Old and new jbl woofers : Differences

Hi,

I wanted to come back on a past thread about S4700 and S3900 : http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ter-than-S4700

In this thread I read Dave complaining about the bottom end of these speakers…. I read 4313B writing “for ten grands or more I want it all, not 90% of the spectrum” (quoting from memory), and again regretting the L300’s woofers (136A or 2235h?) being at ease around 30Hz…. On another forum a 4367 buyer cut them at 80Hz (to avoid the port) and add a sub (or two)….some folks here have switch from 4365 to 4367 to get better low end response….(Mctwin if I am correct ?)…

So it seems that :
1 since JBL is japonese, the low end is not what it use to be
2 technical progresses are not questioned and the new woofers would be better in dynamic, SPL, and timber
3 as a result some people get use to the “new woofers sound”, others just don’t.

But reading the FRC of some of the new transducers, as far as I can understand it,the old school 2235H that is in my 4430 (and was replacement for the 136A in the L300) starts to go down at 2800 Hz!, and is (classically) at -10dB at 30 Hz from what it was at 2800Hz…. Ok but the SPL at 30Hz is only 84dB…..(starting thus from 94dB at 2800 Hz) (still better than the LE14H3 which is at 82dB at 30Hz)
Whereas, say the 2216Nd, starts to go down at 200 Hz and is at -10dB at 30Hz, same…. Except that the SPL at 30Hz is 105dB and not 84dB…. And 1501AL 1 and 2 are even better (starting to go down at 150 Hz, and finishing for the 1 at an astonishing 106 dB at 30 Hz!

So here are my questions:
Can someone explain me:
How much tehcnological progress have been made between the 2235H and the 2216Nd or 1501 AL ?
What are the results in terms of sound ?
Why, provided that one do not need a 115 dB sensitivity speaker , one do not equilize the new woofers at say 100 dB (or less!)…. As it would go flat till 20 Hz ….?

Hallo!

I still have my 4365, never listen to 4367. I don't have any problem with the bass performance. I also would like to know what's the fuzz about JBL Japanese market.

So what is the difference??

:)

oh I thought you upgraded with the 4367.....If you never heard of them hear they are: http://www.jblsynthesis.com/productdetail/id-4367.html

The problem with the bass.... As I said on another forum I can give you the link someone cut these at 80Hz to put subs.... but to stay on the thread i mentioned i took some quote from forumers to remind you and peharps explain my questions....

Dave 725 : You know, I had buyer's remorse with the S4700s that I have, almost to the point of selling them. It's true.
Martin wu 99 : So i understood,S4700 and M2 are "modern school",ARRAY1400 and S4600 are "old school",they are different style
S4700: Hi guys, I have had my S4700's for about 5 months now. I too was a little disappointed in their performance initially,
AS 21 Only yesterday a group of 4 of us spent some time in a high end audio shop evaluating a number of different speakers. They pretty much gave us the liberty of trying out whatever we wanted - as long as we wanted - without a salesman present. There was a used pair of S4700s on the floor which looked barely used and noticing the $20K price tag, we decided to give them a whirl expecting great things. Unfortunately all 4 of us found them rather lackluster which was quite opposite our expectations.
MARTINWU 99:so it looks like S4700 also need sub.
FORT Nox: the S4700 has good highs and a sub ....and no bass
4313B: The smaller S3900 doesn't give up any bandwidth to the larger S4700. In fact, it goes a bit deeper than the S4700.
Dave72: So, there you go, 9 months of break-in even playing them just about every day!
4313b:
I have a "problem" with a modern fifteen-inch three-way that can't get down to a solid 30 Hz like the L300/4333 could. Simply put, I expect alot from my JBL fifteen-inch three-ways. They'd better kick some serious a$$ on the bottom end. It's a personal requirement.
For thirty thousand dollars I want it all. Period.

In any case, I simply bought the components instead, built my own boxes and ended up with it all. I really couldn't be happier and it was a mere fraction of thirty grand. And there wasn't more than a week of break-in involved. I just don't have those kinds of issues. If I owned a pair of S4700's and they took six months to break-in they'd be at the curb. I have zero tolerance for bullshit, especially from a pair of expensive loudspeakers.
No, it isn't fair, but I just couldn't live with a low frequency response tailored to a market I'll never live in. I just can't reconcile paying vast sums of money for 80% or even 90% performance. I wanted something that was better than my 4430's with their strong performance down into the 20 - 30 Hz region so I had to bite the bullet and go back to the tried and true "JBL fifteen in a five cubic foot box" solution. [IMG]file:///C:\Users\EFTA20~1\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\ 01\clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

as when it comes to the japonese market, I thought people came to distinguish american production and sound to japonese one, but i am wrong obviously.....

