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Except, of course, that they are not original JBL.
Considering that 2240 baskets can be had for under $50 and that a pre-assembled 2245h recone kit is $80.00, I think it becomes a no brainer for bass heads.
http://reconekits.com/jbl2245h8ohmreconekit.aspx
Attachment 50302
please install one and measure the T/S !
Do you have any previous experience with this aftermarket recone kit in particular?Quote:
Originally Posted by pos
I don't but please do some tests for the benefit of us all!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal
Did you buy one yet?
I don't either, but here is couple of things you should check:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal
the voice coil must be 24mm long (vs 19mm for the 2240), edgewound copper ribbon, and the cone must have aquaplass on its back (mms 185g vs 164g for the 2240).
The fact that their 2245 kit is more expensive than their 2240 one is encouraging!
Interestingly, I don't think that all JBL-sourced 2245 kits even had the white aquaplas on the back. I have noticed some discripencies on many pictures. But I might be wrong. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pos
aquaplas can be either white or black (eg 128H vs 128H-1), but is present on the back of all proper 2245s
I emailed them today with questions about 2225 kits.
Somewhere in their website they sell the same VC for 2225 and E140... not a good sign.
Before starting to beyatch I'm gonna wait for what they have to say, they maybe have the best intentions and are willing to learn to provide the best product possible, who knows.
Basically I don't doubt the craftmenship and dedication if those are US made kits made by serious people, I doubt the result/assembly and the exactitude of the specs.
It's hard to get exact specs on the voice coil length, wire thickness, amount of turns, position of the coil in the gap, position of the spider on the coil former, etc. So it's possible that they're not exactly as spec.
Like I said, let's see before saying the product is sh**. Altec lansing cones are now made by a third party (GPA) and people seems to be happy with them so the same thing could happen with JBL stuff.
When a supplier such as JBL doesn't sell components for a while, and sells replacement parts at highway robbery price, I think the message is clear: bring your business elsewhere. Therefore, as Eaulive mentionned, I think it is the enthusiasts' best interest to support local aftermarket suppliers into improving their product. "Supporting" could include working with them into making better recone kits. If it allows a couple American workers to get a job, I am all for it... :D
Perhaps I can even invite the dudes from Mackenzie to this discussion. Afterall, aftermarket suppliers are not neccessarely the ennemy.
The JBL OEM 2240 recone kit has aquaplas on about 1/3 of the rear of the cone up from the voice coil apex. 2245 has black aquaplas on the entire rear for the cone. Older 2245s had white aquaplas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal
The problem with aftermarket cone suppliers is honesty. You will not get JBL performance from aftermarket kits. If you're willing to understand and accept that the aftermarket kits are considerably inferior, that's your choice. Most JBL fans want JBL performance and longevity.
VGC aftermarket kits are not worth the money. The voice coils are completely wrong and will burn up.
Caveat Emptor in the aftermarket. I've seen too many lies on incorrect repairs. If they're honest, no problem...you been disclosed.
Notice any obvious differences from the aftermarket pictured a few posts up? Aquaplas? Voice coil?
The man that own GPA(Great Plains Audio) was a former Altec engineer. He bought the production equipment from the old Altec company. His equipment is about as close to real Altec as you will ever get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
On top of the price difference between JBL and after-market recone kits, I thought another problem was that us "civilians" aren't pertmitted to purchase authentic JBL kits. They have to be sold along with the installation work by authorized repair shops.
Is that correct?
Obviously, voice coil length and lack of aquaplas, there maybe more.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
This is exacty what I'm referring to. If JBL specs could be available or properly measured so that the third parties could accurately reproduce them, I think it would be a bonus for everybody.
Maybe not for you however, since your business is professional reconing.
Just for fun, could you provide the VC length for 2225 and E140? Do you know about offsets and the details involved in making a cone/VC/spider assembly a genuine JBL cone?
At the base it's only paper, copper and glue.
JBL needs not to publish specs. Any manufacturer could reproduce an exact copy by simply spending $240 on an original recone kit, and spend some time measuring it and trying to reproduce the exact same specs. Spider and suspension flex, cone rigidity and weight, voice-coil, etc. Make a first copy. Test T/S. Modify if necessary. Damn, if humanity can send men on the moon and make zoophilic porn available to every single house in the world, how come copying such a simple part is so difficult? :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
JBL drivers are not rocket science. They are industrialized mass-produced parts.
