Today I saw on the web some review announcing the last K2 project : S9900
In fact, it looks like a K2 S9800 mounted with the 476be driver. The horn remind me the Everest design.
I would appreciate more details.
Printable View
Today I saw on the web some review announcing the last K2 project : S9900
In fact, it looks like a K2 S9800 mounted with the 476be driver. The horn remind me the Everest design.
I would appreciate more details.
Mon ami, voulez-vous dire ceci?
Excellent photos here:
http://www.phileweb.com/news/audio/i...?id=8733&row=0
Here's a teaser:
1500AL-1
476Mg
045Be-1
Nice. If what has been said is true, that, and a good subwoofer, might even be preferable to the Eversest II, although I would think there is a somewhat raised crossover frequency.
Cool slides at this site that ends with this:
(Be sure to look at all three slides.)
http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20090217/jbl.htm
Quite possibly in some rooms... I had a sneak peek at them a few months ago... these pics look more diminutive than the speaker appears in person. They are quite shallow, but are wider than you might imagine. All and all a heck of a step forward from the 9800.
Widget
The material used for the horn driver is no more Be but Magnesium ?
Somewhere there might be a White Paper:
http://dyna5555.cocolog-nifty.com/5555blog/2009/02/no283-563f.html
US price equivalent of $44,650 per pair.
http://www.bornrich.org/entry/jbl-li...peaker-system/
Very nice looking. How do you think it compares to the S9800? Have they managed to make the Mg driver sound as good as the previous 435Be?
-Tim
Hey, 4313B,
As much as I'd dearly LOVE to own something like this, I have to agree with you. For me, and very probably for most other folks, $44,650 is more than a little hard to gather together, much less spend on a pair of speakers, wonderful though they may be! :blink:;) To me, the funny thing about "making do" with the Vintage JBL stuff, is that it still smokes most of the other stuff that's available for sale out there, these days, and by a huge margin! I am very happy to know that JBL continues to advance the SOTA in speaker design and performance. But, I'm even more happy that even their older systems continue to outperform most other offerings today! I am blessed to have a few of those systems, now, and am very grateful that they came my way! Still, it would be wonderful to hear the differences between the JBL's with which we all "make do", and the newest JBL designs. Doubt that it will ever happen, though, as much as I might want it to take place. Take care, and God Bless!
Every Good Wish,
Doc
It looks more "home-friendly" than the DD66000, at least for average-sized homes. The S9900 is something I might actually be able to put in my house. It's a really beautiful adaptation of the basic Everest design. (It makes my Synthesis® stuff look postively stodgy. :o: )
Now I can resist the call of the K2 S9800 in anticipation of the gorgeous S9900. (Well, unless some S9800s come on the market at blow out prices.)
More K2 s9800 on second hand market. What a good news:applaud:
BEAUTIFUL!
need to rush to the lotto joint and put my bet on that 48 million pot tomorrow, one of the biggest in canada's history...and if i win, i'll make sure everyone in this thread until this post get a brand new spankin pair!:applaud::):bouncy:
Bless you Polar Bear. I'll stack some stones for your (our) good fortune.
Realistically, very few loudspeakers should be seen, and the ones that should be seen belong in a museum with the rest of the art fixtures.
When you have your people call their people with your verified credit card number or certified bank draft.
K2 S9900 for all.
