but when I saw the Dead at Kezar in about '73 thew had a second set of speakers about the 50 yard line that appeared to have more T35's than I had ever seen in my life up to that point. I was selling T35's and T350's at the time so I should have been able to tell them apart, however I couldn't get real close and there were other circumstances that could have altered my perception. Anyway the T35 is probably better than anything anywhere near it's price unless you are one of the people that it just annoys the hell out of.

Thom I hate to disagree with you, But the T35 is a flawed tweeter....Many years ago at the central instatute of tha deaf....In the anechoic chamber we ran a frequency plot on a few EV T35 tweeters ...They took a nose dive at 10K....Last year John Warren wrote a article on the T35 useing those very same plots....Various Klipsch K77/T35 have been made that are even worse....They do make excellent paper weights though.;)

I'm sure not going to fight over it. It sure wouldn't be the first time I was wrong. If that is all the higher it goes how do some people find it to have such an edge while others listening to the same one don't? I always figured it was because it did something nasty where not all of us hear. It certainly has it's detractors there's no doubt about that. I used to have one portable so you could hook it into systems as a selling tool. You could hear the difference on top of an 001 system. I'm not saying that everybody liked the difference but it brought out sparkle that the 175 didn't show. It sure wasn't an 075 but it was much cheaper. We didn't do much with the 350 as we mostly used EV when people just couldn't stretch to JBL. This was at least a million years ago and even then many people didn't much care for it. I just hadn't heard it wouldn't go over 10k. Don't recall reading that it could just surprises me.
If I already owned them, unless I had no place for them, Id listen to them and then if I felt they were junk OK. That's a lot different than going out and buying them.

Those are the facts,like it or not. The EV T35 was a dog...Poor quality control..Im really surprised a aluminum diaphram wasnt made for it. The mass of the phenaulic diaphram varied.

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Originally Posted by Maron Horonzakz

The T35 is not a very good tweeter. Most start taking a dive at about 10K Klipsch would select those that would make it to 15K and send the rest back. I have a pair tested in a anechoic chamber just makes it to 10k I replaced the diaphrams & now get 14k. Diaphrams are inconsistent due to phenolic weight and thickness. The newer T35/ k77 today will get 15k to 17k. This tweeter should have been retired along time ago.

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Originally Posted by Zilch

Nobody's been able to replicate EV's curves for T35 thus far, +/- 1.5 dB from 3.5 - 15+ kHz. Maybe if it were mounted on the requisite baffle:

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Zilch's image posted below... this post taken from Storm's Altec +EV thread.

Below that I have posted a plot of three T-35s. The blue and green T-35s were taken from my Klipsch Belle clones and have been babied their whole lives so I'd suggest their response is likely as new... the red plot is from a K-horn... I have no idea how hard it may have been driven.

I'd say that for a bunch of vintage drivers these are following their original specified curve better than most that we see here and for the record, I'd say these are not the terrible tweeters that Maron and Zilch seem to think they are. I guarantee they produce higher frequencies than many here can actually hear. :p


Widget

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

I'd say that for a bunch of vintage drivers these are following their original specified curve better than most that we see here...

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What I'm amazed by is the fact that those old published curves are nearly identical to those produced by the latest state of the art measuring equipment!

John

What are the measurement conditions, Widget? Do you have them on a baffle, or just freestanding on a pedestal?

I'm just setting up to remeasure the pair I have here (courtesy Jackgiff) for another project, actually.

If I still get the same result as originally, I propose we swap T-35s and each measure the other's samples.... :D

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Originally Posted by Zilch

What are the measurement conditions...

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One meter on axis freestanding on a pedestal. Didn't your post say that you measured T35Bs? As I recall the T35B had a much smaller magnet and therefore will have a lower mass break point and less extended HF.

Either that or you have a tired old driver... I agree with Maron that the phenolic diaphragms are likely more difficult to manufacture to the tolerances required for ideal unit to unit performance. I was quite pleased to see that the pair that I bought together in the late '70s were as closely matched as they were.

Widget

T35B, yup, and they measure same as last year.

It'd steal 10 dB to flatten them to 14 kHz.

