Replacing the 052Ti in a 4412a, and more

I finally got around to replacing the pushed in 052Ti in my 4412a. I am on an assignment away from home and it took me a while to round up a soldering iron and solder. Turns out I didn't need them, it has push on terminal lugs. LOL

So a few questions;

1. Does anyone have experience cutting off the terminal lugs and soldering the wires?

2. Does anyone have experience with replacing (upgrading) the internal wiring in this or a similar JBL speaker?

3. Does anyone have experience rebuilding the crossover? Is there any improvement to be had there?

4. Does anyone have experience with converting the crossover to charge coupled?

Replacing the tweeter made a nice improvement. The high end is clearer, more precise and better dispersed.

I have also been fooling around with straws in the port. First I tried filling the port with straws that were cut to the same length as the port, 5.25". It cleaned up the base a bit, reducing the flabbiness somewhat. It had the unfortunate side effect of reducing the amplitude of the lower freqs.

Next I tried using the straws in there original length, 7.5", allowing them to protrude 2.25" so that they were fulley inserted into the port. First I did the left one and listened to it for a few days. I liked it. I also found out that my hearing is better with my right ear. :)

After a few days I gave the right speaker the same treatment.

It extended the low end a bit, maintaining the improvement of the shorter straws.

I am trying to resist the urge to tri-amp to restore the base. Remember, I am the guy that would tri-amp his espresso maker if he could figure out where to attach the wires. LOL

I looked at the schematic. There are a couple of 78 ohm resistors in parallel with the woofer. Changing them would send more power to the woofer. Would it also shift freq where the low freq crossover starts?

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Originally Posted by SteveJewels

It cleaned up the base a bit, reducing the flabbiness somewhat.

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Hey Phil .... who else was it that had the same descriptor of the 4412's bass ??
(that you denied)

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Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97

Hey Phil .... who else was it that had the same descriptor of the 4412's bass ??
(that you denied)

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Uh oh. Have I gored the sacred cow? :eek:

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Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97

Hey Phil .... who else was it that had the same descriptor of the 4412's bass ??
(that you denied)

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Of course if was you, Wolf! (Seems to be my week for people with nothing better to do on this site pointing out the obvious to me while misrepresenting my thoughts and comments!) ;)

But, I did not deny it, I still believe if you find them flabby you have them in a poor placement position. The 12-inch three-ways are more susceptible to boundary reinforcement than the 10-inchers because, well, they have more bass to give. First and foremost you must get them off the floor. Even 4-inches off the floor helps. After all, the 4412/A's are supposed to be near-field monitors. The 4411 and L112 are designed for books-shelf-type placement. Doesn't mean they can't perform in other positions but to condemn them as flabby means you just haven't given them a proper chance.

And, yes, I'm the guy who insists the placement issues with the L7 are overblown and they will perform beautifully in a small room without being three-feet from a back wall. That's not a contradiction.

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

(Seems to be my week for people with nothing better to do on this site pointing out the obvious to me while misrepresenting my thoughts and comments!) ;)

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oh, you did read that deleted post from the cats-eye guy ?? (can't remember his name). Are there even more ?

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

But, I did not deny it, I still believe if you find them flabby you have them in a poor placement position.

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I count 3 of us now that have independently used the same descriptor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

First and foremost you must get them off the floor.

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EVERYTHING that I have (save the 250's & Ohm F2's - both made as floor standers) is off the floor. When I sold the 4412's, they were on stands for the demo. We then removed them and swapped in the Horizons, same amp, position ..everything = Big difference in bass. The buyer noticed too, but didn't like the looks of the L166's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

The 4411 and L112 are designed for books-shelf-type placement. Doesn't mean they can't perform in other positions but to condemn them as flabby means you just haven't given them a proper chance.

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have never had either model, and therefore NEVER commented on either.

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

And, yes, I'm the guy who insists the placement issues with the L7 are overblown and they will perform beautifully in a small room without being three-feet from a back wall. That's not a contradiction.

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Finally, I agree. My L7's did NOT seem placement dependent.

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I count 3 of us now that have independently used the same descriptor.

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I had a pair on 2/1/2 Ft. stands out a bit into the room and the were great! Nothing flabby with that placement.

Rob:)

Wasn't expecting to put myself in the middle of a 'discussion' but here I am. :blink:

I am hopeful that someone will take up one, or more :), of my several technical questions or discussion points.

In the meantime, my 4412a's are on stands. Samson SP50P's and are 37.5" off the floor and slightly more than 25" from the closest wall, 34" from the other wall and 49" from the corner.

I should probably say that my preference in speakers runs sort of in between a bass reflex speaker sound and that of an Infinite Baffle speaker but that of the two, my preference is usually the bass reflex, IB's seem to sound a bit restrained.

I have the 4412's, not the 4412A's. I didn't feel that their bass output sounded flabby, just a bit overpowering in the overall balance.