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Originally Posted by Mctwins

Hallo!

, never heard of 4367.

:)

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How come you even participated in the thread ??!! about the 4367:

dallas Justice: I understand JBL choosing a bass reflex design but I an not a huge fan of resonating air, how do you find the bass Michael, what are the Giyas reflextoo and the YGs ,sealed box?Keith.



Frantz is correct. I cross them over at 80hz to subs. So the port group delay never comes into the equation. I will say that the bass sounds very clean and fast.

link http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18741-Jbl-4367/page12

Sounds like you are confusing "woofer" and "tuning". Read what 4313B wrote, he took the modern woofer and put it in a box tuned to his preference and got the bass he desired.

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Originally Posted by davidpou

How come you even participated in the thread ??!! about the 4367:

dallas Justice: I understand JBL choosing a bass reflex design but I an not a huge fan of resonating air, how do you find the bass Michael, what are the Giyas reflextoo and the YGs ,sealed box?Keith.



Frantz is correct. I cross them over at 80hz to subs. So the port group delay never comes into the equation. I will say that the bass sounds very clean and fast.

link http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18741-Jbl-4367/page12

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What I meant was I have never listen to 4367, my post has been edit.

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Originally Posted by JeffW

Sounds like you are confusing "woofer" and "tuning". Read what 4313B wrote, he took the modern woofer and put it in a box tuned to his preference and got the bass he desired.

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So it would be the tuning choice....the box?...the crossover ? that would be at stake,not the woofers themselves?(-6dB at 38Hz)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JeffW

Sounds like you are confusing "woofer" and "tuning". Read what 4313B wrote, he took the modern woofer and put it in a box tuned to his preference and got the bass he desired.

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so be it... that is why I am asking... because I do not know, and i make confusions....
Well not much of an answer, still I would like to understand… if you please…

I take for granted that:
4313b: “The components in the 4367 are night and day better than the 4430 components from 1981”
BUT I still want to understand and, if no one would bother to explain, just to have confirmation that a different tuning (box, vent) with say the 2216Nd1 would produce the good old bass extension, say 30Hz at 0dB…
I recently asked a carpenter in here and he came back to me with 32Hz at -3dB for 180 liters…
Can anyone give other figures; I do not know the guy and have no means to validate/invalidate his maths…

Now, Mctwin, to answer the question you asked me (when it is all over the place here in many discussions you were part of, so I am a little surprised again you ask me):
Mctwin: “I also would like to know what's the fuzz about JBL Japanese market. What is the difference ?"

The answers from authorities here since my word is not enough:
4313b: “It might have to do with what some folks might be used to. If they grew up listening to systems based on transducers like the 124/2203, LE14, 2231/2235 or 2245 they might be used to a bit more very low frequency response.”
4313b: “G.T. has always maintained that his newer systems can use a few dB of boost on the bottom end for the North American market.”
JPW: “He is right that the 4367 does not have much bottom octave bass (20-40hz). The best I am able to get with my 4367's in several different rooms firing down the long wall with listening position well away from walls is flat to 50-60hz quickly drooping to 6db or more down at 40hz.”
“THE PROBLEM IS that even after lots of placement experimentation and utilizing the riser, the frequency response of this speaker is not flat in the bottom end. The range from 80-160 hz is up 4-6db compared to 50hz and 200-250hz on either side. The output at 40 hz has come up from where it was earlier with the speakers further into the room, but it is still 6 down from 50hz.”
“The loss of bass at 40hz is more of a concern.”
Ian Makenzie: “You might not but HiFi is not about low bass.
I guess that is the point of the Japanese market and why they are voiced for them and not for western taste.”
“The Japanese production uses the banana curve in the bass.
GT has mentioned this previously.
This results in a smooth bass but nothing like loudness effect or "boom" we are accused to.
The Japanese sound is certainly more hifi but l would not call that more enjoyable.”

