So it won't be obscured by the Array Series discussion, I wanted to get the new Studio L Series some air time. It's no slouch.
So here we go!
http://www.cinenow.com/us/article.php3/id,1838/
Printable View
So it won't be obscured by the Array Series discussion, I wanted to get the new Studio L Series some air time. It's no slouch.
So here we go!
http://www.cinenow.com/us/article.php3/id,1838/
For an extended view, go here. Don't be fooled by the beginning; keep reading until you get to the loudspeaker specific information.
http://blog.ce-pro.com/news/products/2131.html
All right, look at the value equation on these babies. It's fantastic.
Cost-wise these slot in above the E Series and just barely above the HT Series. It meshes pretty well price wise with the current Studio Series, but it's a whole lot more. It's a full-bodied series with real towers and a real center, which the Studio Series lacks.
It appears that it's a lot more value than either the HT or the Studio Series, and IMO fills a big consumer gap between the E Series and the Performance Series. The HT Series and Studio Series may not be long for this world.
In fact, it might be a better value equation than the Performance Series, though until I hear it, that's pure conjecture. Can it beat the PS? Well, of course not :p because those "PolyPlas™ polymer-coated-cellulose-fiber cone" drivers are my third favorite. #1? Ti inverted domes, of course!
Still the prices are far less than half the PS prices... :hmm:
At first I was pleased to see the return of the Studio series, they were the speakers that I liked to reccomend to friends. (S-38 in particular)
But now I'm just annoyed. They have added a useless super tweeter that no human will be able to hear. Crossover frequency at 20 Khz? They couldn't find any better way to spend the money than to add this useless marketing gimmick? How many engineers must have protested this nonsense? It must be the Monster cable effect, they figure that if Monster can make millions selling improvements that no one can actually hear, they should get in on the act too. It's another decision that puts marketing ahead of sound quality.
to be fair we must look at the big picture here. It takes years to brainstorm, design, test prototypes, redesign, setup production and produce a speaker. In fact the speaker you see being released today may have it's beginning in brainstorming back in 2001 or 2002 or even earlier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C
at that time the mantra for the entire industry was:
SACD and DVD-audio
SACD and DVD-audio
SACD and DVD-audio
SACD and DVD-audio
reproduce the entire spectrum from 20 to 50,000!!!!
Look at the current K2 and it too was following this mantra ( ahead of other speakers) and of course one of the purposes of the statement speakers is to provide R&D for new ideas and technogies that will over the next few years trickle down into the less expensive speakers lines.
So my point here is that the super tweeter you see today in the Studio L speakers is not just a cheap marketing ploy, but instead an attemp to incorporate the latest tech in the mass speaker lines( altho in a less expensive implemenation). And any company who takes pride in their products will NEVER allow their products to appear OLD TECH. they just can't do it in todays market.
Also, we must understand the general purpose or rational behind the studio speaker line( if I understand this correctly). If the Northridge series is the general speaker for the masses, then the studio line is their "Statement Speaker" for the masses, incorporating as much new tech from their studio and high-end statement speakers as possible but at a much less expensive implemenation.
so I'm really liking what they have done and I'm looking forward to hearing these puppies and I will most likely buy some when they're out ( have to sell something else first)
well, got to go to work. I'll write more later if I get the time.
Hey, JBL thanks for the new speakers..we love ya..
Hi DRG or Techbot: ( I hope you see this)
I have some questions I wanted to ask about in the Array thread ( because I know someone from JBL is looking) However, since the Array thread has been closed??????? I have to go here.
1. Are there White Papers or a Brochure for the new Studio L series ( scans or PDF would be OK)
2. Are the Studio L series going to be in Best Buy or other mass market stores like the previous studio series was at Best Buy some time ago and what is the release date on them?
Thanks.....
Yes, I'll second that request. :yes:
Hey Dome:
any idea why the Array thread was closed????
I suspect because it turned into JBL bashing.... :(
Couple of salient points here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C
1) Just because the crossover point is 20KHz, does NOT mean that there IS NOT any output BELOW 20KHz. Most likely, these will have a first-order slope... which means their output will only be 9 dB down at 10KHz. Still enough to augment a falling response from a dome tweeter (they all tend to "roll over" at 15KHz or so, noticably, at least those capable of low end heft (ie, crossover points lower than 2.5KHz for the main tweeter).
2) Even IF they only primarily only operate above 20KHz, there are STILL SIGNIFICANT PHASE CONSIDERATIONS, down to TWO OCTAVES below that. To get a system linear (ie, NO drop off between 20 and 40KHz) in the upper range, will GREATLY help the phase response of the system, even down to 5kHz.
3) and the proof being in the pudding and all that... I've HEARD the difference made, with adding supertweeters to speakers "nominally rated" to go up to 20KHz already. Even very highly-regarded speakers such as Martin-Logan Prodigys, have AUDIBLY benefited, in my direct first-hand experience, from the addition of a supertweeter such as the Tannoy ST100 or the LCY 100K ribbon supertweeter. The surprising thing? The BIGGEST percieved benefit, is in BASS FEEl... the actual perception of TRANSIENTS in the BASS, such as the plucking of an upright bass, and such. It simply, to say it in normal terms, makes bass MORE LIKE LIFE. And this difference has been shown to exist on SEVERAL different types of speakers, here at my location.. adding the supertweeters to Tannoy S10s, JBL L100s, EV 12TRXbs (which already had modified crossovers, which "propped up" their response to around 18 or 19KHz!)... a wide variety of different models...
Don't discount the potential benefit of a supertweeter, just because old textbook thinking says they're "unnecesary". Heck, at one point "conventional wisdom" also said you didn't need response below 30 Hz either. Funny how things change, as the ability to MEET NEW PERFORMANCE levels readily, comes about...
Regards,
Gordon.
I was afraid of that......It's just that it can be frustrating for us fans when we can't find what we love. I'm sure there are many things we don't know about and in our ignorance we bash ...sigh,Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilch
Anyway, I really hope that Best Buy or another store will carry the new Sudio L line. Really looks exciting and I'm sure they would sell well.
I bought the Studio S312 ( wish I had bought the 412 also) back about 41/2 ( or 5) years ago and I'm still amazed at how good it sounds and the price - WOW - what a bargin. They really sound as good or better than speakers 2 or 4 times their price and with the new improvements I'm sure they'll sound even better. I guided to lot of friends to that series and they are all pleased and now JBL fans.From what i've read they worked on areas that I thought they should. These should be outstanding speakers for the money.
As much as we "old timers" still live in the "glory days" of the JBL speakers from the 70's or the old studio montiors, the new speakers are really better in so many ways, even those that are designed for the masses. I know that's not a popular theme on this site, but it's true. 30 to 20 years of R&D has made a difference IMHO and a lot of that is incorporated into the less expensive lines.