I have done quite a bit of front-of-house mixing on styles of music that needs to be reproduced cleanly, including Jazz, Bluegrass, Old-Time, and Swing.

I did not encounter a situation where a case of low end flab or blop wasn't correctable by simply raising the system's lower -3 dB point up to where the bass signal was was not asking too much of the bass transducers.

While this is easily accomplished when using a mixing console with sophisticated EQ controls, when in a home setting not so much. Actually, neither is it very difficult .

Since the adjustment need not be adjustable in a home setting versus using a system in different venues with varying acoustics, the solution can be implemented simply and need only be done once.

To clean up the bottom of my home system with the 4412's and their interaction with the acoustic environment, I raised the lower -3 dB point by placing an additional capacitor in series with the existing input cap on my Yamaha M-4 power amplifier, empirically experimenting with values until the bass was cleaner sounding and still provided sufficient low end extension. I did not use any test equipment this time, but tuning by ear was sufficient to achieve a quite noticeable improvement. So I must have had some flab, blop and a bit of tub after all.

The bottom line, no pun intended ;) , is that it worked and would most likely work for you as well. Regards, -D_E-

To your original post; I am not a fan of soldering speaker terminals, especially on tweeters. I recognize that it can be done without overheating the VC wiring or glue, I just don’t think it’s worth the risk. Also, I tweak with stuff often enough that I know I will have to de-solder the tweeter eventually. I am getting ready to build some line array speakers and am shopping for lots of push on spades:). I have very limited experience with 4412’s - I have a pair, but haven’t listened to them in years. I remember the bass being strong, and resonant (not good). I remember thinking about stiffening up the cabinet with some bracing and trying Zilch plugs in the ports, but frankly never got around to it - a pair of the small Array’s found their way to my place and they did so many things right that I forgot about the 4412’s.

If you do decide to solder and damage something, I may have a spare 052 in storage - no guarantees.

Rather than soldering the tweeters, which I don’t think will get you anything in sound quality, I would play with some more basic, diffraction controlling stuff - try felt rings around the tweeters. You may have to rebalance the bass (drop it some more) but may gain enough HF detail to make it worth the trouble.

Thanks HCSGuy!

Soldering would make a difference but perhaps not a discernible difference. I do intend to make more changes so the convenience of push on lugs would be appreciated. I can solder a longer lead onto the tweeter and do the soldering/unsoldering far enough away from the tweeter that heat won't reach it. A clamp on heat sink should protect the VC wiring and glue.

Attachment 83176

I searched for Zilch's plugs and did find anything specific, no details to tell me what they are or how to implement them. I did find a reference to A.S.S. plugs. LOL Accoustic Suspension Suppository plugs. I would be very appreciative if you could point me to some specific information on them. And the felt rings for the tweeters.

As I mentioned I have put straws in the ports. I like what it did for the bass but it did reduce the volume of the bass a bit so a treatment that improves the HF and lowers it a bit might put things back in balance.

If you are serious I may take you up on your spare 052Ti. I am working on sourcing equal to or better than original JBL quality replacement diaphragms and need comparison 052Ti's.

Thanks again!

Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doctor_Electron

I have the 4412's, not the 4412A's. I didn't feel that their bass output sounded flabby, just a bit overpowering in the overall balance.

I have done quite a bit of front-of-house mixing on styles of music that needs to be reproduced cleanly, including Jazz, Bluegrass, Old-Time, and Swing.

I did not encounter a situation where a case of low end flab or blop wasn't correctable by simply raising the system's lower -3 dB point up to where the bass signal was was not asking too much of the bass transducers.

While this is easily accomplished when using a mixing console with sophisticated EQ controls, when in a home setting not so much. Actually, neither is it very difficult .

Since the adjustment need not be adjustable in a home setting versus using a system in different venues with varying acoustics, the solution can be implemented simply and need only be done once.

To clean up the bottom of my home system with the 4412's and their interaction with the acoustic environment, I raised the lower -3 dB point by placing an additional capacitor in series with the existing input cap on my Yamaha M-4 power amplifier, empirically experimenting with values until the bass was cleaner sounding and still provided sufficient low end extension. I did not use any test equipment this time, but tuning by ear was sufficient to achieve a quite noticeable improvement. So I must have had some flab, blop and a bit of tub after all.

The bottom line, no pun intended ;) , is that it worked and would most likely work for you as well. Regards, -D_E-

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Adding a cap as you have done would work as a high pass filter which would certainly do the trick.

I took another path. I added straws to the ports. First iteration was with straws cut to the length of the port. It did as I was hoping, it firmed up the bass but it also had the undesirable effect of diminishing the bass volume. The second iteration was with straws that were the length as purchased, 7 3/4". This had pretty much the same desirable improvement in firming up the bass, it had a lesser effect on the volume of the bass. I like it.