Greg Timbers: “The 4367 is a good system for those who like the large Monitor format. It measures well, sounds detailed and musical but is lean in the bottom octave as are all of the post 1985 or so "Japan" product.”
“The design goal of the 4367 was to equal or surpass the performance of the 4365 in a smaller enclosure and for 1/3 less money! Done and Done. The system will thrive on LF EQ. There is plenty of headroom in the woofer so 4 - 6 dB of boost around 32 Hz will really spice up the mix.”
DaveM: “Above Greg's comment is very reasonable for who knows Japanese market, and I know that very well. The reason why they do not need low frequency extension is not due to the room size, but due to a stereotype in Japan, JBL is THE speaker for acoustic music, especially for Jazz, and when they say Jazz, it means Jazz from 50s-60s. There is also a consensus in Japan that lighter woofer cone sounds better for acoustic music, weight ring on modern woofer is evil, artificial and DISCO.”

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Originally Posted by davidpou

So it would be the tuning choice....the box?...the crossover ? that would be at stake,not the woofers themselves?(-6dB at 38Hz)

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I'm quite sure that the voicing of all the newer class 15" woofers has been moved upwards by a partial octave.

You can check ( for yourself ) my contention by manipulating a woofer's TS parameters .

Divide Qes into Fs ( Fs/Qes ) to arrive at the EBP.

The EBP figure is a good determinate of the ( low-end ) voicing available through box alignments.

I'll give you a few examples ( & then you are on your own to figure out the EBP figure for any woofer you're interested in );

2245H ( EBP ) = 20hz / .27 = 70 ( hz )

2235H ( EBP ) = 20hz / .28 = 71.5 ( hz )

1501fe ( EBP ) = 29.5hz / .25 = 118 ( hz )

2226h ( EBP ) = 40.0hz / .33 = 121 ( hz )

So a conclusion ( of sorts );

- The 1501fe has a naturally higher "voice" when compared to the 2235H or 2245H.
- This woofer is voiced as more baritone than bass ( just as in a singers choir ) .
- It'll have better mid-bass characteristics than the 2235 ( at the expense of low-bass reproduction ).

ADDEDUM; Why Change ( the EBP ) figures ?
- JBL has been making sub-woofers for decades now ( & it all started with the somewhat anemic 18" K151 / way back when ).
- They have obviously ( from the numbers ) made a conscious effort ( since the early 90's ) to give their newer 15" woofers a higher voice ( & by extension leave the reproduction of real low bass job to their line of dedicated subwoofers ).

A bigger enclosure size won't change the inherent voice of the woofer / it'll just change the ( box/woofer ) alignment ( & that might extract a tiny bit more low bass ).

As you have quoted ( GT ) here a couple of times, these newer woofers can easily be EQed to get more low bass ( since they have good power handling and decent Xmax figures ).

:)

Tone controls and equalizers exist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

I'm quite sure that the voicing of all the newer class 15" woofers has been moved upwards by a partial octave.

You can check ( for yourself ) my contention by manipulating a woofer's TS parameters .

Divide Qes into Fs ( Fs/Qes ) to arrive at the EBP.

The EBP figure is a good determinate of the ( low-end ) voicing available through box alignments.

I'll give you a few examples ( & then you are on your own to figure out the EBP figure for any woofer you're interested in );

2245H ( EBP ) = 20hz / .27 = 70 ( hz )

2235H ( EBP ) = 20hz / .28 = 71.5 ( hz )

1501fe ( EBP ) = 29.5hz / .25 = 118 ( hz )

2226h ( EBP ) = 40.0hz / .33 = 121 ( hz )

So a conclusion ( of sorts );

- The 1501fe has a naturally higher "voice" when compared to the 2235H or 2245H.
- This woofer is voiced as more baritone than bass ( just as in a singers choir ) .
- It'll have better mid-bass characteristics than the 2235 ( at the expense of low-bass reproduction ).

ADDEDUM; Why Change ( the EBP ) figures ?
- JBL has been making sub-woofers for decades now ( & it all started with the somewhat anemic 18" K151 / way back when ).
- They have obviously ( from the numbers ) made a conscious effort ( since the early 90's ) to give their newer 15" woofers a higher voice ( & by extension leave the reproduction of real low bass job to their line of dedicated subwoofers ).

A bigger enclosure size won't change the inherent voice of the woofer / it'll just change the ( box/woofer ) alignment ( & that might extract a tiny bit more low bass ).

As you have quoted ( GT ) here a couple of times, these newer woofers can easily be EQed to get more low bass ( since they have good power handling and decent Xmax figures ).

:)

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Well that is enlightening, thanks.