Exactly, it is the transients and upper harmonics that tell us much of the character of what we hear, even the bass. My experience follows alone the same lines. AND thats' one of the reasons why I'm so excited about these new speakers. It's exactly what they needed to do. I'm also glad to see some internal bracing and other things.Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonW
I'll know that their decision was based on sound engineering when I see the same supertweeter on the LSR series.
so having it on the flagship K2 isn't good enough for you? :blink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C
No, totally different situation, the K2 needs the supertweeter, and crossover is at 10 Khz.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
and you think the beryllium 435Be compression driver couldn't have made it to 20,000 if they wanted to? Look at what they did with aluminum on other systems ( 4430 comes to mind)
These are the most experienced people on the planet in designing compression drivers and implementing them into systems. If they can get aluminum and titanium to go to 20,000 in systems I have no doubt that beryllium could have, Tad seems to have done it pretty good.
The supertweeter was NOT needed in the K2 , it was choosen. They could have gotten the 435Be to do upto 20,000 very easily.
I may question some things about JBL, (marketing for example) and have a few bitches here or there. But one thing I don't question is the engineering talent and knowledge these people have. This is the company that has more experience in testing their products than any other company.
I really don't think that GT and the other engineers sit around and think about how they can flim-flam people with useless Tricks to get people to buy, nor do I think they are ignorant about what they put in their speakers.
well anyway, you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm thru writing about this aspect of the Studio L.
hey guys any white papers or brochures. Sure could use some objective data, particualrly with the super tweeter :D
I agree with your premise that the "DC to Light" specs that are being sought after today are mostly market driven, but I have heard many of the best compression drivers from JBL and TAD and none of them reproduce 20KHz (or 18KHz for that matter) as well as the 045Be.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
I agree with this statement. I would suggest that it was chosen to make the K2-S9800 a much better speaker than it would have been without it... and I am not talking about the performance above 20KHz either. There is simply a finesse to the sound that it wouldn't have if they had muscled the 435Be into super tweeter duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
Widget
OK, where's the supertweeter bolt-on for the Performance Series? I smell a project!
Who's going first? :bouncy:
I have already gone. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
I'd say there's a difference between 045Be and the monolythic mylar doodah they're using in L-Series.
I doubt they'll replace the 053Tis in LSR with either anytime soon....
[Or is it "dudah?"]
Well, it may not be a Ti inverted dome, but how about this Be inverted dome for ya?Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
Widget
true, but I also meant that they can design the whole system around that. They have lots of experience with pure two ways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
and also, they didn't have to use a tweeter that went that high. They could have used something that only went to 20 to 22. I personally feel thay think it was for better sound.
Is that the one used in JM Labs speakers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I was thinking of using that one for a project.
You are right on the mark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
Doesn't need one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
Well, I'd argue that the 045Be really does only go to 20 or 22KHz... it goes out to 50KHz but it is so far down in output compared to it's output at 10KHz.... not that it really matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
Personally I don't care if the marketing department wants to make a big deal about a speaker that only dogs can hear as long as it sounds good to humans too.:applaud:
Yep. I doubt you will be able to get them though. Like so many companies, the nice people at Focal are getting out of the DIY business.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
Widget
Well, Whit ( My GS) would like it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I can get one from some friends who sell JM Labs. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer
Agree, just need some CC crossovers......... :applaud:
and maybe a single baffle box ;)
:hmm:
They're 045Ti, actually, not Be....
Well who really cares what you agree and don't agree with, this is an open forum community and your comments to an open media sound like a judgement call than moderation...check your RULES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
AS usual you are all right and you are all wrong.
Pity the facts are not correctly and fully represented.:snore:
So for moderators casting their own limited and naive technical stature in a discussion....that should be chiselled as a Do NOT into the rule book.
Yawn...............
Ian
Some of you might be surprised why I am making these post.
No I am not picking on the Widget..but he wants to have a hard look at himself in the mirror...denial is a disease.
Today I cleaned my in and out box. To my surprise over a dozen messages were issues raised in reference to moderation notabely conduct of moderators.
Its rather unfortunately that in such a high profile forum we have people who simply do not practise what they preach. Its not surprising they get such a tough time of it from members.......
You as a member have a right to a PUBLIC answer of that question raised.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
A non answer is misleading and deceptive in conduct.
For moral and ethical reasons Don should come forward an offer an explanation.
Ian
Here's my real quick explanation. I don't want to waste too much of my life's time on something elaborate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
1. I asked that the thread be closed.
2. The story behind my request is long, dates back to a friendly request from JBL made over a year ago, has to do with Harman Japan, Northridge, and Woodbury, and I don't feel like getting into it. Take my word for it, the story is boring; quite uninteresting.
3. JBL had the opportunity to review the thread.
4. JBL graciously sent over some documents for us.
5. The thread can now be opened if desired.
Thanks Lancer,
At least someone is on the ball....and I admire your candid and transparent disclosure.
Its about playing the game straight you have to be playing the game straight.
If those in a position of responsibility can't abide by the rules they should step aside..period. Thankfully someone has come forward.
Earl,
This is not a knee jerk reaction, you must think I am asleep, read on:
I expect this issue will wind up there. The problem with controls is that the controls themselves tend to lack the documentation of the enforcement.
That's my point, Moderators have the advantage of sitting behind a one way mirror just like a detective cop TV show...what you see is only part of the picture...layers of it.
The point is by virtue of Moderator status being an Icon, a moderator can influence, steer or manipulate the direction of a thread whether an opinion is intended or other wise and this is an area we as a community need to deal with. Many forum members feel inhibited or frightened off by the presence of a moderator in threads, and to use those words highlighted in RED is frankly a blight on free speaking members..... This is not the purpose of moderation.
If a moderator wishes to enter a discussion, a mechanism needs to be developed where the moderator icon is turned off or they enter the thread on another identity.
As to the rules I refer to the highlighted RED paragraphs below:
YOU will note the reference to Forums issues, below is a link to the last posted thread in Forum Issues, how appropriate...
Happy B-Day Ian
Moderators will only intervene if they discover violations of the forum guidelines. In general, this means:
1. Dealing with threads in inappropriate forums.
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3. Dealing with name calling or ad hominem attacks.
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The following actions are available to the moderators to deal with these issues, depending on the type and severity of the violation.
1. Issuing the subject party a reminder or warning about a potential or existing violation of the forum guidelines.
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The first recourse for a moderator should always be to try and work out any perceived infraction of the guidelines with the responsible member. This is preferably done through PM’s as opposed to an open forum message to that member. However, there may be occasions where an open post is most appropriate, specifically if it involves infractions by more than one person in a given thread.
If a moderator deems that a thread should be moved, the originator of that thread must always be contacted to explain the action through a PM. Whether this occurs in advance or after the fact depends on how clear cut the violation is. For example someone posting a “for sale” notice in the “General” forum is in obvious violation of the posting guidelines. Such a post would be moved directly and the originator would sent a PM to notify him of the move and why it occurred.
Where it is less clear that a thread is off topic, then the originator should be sent a PM in advance of any action to indicate why it is perceived to be in violation of the guidelines and offering an opportunity for input from the originator. The final decision to move or keep the thread will be the moderator’s.