This is the driver used in 12TRXB, for example, crossed at 3.5 kHz, and those curves also reflect the characteric response:

That tweeter never was considered truly "Hi-Fi"... they were the very inexpensive little brother to the T35 and were sold back in the day when JBL considered the 375 as all you needed up top.

Maybe you shouldn't so quick to damn the T35. They certainly aren't JBL 045Bes, TAD ET-703s, or even EV-T350s, but the T35/T35A is actually pretty respectable... I've been enjoying this pair in the K-horns all weekend. :p

...and while they certainly aren't as impressively engineered as the vintage JBL ring radiators, I'd say that they are every bit as good and that the sonic difference is basically a subjective one.


Widget

I will certainly temper my criticism of T35 based upon your measurements (I DO very much like chrome, ;)) but T35B, and others incorporating it, are still fair game.

Which type was used by Klipsch?

What do we know definitively about T35A?

http://archives.telex.com/archives/E...T35A%20EDS.pdf

Klipsch never used the "B" version... I know that all of the ferrite versions like the one pictured in your link were called T35A, but I am fairly certain that the T35A was introduced prior to the ferrite models. I have used both T35s and T35As (all several decades ago) and am not sure of the difference, if any. Maybe EV was trying to follow JBL's lead in screwy and confusing model numbers.:D


Widget

The little phase plug thingy was different between the two.... The Klipsch K77 is now made somewhere on the Pacific rim.

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Originally Posted by Maron Horonzakz

The little phase plug thingy was different between the two....

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I know that is true between the original T35 and the T35A, but it appears that EV changed the design before they changed the name.

My T35s look just like Fangio's and the T35As I have had also looked the same. Here is a pic of the original T35. It has a narrower horn and no phase plug.


Widget

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Originally Posted by pelly3s

I have always liked the sound of the T-35 it is very different than the sound of a JBL tweeter. In the wrong situation though the T-35 can become a little annoying. I do find it less tiring on the ears than a lot of other tweets. the T-350 is in my opinion the best "horn" tweeter on the planet. Thats just my opinion. Now if I could only afford a pair lol

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I can say that the EV T350s are the cat's meow. I own a pair of them.:) The T350 was standard equipment on the huge EV's top-of-the-line Patrician speakers with a 30" woofer.

To my ears, the T350 are superior to the JBL 075/2405 ring radiator, and good rival to the JBL 077/2402 slot radiator. To my ears, I perfer the T350 over the 077/2402 because the high end sounds a bit clearer to my ears. That was 25 years ago, I doubt that today I can hear the difference with my aging ears.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

Klipsch never used the "B" version... I know that all of the ferrite versions like the one pictured in your link were called T35A, but I am fairly certain that the T35A was introduced prior to the ferrite models. I have used both T35s and T35As (all several decades ago) and am not sure of the difference, if any. Maybe EV was trying to follow JBL's lead in screwy and confusing model numbers.:D

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http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...2003#post42003

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

The other day there was an article in AudioXpress describing what was entailed in replacing the T35A (K-77) that was standard in the Klipschorn and other Klipsch speakers for decades. Here is an anechoic plot of the T35A from EV that was featured in that article. I knew the little buggers were bad... but good grief this is terrible.

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http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/a...1&d=1107679048

What's your point Zilch?

Seems that AudioXpress' vetting process is suspect here. Based on my recent actual measurements of excellent condition T35s and your post of EV's original specification plot, the little T35 isn't nearly as bad as some thought. That published plot in AudioXpress is either of a T35B or a damaged or defective T35, T35A.

Seems to me this is another case of believe your ears and not your eyes when it comes to every graph you see. Don't put too much faith in those plots... even if they are published in a magazine.

As for my condemnation of the lowly T35, my post was made while I was listening to TAD's ET-703s. Unfortunately in that comparison, every JBL tweeter with the exception of the JBL "Bat Slayer" also comes up short...



Widget

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

What's your point Zilch?

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No point, particularly; the thread's about T-35s, and I'm just consolidating info about them here as I stumble across more....