very nice ti dom
seems its bass has been a little returned a little deeper and very extended
that must be very natural and agile Bass
i wonder if Mg will be the new titanium for JBL
i now probably titanium has better stress properties so jblpro will keep on using it
we shall wait for the 25th to see the official launching and white papers
Hey, 4313B,
Sounds to me that you don't disagree, at all, actually. ;) I said it would be very nice to hear the differences, and it would. I never said there WEREN'T any differences. Of course, I would fully expect the newest and best JBL stuff to blow away what I, and most other JBL owners, hold near and dear! Why on earth would I NOT expect that to happen?? ;) I'd dearly love to hear just how much better they are. But, as for springing almost $45,000 to actually purchase a pair, I, for one, simply cannot afford to do so, even if I wanted to do so. I would imagine that most other JBL lovers are in the same boat, maybe including yourself, Sir! ;)
Time marches on, improvements are made, specifications and performance get better. Sometimes you can afford the best, sometimes you can't. That does nothing to change the fact that most of the old JBL stuff still smokes a good deal of what passes for stereo speakers on the mass market today, wouldn't you agree? Sure, there will always be the best and brightest offerings. But, how many folks even get to KNOW about such things, much less find them to purchase? Not many can afford the best, especially at today's prices. Inflation not withstanding, $45,000 is still WAY out of reach for most of us.
I believe that you and I are on the same page, basically. Semantics might be different, but we both understand our JBL peas from our JBL carrots, me thinks! ;):D Take care, and God Bless!
Every Good Wish,
Doc
As a sideline, has JBL ever thought about going active with these big systems. I assume it would never happen as their target market already has amps and other fancy bits of "bling" to use.
My dream system would be something like a pair of 4338's with a triplet of amp packs in each box :D. How much better would the bottom end of the S9900's be without the passive x-over sucking power and damping factor away from the driver.
the K2 S9900 are biampble so if you wish it is posible
I agree with 4313B in that from my own direct auditioning of the Everest and K series in Japan they are different from the legacy gear and the contemporary Blue monitor ranges based on legacy Trad JBLs.
They are engineered as an SOA systems to compete with the very best Hifi audiophile loudspeakers available.
I think JBL recognises the demand in that market and this model will slot in nicely.
JBL also caters for the long term brand loyal followers with the Blue monitor series who grew up with legacy products. There is also the new LS series for those where space is at a premium and want a contemporary Hifi sound on a less ambitious scale than the Everest or K series.
You really have to hear them go to fully appreciate the distinction but the JBL Japan brochure posted over in the reference area goes some way towards conveying what these fabulous loudspeakers can do for your ears.:)
Twenty-five years from now 4313B will be telling us how much better the latest JBL-HK 1.1 holographic two-pound speaker systems are than the long-forgotten K2 series. but they'll only be available in China. Seawolf will be finding DD66000s at the Portland Goodwill. Rick Riessen will be offering a run of K2 clones. Zilch will be finding K2s in dumpsters and cutting them up to install Parts Express carbon-fibre wave guides to improve them. GT will have submitted an improved Intel-chip K2 network design that can be made from recycled personal communicators. Ian will still be trying to explain how they should be wired. And I'll be trying to pay $200 for a pair of K2-S9900s in some world-currency backed by CitiBanc of Antigua.
That's assuming heart-valve technology has kept pace with the advancement in the use of precious metals in compression drivers.
:)
The documents I posted should answer any pertinent questions posed in this thread so far.
K2-S9900
Agreed.
The graph that accompanies the statement below is quite impressive. The improved 1500AL-1 isn't just a cosmetic upgrade like some -1 drivers. There are real meat and potatoes changes.
The 476Mg is an amazing piece of work. I'm now really excited about hearing it in action. Tomorrow is the big unveiling in many parts of the world. Is it in the US as well?
Sow JBLPRO is finally cooking something big for studiosQuote:
True. The 1500AL-1 is an 8 ohm version of the 12 ohm 1501AL used in the Everest II. Both handle more power than the original 8 ohm 1500AL, which kept blowing up in high power Studio applications.
that would be just great the icing in the cake
I guess the 1501AL-1 must be substantially greater.