I for one hope that a top shelf supplier arises to fill our needs.
I do not expect JBL to help in any way other than making the decision to leave the legacey repair market open by failing to support it.
If you have ever done any thorough speaker testing it becomes apparent that there are probably a hundred things that can go wrong in trying to knock off a cone kit exactly. Think about the paper science itself.
If someone does it right, the success will not have come easily and don't be suprized that the cost may be even higher than the JBL kits.
I agree that R&D was a very serious endeavour at JBL, but today this is done and one only has to replicate, like Lee said, it's mass produced and not that hard to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audiohack
Proof is they're making it already, maybe they're not as spec, but the work of building them is the same.
Then why are they not flooding the market with correct kits now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
Do you not see the contradiction in that statement?Quote:
Proof is they're making it already, maybe they're not as spec, but the work of building them is the same.
What I meant is that if they're not to spec, it's maybe not because of craftsmenship but just because they don't know the correct specs. It's a wild guess here, maybe they don't care about the exact spec also.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audiohack
Once you set up a machine to edgewind copper ribbon, making it to spec or not does not involve more or less work, you just have to set the correct number of turns.
When you glue the former to the cone and spider, making it as JBL intended is only a matter of knowing where, at what depth, not how.
As easy it is to make it wrong, it is to make it right, I guess.
Making a part properly is not more difficult than making it wrong. It only has to do with starting on the right foot and setting up the job properly.
if I were a JBL collector, I'd maybe spend extra for the original part just to show my friends the white greasy pen in the back of the cone. But as a user who might blow a few cones in the driver's lifetime, paying $80 instread of $240 makes a difference, especially if the sound was to be identical. :D
Some of you guys make this sound as if it's so easy to knock-off JBL moving assemblies with precision. Especially these people that can't get factory parts. Proof is in the pictures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal
It doesn't take many $80 blown-up recones to amount to buying the right stuff that will give the expected performance for years to come...even decades to come.
I had a regular customer recently bring in 2 fried 2241G that were reconed by the regional aftermarket hack that claims he uses the "same parts that JBL uses". Not true in the least.
Moral of the story...customer wasted nearly twice as much money by trying to save money. I showed him the differences between the parts. He was not amused at his folly.
Well, if the supplier of aftermarket makes false claims like "it's all JBL" when it's not, it's another story and I agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
Well the issue as I see it is that by selling aftermarket kits for JBL'S they are implying that they are equivalent. I have never seen a disclaimer on an aftermarket kit that states it may not offer the same performance. If they tell you up front that they are not the same and may sound different fine. If they offer them as a cheaper alternative and leave the performance part out that doesn't seem quite right to me.Quote:
Well, if the supplier of aftermarket makes false claims like "it's all JBL" when it's not, it's another story and I agree with you.
Rob:)
Several kits are already NLA, and the number is growing. JBL does not seem to care that much about the vintage drivers, and any sota driver bought today and used at home will be vintage when it will need a recone... In fact they don't even sell recone kits anymore for these: as 4313b told us they send you a new replacement driver instead. But how long will they be willing to keep these replacement drivers around?? The 476Be is already NLA, how many replacement drivers do they have? The LE14H-3 also is....
Face it: as the lansing heritage group we have to take care of this issue before it is too late. We could contact Hawley, Mogami, Brush Wellman, ... and see what can be done.
Experimented JBL reconers like Edgewound would be great resources to maybe build something similar to GPA, for JBL drivers? Among all the former JBL employees that we have here, and all those that recently lost their jobs, something ought to be done!
The 476Be and LE14H-3 are both still in current product being made and sold today so I don't think these drivers are NLA. That said, I do get your point and agree with you. It is a real shame that JBL is changing their business model to a more short sighted profit driven model. This may get reversed at some point, but for now, we do need to do our research before we buy a blown driver that can not be properly repaired.Quote:
Originally Posted by pos
Widget
As I asked before, assuming that there are no aftermarket kits equivalent in quality and specs to JBL's kits, am I allowed to purchase a JBL kit without having to pay someone "authorized" to install it? If so, where?
This isn't a new question, but maybe if Mr. Widget or one of the other fine moderators sees this post and sees fit, it can be added as a sticky.Quote:
Originally Posted by svollmer
It's explicitly a violation of JBL's Factory Authorized Service Agency Agreement to sell Genuine JBL recone kits over-the-counter to non-authorized servicers. This policy does not apply for sales of replacement diaphragms for compression drivers or tweeters that are bolt-in parts. A warranty disclaimer is enclosed with every replacement part, and the warranty is the same for recone kits and replacement diaphragms.