Closing a thread to further input is a fairly drastic measure and should only be used if it is apparent that continuing the discussion has a significant risk of escalating violations. The moderator taking this action must post a final message in the thread explaining that it is now closed and why. The moderator should also let it be known that questions about this action can be made in the “Forum Issues” board or in a direct PM to the moderator in question.
Deleting posts and threads are the most serious actions a moderator can take short of banning a member. The actions themselves have the potential to inflame members and discussions. Because of this, the first recourse of a moderator should be to ask a member in violation to edit or delete the offending post themselves. After 24hrs of posting, members no longer have editing access to their messages. In such a case, the moderator should request permission to edit or delete an offending post. If permission is not granted, the moderator has the final decision on whether to proceed with the edit or deletion. The originator must be contacted again if these actions are taken and given notice that they have occurred. For all posts edited or deleted by the moderator, the post field labelled “Reason for edit/deletion” must be filled out by that moderator.
Posts can be deleted or edited without prior notice by the moderator if it is obvious that waiting for notification has the potential to escalate a situation. For example, profane name calling will be dealt with immediately. Violations of intellectual property rights (posting proprietary or copyrighted materials) will also be dealt with immediately when brought to a moderator’s attention. In these cases, the originator must be notified that these actions have been taken.
All deletions by the moderators are “soft deletions”, meaning they are not physically removed. These posts can therefore be “undeleted”. If a member feels that his post has been unfairly deleted by a moderator, they can make an appeal to the Administrator to have the post reviewed. The Administrator will consult with all of the moderators to make a final decision. If, in hindsight, the post is deemed to not be in violation, it will be restored. Otherwise it will remain deleted.
Deleting a thread is an order of magnitude more serious than deleting a post since it generally involves messages from numerous members, and very often innocent bystanders. This action shall only be taken if it the infractions cannot be dealt with by deleting or editing specific posts. For example, if a sufficient number of posts must be deleted so that it results in the loss of coherency of a thread, then the thread may be deleted. As a further example, if the thread topic itself is in violation of the forum rules, then the entire thread may be deleted. All thread deletions must be accompanied by a new post by the moderator in the “Forum Issues” board with notice that the deletion has occurred, the rationale for the deletion, and an offer to discuss an appeal. The entire moderating team will decide any appeal requests to restore a deleted thread.
Banning is the most serious action that can be taken on the forum. Banning can only be performed by the administrator with concurrence of the moderators. Banning can be temporary or permanent depending on the infraction. For example, physical threats will result in an immediate permanent ban. Spammers will also be subject to an immediate permanent ban. Lesser offences will be dealt with on a case by case basis by the entire moderating team. In general, banning will be limited to repeated, flagrant abuses by a member or abuse so egregious that no action short of banning would suffice. In the case of repeated abuse, the moderators should first warn the offender that continued violations have the potential to result in a ban
In every case, a banned member will be sent an email notifying them of the ban's existence, the duration and the reason. The member may appeal to the moderating team to reconsider. Bans will only be reconsidered if the member can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the entire moderating team why a ban would be inappropriate for the circumstances.
As a final word, it should be obvious in reading through the above that openness, communication and understanding are the guiding principles of moderation for this forum. For this reason, the moderators must never act without making the impacted parties aware of their actions. They must always give reasons for their actions and opportunities for recourse.
__________________
Regards
Don McRitchie
Webmaster
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The moderators are some of the most knowledgeable and well respected people on the site and I appreciate and enjoy reading posts with opinions and am capable of judging the difference between moderating tasks and opinions.
I miss seeing more posts from the moderators. I feel their inputs have been the foundation of the site. I hope we dont establish rules that make them reconsider every posted opinion. Bottom line I appreciate informed input about speakers, opinions or fact if based on intelligence and thought.
All right
I go to bed, I get up, the thread has gone completely OT, there are references like this that make no sense to me (reference from Lancer removed maybe?). :wtf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
Two threads that were exciting to me, one on the Array Series and now this one on the Studio L Series, are now messsed up. I just wanted to talk about new JBL speakers. This is big news, good news.
What's really going on here? Obviously I'm clueless. :dont-know
Oh yeah, I removed it. Feel free to reinstate my post if desired. I figured Don could say it better than I could.
My mother cares! Beyond that take it with what ever type of salt you like. Of course its an opinion. I can back it up with facts and figures and we can start a thread debating it if you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
The rules specifically state that contradictory view points and criticisms are OK as long as they are not about fellow forum members.
Now, if I were to call you a jerk, that would be out of line so I never would. I wouldn't even publicly say you were acting like one, which in my opinion is different than being one, but as I all too often do, I digress.
Widget
It's been undeleeted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer
Thanks, that helps a bit.
i agree with TD. this started out to be a good thread...i precieved no infraction or condesention, someone agrees with someone else in a friendly way...why would anyone feel insult? :wtf:
Ditto...... :dont-knowQuote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
All I have to say is you moderators have to communicate more. The moderator who closed the thread was right in doing so. The irritating point from my perspective is that the thread wasn't immediately put on ice right after Earl started it so JBL could validate what was on their website and give the thumbs up (errors have been made before *). Everyone knew discussing Project Array was off limits, it has been for over a year, and the moderator who closed the thread was acting on that knowledge. JBL did give the thumbs up and even sent along some documents to add to the site. The thread can be opened anytime any moderator wishes to open it. This is one of the very few times JBL has asked anything of us and frankly, abiding by their wishes wasn't a hardship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
* Reference several Service Center and Dealer members posting about being unable to get anything from JBL concerning Project Array. There was a reason for that.
That's for sure. We sure can look pretty silly at times. In my life outside of these discussion forums I can look pretty silly too, so I guess I am comfortable wearing that hat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancer
Mr. Dome,
I am sorry to have continued the OT portion of this thread... maybe like Zilch and others with several quotes at the bottom of their posts, I should add a signature to my postings... something to the effect of "I'm liable to veer off topic without any notice..." and also a disclaimer that "any opinions expressed or implied are only those of the poster."
As for my apparent altercation with a fellow moderator... I am rather confused about that one myself.
Widget
PS. I for one find it interesting when people post threads about the various new series from JBL. I would probably never discover them otherwise.
"My mother cares!" would be good.... ;)
None of of us have any entitlement to read, post, or demand answers from anyone else here. We are guests, and the site founder sets a fine example of courtesy and patience to put up with us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
Precisely correct, and well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Don C
Now, can we talk about speakers?
Thanks!
Regards,
Gordon.
Holly Molly!!
What's going on around here???
'Now, can we talk about speakers?
Thanks!"
Yeah good idea! Let's try this again.
Rob:)
Yes, there's nothing worse than a speakers that insists on buzzing and rattling.
Perhaps we all need an Aquaplas coating, stop rattling and start listening
I've already ordered mine:D
But some things just won't stop rattling, isn't that right.
Ian
...browsing the post and wanted to clear up some of the questions/comments.