Ron
:) Just for the pleasure in your eyes:
I agree completely. For twenty plus thousand dollars, one would expect some active features. It's not like the technology doesn't exist. Hell, backyard hackers can buy cheapy dedicated Zetex Class D feedback amps to take the bass driver's natural limitations and offset them. You don't even have to get fancy with servo drive accelerometers or optical sensors like Velodyne - just simple, elegant current sensing feedback does wonders all by itself. I've wondered for years why anyone would want to spend 15 to 20K for a pair of K2's when bass response is -10db at 35hz - I think Audio magazine measured the L250 more than a decade ago as performing better than that in the bottom end! The 1500 driver is probably set up with less compliance to achieve greater linearity at high outputs. Anyways, for some of us - newer is not always better. Although the Be drivers do look like a major advancement in dynamic capabilities - on paper at least. I'm sure I'll never know - the nearest pair of K2's is probably 500 miles from where I live.:(
The -10db point is measured anechoic. And anyway, how much info is there below 30Hz on normal music.
I have listened to the Ti240 wich uses the same woofer as the 250. I have also listened quite a bit to the K2 S9800. Not much of a competition to be honest. The K2's is lightyears ahead.
-Tim
In a posting by 4313B ahead of yours cited there is a link to a white paper "which should answer any pertinent questions posed in this thread ...". (Appropriate frequency response below.)
For music in normal rooms this is sufficient. If you want a home cinama for earth shaking lows you should go with several subs for a better performance - it is quite another shoe.Quote:
I've wondered for years why anyone would want to spend 15 to 20K for a pair of K2's when bass response is -10db at 35hz.
Not only this but in resolution and clarity too.Quote:
Although the Be drivers do look like a major advancement in dynamic capabilities - on paper at least.
____________
Peter
The techbot graphs for the 250 and K2 look pretty darn close - both losing about 10db at roughly 35hz. For JBL's flagship though, I would expect performance that is at least equal to - not inferior to competing products.
Case in point: Velodyne DD18. Now before you start, don't give me a line about this being a sub and not a fair comparison. There are a number of other companies that produce full range flagships that dont need a sub - Wilson Audio comes to mind.
Seriously, who was Velodyne 50 years ago? This is J freakin' BL we're talking about. If Velodyne can come up with a sub that provides accurate response from 14-120hz with about .5% distortion - why can't JBL show them how to build a unit that not only matches its performance but provides the durability and reliability JBL is famous for - something most of the Velodyne owners I've known have complained about? And if your spending 20-25 thousand for a system - shouldn't it be part of the system not an add-on option?
And to someone else who previously posted, low bass performance does matter and YES, there is a lot of important musical information down at that frequency. I run a Crown Macro Tech 2400 with my 250ti's and you have to be very careful on many recordings, hell not even recordings - my Kenwood L07T MII produces enough FM low bass energy from overblown hiphop stations to send the LE14H-1's into orbit at roughly half gain setting on the Macro Tech and half gain setting on the PSL-2 preamp. For people that want to exploit the full dynamic range of modern technology and performances like that on my Telarc 1812 Overture disc, you can never have enough dynamic low bass output capability. I'm not saying the K2 can't handle the famous Telarc cannon shots or for that matter, some overblown hiphop crap on FM - but given the specs, I'm a little disappointed JBL didn't decide it was worthwhile showing the likes of Velodyne and its followers what the folks in Northridge are fully capable of.
i think you dont get it
jbl measurements are anechoic in room gain will give you at least f3 30hz in room
and it you see the cut off continues steady so thy do go low
this gives you natural and agile bass no boominess if you want more bass for movies or for party ad a specialized product
if you have 46000 for the 2 th best 30hz to 50000 hz speaker i guess you have the cash to buy a nice subs like the array1500 or the 2242h based drivers and or a eq
if you have a speaker that is flat to 20hz in anechoic condition your going to limit the use of this speaker to only very well treated rooms like studios subs are a good way of adjusting this since you have a volume control
The old LE14H-1 in the 250Ti has just about the best LF extension of any JBL loudspeaker ever produced. As Greg has mentioned several times - "It damn near goes to DC."
That said, the 1500AL and 1501AL are superior in overall performance to the LE14H-1 or LE14H-3. And they should be for the amount of engineering that went into them.