If you purchase a Genuine JBL recone kit for self-installation you won't be covered by any type of factory warranty against defects or workmanship. The factory warranty for recones is 90 days. If you purchase a recone kit over-the-counter from a JBL Authorized Service Agency, the Service Agency is in violation of the Service Agency Agreement. The Service Agency Agreement is in place to protect all parties involved...especially, the customer.
The majority of the cost of a Genuine JBL recone is in the parts. The labor charge is nominal, and actually pretty cheap insurance that the job is supposed to be done correctly. Yes, there is a profit margin in the parts for Authorized Service Agencies, and that is part of the equation for hopefully staying in business...along with having customers referred by satisfied customers. Car dealers operate on the same principle.
With the above stated...It's the customer's choice to choose how to spend his money, and the Service Agency can set his own pricing. If the Service Agency offers a less expensive alternative in aftermarket parts when the transducer is beyond the factory warranty, that's between the customer and the Service Agency. If the Service Agency claims that his aftermarket parts meet or exceed OEM specifications he should be able to document it. Otherwise, you should expect to get what you paid for...diminished performance.
Also...If an In-Warranty JBL product is damaged by end-user mis-use or abuse, the JBL Authorized Service Agency is required to repair the unit with correct factory parts specified to maintain the remainder of the factory warranty. If the customer doesn't want to pay for Genuine JBL Parts and requests a less expensive alternative, he must be advised that the factory warranty will be voided and accept the responsibility for possible failure due to parts and workmanship. The Service Agency can offer his own warranty as an alternative, if available. All covered In-Warranty repairs due to factory defects must be completed with factory specified parts to maintain the remainder of the factory warranty coverage.
Lastly...If Genuine JBL replacement parts are no longer available from the factory and aftermarket parts are the only alternative for repair, your repair is going to be only as good as the servicer can provide...and some are better than others as we've all experienced at some point.
Hope this helps answer some questions about restoring and maintaining your beloved JBL drivers.
Only $42 labor to recone an 18" JBL!!! Now I feel like an idiot for grumbling about not being able to buy a real JBL kit to install myself to save some money. :o:
$42 is CHEAP to have a professional do the work and provide the warranty. Thanks very much for the clarification and very useful information.
One question; can you open a franchise in the DC Metro area? :)
Attachment 50501Attachment 50500Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
JBL 2225H
Total weight of assembled cone. 86g.
Add 2g. for dust cap. Glue weight for dust cap dependent on artist!
Coil former height. 1.125"
Coil winding height .680"
Is this a original or remake?
Regards Gerhard
Hey, thanks a bunch!Quote:
Originally Posted by John
Now we need a guinea pig to try the AM cone :D
I for one have 4 original cones on the way :)
Anybody could do he same for a C8RE140?
I have a 2235 remake!
Regards Gerhard
Quote:
Originally Posted by ds23man
Yes in my post I did say JBL 2225H
I have never had aftermarket.
If I was posting info for aftermarket kit I would indicate so.:)
No C8RE140, but I can do C8R2245 and C8R2235 if there is interest:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
There is always interest, and the picture you took is also useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by John
We should make this thread a reference now that I think about it.
Just measure mine (four of them).Quote:
Originally Posted by John
From 89 to 94 g without cap
former 24mm (0.945")
coil 16mm (0.630")
Weird.
Are yours the newer kits made in Mexico or the older made in USA?
JBL specs the coil winding height as 0.63"
MADE IN THE USA. :thmbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
I have to admit that the kits made in Mexico _even if they appear as spec_ don't have the clean craftsmenship the US made kits have.Quote:
Originally Posted by John
It's been less than a year now since they moved production accross the border, let's give them a chance.
In a pig's eye... they killed the mood last summer.Quote:
It's been less than a year now since they moved production accross the border, let's give them a chance.