Could you explain what these EBP frequencies mean in terms of FRC ? how do they relate to, say for the 2235H, the final 35Hz +/- 3dB written on the spec of the 4430 for instance ?

On one hand you start saying "I'm quite sure that the voicing of all the newer class 15" woofers has been moved upwards by a partial octave" and on the other you demonstrate the new woofers are intrinsically less capable in the bottom end (upper EBPs) ?
so, it s a little bit of both ? (I am just trying to get it right, not ironizing)

For the sub, indeed you are right and that makes sense... still I wanted something that does it all in a two way system.... a dream may be

Quote:

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On one hand you start saying "I'm quite sure that the voicing of all the newer class 15" woofers has been moved upwards by a partial octave" and on the other you demonstrate the new woofers are intrinsically less capable in the bottom end (upper EBPs) ?
so, it s a little bit of both ? (I am just trying to get it right, not ironizing)

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There's no paradox here ( I didn't say the EBP numbers have been moved downwards ).
- If you see an inconsistency in my text then it might be translation ( language ) based .

The EBP numbers ( I displayed ) show that ( indeed ) the voicing of most newer 15's have trended upwards ( when compared to legacy drivers ) . There have been exceptions to the trend ( such as the 2216nd & 2216nd-1 ).

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Could you explain what these EBP frequencies mean in terms of FRC ? how do they relate to, say for the 2235H, the final 35Hz +/- 3dB written on the spec of the 4430 for instance ?

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Consider these EBP numbers as very simple guidelines for what frequency range the woofer is most efficicent in ( plus or minus an octave ) .

The ( consequence of ) higher EBP numbers is the production of less LF bass ( within a Reflex alignment ) .

I suggest that you now start number crunching on your own / as well as , download something like WinISD Pro so that you can play with different box/woofer alignments.


:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Earl K

There's no paradox here ( I didn't say the EBP numbers have been moved downwards ).
- If you see an inconsistency in my text then it might be translation ( language ) based .

The EBP numbers ( I displayed ) show that ( indeed ) the voicing of most newer 15's have trended upwards ( when compared to legacy drivers ) . There have been exceptions to the trend ( such as the 2216nd & 2216nd-1 ).



Consider these EBP numbers as very simple guidelines for what frequency range the woofer is most efficicent in ( plus or minus an octave ) .

The ( consequence of ) higher EBP numbers is the production of less LF bass ( within a Reflex alignment ) .

I suggest that you now start number crunching on your own / as well as , download something like WinISD Pro so that you can play with different box/woofer alignments.


:)

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there is no paradox because BOTH the newer 15" have trended upward AND because the speakers are tuned one octove above what the driver can do ? right ?

Tonight I made a room curve with mini DSP for the 4430 (alone) and listened to the very same tracks i listen a lot when my AV receiver a yamaha 3050 is playing music with my sub on the 4430....It might be my quick and dirty room curve but indeed the bass is so much better with the sub...

So unless one listens only to 50 ' and 60' jazz, one needs a sub for recent (since 1985 ?) woofers...
so it cannot be plug and play anymore cause one needs to make a crossover between the sub and the mains, and so one needs to be able to measure, adress phase issues, overlaping or not overlaping response, not mentionning room issues for the sub on top of the room issues with the mains, etc...not at everyone's reach...

this has been really helpfull, thanks; I will download the sof as I am making boxes for 2214H pulled out of my 4425. I bought some 2426H and 2370A... ultraclassic....
If it goes out well I will pull the trigger on 2216Nd1 (shipping + 35% taxes to europe ! aouch!)

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[COLOR=#333333]there is no paradox because BOTH the newer 15" have trended upward AND because the speakers are tuned one octove above what the driver can do ? right ?

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Well, mostly right // you have the concepts correct / but ( details ? ) ;

JBL isn't really tuning their newer boxes 1 whole octave higher / just a small portion of an octave //
and the point 4313B was trying to get across / these newer woofers are sometimes put in smaller than optimally sized enclosures.

Even many of their consumer subs can stand to be in larger enclosures ( for optimal results ).

:)

PS; Most of this becomes quite clear when one starts playing around with box tuning software like WinISD Pro Download ​ .

JBL specs the 4430 at 35Hz-16kHz +/- 3dB and the 4365 at 35Hz-40kHz -6dB so maybe the low end of the 4365 isn't quite what the 4430 will deliver, but it's not a huge difference spec-wise. I don't have anechoic measurements of both on hand.