The 1500AL-1 in the K2-S9900 is tuned a bit higher (and the box is a bit smaller in effective volume) than the 1500AL in the K2-S9800 so it doesn't have quite the LF extension. Both systems meet the design requirements regardless of what the guys who hear with their eyes publicly post. We went through this same scenario with people whining about the Everest II. They couldn't get past the F3 spec. Whatever. They wouldn't have the money to purchase the Everest II anyway so it is a moot point. The Everest II, and the K2-S9900, sell to exactly the people they are supposed to sell to and at the end of the day that is all that matters. :)
These aren't high volume sellers. These are TOTL High Performance loudspeakers targeted at a market that is head over heels in love with them and I think it's fantastic because they are really nice loudspeakers! :yes:
Good point and Greg seems quite fond of the banana curve response these days (for the last fifteen years or so). It seems to work really well with a variety of rooms.
:yes:
I'm aware of the room response issue. Perhaps it is you who are not "getting it". Read here:
http://www.stereophile.com/subwoofer...ne/index2.html
note the frequency response and distortion spec
also note the the amplifier's dynamic output capability (3000watts)
For a more in-depth education about servo woofer technology, I suggest you read up further about Velodyne (servo woofer pioneer), TC Sounds, and Audiopulse to name a few. This technology has been around for a while and is here to stay. The fact that JBL is not jumping on it - stamping its own know-how and muscle on this part of the industry is a bit of a mystery to me. Since Velodyne introduced the first servo feedback controlled woofer, there have been a number of other manufacturers that have followed suit - most of which have produced high performing products.
As we all know, the full range of human hearing extends from 20hz to 20khz (if you're young and in good health;)) . The goal of any top speaker producer should be to make a product that does not limit reproduction in that range - PERIOD. Beyond that range who other than your dog really cares? The K2 just doesn't meet this bar. Should it? That's certainly debateable. Given JBL's history, I should hope most people on here would think its a worthwhile endeavor - particularly if others - like Velodyne are already doing it.
As for subs just being a tool to adjust room response anomalies - I beg to differ. In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate. Should this happen with a flagship JBL speaker that was designed to handle 400W continuous sine wave (presumably around 1khz which is basically a useless spec) - in my opinion - no. But as I have an engineering background - I understand the competing goals of efficiency/sensitivity (low signal compression), low distortion, wide bandwidth, and high power handling capability. The point is, accurate powerful low bass reproduction is and should be a design goal for any manufacturer's flagship speaker. For the price many flagship speakers are selling at these days - it should not be an optional or added cost feature. It should be a significant part of the design effort and ultimately - the package that's presented.
The folks at Northridge are showing exactly what needs to be shown at the so-called high end.
They not only have the best testing facilities on the continent and perhaps the world, but they have the engineering and design chops to do anything that the competition is doing, including copying it and beating it at its game, if that were actually worth doing.
Instead, they are innovating. Think about that word. Roll it around in your head. Examine its nuances.
There's no need for JBL to reinvent SVS or Velodyne testosterone engineering and technology. Those who need that kind of thing buy it; those who do not need it don't buy it.
Northridge also has an extensive and state-of-the-art listening and evaluation process that involves lots of human ears. The results of this testing is the acid test. Specs are one thing; sound is another. If it specs well but sounds wrong, the specs do not matter.
Over the past several years, JBL has produced some solid winners, including the Project Arrays, SAM units, Everest II, and now the K2 S99000. For the direct driver crowd there's the Performance Series.
All the second-guessing in the world won't change the fact that the K2 S99000 is another remarkable achievement and that it was designed from a tradition of beautiful execution and magnificent sound infused with technological innovation.
Like arguing one motorcycle is "better" than another because its published top speed is higher. Specs don't tell the whole story especially when they're looked at in isolation of others. Oftentimes it's the sum of the individual components that makes the whole so good regardless of the individual specs. Like tube amps and vinyl. Better is a subjective thing. Until you place your ass in the saddle and do test drive for yourself, you're only getting part of the picture.