I think the main differences would be in the cone material stiffness. The cone for 2245H is very stiff and 'heavy" (about 200gr). The cone itself is relatively water resistant (does not absorb a lot from drop of water), but some "compatible" one is sometime thirsty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee in Montreal
Well hell... I'll get to see how the "new" 2245H kits look in a week or two...Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
I hope you'll measure it, coil, former, weight and all before dropping it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
And post pictures too! ;)
I'm in the market for a pair of those soon and would love to hear your option.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
But regardless, I guess I won't have much of a choice unless I find some one who has stock piled old kits.:dont-know:
I guess JBL still has 2245 kits available, did you check?Quote:
Originally Posted by maxwedge
Not a good idea to buy NOS of those, sometimes the foam is rotten in the box. :banghead:
I haven't checked yet because I've been a bit of spending $ whore lately.:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
But I need to get them done before I can't them anymore. Mine are fine but are aftermarket and it appears that the impedance curve is different between the pair.
These are mine>>
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...-2245H-drivers
Well it's been more than a month now and have no reply from them. :dont-know:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
Yet then again, you-all tend to be a bit more fussy......
I was in need of a 2245H cone and the JBL price was a bit much at over $300!
Wanting a preassembled unit like JBL sends, I asked MacKenzie if he would make one up as they were not listed on his site.
Slam-dunk, the well packed kit was at my door in less than a week, looks & sounds just like a JBL to me!
All for just under $100 to boot.....
Would I do it again? You bet!:bouncy:
Cheers,
VSN
http://mwaspeakerparts.com/index.html
But you have to be a business to buy or even look at their catalog.
This 2241 on ebay is said to be MWA...item 110638940031
Found an older thread with some info
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...or-on-re-cones
As far as I can see no edgewound aluminum ribbon there!Quote:
Originally Posted by maxwedge
Well, yeah!Quote:
Originally Posted by VSN
:rotfl:
What's the point of buying a nice expensive core with great engineering behind it only to put some second rate software in it.
Well that part is absurd! They act as if the effing things were still made in Northridge by people making a decent wage for a decent day's work... assholes...Quote:
Originally Posted by VSN
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
They are paying $15.00 a day labor and the price went up .... Don't figure
The $15 a day labor does not include overhead..(CEO)
Then justify it
You all have seen it before; a current model kit is cheap compared to a kit no longer in production. So JBL waits to make a “special” run of these outdated kits and charges extra for their effort.
A 035TiA diaphragm kit costs 3X of a current model 052Ti? It sure ain't about material, they simply are looking to cover the expense of the special set up and this price increase is what opens the door to competition.
Now this is where the thread started, can a USA vendor accurately fill the need?
A big point often over looked on this forum and what has been in debate in this thread is the basic fact that a collector uses a different set of standards over a hobbyist or consumer; there is a BIG difference and neither side is right!
I think EVERYONE would rather use OEM parts, that is not the topic.:banghead:
Those just entering the hobby or are looking to buy refurbished gear rarely embody the same standards when it comes to justifying the added cost of OEM parts, even though they might fully understand the concern.
So in choosing an OEM kit over a quality aftermarket kit, one really has to define what are the priorities and the criteria used for satisfaction? When it comes to parting with hard earned discretionary income, not everyone will agree.
As I refurbish, modify and upgrade vintage stereo systems, my customers rarely are collectors so price is always an issue when it comes to making a sale. If I can get a JBL kit on the "black market" for a good price, I do!
IMHO, I do not think we as a group should get indignant with one another if a particular point of view is not equally embraced, it only sours the original topic……..
Cheers,
VSN
Sadly, typical internet behavior. Some use forums as their social life. Understandable in this age of isolation, but sad. Factor in the lack of immediate contextual clues when conversation is not in person, or even by voice, and misunderstanding is rampant.Quote:
Originally Posted by VSN
The whole thing could be avoided by going back to please and thank you, but what passed for rudeness years ago is deemed acceptable behavior today. So that is not going to happen. The two things a reasonable and polite person (read: Old School) needs on the web are a thick skin and the ability to ignore rude jerks.
Clark
Clark, what are you going on about? :blink:
Why are you guys even messing around with JBL components? They're expensive. How about simply using more affordable components in the first place. :rolleyes:
I made the exact same point a while back. Somebody was grousing about the cost of a 2245H recone kit and I pointed out that Parts Express had 40 some odd 18" drivers listed. Instead of bastardizing a JBL core, just buy a BRAND NEW Brand X driver and go to town! Why anybody would want a semi-JBL retread instead of a BRAND NEW Brand X is beyond me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
The part that kills me is stuff like This Thread. Post after post, just can't understand.
