Hi guys, does anyone have or know where I can source the plans to build a pair of 4345 monitors?
thanks Mike
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Hi guys, does anyone have or know where I can source the plans to build a pair of 4345 monitors?
thanks Mike
Hey, Mike...
I intend on starting some resurrounds on my 2245H's and 2122H's this week-end. So, I'll have the cabinets in some very vulnerable positions for some pics (something with a boa, perhaps...? :D ) and measurements.
Let me know if you're still interested and what you are needing, and maybe I can start collecting for you.
Hi Bo, yes I'm still very much interested. I would appreciate any pics measurements and also any copys of owners manuals you may have. I want to build a pair of these things, but want them tobe as close to the real thing I can get!.
thanks so much for answering my post.
Mick.
Hey, Mike...
Pleasure, man.
I've no engineering plans - I'm (unfortunately... ;) ) only a recent caretaker of this wonderful design. And, like Don, being an ethusiast of vintage, would love to perpetuate the knowledge, in any way I can.
I will photo a-plenty, and measure best I can. I can forewarn - I've already been "inside" these badboys, and they are really built. "Brick crapper" comes to mind.
And, to a pm received, this iteration has the 4-1/8" by 8-1/4" ports (x 3).
I have "surprise" company arriving this weekend, and so that may slow the project. But, I'll post what I can, when I have it.
ps: lurking behind the twins, is a Sony 50-in LCD flatpanel, struggling to be scale!
I need to add the 4301B's I'm reconing, and my refurbished 4312's L/R, but even with all that, it won't approach Tom's stellar collection. :)
wow! how cool are these things, mate they are mint. So tell me how do these babies sound? . I have got at the moment all these drivers apart from the 2245's( I have 2241's) in individual enclosures and they sound pretty fat!. Having seen yours I am keen to get my new bins started. Tell me, what blue would be the baffle be on these things?
talk more soon.
Mick.........
They are simply quite astonishing. A seemingly near-perfect selection and alignment of transducers paired with well-thought-out networks and active crossovers. Smartly, the UHF are at-or-near sitting height - no stands or height adjustment needed. JBL engineers must've had Carte Blanch when designing these.
:cheers:
Every track is a new experience - whole lots of texture not before present (or at least audible... ;) ). The responsiveness of the 2245H's is every-day surprising. No sluggishness or muddy character at all - quite to the contrary. And, they don't need high gain - they only need be on to get everyone's attention.
I am a REAL lucky boy to have a chance to caretake these - and that all before me babied them so. And even more - to have a wifey who is lettin' me do it :D. She has become quite smitten with them! She groaned (not the good one... :eek: ) when I unboxed them, but they absolutley "sell" themselves.
They have become not only the visual "center" piece of the redone family room, but are the conversation piece all the while. As a matter of fact, I drafted-up plans for a wall cabinet with cubbies for these and a doored/roll-in area for the rack, and proper LCD TV space, but cabinetry of the 4345's and overall look is too good for that - so, we're stalled with the temp set-up you see, for now.
The 4345 project looks interesting. Having most of the components, I was wondering if 2441 diaphragms be installed in 2440's and deliver the 2441 performance? Thanks for any advice with regards to this question.
Hey, Steveh...
Welcome! :wave:
And, I don't know about 2441, but here's a Link to some Forum discussion on the 2421B (the compression driver in this pair of 4345's), and possible diaphram swaps: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ighlight=2421b
Be patient, and I'll slowly characterize these things. Frankly, its summer and there's many distractions and others calling for my participation and attendance! :smthsail:
Not much to report, but here's a close-up of the 2122H dog house baffle cut. The dog house interior dimensions are 14.5" wide by 10" high by 6" deep- completely sealed, and loosly lined with the batting shown.
Hey Bo, thanks for the info mate, keep it coming but please don't let it get in the way of your R&R:cool:
Mike.
Here's some pics of the front baffle, with measuring tape for scale.
Note the baffle front (inside the molding) measures 39 inches height, by 28 inches wide (sorry - we are NOT going metric :no: )
I tried no flash (not distinct enough) and ended-up thinking flash is better, but to mitigate flashback (oh NO!! :shock: ) I had to be slightly off axis. Let me know if these are not useful - here goes...
In response to some inquiries, I thought this series might be the best way to allow those interested to triangulate the center of the baffle cuts. If needed, you can "right click" on these and save them and enlarge in "Paint" or other graphics software for better viewing.