I can't believe you are a engineer and still running drivers into the ground!:blink:
The LE-14's are a hell of a driver that do just what they are supposed to do. :D
But they were not meant for concert level reproduction!:banghead:
It sounds like you would not be happy with any audio speakers on the planet from what I'm reading!:biting:
Ron
[quote=villastrangiato;242712]
In fact, my LE14H-1's would beg to differ. The amp I'm running with them in my opinion is not terribly oversized (520wpc, 8 ohms, .05%3rd harmonic from 20-20K) Yet there have been many, many times I've had to back way off of gain to keep the woofer voice coils from hitting the back plates. Generally, before that happens, there are plenty of other signs of distress (unstable cone oscillation/overexcursion/audible breakup) - but the real concern I've had and it has happened a few times in the past 15 years, is when the voice coil hammers the back plate.
quote]
Yes, one can achieve low THD via servos. But, IMHO - the main purpose behind servos in the consumer audio market is to force an inexpensive driver to perform like an expensive one. Electronics and piezo accelerometers are cheap in comparison to a high quality driver.
My guess is that JBL just does the opposite, that's all....:)
Hi Dome,
I would not under estimate the competition but its about holding channel market share through hi end dealers and pushing the JBL brand to the end users with particular models that are going to appeal.
To explain when I went over to Japan the way hi end audio is merchandised is very different to pehaps elsewhere.
While JBL sell into a number of other countries after seeing an Everest in virtually every hi end store its a no brainer they sell a lot (proportionally) in Japan.
Some dealers have stores with nine or more floors and have a floor per brand they are selling or its based geographically on European sound, American sound, World audio and so on. Some stores are more conventional with mass market audio on the ground floor, home theatre on the next floor and as you go up the prices and quality goes up.
So JBL may have a whole floor in a store or with only one or two other competing brands and there is a sales manager exclusively for that floor.
The customer arrives and has an appointment to audition a particular model of JBL.
What I observed is that none of the dealers that I visited had subs being used within any of the hi end rooms.
The only direct competitor I saw to JBL was Tannoy in that Tannoy obviously have hi sensitivity horn loaded systems and they have quite a following in the hi end market. Some of the Tannoy systems are very very good.
Most of the other hi brands are all direct radiator systems and European manufacturers dominate this area and some of them are much more expensive than the JBL gear. You have to recognise that collectively there is still a lot of R & D going into that side of the industry and that its only been with the introduction of Be in the K2 9800 that JBL re emerged as a hi end player against the all direct radiator systems. I saw very little in the way of older JBL systems with maybe a 9500 S/H in some dealers.
There is also a trend towards the hi boy or tower profile of loudspeaker because of space and waf. Lots of hi end brands are moving to this trend and I suspect JBL wants to hold its presence in that area with K2 S99000 as well has have its flagship the Everest.
Some dealers had a floor almost entirely for demonstration of the Everest.
No subwoofer to be found.
so if there where no sub around the dealers room who are the guys that sell the product
they probably think thy are just fine as thy are specially when thy are selling other systems with higher prices
one thing is too see the specs of an anechoic measurement and another is what happens when the actual speaker is in a certain room
of course jbl can build a system that gos all the way down to infra world
the questions is way they did not do this
one of the answers might be that the Everest has a lot more opportunity to sound good in many different types of rooms with this configuration than one that goes down too infra world
how many of the guys in hi fi hi end etc etc have an parametric EQ and the measurement chops and equipment to adjust the room gain
most of the people in hi end are against eq
sorry for the typos :blink:
Hi Valentin,
That is a good point but I think it comes down to what a particular market or in fact customer deems necessary after hearing a particular system.
I mean you can argue the case as we see above of a sub being necessary for any system if you want. Hearing a true hi end system of the calibre is the real measure of what is or isn't required.
JBL have gone to great lengths to create a particular bass quality with these systems that just has to be heard.