But now I'm just annoyed. They have added a useless super tweeter that no human will be able to hear. Crossover frequency at 20 Khz? They couldn't find any better way to spend the money than to add this useless marketing gimmick? The tweeter and supertweeter crossover is right around 20khz for all models. It's low order and helps keep the system frequency and phase response linear up and through 20khz. On one hand the super tweeter was incorparated as a trickle-down from the top of the line array/K2 speakers - introducing some continuity throughout the JBL line from the flagships through the less expensive models. On the other hand it was something that was desired as much as or more by JBL Europe than in the US. The StudioL line is sold throughout the world, not just the US like the previous Studio series.
they figure that if Monster can make millions selling improvements that no one can actually hear, they should get in on the act too. It's another decision that puts marketing ahead of sound quality
I would disagree. Harman spends millions on R&D and argualby nothing on advertising. Whens the last time you saw an ad for a JBL consumer speaker? I would even go so far as to argue that sometimes we put sound quality too far ahead of aesthetics. Each and every JBL speaker goes through a battery of objective and subjective evaluation for sound quality before it can be approved for production. Every company could do this if they had millions in research facilities but fortunately for us they don't.
....No, totally different situation, the K2 needs the supertweeter, and crossover is at 10 Khz.
....and you think the beryllium 435Be compression driver couldn't have made it to 20,000 if they wanted to? Look at what they did with aluminum on other systems ( 4430 comes to mind)
no the 435Be and 435Ti don't make it to 20khz. They have 3" diaphrams. They were designed from the outset to have maximum low frequency output (down to 400Hz) and not for extended frequency response. The 045Be/045Ti UHF's both have frequency response from 4kHz and on the high end they're 6dB down above 40kHz. The 435/045-based systems are awesome. With the crossover points to the 435 at or below 800Hz in all models the systems really kicks some serious rear end. We're talking extremely smooth frequency response and dispersion throughout; and of course they'll play distortion free as loud as you can take it. The new JBL Synthesis One lineup is also based on the 435/045 horn loaded compression drivers. Just to note, the crossover point between the 435 and 045 is 9Khz.
I'd say there's a difference between 045Be and the monolythic mylar doodah they're using in L-Series.
yes, the 045 is a serious piece of R&D. The Studio L supertweeter has a custom designed phase plug and waveguide but it's not a compression driver. Nevertheless it's a nice UHF tweeter and performs well.
I'll know that their decision was based on sound engineering when I see the same supertweeter on the LSR series.
JBL Professional and Harman Consumer Group are two different companies. While we live next to each other in Northridge and share technology both companies have their own aganda. JBL Pro needs stuff to play loud, be light, and be array-based. The JBL Pro studio monitors are their own thing. Flat frequency response, high power handling with low distortion and low power compression. Not to mention the 6300 series is based on the old LSR28/32 models and uses the 053Ti which has been around for years. The 053Ti does have a nice frequency response that extends past 20khz but it costs $50 to manufacture and is not practicle in the price range of even a studio L series price point.
About the Studio L series in general I'm very happy with how it turned out. Once again JBL has not cut back on the number of models offered. There's a full line of floor standers, book shelfs, centers, on walls, and sub. Also, the enclosure design and build has continued to set some high benchmarks. Harman (with JBL and Infinity) were the first speaker company to start using some beautifully shaped mass produced wood/vinyl enclosures (starting with the Infinity Interlude series) and the Studio L is no exception. When you get close to the stuff they look just as good as they sound...
Jeez, good thing I spelled "doodah" correctly.... :D
Damage control is now on the scene....very tempting...hmm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilch
:rotfl: I think you meant "doodad." :rotfl:
sorry :o: Don't take the miracle wire back.
I KNOW you been secretly usin' that wire. ;)
Nice authoritative post that I appreciate. Nice to see you here, and please do post similarly in the future as needed. Good info from a right-sounding source.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL8827
[qoute=JBL8827]Each and every JBL speaker goes through a battery of objective and subjective evaluation for sound quality before it can be approved for production. Every company could do this if they had millions in research facilities but fortunately for us they don't.[/quote]
I'd sure love to know more about this process. I read bits and pieces about the Northridge campus and it's world-leading facilities. For example:
http://stereophile.com/news/10201/
http://www.reed-electronics.com/tmwo.../CA475937.html
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ks-4-2004.html
But I'd love to know the basic process employed in developing these Studio L Series.
I wonder if it's working. I bet Harman has spent money studying the market to see what would happen if they spent real money on advertising and a bit more on aesthetics. I bet they ran the numbers and found their desired profit curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL8827
They do spend money on advertising for Synthesis and those funny little computer speakers... just not high fidelity. I am just thankful they are still doing the R&D and turning out new product.
Widget
don't be bothered by me. I'm just a little guy here. I just happen to have some insight. I'm one of systems engineers just checking out the forum and posted during my lunch hour. I'm not primarily responsible for the Studio L series but let's just say I sit next to the guy who is and I'm extremely familiar with it :D I work primarily on JBL and I've been the primary engineer for the JBL Synthesis range for about 5 years now and I've been working for a good part of the last 12 months with the 435/045/175ND compression drivers as they are used in the new Synthesis line. I've also worked a bit with JBL Pro and did some work with the LSR28/LSR32's so this thread was interesting to me and I thought I would reply.
I wonder if it's working. I bet Harman has spent money studying the market to see what would happen if they spent real money on advertising and a bit more on aesthetics. I bet they ran the numbers and found their desired profit curve.
very good observation. This was something I questioned when I starting working for harman out of college 7 years ago. We are spending money more and more on advertising. The company is being run so smart and so efficiently now - it's really nice. JBL consumer has actually sort of come a long way. If you think about it JBL car audio always had fantastic products, but 5 years ago you couldn't find it anywhere. No advertising. Not many dealers. I myself could barely get a hold of a pair of 508GTi's! After a few years of aggressive campaigning and overhauling the dealer infrastructure they're all over the place now. ..advertising in the magazines, sponsoring the top car audio guys...and the product is actually great stuff. What a concept. ;)
There's some aggressive ad campaigns coming out in the next 6 months, print ad in magazine and public places etc...for JBL and harman kardon stuff.
I'd sure love to know more about this process. I read bits and pieces about the Northridge campus and it's world-leading facilities
yeah it's really something else. We actually have people in all the time for tours of the facilities and presentations and stuff. Dealers, print media, etc...and it's actually true, it's not b.s. sometimes to the chagrin of us systems engineering guys. Sometimes we are very proud of our prototype product and we have no reservations about making it and going into production but nevertheless we've got to go through tons of measurements, documentation, and subjective testing before we can proceed. Really cramps the timeline!
Welcome to the forum JBL8827. What do you think of the rest of this site? Have you looked through the Library and the Profile pages?
Thank you for the posts.
Nice to have your input JBL8827( and DRG too). Glad to see your posts. It's refreshing to hear from the JBL staff.