NOTE: All pics are with scale zero-end at baffle-left or baffle bottom.
across the 2405 and 2421B
across the 2122H (nice clean resurround job... ;) )
across the 2245H
across the ports
along the ports
"along" the 2245H
"along" the 2122H
"along" the 2124B
"along" the 2405
along the Lpad
(and in response to pm's from members on this...) my thinking was readers could use both the distance from baffle-left and distance from baffle-bottom to get a quasi X-Y coordinate of transducer centers. The center is where you would be positioning the router jig, hey? As example, the 2405 is 9" from baffle-left, and 34-1/4" from baffle-bottom. Make sense? This would reflect the most sensible way to replicate baffle-position related transducer imaging.
Or, simply put: :blah: :blah: :blah:
First, straight in showing the back bracing and position of the network.
Those are towels placed around the opening to rest the LF on.
Toward the left side (this is the RH cabinet).
Toward the right side (RH cabinet).
Looking up, toward the 2122H dog house.
Bracing is 1" thick
On back is 10-1/2" separation.
On sides is positioned ~12-1/2" from base.
Hey Bo
What is the center to center for the midrange horn to the slot center?? Great pictures!!
Rob:)
Hey, Rob...
You can see that in a post of like name. It's on the first "page" of this Thread.
All measurements are made in from left-edge of baffle, and up from bottom-edge of baffle.
Hi Bo
Great pictures !!! I'm really enjoying them . I'm not planning on making 4345s , but I always do enjoy a peek under the hood . Since you have a lot of blue-faced wonders , is there any chance of you taking a small sample (box) to a paint store to get some computerized color matching info for the rest of us ( the DIY crowd ) ? I don't think in any of the past forums we've actually had a definitive on just what JBL blue actually is ( or maybe we did & I was AWOL that day ) . If the store needs a minimum purchase made - find out how much - PM me - & I'll consider financing this expedition through PayPal if possible .
regards <> Earl K :cheers:
Hey, Earl K...
I was thinking this weekend about tossing one of the dwarfs (4301B's ;) ) into the truck and seeing if they could match the baffle color. I don't think they're much computerized in these parts, but we'll see... Maybe Widget has the means?
Whatever JBL used, there was almost indiscernable batch effects - that color is identical on my 4345's, 4313B's and 4301B's. Same-same-same with the grill cloths. :hmm:
Bo, Interesting photos. I enjoyed them.
Are those original stock crossovers? The crossovers in my 4333s and 4343s are housed in a large metal box with terminal strips and point to point wiring, covered with a perforated metal screen. I'm surprized to see that yours are different.
Tom
Hey, Tom...
"Are those original stock crossovers?
Near as I can tell. I had them mostly out, and partly dissassembled, yesterday for a member's (regrettably unrequited... :( ) request. There is no sign they are anything other than the Real McCoy.
Earl K...
I remembered a "laugh" wrt your suggestion of getting "color consulting" done...
Once time, I took a tired-old LE10A that someone had spilled something onto the face of, and went looking to try and match the old off-white Aquaplas face with some touch-up paint. This was the vintage LE10A with the fine, shiny white flecks of what look like maybe gypsum. Well, the HipHop boys manning the paint department were astounded by the size and weight of the motor, but were absolutely befuddled at, and insistant on changing, the white face. "It oughta be black, man - just not right..."
They thought I was, well, at the least, bi... :smsex:
Ha!
Bo,
Regards the pics I'm impressed with your measurements.
I have one question however which may help us Slot fanatics extract the last once of HF performance.
Exactly how far proud does the lip of the 2405 Slot clear of the front baffle? It looks to be an 1/8 inch or so.
This is a key measurement given the small wave lengths at the crossover point, and may also effect HF dispersion and imaging.
regards
macka
Bo, Yes, again , great effort at providing pics and measurements for the 4345. With all the other available information including crossover schematics, it should now be pretty straightforward to build up a pair ( but of course, not cheap ).
Well, I guess being the contrarian that I am, I prefer white cones for HiFi. (Helps keep me from getting confused & thinking that I'm listening to my black-faced SR gear - :bs: :) ).Quote:
befuddled at, and insistant on changing, the white face. "It oughta be black, man - just not right..." :scold: :coolness:
I bought a mint pair ( NIB ) of ancient le10a woofs that I refurbished the LansaLoy surrounds on. Alas, I got one small dot of brake fluid on that "gypsum" faced white cone. Stained it like the dickens - the size of a quarter.