Then it gets suddenly and dramatically resolved in
Post #29
:blink:
:yes::applaud::yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffW
Sorry, I took VSN's lament of internet "sour"(ness) to be evidence of one remaining soul who thinks forums can be a place of agreeable decorum. Considering this impossible at this point, I gave what little advice I could. I wasn't calling anyone in particular a rude jerk. Not that they are hard to find at Head-Fi.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
I plan to use factory parts, or what passes for them these days, to get two 2245H cores reconed. I must be old school all around.
I'm anxious to see how the latest 2245H kits look... I have a bunch that I ordered prior to June 2010 for 4345 refreshes and I'll compare them with these new kits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducatista47
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
Hopefully they work as they should!
Regards, Ron
Please report when you have them. I am still looking for 2240/e155 empty baskets just to test the Mackenzie 2245 recone kits. $80 vs $300... Hmmm...Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
I received them yesterday but haven't had the time to look at them. They do say "Made in Mexico" on the label.Quote:
Originally Posted by spkrman57
I also have eight from Northridge that I bought at Greg's urging before the June 2010 deadline. I'm still pretty disgusted with the whole turn of events. I'm not convinced that I'll ever get over it. It's one of those things you walk away from in thorough disgust shaking your head at the idiocy.
In all fairness, the JBL kits have changed over the years; Hawley cones, Mogami cones, a few fails from other resources tossed in there for good measure, etc.
I did a physical inspection of two "Made in Mexico" kits with the "Made in U.S.A." kits and visually they are quite similar. One of the "Made in Mexico" kits has a couple discolorations on the front of the cone but I've seen similar on "Made in U.S.A." kits over the years so no change there.
I'll measure their mass when I have a minute or two. I'm on the old seven day work week for the next few months.
Thanks, keep us posted!Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
im after a replacement cone for a 2245h and was hoping to hear peoples results here regarding the aftermarket cones. origional cone here in australia cost $450 and install another $75 so that is my reason for looking at the aftermarket as an option. unless anyone has new old stock oem cone for sale? thanks Greg
Considering the $80 cost of the Mackenzie part, which is much, much lower than what you'd pay for an original cone, perhaps it is worth giving it a try.
Lee
I had to add my 2 cents into this thread. I would love to see someone replicate the recone kits exactly as the original JBL kits. I do not mind paying JBL for the original kits if they are available.
Some say why do you want to put in a aftermarket kit? Then it no longer sounds like the original.
Well what goes in a 136A? A 2235 kit. Is it exactly the same? From what I understand it is not. What about the 122a? There is not a 122a kit any longer its a 129 if I am not mistaken. So is the 136 or the 122 still a 122 or a 136. Its not its a franken speaker.
So if some one could replicate a 122 or 136 kit exactly as the original kit I would gladly give them my hard earned money. I do not care if it says JBL or not as long as the speaker still has the orginal specs I will be very very HAPPY :applaud:
Face the fact this is what it is going to come to. JBL is going to make less and less replacement parts. It must be nice to hoard kits before they stop making them. Unfortunately many of us can not do this.
Just My Thoughts
The recone kits you mention and the kits that go into a frame as spec'd by the factory are the upgraded versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by warpig
A D120F "kit" is no longer made because the kit to repair a D120F is the E120 recone kit which brings the model up to improved, latest specs.
They (C8R2245) are AFAIK.Quote:
Originally Posted by warpig
So if you don't mind paying for JBL kits, get your drivers reconed.
And unless they are an authorized JBL repair shop, they won't be hoarding any kits, either.Quote:
It must be nice to hoard kits before they stop making them. Unfortunately many of us can not do this.
Well, upgraded... sure newer construction techniques, better glues and greater power handling, but in these cases, I am with warpig. Yes, the 2235H has lower distortion than the 136A or 136H, but it also has a different sound. I am not a guitarist, but many who are do prefer the sound of the older more fragile D120Fs.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
I am not saying that I would rather listen to a 136A over a 2235H. However in a L300 I would want a perfect 136A and in a 4430 I would want a 2235H. If I was starting from the ground up, I'd rather have a 1500AL. ;)
Widget
Difference is Bill Hanuschak (GPA Owner) bought all the tooling from the OKC plant when they closed so they are essentially Altec.The cones however maybe slightly different, but I had 2 pair of 416B's re-coned by Bill and they measured at factory spec when I got them back, in fact they are T/S matched.And sound great.I needed them matched for a dual woofer box configuration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaulive
Unless someone bought the tooling from the JBL plant in Northridge,I don't see the same thing happening with JBL ! UNFORTUNATELY !! :(
The 1500AL is factory service only and since there isn't a factory anymore... :rotfl:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
In the past we only had to keep recone kits in reserve, now we have to keep whole drivers in reserve. :p And they're really, really expensive!
