Stereo 2.1 Preamps

The ATI amplifier thread started to veer toward preamps, so here's a thread to continue that discussion.

I'm currently using old pre/pros for stereo duty in three systems.

Citation 5.0 + Denon DVD2900 + JBL DX-1 + Hafler SR2300 (2) +JBL XPL200A (2)

JBL Synthesis® SDP-5 + Oppo 981H + JBL Synthesis® S650 + JBL S/2600 (2) + JBL Synthesis® S3S (2)

Outlaw 990 + Oppo BDP-83SE + ATI 2003 (2) + JBL K2 S9900 (2) + JBL SYnthesis® S2S (2)

All three of these somewhat dated pre/pros offer stereo analog and digital input, offer analog bypass and internal DAC conversion, offer analog and digital bass management, and have a ton of features I'll never use in a stereo listening environment.

At the present time, the Citation 5.0 is not using bass management with the XPLs, but I'm definitely using it on the other two systems. I believe it enhances both systems to a discernible degree.

What are the currently available stereo preamps that also allow bass management, and whaich ones have balanced outputs for the mains and the subs? One thing that makes the Outlaw 990 a great fit with the K2s and ATI amps is its balanced outputs including two subwoofer balanced outs.

I see Emotiva had a stereo preamp that sort of fit the bill, but it's sold out and a new unit is under development.

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Originally Posted by Titanium Dome

I see Emotiva had a stereo preamp that sort of fit the bill, but it's sold out and a new unit is under development.

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From what I've heard through the grapevine... no personal experience, their stuff makes the newer Harman Kardon stuff look pretty good.

I don't have any experience with 2 channel gear with bass management... does it even exist? It must be a pretty small niche. The true analog multi-channel 5.1 and 7.1 preamps are even a pretty small niche. I think if you must have bass management then this would be your best bet... personally I prefer the simpler approach... a basic two channel preamp.


Widget

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'bass management' just the ability to direct
an LFE channel (e.g., movie effects, and I suppose on some multi-channel music discs)
to the appropriate speakers ... such as a subwoofer?

vs. having an adequately configurable sub crossover...

Seems like for most 2.1 systems, the latter would be sufficient (though perhaps not
as convenient, being a separate box with more cabling and levels to set... and probably
no remote :)).

This opens up the option of using quite a few 2ch preamps that do have multiple
outputs and often balanced connectors.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Widget

From what I've heard through the grapevine... no personal experience, their stuff makes the newer Harman Kardon stuff look pretty good.

I don't have any experience with 2 channel gear with bass management... does it even exist? It must be a pretty small niche. The true analog multi-channel 5.1 and 7.1 preamps are even a pretty small niche. I think if you must have bass management then this would be your best bet... personally I prefer the simpler approach... a basic two channel preamp.


Widget

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I've been looking through preamps the last few weeks, and the Emotiva USP-1 hit my radar. For me, the only real design drawbacks are lack of balanced outputs and tone controls. I searched through the audio and AV forums I'm aware of, and there were a lot of positives and a few "meh"s. I don't recall anyone having QC issues with this particular piece.

Along with the design limits (really tradeoffs) my only other reservation is that I try to limit the $$ I send to Ch1na, though Emotiva at least designs the equipment here.

I have to say that the matching XDA-1 DAC is pretty intriguing as well.

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Originally Posted by grumpy

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 'bass management' just the ability to direct
an LFE channel (e.g., movie effects, and I suppose on some multi-channel music discs)
to the appropriate speakers ... such as a subwoofer?

vs. having an adequately configurable sub crossover...

Seems like for most 2.1 systems, the latter would be sufficient (though perhaps not
as convenient, being a separate box with more cabling and levels to set... and probably
no remote :)).

This opens up the option of using quite a few 2ch preamps that do have multiple
outputs and often balanced connectors.

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Come to think of it, there were McIntosh preamps with a center channel output that would sorta kinda do this... (C22, C28 and possibly others) they have a separate trim pot so you would have some control on the mono channel's gain. Obviously both of these predate remotes... and neither one sound as good in my opinion as several other contenders in the straight up 2-channel world.


Widget

:) ...and they look like set pieces from Tron Legacy (IMHO).

(not judging, just noting...)

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Originally Posted by grumpy

:) ...and they look like set pieces from Tron Legacy (IMHO).

(not judging, just noting...)

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:D

Personally I have an issue with their name... but then I never liked Acura Integra either. :blink:


Widget

Why not get a used Lexicon MC8B/12B? They go quite cheap if you don't need the HD models.

Just thought I'd mention I have no need for 2.1 in my two-channel system. And that XDA-1 DAC is really interesting at only $345:

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In addition to being a state of the art 24Bit/192kHz DAC, the XDA-1 can operate as a digital preamplifier and source selector in a digitally based reference level audio system. Inputs for up to six digital sources including AES/EBU, USB, Coax, and Toslink are available. The XDA-1 incorporates a VFD display for volume, input select, and system status messages. In addition, it is supplied with a milled aluminum remote control for convenient operation.

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But it goes back to, "What? No HDMI?"

Attachment 51364

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

Just thought I'd mention I have no need for 2.1 in my two-channel system.

