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I've been researching all weekend and can't find a definitive answer on this topic. I know we can't hear past 20k, hell some can't past 15k yet you'll see speakers going past 40k. Some say it helps w overall harmonics but I can't see how that helps when we can't hear it. Anyone have more insight?
Mind over matter.
The Japanese market, which is a force in the more expensive audio market, insists on it.
I am sure that there has been some real research on the subject, but anecdotally, I can report that an older fellow forum member who could not hear sine wave tones above 9KHz, absolutely could hear and appreciate the addition of a tweeter even when crossed into the system at 10KHz. Was this due to better transients? Was it because we hear complex sounds at higher frequencies than we can pure tones? I have no idea, but we tried a number of tests and he ALWAYS preferred the system that played "far above what he could hear."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown
Widget
Interesting...I may need to have a listen at my friends house and do a simple experiment covering and uncovering the VHF tweeter. The speakers in my house fizzle out at 20k. Thanks for the infoQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I assume these preferred systems were behind a curtain and he could neither see nor know that a tweeter was involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
If a tweeter is crossed into a system at 10 kHz then it is hopefully adding considerably to the power response. No surprise there.
No, I was manually connecting and disconnecting the tweeter without his knowledge.. not double blind and certainly not scientific, but it is an interesting anecdotal data point.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
Widget
You have the everest series correct? If memory serves me right don't those have a crossover point of 20k for the UHF? And if so do you get the same effect as the old member does?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
Interesting topic. My 1400's have an "airy" sound that I attribute somewhat to their extended response. My old ears can't hear much above 10k but I can hear those UHF tweeters very clearly.
I may be wrong but a transient at say 5k would have a similar rise time of a signal at say 40k. So high frequency transients would be "blunted" with a less extended speaker.
If you look at a square wave on an oscilloscope in a perfect world it will have sharp crisp traces creating boxes, if you filter the signal or have wire with less than ideal characteristics the corners will start to round... this is true at all frequencies. Even a very low frequency transient will have very high overtones required to keep the crisp box like response. The exact same thing occurs with musical information with fast transients... a bass drum has remarkably high frequency overtones.
Widget
I have temporarily disconnected the tweeters and I am not sure if I could hear a difference... perhaps playing an analog source through my entirely analog and wideband system I might have, and a younger person likely would hear the difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown
Widget
Or not.:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
We can sense sub sonic sounds without "hearing" the sound. It should work the same way up high. I have don't have that kind of sense. Or much sense at all, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
When my ex-wife got extra shrill, I swear I couldn't hear her, but I got headaches anyway. :dont-know:Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidF
All I can add is that the addition of a "super tweeter" greatly helped me with my JBL S/2600 speakers. A excerpt from the Tannoy ST50 information:
The ST50 SuperTweeterTM is designed to provide the extended high frequency response demanded by modern programme material and sources (e.g. SACD / DVDA), which have driven the requirement for loudspeakers with extended frequency bandwidth performance. By allowing the listener to experience a far wider range of bandwidth information of instruments than is currently possible with conventional loudspeakers, the new ST50 SuperTweeterTM from Tannoy completes the musical picture. It not only has the ability to resolve fine detail of high frequency notes but also effectively enhances the listening experience even at lower frequencies. Music contains transient information and rich harmonics beyond the range of human hearing for pure tones. Even bass notes have leading edge transients reaching 30kHz with other instrumentation extending yet further. The leading edge of a note, for instance the initial stick contact with the skin of a drum, is where vital transients occur. Conventional speaker designs with a frequency response upper limit restricted to 20kHz are unable to reproduce this essential detail. The Tannoy SuperTweeterTM however reproduces all these transients, operating between the roll off point of the existing loudspeakers and 54kHz; the SuperTweeterTM will accurately reproduce the leading edge of individual notes. This allows the listener to experience the entire bandwidth information of the recorded instruments, with the result that music information has restored to it the speed, impact and clarity.
I would have to witness such a spectacle first hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
More importantly, how do you like the sound of the 045 in the 1400 Array where it actually matters? At 20 kHz it is, of course, a laser beam, but up to that point it's pretty damn awesome eh?
A crossover point doesn't mean that below this point there's no output, it's a roll-off, depending on the slope you could have still very noticeable output below the crossover point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
a 6db/oct slope at 10kHz Xover point means that at 5kHz you still have 25% of the power output.
I would hope you would realize I am well aware of that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
In this case we were using a third order 10KHz crossover (18 dB/octave -3dB point at ~10KHz) so it was much sharper than your first order example, but sure, there is certainly some contribution and some effect on the sound even at 5KHz, but the point is that even in a case where one's hearing is fairly impaired while listening to music the addition of higher frequencies was more perceivable than one would have imagined.
Widget
As to what a younger person hears, when I was in high school I started building speakers and I remember hearing sine waves at just above 19KHz but I didn't quite hear 20KHz (though it is possible that my speakers at the time were more deficient than my hearing)... today the best I do is about 15KHz... not bad when you consider all of those youthful indiscretions with big JBLs blasting out rock and roll!Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
As to the 045Ti, I do think if I had my younger hearing I would insist on the Be version, but as it stands I am actually pretty satisfied with them.