Ah, come on. MacKenzie will build you a cone kit! :applaud:Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
You know, you might get your other driver one day. There's another reorg and firings coming up and there's a 50-50 chance that the right people will get fired instead of the wrong people. If the right people get fired, you'll experience stereo, if the wrong people get fired it's mono for you dude.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffW
I've all but conceded defeat. After all this time they occasionally show to have some in the system, but they never send any to consumer. I'll never play a single, I might make a lamp out of it or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
You just need to go scrounge around at the south of the border plant Jeff, judging by the looks of the second one they sent you they must use them for tire chocks down there.
Now there's an idea! But I'd still like to have 2 tire chocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audiohack
Hi Widget,Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
I am a guitarist and and have reconed many D120Fs with the E120 kit. The end result is a K120. In every instance so far, the feedback has been unanimous that it's an improvement in every way. Power handling, durability, low frequency response, smoother and less shrill upper midrange. Many players like the sound of the ceramic E120 due to the more accurate and fatter mids and tactile response from the bigger motor despite the weight gain.
YMMV...but better is better when it lets the player do more with his/her amp and guitar. It's a different market and use, indeed, from HiFi.
I bought 2 JBL 2241G's (18") from a recone dealer for $39 eaQuote:
Originally Posted by svollmer
cause he had no license...:bouncy:
Does no one here read Voice Coil magazine and/or have seen the Loudspeaker Inindustry source book?
The "OEM" stuff is mostly Chinese-made if you believe the ads and who they produce for. Precision Econowind in Florida makes the coils for the DD speakers, and you as an individual can by samples straight from them.
I can't speak for the rebuild kits that were made back in the 80s, but chances are very great if the speaker was made in the last 15 years, the original parts were more than likely sourced from China.
You seem awfully sure of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by winslow
Just because an ad with a picture of a voice coil that fits a JBL driver doesn't mean that is the OEM producer.
I use Precision Econowind voice coils in speakers that I build for another company and they are very good. I have also seen Precision Econowind edgewound voice coils that are meant for the D/K/E series speakers. They are not the same as OEM construction but you have to know what to look for to know that, and what the various failure modes are.
So to answer your question, the answer is yes. There are also US/North American producers of soft parts that supply JBL/Harman.
To say that all the parts are sourced from China, I believe, is inaccurate.
The oldest issue I have for the Loudspeaker Inidustry Sourcebook is 2009...and in it is an ad for Po Yun Enterprises. This ad lists who the OEM for- B&C, Faital, Matsushita, Pioneer, Philips, and Harman.
But I thought you you said Precision Econowind? They are now the same company after PY bought PE.
http://www.poyun.com/
There are very few US sources for soft parts these days, but more sources for that than say magnets and baskets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
But I never said ALL soft parts were sourced from China...just that a lot are sourced from China regardless of where the speaker is assembled. There are still a few US companies making said parts.
And it is sad that this is the case.
And...you can never trust what an ad from a Chinese company says is 100% accurate. Intellectual property laws are pretty much non-existent. you can quiz any number of companies on that issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by winslow
That said, the voice we coils get from Precision Econowind for guitar speakers come from Florida.
Po Yun bought Precision Econowind...they are the same company.
Look at the link I posted, it has a few small companies they OEM for. I am sure if it weren't true, then some of them could do something about it.
And another link:
http://www.loudspeakeruniversity.com/clients.html
So...in other words, you're stating as fact that all JBL voice coils are made in China by Po Yun? Regardless if it's for Pro Audio/Cinema, Home Audio/ Home Theater, Custom Home Install, Car Audio, Computer speakers or ear buds? Everything?Quote:
Originally Posted by winslow
And you're also stating that Precision Econowind doesn't make voice coils in it's Ft. Meyers, Florida facility?
http://www.precisioneconowind.com/
If you dig a little into the internet, you'll discover on the Po Yun website "Customers" link that Harman/Becker Automotive is a customer. JBL Professional is not listed. Precision Econowind is listed as a customer...in line with Precision Econowind's statement that they are the sole US contact/agent for Po Yun.
http://www.poyun.com/en/links.jsp
No offense, but you are being a bit dense aren't you? I didn't say any of that.