Well, I've had to eat my words about the 435Be a couple of times on this thread, I got a little carried away as I was somewhat steamed ( shall we say - pissed-off) when I wrote that. But my basic position stays the same. I don't think JBL NEEDED the tweeter to go so high, I believed it was a choice ( marketing AND engineering), I could be wrong.
When the time is right, some "white papers" or other info on the studio L would be appreciated by many forum members I'm sure( like what was provided for the Array series). Of course we understand that info can only be released when the company is ready.
Anyway, welcome to the forum and thank you for you're input. It was really needed. By the way, one word of caution....This forum can be REALLY ADDICTING :D ;)
As others are chiming in, your participation here is very welcome. Given the wide and diverse nature of our forum membership, it gets to be a bit of a free for all here at times. The information you provided gives insight into the complexity of the process and myriad of issues behind the development of a new loudspeaker system that I don't think everyone realizes. Therefore, I hope you stick around. Any opportunity for understanding benefits us mutually.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBL8827
From Harmanaudio.com come Studio L Series prices:
LC1 $499 each
LC2 $599 each
L810 $650 pair
L820 $750 pair
L830 $750 pair
L880 $700 each
L890 $799 each
Here is my limited report, I would like to hear from folks who have auditioned these speakers in a better environment:
http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbull...ead.php?t=8810
Post #12
-- Brandy
Here's how the Studio L Series starts 2006. It's mostly familiar verbiage, but a little deeper in a couple of places.
Quote:
from Frank Doris, FM Group Public Relations
JBL Studio L Series: Bringing Professional Studio-Quality Sound to Home Listeners
JBL’s Studio L Series of home theater and stereo loudspeakers includes eight high-performance models that incorporate a host of design innovations and technologies directly derived from the company’s professional recording studio monitors to achieve exceptional sonic accuracy and musical realism. Along with superlative performance, JBL Studio L Series loudspeakers offer expanded installation options, and feature a distinctively contemporary design that complements every décor and home entertainment installation.
The Studio L Series includes two wall-mount/bookshelf monitors (models L810 and L820); a compact bookshelf loudspeaker (model L830); two floorstanding towers (models L880 and L890); two dedicated center channel loudspeakers (models LC1 and the wall-mountable LC2) and a 12-inch, 600-watt powered subwoofer (model L8400P). Suggested retail prices for the Studio L Series range from $650 to $1,598 per pair (SRP).
A key JBL innovation that is incorporated into every Studio L Series loudspeaker (except the L8400P subwoofer) is a newly developed ultrahigh-frequency horn transducer that provides extended frequency response to 40kHz. The UHF transducer is complemented by a pure-titanium-dome tweeter housed within an EOS waveguide, both configured in a “room friendly” design that delivers sound that’s closer to the real-life sound heard in the concert hall, and re-creates the acoustic environment captured on the original recording.
Studio L Series woofers and midrange drivers incorporate refinements such as JBL’s PolyPlas polymer-coated cellulose-fiber cones, which provide smooth frequency response with faster transients, and allow for higher playback levels without distortion. JBL Studio L Series loudspeakers also feature a host of additional enhancements, such as cabinets that are significantly improved from previous Studio Series models to minimize the possibility of sonic coloration from internal resonances, and JBL’s Straight-Line Signal Path (SSP) crossover network, which ensures maximum sonic purity.
JBL Studio L Series models offer wall-, stand- and floor-mounting installation options to accommodate any home theater or music system, and are available in a cherry, beech or black-ash finish, making it easy to complement any home décor.
I am very new to this forum, I came here for information on a product I was/am interested in purchasing. I have little opinion on the esoterics of speaker design, and many of the opinions in this thread were from folks who never listened to the speakers they were dishing. This was not very helpful in making a a purchasing decision, there were members who posted useful information, to them THANK YOU very much.
So to help another newbie who stumbles across this forum from a Google search I offer an excerpt from my thread on another forum:
….
“After spending a lot of time reading and auditioning some speaker's I'm keeping my JBL L100's for the time being.
I looked at several brands and came down to Definitive Tech, and JBL Studio L Series. I found it amazing how much it would cost to replace 30-year-old speakers.
My L100's have not been abused used almost every day for 30 years. They will require some touchup.
It was necessary to purchase a new A/V Receiver, to get what I needed/wanted required me to go up market, which put a big dent in the piggy bank. I got a Denon 4306.
As soon as I hooked this amp up I was immediately impressed with how much material comes out of the center channel and how little comes out of the surrounds.
I had auditioned the JBL LC1 and it was apparent that the LC1 was "under powered" for the job in my system. Any center channel of lesser quality I knew would not be worth trying.
I could not find a LC2 locally to listen to but I did find an almost complete JBL Studio Series L setup at a local Fry's so I had a good idea what a LC1 and L890's sounded like. Over all the mid-range and high range are excellent, I was disappointed in the bass, a really good sub is required. AKA L890 2x 8inch sub does NOT EQUAL one 12" sub in a L100.
So I ordered a LC2 from B&H Photo, it came in yesterday, I got it properly installed today and I'm very impressed at how natural it sounds.
For those doing a surround sound system DONOT SKIMP on those front speakers espc. the center channel.
I'll try the Definitive Tech LCR but I think the LC2 will do the trick.
Current 5.1 setup: A/V Rec-Amp Denon 4306, Front-L/R JBL L100A, Center JBL LC2, Sub JBL PB10, Surrounds JBL LX22's. Well it's not perfect but sounds much better than my prior configuration. “
…
-- Brandy
Hi Brandy. It's often estimated that a new run of L100s would cost $2-2.5k per pair if manufactured today. That's just taking into account inflation, and probably doesn't reflect the fact that the cost of making those cabinets increased more than the rate of inflation.
I have two pairs of the original L100 Century speakers (all the drivers are in a line from top to bottom) and wouldn't give them up, even though there are some folks who like to run them down. :scold: The L100s are not the best speakers I own by a long shot, but they're among my favorites.
Even though the Studio L Series seems expensive compared to our L100s, remember we were paying $273 each back in 1971. I just checked my SS statements, and I made about $2400 that year as a college student living on his own with no parental help. (That's a long story... :blah: ) So, I spent nearly 23% of my gross income on those speakers.
Man, if I did that today, I could have some top JBLs and money left over.
I think the Studio L Series is a solid value, better than the L100 in its day, but they're two quite different designs and have very different sounds.
Now that you have the LC2, you'll always have the option to buy some other Studio L gear a couple of pieces at a time if you want, and eventually build a matched system all the way around. As it is, you've got an all JBL system, which everyone here likes to see. :yes: And whatever you do, keep those L100s. They're a big piece of JBL history, and, like mine are to me, a big part of your musical life.
Ti,
Thank you for the reply. The plan was to get a center speaker from a series that I could move into later.
I did get a chance to listen to L890's which I comment on previously. After hearing how much material comes from the center speaker I knew I need a good one.
The next thing I notice was how much bad audio comes from TV, actually I should not have been surprised.
When I have good software the LC2 & L100A's sound really good together.
As for replacing the L100'1 no current plans, I need to get the tweeter foams repaired.