Attachment 51364

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And yet the thread is titled Stereo 2.1 preamps... :hmm:

:p

TI,

the old adage .... if it sounds to good to be true , then it is :D Knowing the mark -up on hifi, a little about the cost of components, and that Emotiva is not a charity , its hard to fathom how they can build a
product of any kind of quality and stay in business.

2.1 ....... why haven't any other established manufacturers built one ?

At best, if it retails in the US for $699 , 20% import duty ,parts, labour , MIN 50% profit . You end up with a Pre, that maybe , cost $ 100 to build . You would just about get a K2 worthy transformer for that money !

Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

Just thought I'd mention I have no need for 2.1 in my two-channel system. And that XDA-1 DAC is really interesting at only $345:

But it goes back to, "What? No HDMI?"

Attachment 51364

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Well, after my experience with Emotiva pre/Processors (shipped back for a full refund) -
I'd say you are better off WITHOUT them or their take on HDMI ...

But since HDMI is usually used with DRM and such in multichannel surround gear - why would you have it in pure audio systems?

it seems that HDMI is becoming the norm for outputting the highest quality
signals in digital form (e.g., SACD stream) in consumer products (maybe I'm imagining it).

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it seems that HDMI is becoming the norm for outputting the highest quality

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I beleive that it is directly tied to the data rates on the combination of the new uncompressed Audio formats and of course the Blueray video. When you are doing 2 channel only I doubt it's needed at all. I would think a Coax/Toslink would have enough through put.

Rob:)

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Originally Posted by Titanium Dome

And yet the thread is titled Stereo 2.1 preamps... :hmm:

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I'm only saying I'm not planning on running a sub. Otherwise I'd like all those modern features on today's pre-amps. I wasn't the one that brought up the two-channel Emotiva XDA-1, I was just commenting. Sort of thought it fit the thread though.

HDMI would be nice since it appears to be heading the way of USB in terms of its ubiquity as a standard for connectivity. I remember my first iMac back in 1998 and everyone wondered why it had that odd USB "plug" (and no floppy drive) . . .

Okay, forgetting the HDMI . . . why would the XDA-1 not make a good front-end in a stereo system? Just because it's inexpensive? Is there some edict I missed that said a good DAC has to begin at $1000 and can't offer normal pre-amp controls? Seems like an interesting combo but maybe I should take that to a thread for digital stereo pre-amps? :banghead:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BMWCCA

I'm only saying I'm not planning on running a sub. Otherwise I'd like all those modern features on today's pre-amps. I wasn't the one that brought up the two-channel Emotiva XDA-1, I was just commenting. Sort of thought it fit the thread though.

HDMI would be nice since it appears to be heading the way of USB in terms of its ubiquity as a standard for connectivity. I remember my first iMac back in 1998 and everyone wondered why it had that odd USB "plug" (and no floppy drive) . . .

Okay, forgetting the HDMI . . . why would the XDA-1 not make a good front-end in a stereo system? Just because it's inexpensive? Is there some edict I missed that said a good DAC has to begin at $1000 and can't offer normal pre-amp controls? Seems like an interesting combo but maybe I should take that to a thread for digital stereo pre-amps? :banghead:

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You forgot to quote this: " :p "

I'm thinking that HDMI, messed up as it is by the HDMI Founders group's typical cadre of corporate morons in suits, still has a lot of advantages for stereo and stereo bass-managed systems going forward, since the capable and brilliant engineers behind it are making it possible for source material to advance.

Sure, it doesn't help the older stuff, which is already limited by the technology that produced it. Coax/toslink/whatever is sufficient for that, but why place the ceiling in the past?

I'm sitting here looking at my three-month old 27" iMac and wondering about the Thunderbolt interface that I don't have... well, something new will come to preamps soon, I bet, and if I could get an HDMI or Thunderbolt interface on it with a high quality DAC that allowed bass management, why I'd be in line to test it out. Even if it sold under $1000 and had a plain face. ;)

it has HDMI ....... but not for $ 1000 :D complete with the 32bit sabre .... as is the Mtech 2 young dac :D


http://www.wyred4sound.com/webapps/s...find_groupid=0

The iMac uses a nice wolfson DAC .... but as the wise and knowing have posted many times - its the output - stage that holds the key .

There is a wealth of info on digital-analog interfaces out there on the web . This forum predominately informs those interested in vintage 2 channel products of a specific make .

HDMI ...... do they use HDMI in studios or USB ? Personally , I'm interested in studio technology and its applications within 2 channel home audio ,not over-priced Video cables ,ie HDMI .... just look at the price difference between USB and HDMI . Also, WHAT, is wrong with the tried and proven digital cables already available on the market Toslink, Coax and XLR ?





Rich

Anybody have any experience with the Parasound New Classic Model 2100 Preamplifier? I'm kind of leaning toward trying to find a used one or a demo.

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Originally Posted by Audiobeer

Anybody have any experience with the Parasound New Classic Model 2100 Preamplifier? I'm kind of leaning toward trying to find a used one or a demo.

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Ive used it for quite some time. In my ears it sound a bit thin and harsh (like the whole NC series). It's not bad for its price and functionality, but the performance is very average imo.