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Originally Posted by Zilch

No point, particularly; the thread's about T-35s, and I'm just consolidating info about them here as I stumble across more....

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You're silly.

I think we've pretty well beaten the subject to death.


Widget

Mr. Widget, the similarity of your measurements to the old published curve is indeed remarkable and fascinating; thanks.

Good information about EV tweeters, T-35, T-35B , T-350 T-35A

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/...8/1117781.aspx

Actually that AudioExpress Plot of the T35 Was sourced frome me for Warrens article,, One of four,, And was tested and plot made at the St Louis Instatute for the deaf,,, In there Anachoic chamber.. useing a calibrated mic,. And is typical of that tweeter.

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Originally Posted by Maron Horonzakz

Actually that AudioExpress Plot of the T35 Was sourced frome me for Warrens article...

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As I said, they didn't do a good job of fact checking. :applaud:

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Originally Posted by Maron Horonzakz

And is typical of that tweeter.

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But seriously... how are you determining that it is typical of a properly working T35? I have measured a number of T35s, T35As, Klipsch K-77s and the later EV T35As with ceramic magnets and they vary from unit to unit in HF extension by a fair amount. The plot published in AudioExpress is worse than any I have measured.


Widget

Widget,,When i was young and in my prime... And talking to Paul Klipsch,, The supply of T35 s coming from Electro voice,,, Each was measured for a match to a close tolerence for the Khorns in a stereo pair,,, 30 percent were returned to EV,,as not meeting pauls tests & requirements,, George ashworth,, The scientist helping paul in the early problems of woofer complience,, was trying to get Paul to find a different source of tweeters,,, Paul stated he was getting them so cheap it was worth his time to test them all and return the rest. Later Paul bought the dies and machinery from EV,, Later all this was moved to the Pacific Rim,, Phenaulic diaphrams/voice coils were manufactured with sloppy tolerence in thickness and weight.. Frequency responce was all over the place,,, I have here diaphrams (12) no two match... Over the last three years they have gotten better. I,m sure you found some good T35s,,So did I,, But Bob Crites found the Emmenence APT-50 to be a better tweeter,, and had a copy of the EV T35 tweeter horn made to integrate to the HF driver,,, and now,, the super tweeter is good to 20K.

At this point in my life my hearing doesn't go much beyond 14khz, but when I was young it went beyond 20khz. At that time in my life I heard some T35s, they sounded shrill to me when compared to JBLs.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

Zilch's image posted below... this post taken from Storm's Altec +EV thread.

Below that I have posted a plot of three T-35s. The blue and green T-35s were taken from my Klipsch Belle clones and have been babied their whole lives so I'd suggest their response is likely as new... the red plot is from a K-horn... I have no idea how hard it may have been driven.

I'd say that for a bunch of vintage drivers these are following their original specified curve better than most that we see here and for the record, I'd say these are not the terrible tweeters that Maron and Zilch seem to think they are. I guarantee they produce higher frequencies than many here can actually hear. :p


Widget

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The EV T35, and especially the K 77 (because of Klipsch's testing and selection procedures), had a good rep, better than the JBL 075, among the dealers and engineers in the S.F. Bay Area (Berkeley Custom, Pro Audio, etc.) in the '60s and '70s. Their stores all carried both the K77 (in various Klipsch speakers) and the 075. In one case, I found my then young ears could hear a 16 K Hz tone from behind a Klipsch Cornwall (which used a K 77).

The curve Berkeley Custom Electronics ran looked a lot like the red curve in Mr. Widget's post. Widespread opinion was that the K 77 was smoother sounding than the 075.

As to the subjective nature of the sound, EV T35s and JBL 075s were both often turned up too far in demos. This certainly made both the EVs and JBLs sound too bright or, worse, "shrill." I believe (if memory serves) that all of the EV speaker systems (including the "building block" kits) had a "brilliance" control for the tweeters; the JBL networks had a balance control on the crossovers used with the 075, as well. Paul Klipsch never allowed one on his speakers, precisely because for this maladjustment reason. On the Klipsch factory anechoic of the Klipschorn I saw, the tweeter response was in a straight "average" line with the response of the midrange.