Thanks again.
-- Brandy
I found the Studio L series to be a very strong contender when faced with other stiff competition. Both the Project Array and the Studio L series speakers have the sound of the K2 at fractions of the prices. I highly recommend both speakers to anyone intersted in them. I look forward to getting more involved on this site and I have lots to offer, I feel! Thanks!:bouncy:
Welcome Rob. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by robpatton
Those are some interesting pictures. Can you tell us a little more about the where and what of each? I mean, after all, that's about $54k worth of K2s there.
Thanks!
Thanks for the welcome!!
The where seems to be everywhere...according to my wife. It take a graceful dance to navigate my home without tripping over a cable, speaker or amplifier. My son has learned to swing from the cables like a small monkey.:D
I have many K2 9800 SEs and regulars for some time. The prices are up to 30K for a pair now for the SEs, BTW. I have just received the Array 14s and the Studio Ls last week. I am running them with Cello Performance II amplifiers(400WPC @ 4 Ohm), an Esoteric UX-3 CD/DVD, an Anthem AVM 30 for the Pre and Silver Litz interconnects and Litz speaker cables. The K2s are one of the best speakers I have found anywhere at any price range and would recommend them first if the budget allows. On a lower budget the Array 14s are the next in line and then the Array 800 with subwoofer assistance needed. On limited budgets, the Studio L series brings the pack home nicely.
Regards,
Rob
I listened to the L880s at Fry's Electronics today. Due to the almost complete lack of qualified and interested sales associates, I got to spend as much time as I wanted fiddling with them.
Let me start by stating that the room was barely acceptable, and the speakers were much too far apart. However, I went ahead and moved them to a few positions of my liking to get a better appreciation of them.
Since they're dual 6" woofers speakers, I also moved the EOL/NLA Northridge E80s over for a bit of comparison. The E80s were available at closeout for $79 each, while the L880s were at full retail of $699 each.
The E80s held up quite well, but were clearly not in the same league, especially on the high end. However, even the E80's dual 6" woofers were clearly not as capable as those in the L880.
I listened to some music from the 50s, 70s, 90s, and today to get a feel for the voicing and timbre. The L880 was very strong in the midrange, upper midrange, and highs. At any volume level, its tweeter was very good, and the midrange driver seemed to be effortless in its delivery. The sound was just there.
Running through an HK receiver, the sound was well balanced, clean, and articulate. However, on some of the older material (do wop in particular), the weak quality of the recordings tended to make the midrange voices a bit sharp and the highs were what I'd call shrill. I didn't notice this on any of the other music, though I certainly listened for it after that. I'd say this is a case of the speaker not hiding anything.
I was able to drive these speakers to very loud levels with no problems. I heard no break up, though occasionally I heard attacks and decays that could have been cleaner. Sometimes it seemed like there were very minor time/phase issues, which cleared up with proximity to the speakers.
The weak link was the lower bass, but with 6" woofers, this was no surprise. I avoided adding a sub to the mix, so I could see if my hearing adjusted to the sound. After awhile, I could hear that the bass was there, just not in abundance. The woofers were agile and accurate, but not low by any means.
I mentioned above that I also used the E80 as a touchstone for performance. The most curious thing was what happened in the high frequencies. The L880 has the mini-horn UHF tweeter, which I'm certain I couldn't hear if my life depended on it. However, the high frequencies I could hear sounded so much more accurate, that I wonder if the UHF driver was having an effect on the tweeter's response.
There was a distinctly better high frequency sound from the L880. Better tweeter? Probably. UHF influence? Don't know.
The L880 is a very nice speaker, but it's not full-range by my definition. Still it's only $700 in today's dollars. So to compare it to a full-range L7 or XPL200 wouldn't be fair. It suffers in comparison to them, but is a great speaker to occupy the middle ground in the consumer space. Add a sub, and you have a full-range system. :yes:
Many have commented that the speaker looks tacky or cheap. Fortunately, it looks much better in person.
The finish is the all-too-familiar vinyl black ash. The edges of the relatively slim enclosure are rounded in a pleasing way. The grilles stand out from the baffle by a small space, and they have a nice, firm feel to them. They remove easily.
The drivers do look a bit gaudy, but not overbearingly so. The photos we normally see tend to exaggerate the look.
Probably the only thing I didn't like were the "feet." If I bought a pair of these, I'd paint the feet black (or take them off).
Hi all,
I'd like to tell, intially, that it was a pleasure to discover this forum.
Matter of fact, it was something I was looking for - long ago - and I consider it as the real place to be, to the all of us, good'n ol' JBL fans!
Well, my current setting comprises the following speakers (7.1 system):
Mains = Northrigde ND 310
Center = S Center
Surrounds = S 38II
S Back = N 28II
Woofer = PB -12,
all being powered by a Denon 3805 AVR.
Quite recently, I've upgraded my system and now I'm using another woofer instead ( SVS PB 10 - ISD). I'm also considering the possibility of upgrading the mains & center channel and the new Studio L range seems to be a considerable upgrade of what I have now.
There's something I'd like to discuss about the new L series; i.e., I have read that they're basically all 4 Ohm load (altough specs states 8 Ohm loads), so that could somewhat overload the AVR, if pushed hardly, right?
In other hand, I know of several people using 4 Ohm speakers with the 3805 and have not had any problems, so far. Perhaps that sounds just like " to be in the safe side" and go for an external amp, right?
I have to say that I'm pretty satisfied with my current speakers, but I feel like the L Series are the end of the line on my wish list.
My room is not that big either, so I was thinking of only changing the mains & center, that's all.
By the way, what's the real need of a FULL RANGE FLOORSTANDERS nowadays, when the woofer takes care about the heavy burden??
I truly believe that this theory does make sense, mainly after the "sub woofer advent" on multi channel HT systems.
More & more you see people going with bookshelves for the mains, with pretty amazing results... (have to admit that I'm the ol' fashioned guy who still prefers big floorstanders though... isn't time for a change now??).
I'm re-configuring my HT room (as I've got a new HDTV set as well), so I'll be posting some pictures pretty soon for you guys, in order to evaluate my needs and chime back with your toughts.
In the meantime, I'd appreciate to have some feed-back on my comments.
Cheers / Avliner.
Notwithstanding the increasingly pervasive mischaracterization of just about any woofer as "subwoofer," few floorstanders incorporate a sub in the true sense of crossing and operating exclusively below 100 Hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by avliner
Can most bookshelves get down to 80-100 Hz ? Yup.
Do they integrate well with a separate sub? Only if designed as a system, I'd say, and that includes whatever is doing the bass management.
Current practice is to stack the bookshelf on top of a subwoofer, in effect, creating a "modular" floorstander. DUH!!
Or have the subs next to the mains. With my setup each main have their own 12" sub, sitting next to the mains, to the inside, with the center channel speaker in between the two subs. These subs are connected to the mains with speaker wire, which in effect make the mains full range. Of coarse, that is how the L212s were designed to work.Quote:
Current practice is to stack the bookshelf on top of a subwoofer, in effect, creating a "modular" floorstander. DUH!!