The Everest manual covers most of your questions quite intuitively
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...0(English).pdf
Quote:
The surrounding environment for the speakers affects bass quality. Placing
the speakers closer to the wall behind them or to the side walls will result in
an abundance of bass, but placing them too close will result in dull bass. On
the other hand, too much distance will reduce the bass output but result in
fast and sharp bass. The low-frequency alignment feature enables placing the
speakers near (or even in) a corner without producing an overabundance of
bass. This corner placement allows optimal performance, even in small
rooms. Find the most suitable location by using various source materials.
Everyone is so caught up in the specs of speakers and the price of them.
I happen to use the JBL 2226 for LF duty, most of my favorite and best recorded music has "natural instraments" not electronic garbage which has very little energy below 40hz.
I find that even though the response of the 2226 is limited on the bottom end that it plays well enough for me to enjoy the distortion/compression free sound I enjoy.
I don't need much response below 40hz and with the Edgarhorns I use on the HF section with 1.4"/2" compression drivers I'm pretty much cloning a poor man's Everest system.
I will never have the funds to purchase the Everest Flagship speaker system, so I am doing what is the best alternative available to me. And it does sound good enough for my purposes!
I don't live for specs, I live for the best music reproduction I can achieve within my means using proven crossover designs and quality drivers I can afford.
I would love to have the latest product from JBL, but I live in the real world. And I don't suffer from lack of bass extension with drivers that roll off around 60hz but stay around down to 40hz in a small room.
It's the clarity and distortion free sound that makes it great. JBL's niche market knows that and they are not complaining!!!
The bottom line is JBL's top models are EXTREMELY clean sounding, and that is what you pay for in the end!!!;)
Regards, Ron
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow...0(English).pdf
Quote:
This corner placement allows optimal performance, even in small
rooms.
I find that to be true with the music I listen to, especially when using the TT system, even though I have a pair of SUB1500s connected. I can turn them off and get about the same sound running the custom L212s full range.Quote:
I would love to have the latest product from JBL, but I live in the real world. And I don't suffer from lack of bass extension with drivers that roll off around 60hz but stay around down to 40hz in a small room.
Let me rephrase that: Most of my music has little content under 40hz!
Sometimes I do get the urge to listen to pipe organ music and other musical selections that do go lower. I just add a powered sub for those "once in awhile" occasions!
I get quite a bit of "room gain" using my 2226's that fill most of my needs for pleasureable listening.
My next project will include JBL 2240 in 4 cu ft tuned to 40hz that is estimated to be -3db down at 60hz and -10db down at 39hz. I'm betting the room gain will restore enough LF energy to play down to 45hz with no problems. My 2226 systems are -3db at 50hz and still play down low enough for a 4 string bass to be heard clearly.
But I "DO" understand some folks need more bottom end LF response than I do! So I must be in the minority of the audiophile group.
Regards, Ron
There are some nice additions to the K2 S9900 technical thread. Be certain to look them over. The material is absolutely brilliant.
A big thanks goes out to Techbot. ;) (You know who you are.)
Hmm I am using a Krell fpb 700cx on my S9800. I have no problems at all..
The Fpb 700 is measured to over 900W at 8ohms and 1600w at 4ohms.
And i use ALL of it, with no problems at all. :applaud::barf:
But of course if the amp is clipping.?? not quite the speakers fault. ;)
Just had to replay even if it is a long time ago :-)
I really do not think that my Parasound JC1 can clip...
And clipping is the reason for burning a resistor or two ? Do not think so.....:bouncy:
:blink:Quote:
I really do not think that my Parasound JC1 can clip...
:spin::spin: PLEASE STOP
You ask many questions that I can not answer. The JC-1 is a very powerful amplifier (800W into 4 ohms) rated and will burn resistors or even loudspeakers, if they are not able to stand the power. It is difficult to 'clip' the JC-1 because it has such large output swing, AND it has almost unlimited peak current. Just look at the peak power rating in the 'Stereophile' JC-1 review.