Thanks Timc, what amp are you using?

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Originally Posted by Audiobeer

Thanks Timc, what amp are you using?

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None at the moment. We had it in the shop were i worked before. I tried it with several sources, amplifiers and speakers. It sounded at its best when paired with speakers that are a little laidback. Affordable Tannoy and B&W models worked very well. On Klipsch reference it was pure torture when played loud.

On the earlier ones there were trouble with bad pots. We had 2 come in for trouble with the balance control. This is supposed to have been fixed on the second production run.

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Originally Posted by Robh3606

I beleive that it is directly tied to the data rates on the combination of the new uncompressed Audio formats and of course the Blueray video. When you are doing 2 channel only I doubt it's needed at all. I would think a Coax/Toslink would have enough through put.

Rob:)

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Indeed Toslink has bags of bandwidth and only starts to run out os steam with the new audio formats. Best thing with optical though, no ground loops and no EMI.

Allan.

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Originally Posted by Allanvh5150

Best thing with optical though, no ground loops and no EMI.

Allan.

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Indeed!

We frequently use optical in ground loop prone systems. In the more resolving systems it never sounds as good as S/PDIF, but if you have a ground loop losing the hum is worth the performance hit, and many systems are not that resolving anyway.


Widget

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Audiobeer

Anybody have any experience with the Parasound New Classic Model 2100 Preamplifier? I'm kind of leaning toward trying to find a used one or a demo.

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there is a dealer here that will sell his demo (never powered up) Parasound P3 preamp for a very good price ...PM me if interested , wont publicly post the price.

So I recently picked up four AIX multichannel Bluray discs that also have hi-res stereo mixes on them. I'd like an HDMI-capable, bass-managed pre. Has one come out yet?

Searching...

It seems to be getting closer...

http://signalpathint.com/index.php/G...fications.html

but no hdmi. The input to the ESS DAC inside should be capable of supporting an I2S DSD stream though...
Just need the right "A-dapter" kit (which probably would break some Digital Millenium Copyright rules...).

Has anyone heard this unit in person? or a demo of the integrated amp version that's coming out?

...and Dome, that Grand Pre has blue LEDs. :bouncy:

I have not heard it, but I have been very impressed with the earlier offerings from Peach Tree Audio.


Widget

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...and Dome, that Grand Pre has blue LEDs

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:eek: ... what did I do!? sigh... at least you can turn the lights off easily.

I read this thread with a bit of interest on the title of a 2.1 pre. Currently using a Marantz SC7S2 as such(as it is supports my needs). I can only use the JBL Array 1400/1500 sub with RCA connections. I am not complaining.

I am very curious why some (main writers) on this forum SEEM to dislike blue lights. Damn. It is almost insulting to the people who have a goddamn clock radio w/blue lights. Who gives a Fuc*? I certainly don't. (although this post may seem like I do:o::o:)

However, McIntosh (for one) has some great gear. My Marantz reference system has 'em, who gives a *uck?


Another thing:

I think the mentality of dissing the construction, price tag and looks of some GEAR is way off. Why have superior (K2) speakers without upgrading the electronics. I did. Even with the Arrays. My findings? Amazing upgrade in the performance of the speakers. After all, garbage in, garbage out.

Yes...even with the mighty K2"s.

:D

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Originally Posted by tom1040

I am very curious why some (main writers) on this forum SEEM to dislike blue lights. Damn. It is almost insulting to the people who have a goddamn clock radio w/blue lights. Who gives a Fuc*? I certainly don't. (although this post may seem like I do:o::o:)

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It has nothing to do with blue lights, but what's attached to them that draws the ire here.

Another thing:

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I think the mentality of dissing the construction, price tag and looks of some GEAR is way off. Why have superior (K2) speakers without upgrading the electronics. I did. Even with the Arrays. My findings? Amazing upgrade in the performance of the speakers. After all, garbage in, garbage out.

Yes...even with the mighty K2"s.

:D

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He did, just not with gear that sports blue lights.

My blue lights actually work in this thread. Just no HDMI. I have had it for a couple of weeks. Sounds good to me.

Rob:)

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Originally Posted by grumpy

It seems to be getting closer...

http://signalpathint.com/index.php/G...fications.html

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It looked like a nice little unit . . . until I looked-up the price:

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	Grand Pre
Price: $2,999.00

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Originally Posted by Robh3606

My blue lights actually work in this thread. Just no HDMI. I have had it for a couple of weeks. Sounds good to me.

Rob:)

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Looks good, and LOVE the old PS-Crowns. Looks like my system would if I go for the Emotiva XDA-1. Still thinking about it. Anyone here tried one?

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Looks good, and LOVE the old PS-Crowns. Looks like my system would if I go for the Emotiva XDA-1.

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Thanks I really like the Crowns as well;). With the X-Mas sale on the DAC I almost got one. I may, I have a Sony ES CD player and a Denon Universal in that system so I could do CD, DVD and SACD through it but I don't really know if the DAC is better than what's in the Denon. I am not streaming so I am struggling with how useful it would really be as opposed to just having a new toy :D

Rob:)