But on the Po Yun website they list GGEC as a customer and they do make the some/all of the woofers for the Synthesis system and some components of a couple Pro Audio pieces.
I said- Po Yun bought Precision Econowind. They make voice coils for some HI products. They are advertising in a picture ad a dual coil voice coil...Differential Drive?
I said- back in the day chances were good that nearly everything could have been made on this continent. Now, chances are good that nearly everything is sourced from China. That it is getting harder to source components in the USA.
I don't see what is so hard to grasp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
When did Po Yun buy Precision Econowind? Since when did GGEC make drivers for Synthesis? Where's your proof? I can see that Harman's laptop speakers for Toshiba are made by GGEC. The following quote is from Prescion Econowind's website. Nowhere is it disclosed that Po Yun owns them.Quote:
Originally Posted by winslow
The thing that's hard to grasp is your supposed expertise in this subject. You're now up to post number 11. Apparently you just joined this week to school us on JBL lore. Why is that?Quote:
Precision Econowind, Inc. is a privately owned American company that manufactures custom coils for the loudspeaker, medical, aerospace, and many other industries. Loyal Tingley, Jr. and his son Terry started the business from a one-car garage in Bokeelia, Florida in 1972. Today Precision Econowind, Inc. is owned and operated by Terry Tingley and Dean Wiant. Precision has become one of the world's premier custom coil manufacturer that supplies many of the largest companies around the world in many different industires.
At Precision our goal is to consistently provide the highest possible quality, at a competitive price, with on-time delivery. Our specialty has been voice coils for the loudspeaker industry, and we are very proud that our coils are used in speakers made by companies worldwide. Since then times have changed as we have branched out in to other industries from our core business of voice coils for loudspeakers to high quality custom voice coils for medical, OEM, Aerospace and just about any other industry that uses custom voice coils in their products. Specializing in voice coils has given us experience in winding precision layered coils using bondable wire. This skill is the foundation for many of our other custom coils, especially freestanding coils that require the most efficient possible use of space, which can best be accomplished using precision layered winding with no bobbin or core.
We occupy 32,000 square feet of manufacturing space in Southwest Florida. Our winding machines and tooling are custom designed by us and built by our own machine shop specialists. For coils requiring high temperature resistance we coat our own wire and form material with high temperature adhesives.
Harman's manufacturing base is now in Mexico with R&D and prototyping still in Northridge.. BTW...What is your relationship with Harman and from where do you get your info?
Harman/JBL sources all of their drivers from different vendors (one of them used to be JBL Professional Manufacturing in Northridge until some jackass saw fit to disassemble it). I know many of the smaller Synthesis drivers are made in China. Some of the engineering is also done in China. A visiting Chinese engineer actually designed all the mf and lf inverted dome transducers in the JBL Performance Series with our favorite JBL engineer overseeing the endeavor.
My current JBL Pro stuff says Made In Mexico. Recone kits and replacement diaphragms.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
The large edgewound voice coils are still made with same construction techniques used in the 1980's.
Yep, alot of the TOLT drivers are now made in Mexico as are the kits (JBL Pro Manufacturing).
For example, Synthesis 6 and Synthesis 8 drivers for the SAM series are built by GGEC in China as were the eight and ten inch drivers in the Array Series. The LE14H-3 in the largest Array comes from JBL Pro Manufacturing.
There are other suppliers including Audax. Nexus is in there somewhere, I don't know if they made the 1500AL for awhile or not. I've lost track.
As for recone kits, I recently compared two C8R2245H kits from Mexico to several I already had on hand from years ago and they were identical. On the other hand, all the C8R2121 kits I recently received were junk.
GGEC:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...highlight=GGEC
The Po Yun and Precision Econowind was in a 2009 issue of Voice Coil magazine...I will have to dig through them and see which issue it is, and if I still have the print issue.
And with Loudspeaker Components acquiring Nu-Way, there are about 5 companies in the US making soft parts. Which Nu-Way had established a factory in Mexico before the buy out. Mogami also has plants in the US and Mexico...but they've been acquired by Pioneer Electronics.
So what, you have a problem with someone having a low post count?
I joined this week so I could have access to the classifieds because I am wanting a trio of 2118s for my car. And I wanted to see if there was any more information about the 226J and 228H here that I couldn't find elsewhere.