I am just beginning to study the physics of port technology so I can't explain what happened from a technical perspective, I can only describe what I heard.

I believe you've essentially added a form of resisitive port loading... I would expect some change in tuning and a lowered system Q.

A not too dissimilar example is described here:
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Aperiodic/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteveJewels

Next I tried using the straws in there original length, 7.5", allowing them to protrude 2.25" so that they were fully inserted into the port. First I did the left one and listened to it for a few days. I liked it. I also found out that my hearing is better with my right ear. :)

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I wish to revise and extend my remarks with apologies to @BMWCCA. :)

While I stand by the assessment of flabbiness I expressed above I do have new information.

Recently I saw a Bryston 4B for sale at a price too hard to pass up. I negotiated an even better price and received it a few days later using it to replace the amp I had previously had in my office.

The flabbiness I experienced with the 4412a's is no longer present, in fact the bass is very precise. The bass was not like this with two other amps I had tried previously, also I had tried the 4412a's in three different locations but experienced the same flabbiness.

It is not all roses and sunshine though. The Bryston and titanium tweeters, as much as I like them otherwise, are not a good match. Something not as detailed like a silk tweeter would probably be a better match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteveJewels

Recently I saw a Bryston 4B for sale at a price too hard to pass up. I negotiated an even better price and received it a few days later using it to replace the amp I had previously had in my office.

The flabbiness I experienced with the 4412a's is no longer present, in fact the bass is very precise. The bass was not like this with two other amps I had tried previously, also I had tried the 4412a's in three different locations but experienced the same flabbiness.

It is not all roses and sunshine though. The Bryston and titanium tweeters, as much as I like them otherwise, are not a good match. Something not as detailed like a silk tweeter would probably be a better match.

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Of course this begs the question: "What were you using for amplification during your flabby period?"

The 4412A is a very good studio monitor and holds back very little, even including distortion and breakup from your source, your stylus, a bad recording, etc. I do not find them irritating on clean source material but older LPs or early CDs have me searching for better recordings. :dont-know:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteveJewels

It is not all roses and sunshine though. The Bryston and titanium tweeters, as much as I like them otherwise, are not a good match. Something not as detailed like a silk tweeter would probably be a better match.

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Too detailed, or the breakup modes are too evident in your own audible range? Since many of us are pretty well rolled off above 15KHz, those Ti "nasties" are simply no longer an issue. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

Of course this begs the question: "What were you using for amplification during your flabby period?"

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I'm glad that question was not posed to me... I would take it personally and unfortunately the flabby period continues! I gotta get back on my bike!


Widget

Colleagues;

is the 052 subject to the same foam damping problems as the 035?
May be Steve you are getting the 035 deterioratd foam undamped zinggies.

Ed

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Originally Posted by Ed Kreamer

Colleagues;

is the 052 subject to the same foam damping problems as the 035?
May be Steve you are getting the 035 deterioratd foam undamped zinggies.

Ed

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Interesting point. You may be onto something.

Has anyone opened one of these up?



Widget

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

Of course this begs the question: "What were you using for amplification during your flabby period?"

The 4412A is a very good studio monitor and holds back very little, even including distortion and breakup from your source, your stylus, a bad recording, etc. I do not find them irritating on clean source material but older LPs or early CDs have me searching for better recordings. :dont-know:

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The first configuration was all Adcom, GFP-565 and GFA-555, the second configuration was a Brooklyn Bridge and an Adcom GFA-555, the third configuration was a Brooklyn DAC+ and an Adcom GFA-555, all had 'flabby' bass.

The present configuration is a Brooklyn DAC+ and a Bryston 4B. The bass is precise.

The Bryston and titanium tweeters seem not to be an optimum combination. The treble is a bit sharp at times, depending on the material.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SteveJewels

The first configuration was all Adcom, GFP-565 and GFA-555, the second configuration was a Brooklyn Bridge and an Adcom GFA-555, the third configuration was a Brooklyn DAC+ and an Adcom GFA-555, all had 'flabby' bass.

The present configuration is a Brooklyn DAC+ and a Bryston 4B. The bass is precise.

The Bryston and titanium tweeters seem not to be an optimum combination. The treble is a bit sharp at times, depending on the material.

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OK , you finally got good bass from them.

I had 4412's ( not "A") and didn't care for the bass that I was getting using a big BGW 750D.
Glad you solved the problem , but if you have to experiment with amps to get it right , can't (to me) consider that a successful speaker design.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SEAWOLF97

OK , you finally got good bass from them.

I had 4412's ( not "A") and didn't care for the bass that I was getting using a big BGW 750D.
Glad you solved the problem , but if you have to experiment with amps to get it right , can't (to me) consider that a successful speaker design.

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Wolf, do you hate the 128H-1 in general, or only in these small boxes?

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

Wolf, do you hate the 128H-1 in general, or only in these small boxes?

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NO.
I've had them in other boxes/xovers and they were fine.