- Did the HipHop boys ever successfully match the off-white color( or get close ) ?
- Or did they manage to send you into retreat mode ?:duck:
regards <. Earl K
Hey, Ian...Quote:
"Exactly how far proud does the lip of the 2405 Slot clear of the front baffle? It looks to be an 1/8 inch or so."
Sorry, for the unfairly delayed reply - I'm "moving in" to a new EQ, and, well, er, you know... :banghead:
The distance from face of baffle to face of these 2405's is 25/100ths inch. I say these, because there are some slight modifications to the 2405's from this vintage to today's.
On this vintage 2405 (16-ohm), the length of the "throat" is exactly 100/100ths inch. But, you can see in the attached from the current 2405 (8-ohm) brochure (JBL Pro 2405 Component Link) the throat is 1-1/16 inch.
On the vintage 2405 (16-ohm) the mounting flange is also 25/100ths inch. I somewhere have a schematic for the vintage 2405, but it must be on my harddrive at work, and I won't be there 'til Thursday...
Hope this helps :D
Hey, Earl K...Quote:
"Did the HipHop boys ever successfully match the off-white color( or get close ) ? "
Yea, they did. There's a kid here who has sniffed all sort of vaporous things and does a really good job matching paint.
However, each white-boy cone is it's own unique shade. Over the years they fade differently, and are colored by their surroundings (or spills... ;) ). So, I've got 4 half-quarts (smallest batch they would mix) for the 4 cones I matched - and I used like two dabs from each. Perfection, has its costs...
But, what the heck were you doing with brake fluid on those LE10A's - some new hydraulic damping? Huh? COME ON, GIVE US YOUR SECRETS!! :rotfl:
Hi Bo,
Got you on those specifications.
At the moment I'm drawing up a new " super baffle " for 4345 clone thanks to your assistance.
It should look cool when I'm finished.
Thanks again for your help.
Cheers
Ian
Bo, the brake fluid softens the old stiff lans-alloy surrounds.
Earl, I would recommend that you air brush the stain. That way you won't add any more mass than is absolutely necessary. Start with an off white that is a close match and blend it in. If you can find an artist friend to do the work suggest they use designers gouache. It is very opaque and matte so very little would be required.
Well, that would save quite a bit of work. ;) Every one I've come across has not only been "stiff", but cracked as well, so replacement was the only route...Quote:
"brake fluid softens the old stiff lans-alloy surrounds."
The 2405s in my 4333 and 4343 cabinets, when mounted from inside the cabinet using the rubber gasket ring, barely protrud and are basically flush with the front baffel with is 1" thick.
Tom
Hi All
Thanks for the air-brushing advice Mr Widget. :)
Bo, heck no, I haven't been holding out on this topic. Most of the chat on the topic "departed" with the implosions of all the previous forums. That's not really such a bad thing, because to successfully mess around with this technique, people must be able to do Fs measurements plus have a lot of patience. I thought you're posting of the pictorial step by step "refoaming a surround" was brilliant - BTW .
This forum does contain a bit of my info on the "brake fluid thing" buried deep within a thread, called 2235 Break in Time .
regards <. Earl K :)
Have you tried plain old pure alcohol (the main solvent in brake fluid)? I've found alcohol to be able to dissolve/soften/de-gunk many of the old surround materials and glues, without screwing up the stuff you want to keep...Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Widget
Bo, the brake fluid softens the old stiff lans-alloy surrounds.
Earl, I would recommend that you air brush the stain. That way you won't add any more mass than is absolutely necessary. Start with an off white that is a close match and blend it in. If you can find an artist friend to do the work suggest they use designers gouache. It is very opaque and matte so very little would be required.
Regards,
Gordon.
Heck, Earl...
I find that in participating on this forum, for the decades I was hefting pro-audio gear for my numerous efforts (and equal number of bands... ;) ) at LIVE sound, while largely ignoring the home gear (or at the least, suffering through store-bought gear...) I learn a great deal from y'all who have done the obverse - spending decades of paying strict attention to all this. Your experiences are vast, and priceless.