Widget
My inconclusive and raw hypothesis is it all depends on the efficiency of the speaker as a whole. I've listened to a pair of Meyer Audio X10 and wow talk about dynamics but this speaker doesn't go past 20k and sounded better to me than a B&W Diamond 800 that goes past 20k. My theory is if a speaker has high effieincy and dynamics a UHF tweeter isn't needed
I have heard the Tannoy super tweeters in a couple of applications... they are good. That paragraph however is marketing dept. BS. It may be rooted in facts, but it is still BS.Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1040
Two decades prior to the amazing advent of SACD and DVDA we had glorious analog with mics, preamps, amps, and and analog tape all quite capable of 30KHz or higher... most high quality vinyl playback systems will reproduce these frequencies and back then there were many loudspeaker systems that would and could reproduce these frequencies... limited bandwidth is a rather recent phenomenon created by the limitations of the 44.1KHz sampling rate of red book CD.
Widget
That is an entirely different topic... not a worthless topic, but a separate subject entirely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundown
I agree that dynamics are very important to a sense of musicality or "realness" but it appears that different listeners have differing requirements or perhaps more or less willingness to tolerate systems with lower dynamics. The Revel Ultima Salon2 is a superior speaker in many ways than the Meyer X-10 or the JBL Everest, yet it can not compete with either of these in terms of dynamics. Apparently for you, and definitely for me, the more dynamic speaker is the more enjoyable one.
Widget
Ah gotcha!! I guess me playing the guitar and loving live music may skew my view haQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
That may be true. I did not write that. Plus, I suspect that most if not all companies marketing departments produce BS-including JBL. My point was to simply provide an experience that I had with speakers that do not have a UHF tweeter and the difference it made to MY ears. After occuring a sudden reduction in hearing in my left ear about 5 years ago, I bought the Tannoys. I am simply stating I could hear a difference-not that it magically corrected my hearing, but it did help with the HF(and LF).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I didn't mean to sound like I was damning the messenger. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1040
Widget
I May be the oldest member on this forum,,,The mid driver (TAD) is good to about 18k,,,But when I add a super tweeter above that,,,i can hear an improvement ,,useing an electronic xover 2 way or 3 way,,,,,,,I dont know why but it sounds better,,,And i know my hearing is not good for my age,,,,
I agree with this statement-almost. I had a grand time with the higher sensitvity S/2600 horn speakers w/Tannoy ST50 driven by a lightly taxed McIntosh MC402 amp-dynamics that seem 'missing' with the Arrays. I could push the S/2600's to pretty high SPL with, according to me and others, great satisfaction. However, as far as I am concerned, the Arrays sound, to me, more like a 'regular' speaker than a horn loaded one-which to my ears, is outstanding. To push the Arrays too hard may cause harm to them, I believe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I think the term dynamic may mean different things to different people.
To be honest I saw this thread in diagonal and didn't remember really who posted, yes I'm sure you're aware of that :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
18dB/octave is pretty steep, but I wonder how much is still there at 8 or 9k...
I'm sure that case difference could be heard, I'm just not sure it was because of the extended response.
Lots of interesting comments. If one was to add a supertweeter at like 18k, would that be a good place to start a crossover point?
Seriously?
If addressed to me, yea. I feel comfortable w every other aspect of audio except crossover schematics. I just learned how to get the jest of reading them and was curious how easy it would be to add something that would pick up freq in the 20k plus range when a mid driver begins to fizzle at 20k. Not asking for a tutorial just curious.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
I would also be interested in this. Perhaps this is not the place to ask, but for some of us, learning from others on this site is rewarding. Knowledge is king.
My opinion is that you already have one of the best implementations of a UHF in your 1400 Arrays.Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1040
The Tannoy UHF is rather friendly given the frequency and efficiency selections available. I don't think the JBL over the counter version is nearly as versatile.
With a little research one can see how JBL used the 045 UHF in quite a few systems. My personal opinion is that they sound considerably better brought in around 10 kHz as opposed to 20 kHz. :D I have fundamental issues with spending over a grand on UHF transducers and then crossing them over at 20 kHz. :rotfl:
If you really want a supertweeter and want to stay old-school JBL, you can modify a 2402 (075) with a 2405 (077) diaphgram, put an elastomeric filter (i.e., a rubber band) on it, and take it out way beyond 20kHz. The elastomeric filter reduces the annular space filtering frequencies out below ~10kHz while increasing the dispersion. Of course you pay the price in dB (~10), but these are so efficient anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddalin
Thanks for the insight!! I'll look more into this.
bought a tv repair book at the library for 35 cents.
printed in 1958..
one of the topics mentioned was the fact that lower
video frequencies made for a foundation for the image.
the higher frequencies filled in the details,
the leading edge of wave forms,
and the slight variations within.
the faster these are reproduced,
the more realistic the 'image' will seem.
isn't that about the same with audio?