Plus I have two sub1500s that sit at the mid-points of the side walls connected to the "subout" on the H/K receiver. The mains are set to "large" in the receiver menu and the rest of the L212s are set to "small".
Of the various setups I've tried over the last two years, this is the best yet. And it works very well for both music and movies. When listening to music, I can use all four subs, or just the two 12" subs, when I'm listening to music in stereo. Of coarse I have all four on when listening to multi-channel music.
Here is a major endorsement of the JBL Studio L Series from a wildly popular Internet site. Many Web-savvy electronics purchasers go here before anywhere else.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html
Read and rejoice.
They probably sound fine, but....it looks like they spent all of five minutes on the design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
That is an uggglllleeee speaker system.
Have you had a chance to see them in person? Average people under the age of 40 probably think they look fine, even cool. Other customers at Frys thought so.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
I haven't seen them in person. I think the average person under 40...well....35 maybe ...hasn't had the good fortune of being able to experience good design in the stores.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
To me...those Studio L's would benefit from way less contrast in the colors. There's just too many drivers that are silver in a black box...the grilles should be left on. Can you imagine the above pictured K2's with a silver horn and woofer?...Ewwww.
Even a darker gray or titanium color would do the Studio L's wonder...make it look quite a bit richer...and not so "Wal-Mart"
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... but I agree with Mr. Edge on this one. Most of the affordable JBLs sold over the last several years look pretty darn cheesy to me.
I've discussed this with others here on the forum and the response was speakers are for sound... that may be true but they are also part of your life... I don't want to surround myself with things I'd rather hide in the closet.
Widget
It's unlikely JBL is deliberately making speakers that would be considered ugly by its target market. I'll bet Harman has a van full of analysis that says what will work in certain consumer segments. This awareness keeps the numbers up, and that's what pays the bills. Just remember, this is the same segment that buys Bose, Athena, Rockets, Ascends, Paradigms, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I can remember when I got my first JBLs, L100s, there was some debate over the appearance. Goshawful colors, three-dimesional grilles for heaven's sake, bizarre geometric patterning--"Do you play chess on that thing or what? Is that a Brill-o pad? Why I like old-fashioned grilles, not this gaudy, new fangled stuff."
But back on track, my post was about the sound and the great review. Can we at least be happy about that?
Happy as a hog in hogwash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
How many ad pages did Harman buy in that issue? Is it recurring revenue for the periodical?
I'd just like to see the entry and mid-level stuff with the JBL badge use JBL components that have the build quality that the JBL name is supposed to be known for....and not just be a "Cadillac Cimarron" that's priced way higher than it deserves to be simply because of the brand name..."is all"...that was a "Zilchism":p
I don't know... do they sell well? I was under the impression that it was mostly car audio that kept the JBL boat a float. I guess I just wish they offered elegant options too... in Europe they do. Perhaps they respect that market more than our own.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
As for the sound... my point was, for at least some of us that isn't an isolated quality. If they were the best speakers in the world, I'd be buying them and repackaging them. Fortunately there are other options. Of course as I said before, beauty even more than sound quality is subjective. If someone likes their looks that's great... I doubt I'd consider any "box" type of loudspeaker that doesn't at least have real wood veneer... not even those very expensive Wilsons... car paint?! Get real, I don't want a plastic coated box in my living room. Just a personal thing I guess.
Widget
It is sad but often true. I have no idea in this case... it is quite likely that the reveiwer really loved the speakers.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
Sorry but I'll drift OT for a second... has anyone noticed the retro gear that Stereophile has been testing and reviewing... I think it's way cool... and you know Advent, Bozak, Fisher, and the rest aren't buying any ads since the companies that created those products are as dead as Altec Lansing.
Now back to the previously scheduled thread.
Widget
that's what the grills are for...;)Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
It's Web only, so Harman didn't have any ad pages, per se.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/about.html
There are ads from Paradigm, SVS, and HSU speakers.
There is an ad for Lexicon. Hey, maybe Harman leveraged that to get a favorable review on a consumer speaker, instead of say, a high margin Lexicon processor.
"The bottom line is that I bought them for myself and would not hesitate to recommend them to anyone as an excellent investment in home theater and music listening enjoyment."- Adrian Wittenberg -Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
The reviewer bought the review system. I guess he really did like them!
Widget
Great thread Titanium Dome!!! Mostly good/great INFO especially from JBL8827 (2-posts).
FYI: Here's another review from Sound & Vision Magazine - check out the Objective Benchmarks by Tom Nousaine ...
JBL L820 and L810 left/right satellites and LC2 center speaker by Al Griffin - FEB. '06.
Notable quote from on-line article:If I ever upgrade my setup, ... I'd replace my six JBL S26s w/six JBL L830s and JBL S-Center w/JBL LC2!!! (LFE sub-woofer duties = SVS 25-31PCi of course!!! :D ) I just love the 360-degree near 100% timbre-matching surround sounds in my 20' x 30' w/10'high vaulted ceiling HT/family room!!!Quote:
BOTTOM LINE The "studio" tag on the Studio L speakers is well earned. This system's robust build quality surpasses that of many speakers in its price range and makes a strong connection to JBL's professional line. The same can also be said for its clean, uncolored sound and impressive dynamics. While the satellites’ extended highs didn't exactly make me stand up and say "Aha!," the system's performance with top-notch SACD recordings was nothing short of stunning. You can easily buy a better-looking system for several hundred dollars less, and it will make a more elegant design statement alongside your new flat-panel TV. But if performance is more important to you than the fussy stuff, you’ll be well served by JBL's Studio Ls.
Phil
I think the positive reviews are great....really. But when a reviewer says in no uncertain terms that they're ugly....why not capitalize on understating the appearance...iow...make them prettier and sell even more.
A consumer oriented manufacturer should well be aware that the appearance can make or break a products success....that silver just looks cheap. I'm sure those MBA marketers at Harman have it all figured out. Must have some analytical EOQ mu squared delta gamma bell curve standard deviation vector to predict sales volume.Quote:
You can easily buy a better-looking system for several hundred dollars less, and it will make a more elegant design statement alongside your new flat-panel TV. But if performance is more important to you than the fussy stuff, you’ll be well served by JBL's Studio Ls.
Keep a lookout for them at the Harman Outlet.;) :p
Cheap...like sex.. sells..... ( and cheap sex sells best of all:p )Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
Look at all those electronics from the 70's and 80's that had 1000's of flashing lights and knobs that did nothing to improve the sound.... they sold like hot cakes...
I agree with you Edge..I'm sure they did focus groups and what not to know what sells....
then again maybe we could drap flags over them and play them for "OLD GLORY" after drinking about 6 beers( things look better after drinking - at least until the next morning)...
seriously tho, I don't think they're THAT BAD
I think I know what your saying, Rick.Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
But I can hear the conversation in Best Buy or Fry's now:
"Baby!!! Listen to those JBL's....Gawd those sound TIGHT!"