I only hope we don't lose this Forum, too. Don? Let us know when finances ar crimping the model. We're always ready... :yes:
For any interested, Ian and I have beem emailing on whether the MF 2122 is centered, or off-set, within the "doghouse" subenclosure. I think we have sorted the mystery, but I will make confirmatory measurements this weekend. Here is an excerpt from an email to Ian:
*****
Hey, Ian...
Your logic appears spot-on. But, I have attached a more compelling picture, and perhaps better guesstimate to your question. This view is looking into the baffle-cut for the 2245H, up toward the doghouse. The 2245H is centered in the baffle, as you know.
The perspective is disorienting, but the view is from the base of the cabinet upwards into the cabinet body. This is of the RH cabinet, thus the ports are on the right. The vertical bracing holding the network is centered on the cabinet back, and thus, so is the 2122 doghouse.
The baffle width (measured inside the molding) is 28 inches wide.
Therefore, using the LH cabinet (where all the photos with the measure tape are collected), since the 2245H is centered, but the 2122 and 2421B are aligned but off mid-line (to the right in LH cabinet), and the approx. center of the 2122 is 17-in from baffle left edge (see relevant view on this Thread), versus baffle vertical mid-line at 14-in from baffle left edge, the 2122H is exactly 3-in "inside", or to the right of the mid-line (3-in right of mid-line in the LH cabinet, and 3-in left of mid-line in the RH cabinet). Thus, the 2122 is not centered within the doghouse.
Make sense? :thmbsup:
Looking at some photos of 4343's, I wonder whether the 2121 MF is mounted above subenclosure center point, for the same reason.
But, I'm (again...) out on a limb, here... :duck:
For completeness, here is a shot through the rear access panel. The 2421B is removed, so you can see through, out my window to the neighbors...
The 2307 is mounted to the baffle, and the 2421B motor is held by a bracket that bolts to the motor-horn join, and then wood-screws into the back of the 2122H subenclosure.
So, I think that's it.
Any questions, post 'em or pm 'em. Good Luck! :thmbsup:
Class, dismissed... :smthsail:
Bo,
You never told us your 4345s (she) has rear entry for easy access.
Got any more tricks Bo!!
Mind you how else would one be able to service the drivers.
Ian
Why, I thought everybody knew that! :yes:Quote:
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
You never told us your 4345s (she) has rear entry for easy access.
That is the boot of the 4345. Where do you think we store all those illicit recone kits? :rotfl:
Hey, Ian...
I thought I'd better tag a reply to this long-ago Thread - there's quite a few dimensions and such you hassled me through (damned Aussie...) and maybe some of the newer fans haven't-yet stumbled this far into our collective past...
You are entirely correct Bo,
My error.
One of the problems is that unlesss we use stickies, many of our valuable threads disappear, and are only visible to new users for 30 days...as I understand it.
Perhaps we can twist Dons arm and move this and the build thread into a special area
Ian
Well we better get qualification on that, Don mentioned as much in conversation the other day.
Wow, I guess I didn't know that. I've sure been wasting time posting on this forum. No wonder the same old shit keeps coming up over and over again.
Yea, that is in-part why I've adopted the Try the Search Button (you dope... ;) ) mantra. It is an amazingly powerful tool, even on so poorly organized a database as is this.
And, that has encourged me to properly label all posts - particularly when there is only an image being posted. Without a label, that image is unattributed (not tagged) and is lost to the ether...
Your time's not wasted.:no: I just wish you wouldn't be so quick on the delete key.:)Quote:
Originally posted by Giskard
Wow, I guess I didn't know that. I've sure been wasting time posting on this forum. No wonder the same old shit keeps coming up over and over again.
Hey, Giskard...
Stumbling around last night, I discovered (loosely used...) that while the active 5234A and passive 3145 networks both crossover at 290Hz, the 5234A uses an 18dB slope, while the internal passive 3145 uses 12dB.
I apologize if we (or you all...) covered this before, but wonder why the passive was not engineered with the same slope as the "preferred" bi-amp active option...?
Bo,
I believe JBL used the 18dB card to build a tweaked 12dB circuit for the 51-5145. I believe this "tweaked" crossover was to correct for the upper bass bloom that I discovered in my earlier 4355 experiments.
Widget
I have recently looked at this odd thing myself.
The 51 5145 card values are a standard 18/18 slope 290 hertz curve. Giskard has modelled that more me recently while I have been quietly developing a more current active network for the 4345/4344 system down here in the deep dark southern hemisphere.....with an Americana Pizza thrown in for good measure. Just waiting on some special juicy parts.