I have no relation the HI. I do know the Global Director of Mobile Audio for JBL...he's a member of a forum that I am a moderator on. I used to compete against a lot of Team JBL cars when I competed IASCA.
Tell you what, over on the forum that I am a moderator on (DIY Mobile Audio), we have a Klippel Distortion Analyzer with all of the goodies except for the laser. If you wanted a really really really detailed analysis of a speaker, we can do it for you there. So we can measure a stock 2118H and a reconed 2118H with an aftermarket kit and see EXACTLY how far these kits are apart from each other. We can do all of the tests that Zaph et. al do- multi tone distortion tests, waterfall plots, distortion tests, and we do BL(x), Bl, Cms, Kms symmetry. Le(x), which parts of the speaker are the most prominent distortion sources, T/S from a WT2. If anyone wants to really see how good or bad the aftermarket kits are compared to OEM, we can do it there...only thing is his jig as of now is limited to speakers about 8". We will be doing subwoofers as soon as he makes a larger jig.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
another thing thats hard to grasp is your enthusiasm
for some kind of fight.
that sort of immaturity doesn't help us much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
precision econowind, having their own machinery,
and personnel to build and run the same,
doesn't preclude the jbl voice coils from being made in china.
as far as something looking the same as,
look here -
http://www.lmaudio.net/cp_l.aspx?ddiqu=佛山
I'm pretty sure the voice coils for the loudspeakers made in Mexico are wound in Mexico.
I'm pretty sure the voice coils for the loudspeakers made in China are wound in China.
While I suppose it is moderately interesting where a Global Corporation has it's various bits and pieces manufactured, what does any of this have to do with Mackenzie? ;)
Widget
We want to tour their Scottish assembly plant so we can take side excursions to some Scotch distilleries?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
My enthusiasm isn't for a fight. It's for accurate information. I'm just as disgusted as everyone at the dismantling of of Harman/JBL....but lets keep the facts straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by tomt
BTW, Winslow I'm looking at the 2009 Loudspeaker Industry Sourcebook ad on page 63 where the Precision Econowind ad is located. They are an American agent of Po Yun. Precision Econowind is a privately owned American company, according to their own website. They will also make voice coils to order for anyone that will pay for them, and they do have tooling that will fit JBL drivers. I've seen them.
But....Everything JBL is not made in China. The top-line and legacy parts are still made in North America. The parts I've received in the last few months have been up to Northridge standards...which has been a long road to get straightened out.
I will still stand by my accounts that I've not yet seen an aftermarket recone that stands up to the OEM parts when the OEM parts are up to standard. I had a conversation with Dave Wheeler the other day about the small differences in voice coil construction that determines how well it's going to stand up under high power. Small details are important when it comes to a drivers longevity....not just the T/S parameters, or how well it tests with a Woofer Tester, Klippel, etc. BTW....T/S parameters won't predict how a loudspeaker sounds above 100 Hz. I've talked servicers that claim they tested the 2245 with a woofer tester and say the aftermarket is just as good. Well...It can't be just as good because the details aren't present that makes the 2245 sound like it does. And why pay for an aftermarket recone if you're not going to get the OEM sound or durability.
Anyway...I'll still carry the torch till the torch burns out. Carry on. Much of the reason JBL left the the playing field here in California can be blamed on the people in Sacramento and elsewhere that hates that we make the best stuff on Earth. They might get a clue when all the tax revenue from business sources disappears completely...and manufacturing is best way to get there.
Hey Edge... no politics. On the left it is corporate greed, on the right it is governmental regulations... we've beaten it to death... no one is going to change their opinions based on an out of round voice coil debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgewound
Widget
That is the beauty of the Klippel machine, it will tell you exactly where the differences are why the effect the sound. We have a few people on DIYMA who have 2118s and one who lives close the the fellow who has the machine...I am pushing for them to test the 2118, which as far as I can tell are original. I mean I love those speakers, and loved the 2204s that I had. The 2204s went to the dump because they were in need of reconing and to get them reconed with factory parts would cost more than what I could find original used 2204s for. I mean I couldn't give them away because the motors were so heavy to ship.
Don't think that I am pro-China made equipment though. I have a friend who owned a small car speaker company called Image Dynamics, and heard many a horror story about Chinese made parts.
I know the aftermarket isn't as good as OEM...but I wonder exactly how bad it is.