"Um, yeah well... Honey...those ones over there are so much prettier...RIGHT!!!???
"Yeah, Baby...I guess so...:( "
There's an old saying about putting a bag over something or another. In this case, just put the grilles on and enjoy the sex--er, sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
Quick...let me know:D ...half the time I'm not sure what I mean;) But I think everyone got the joke about the flag...Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
I agree, you know it took me 6 months to get to like the look of the PS series, so I'm use to the Industrial Silver Look ( I.S.L.) now....besides how much can a can of spray paint cost if it really bothers you???Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
ooooooor just put the grills on and fugitaboutit..
after all it's the sound that matters....lastly..how many of JBL's other speakers look strange but sound wonderful???this is just another in a long line..excuse the pun but the 4430's are BUTT UGLY...
JBL would...should surely be proud of the loyalty displayed here for the marque...bravo:applaud:Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
I hope it flows to the showrooms.
Oh they are not...:rotfl:Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
Don't MAKE post the Biradial Babes here, too, now.... ;)
I don't think that either the 4430 or the Studio L are ugly. I haven't seen the Studio L in a store, but they look good enough on the computer screen.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
yes, you're correct of course...the 4430's are THE wife pleaser's......Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
On a scale of 1 to 10, the Wife Approval Factor MUST be a 12.....I've yet to see a woman that didn't fall in love at first sight of those big old 4430's:D
It's a case where SIZE truely does matter:applaud:
Now your catchin' on...I knew you'd get it soon....:DQuote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
Yeah, mine too, she said the look "powerful":D BTW, great thread 'dome, no bitchin:)Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959
Ok, time to get serious....
Saturday night as me and lady were on our way to a movie I checked a place where they have JBL's ( I left her outside while I ran in just to see)...well they had the 890 and the Venue series ( and still have the large nothridge series to).
Today I took a little time to go hear them. Now understand I was planning NOT to like these ( and not for the looks, I'm Ok with the looks)...but really, dual 8's for bass...can we get serious???? I remember 6 years when I played the S312 VS dual 8's or 10's at Best Buy and the dual small woofers just didn't cut it in realistic sound ( and I don't mean Radio Shack), the 12's were Sooooo much better IMHO...
Just to let you know my bias, I don't like the "NEW LOOK" of speakers ( thin, cubes etc:barf: ), I don't like small..I'm old school.. a person who likes large voice coils....I don't want no pansy-ass, left-over from a 60's Japanese transistor radio SMALL SPEAKER wanta-be in my house...and I don't care WHAT the woman says or likes, they ain't coming in my house..period:biting:
Since much has been said about the looks of these puppies and since several people want to judge a book by it's cover, I'll start with looks. The 890's they have are the cherry finish and had the grills on....They look great!!! in fact they make a rather refined, strong statement. dims are 42 1/4" H, 10 1/4" W and 15" D the speakers are deeper than they are wide, sides are curved and placement of the grill is perfectly centered....these are heavy looking , quality looking, refined looking speakers...nice, very nice... Looks nothing like the pictures on the web. You got to see them in person. When I took off the grills, yes all those transducers and wave guides looked a little strange at first, but seriously most times you would have the grills on AND if you didn't so as to get the last drop of resolution from the highs, I think it's something you would get use to....I got use to the PS 800's.....stop and think..what was your first reaction to the 4430?? the Everest..the K2..these are speakers that don't "Fit the Mold" and one thing I have enjoyed about JBL over years is that they are willing to use the "Form Follows Function" to get the best sound.
Botton-line..they are very good looking speakers in person and if you don't like looking at the ultra-high tweeter or silver and that really upsets you then put on the grills or go see a shrink...
Ok, lets get to the heart of matter...THE SOUND!!!! Botton-line..these speakers will knock your socks off...really they are that good....resolution, detail, mid-bass, mids, highs, air, all in balance and yes, ( I hate to amitted it) BASS...no F'ing sh*t . These are the sleepers of 2006. Now everything must be put into perspective, these are (retail) around 1600 ( they were on sale for 627 each I think). That's not cheap but it's not JM Labs Be stuff either...for the price the sound is unbelieveable.
This a major step up from the older Studio series..very major. In fact there's no comparison. In several threads I've praised the old Studio speakers as the best bang for the buck speakers I had heard....well, the studio L leaves those old studio speakers in dust and for not much more money.
I'm going back and I'll do some more listening, but just to finish saying...I really liked these and was thinking of where can I put these...I want these BIG TIME..
( but I have no room and I'm waiting to see what's coming out this fall)
If you are thinking of getting new speakers, and you don't want to spend a fortune to get a really RICH and wonderful sound that would cost $7000 from other speakers, then do yourself a favor and listen to these. I think you'll be surprised at how great $1600 can sound..
GT and his crew have done a wonderful job:applaud: ....can't wait to see what they have for us this fall
I had to stop last night with the review of the 890. I'll go into it more after I hear them with more material.
these speakers were a total shock to me....they look good, sound good and have enough bass..
The most surprising thing was the bass, it was much better than I expected...( understand that I was listening to music, not movies with super low noises - and yes, all subs were off)...no, it's not a 12, 14 or 15" transducer, they are dual 8's and I want a Studio L with something bigger if it were my main speaker ( see my bias, maybe a S312 and S412 version - yes BOTH). These were designed to be used with subs I think
I see two uses for me with the 890's.....Center speakers for my HT ( I don't do single speaker) or actively crossed over to PS1400's or to some home grown Le-14 or 15's
Bottom-line:
1. they don't look cheap or cheesy in person, maybe on paper or on the web. These are very nice looking speakers in person - but then some people I've seen look cheesy on the web too
2. The sound is way better than a $1600 pair of speakers should sound, these are really approaching what I consider "Audiophile" sounding speakers
3. the bass is way better than one would believe(Frequency Response (±3dB) 28Hz – 40kHz ). I took in my "ball-busting Bass" CD's to break them and they took it and gave it back MUCH more than I thought possible. I'm not a "bass" person ( I believe what most people hear as "bass" is the box itself) BUT when REAL Bass is called for I want it there and the 890's did it...period. Next i'll take an organ CD and see if we can break them ( I've "broken" a few in stores;) )
Of course all of this is subjective...and you'll have to make up your own mind...just know that if you are judging these by the pictures on the web then you're only judging a book by a picture of it's cover. ( you're twice removed)
Thanks for taking the time to both look and listen in person before passing judgment. It makes a difference, eh?
While all of us have opinions on these things, it's always useful to have an informed opinion with some credible experience to back it up. I know it can be hard to accept that something new and different is "as good as/better than/an improvement on/different in a good way to" older ideals, but it does happen.
I learned this lesson when I got my first pair of SVA1800s, an MTM design with two 8" drivers surrounding a Bi-Radial horn. It was mind blowing and paradigm busting at the same time. How could two 8" drivers be so powerful, so articulate, and so effective?
Old dogs like us can learn new tricks. ;)
In fact you'd like a pair of TL260 ! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JBLnsince1959