More enlightening however is comment from Greg Timbers:
"Bi-amping, bypassing the input inductor, almost always gives better and tighter bass performance. However, most electronic crossovers have fixed crossover slopes and shapes and our passive crossovers are custom tailored for the response of the specific drivers used. This usually results in more precise acoustic drive parameters. You will note that the specifications call for 290 Hz for the electronic crossover and the passive one is 320 Hz. This was done to get the best response possible from off the shelf electronic curve shapes.
The bottom line is that an electronic crossover on this system probably will sound better than the internal passive, but it is a bunch of extra parts and trouble. "
So, there you have it.
That email is now taken pride and place among others in my Audio Hall of Fame.
I can't wait to commune with Bo's 4345's .
cheers
Ian
Bo,
So, your 4345's have a 2421b(alnico) and 2405h(ferrite). I would have thought both would be alnico. Do you think it was done at the factory like that?
Mine have alnico 2405's and 2421B's but the network / cabinetry is the same as bo's.
Another cool option for biamping is the urei ( pre jbl ) 525 crossover. Since it has 18db slopes, it can be precisely adjusted to 290hz via the front panel frequency counter which actually measures the resonant freq of the crossover point by making it feedback ( ring ) slightly when the momentary switch is engaged.
And if you use in in stereo 3 way mode, and change the first 2 section's filter caps to 2X the original, you can use those as HP filters down to 20hz.
The internal output buffers and xformers can be ignored and the signal picked off earlier for those who fear iron and class B....
:)
sub
The Spice curves.
One of the things I am looking at is S/K filter options for unity gain like the JBL cards or equal component values that offer easy adjustability of crossover point, slope and Q but the higher order filters and high Q options have gain in the passband.
See also Giskards graphs here
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...+voltage+drive
Ian
I guess I got my wires crossed. Too much cross talk in my brain. Perhaps it was a different JBL monitor that used the 18dB card for a "special" curve.... hmmmm.
I can see me casting my L100 off after laying eyes on those darlings.........
Ian
You guys are sick, they're only speakers.
OMG, what have I said....:confused:
No No,
Today is officially JBL Blue day...even down here.
Ian
Giskard:
I thought You could not use profane words, like You just did, in these forums.
:confused: That is most odd, because the graphics I posted show that the passive internal crossover was 290Hz. Odd...Quote:
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
More enlightening however is comment from Greg Timbers:
...You will note that the specifications call for 290 Hz for the electronic crossover and the passive one is 320 Hz. This was done to get the best response possible from off the shelf electronic curve shapes.
You boys been BUSY this morning...!!
Oh, and subwoof - you are correct (good eyes... ;) ). That is the 2405H. The only AlNiCo motor in these is the 2421B - which Widget thinks I've otherwise luckily "tamed" quite pleasingly in my setup/EQ. There is no indication anything in these had been tampered with, except one of the 2245H's which look like someone dropped a screw driver through it, and after repairing the pierce (oh no - more white glue noise...!! :shock: ) re-installed it in a non-factory orientation. But I have two new 2245H's that are going in those gaping baffle cuts... :yes:
Yea, exactly right. Odd this was on the 4345 brochure, while the 5234A is a separate, and obviously, quite tedious, part to work with... :rotf:Quote:
Originally posted by Giskard
...electrical ... which means active.
Then again, I can see where tri-amped is somuch simpler... :spin:
Thanks, dood... :thmbsup:
Yes, indeedy... :yes:
From this:
Hey I want a copy:bouncy: :bouncy:
Rob :)
Dood...
No sweat - pm me your email, and you'll get filled!
Done it already
Ian:cool:
I know. Buy YOURS is printed upside down... :spin:
Oh,
Okay..
Better post the original.........with the instructions.......from our Legend Greg Timbers.
I should point out that without his kind assistance we certainly would not be where we are today with these Forums. Take it away Greg Timbers....
"I have attached some internal Engineering Specification sheets for the 4345 system. I hope they prove useful.
I do believe the gross (excluding the MF sub enclosure) volume on that system was 9 cu.ft. The fiberglass lining adds volume in about the same amount as the stiffeners and back side of the woofer subtract it - giving a net internal volume of 9.The enclosures were lined with 3/4" fiberglass on all surfaces but the baffle. I don't have accurate records of the tuning frequency, however, the impedance curve indicates around 26 Hz. That method usually reads a little lower than the effective tuning when real motion is occurring. I would guess that 27 - 28 Hz is what the system really was. The tuning was somewhat empirically done, based on the results of listening tests. One can change the tuning frequency of that system by +/- 2 Hz and still get a very presentable low frequency curve. It really came down to the preferred sound character. The DCR of the LF inductor will have an audible effect on the sound in the tuning range. The inductor in the 4345 had a DRC of around 0.5 ohms. Your 0.2 is a better number (unaffordable for us in production). It might result in the need to raise the tuning frequency by 1-2 Hz. Your choice of tuning will not hurt the woofer any and should be done to satisfy your taste.
Good luck with your project. "
Greg
The graphs
The graphs
You're making me weak in the knees... :D
Stop posting pictures of these damned things BO!!!
To quote Julie:
These sound really good but your old 4345's looked much nicer!
Well, at least they went to a good home. I must admit that I do miss them.
:rotfl:
It ain't me!! It's been Giskard, Ian, and whomever needs a fix! I was surprised to see them, too! But, I did give them cute 4313B's a hug for my buddy Giskard. ;)
Oh yea, Widget had his first sampling of the 4301B's last night - it was early in the liver abuse process, so he should recall. He ended the evening pretty close to Dead center with Annie Lennox' Medusa at his volume He walked outa the house like this :D ...
About to go from dark to JBL Blue this end.......wow
Will post some worthy pics when done
Ian
It ain't me!! It's been Giskard, Ian, and whomever needs a fix! I was surprised to see them, too! But, I did give them cute 4313B's a hug for my buddy Giskard. ;)
Bo, would you mind posting a close up of those 4313's. Gonna need to think seriously about building up a pair, I bet they sound Cool.
Ian:dancin:
:scold: No, no, no. JBL Evolution goes the other way... :rotfl:Quote:
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
...would you mind posting a close up of those 4313's. Gonna need to think seriously about building up a pair...
Okay, pair of Micro 9800 mini's then
Ian
MY wifey got tired of the old photo, and wanted to assure other wifeys out there, that while she agreed the 4345's in the family room, they needed proper presentation! :rotfl: No wires, cabling, or racks (or fans!!!).
Here it is...
I give up Bo!
Where did you hide the rack?
Ken
Has anyone found the dark blue JBL grill cloth yet?
Ken
Hey Bo,
Does Suz keep having to buy new candles because they keep vibrating off the table or have you felt pads under everthing?
Seriously, my entire bar full of glasses literally rings on certain bass notes.
Ian
I checked again the other day and it allegedly isn't being used at all in the States. Just black.Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Pachkowsky
Has anyone found the dark blue JBL grill cloth yet?
Ken
In the pantry... No kidding. My own little sound booth. :DQuote:
Originally posted by Ken Pachkowsky
Where did you hide the rack?
I 'spose now you want a picture of that...??!!
A pantry......................Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Honey!!! Have ya got a minute?:scold:
:rotfl:
Yea, we agreed to sacrifice our secret repair to get the rack out of sight... :(
Yeah, Have industrial hardware in the family quarters would be a bit abstract
Anyways , Glad your not doin that Bose Lifestyle Thing!
Ian:rolleyes:
Thanks Ian for the system spec.
I think the page 2 is missing and page 3 is double. Could you fix this?
Thanks!
Damned Aussies... ;)
OOPS,
Thanks Bo,
Hey my 4345 (diy) is now true JBL Blue..yippy
regards
Ian
Well the benefits of proper EQ cannot be under estimated.
Just been demo'd Smart Live, a precision measurement package, the FFT gives a true account of whats really going on.
The difference with EQ done right, even when subtle is very noticeable.
Damn Yankee, and those 4345 are sweet.
Back to the Bad Boys WOW
Ian :eek:
Just to keep things current, and properly cross-referenced:
The 4345 Foilcal has some close-ups, with scale.
Hey, Ian...
Here we go. These are tricky - can't use flash because of glare off the tape. With no assitant, here's what I mananged.
The grill is 2.75 inches (7 cm) thick, with the front slightly smaller than it's back. I will leave it to you to determine absolute dimensions from these pics.
First, height of FRONT edge of front of grill:
OK, now width of FRONT edge of front of grill:
Height of BACK edge of back of grill