I do not use the JC-1 to drive my WATTS, because it is too powerful for them, and I cannot afford to break them accidently. They are primarily designed for powerful home theater systems and large electrostatic speakers and they do well in this mode.
Who did say this ??????? :blink:
Check out the next tread.....
Check it out here : http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid...sound-jc1.html
No I still do NOT think it was becouse my JC1's did clip Valentine :blink:
:frantic::frantic::lol_fit:
sorry you are probably right
shure :blink:Quote:
I really do not think that my Parasound JC1 can clip...
I thought it best to place a few items regarding actual K2 S9900 listening experience here, just in case someone looks for more on these sublime loudspeakers. After all, this may be the last, great Northridge designed and built product in the Lansing Heritage. I know I've been visually impressed with the new K2s on my visits to Northridge, and I've been in awe of the assembly and driver manufacturing.
Anyway, at the California Audio Show in the Design Interactions room, Widget and Co. held forth with a day-long Everest II, 1400 Array, and Revel Ultima 2 Salon demo, until we prevailed on them for the K2 to get a shot after hours.
I wrote:
andQuote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
Ian Mac was there (hey Ian! :wave:) and it's always a pleasure to spend time with such an affable and fun gentleman. :cheers:
He wrote:
andQuote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
My reply:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Titanium Dome
So there you have it. Of Lansing Heritage members, only a small number (not counting Mr. Widget) were present when the K2 S9900s were briefly fired up.
Bo
Ian
Dave
Doug
If Bo or Grumpy have anything to add, of course it would be welcome, as they were among the lucky few to actually hear them in this after hours treat.
Ah, there's this exchange between 4313B and Grumpy, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4313B
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy
Hello Loffen, I read this post, and then the thread at diyaudio, and have something to add to what may have happened to your speakers.
Although your JC-1 may not have been driven into clipping, and probably wasn't, the Parasound HALO JC-1 is capable of putting out and delivering 135 amperes of PEAK CURRENT! So, even though you weren't overdriving the amplifier, it did put out a massive amount of current, which exceeded what the resistors you burned up were capable of handling.
The Parasound HALO JC-1 is a massive amplifier, well made, and the HALO amps have massive power transformers, enormous amounts of filter storage capacitance, and lots of high current output devices. The HALO amps, especially the JC-1, are designed to produce high output current, and you, even though not overdriving the amp, exceeded the safe limits of certain components in your speakers.
But you have great taste in amplifiers as the HALO JC-1 is an incredible amp. However, with the Parasound HALO JC-1 output rating of 135 amperes@8ohms, it is an amp to be careful with. You did NOT clip or overdrive the JC-1, you exceeded the current carrying capability of the resistors in the passive networks. Which is why Mr. Greg Timbers offered to send you heavier duty resistors that CAN handle the current you will put through them.
Minor point: 135A@8 ohms? :eek: That's over 1000V :D
135A peak? OK, I'll buy that... -very- briefly, at maybe <0.1 ohms.
Make sure to clean up the arcing from the connector after trying that :)
To say that it will behave as a true voltage source down to
very low impedance (it -is- rated at 1200W@2 ohms) is still
saying a lot. That it can continue to output relatively obscene
power levels when other home equipment would fail or shut down,
is a potential that doesn't give you a clue that the load could be
internally melting (with that "load" being designed with a certain
peak/crest/avg duty cycle expectation that was apparently exceeded).
-dave/grumpy
Re: K2-S9900, on my short list (regardless of $ or "type").
Dave, it is rated 135amps@8ohms PEAK so yes your correct, I forgot to add that. But, some things can't stand even momentary bursts like that, IF high enough I am sure your aware.
The HALO JC-1 is still a massive amp, by any standards.
just not into 8 ohms ( -that- was my minor point... it would need a 1000+v power supply ) ...
the rest looks all good to me :)
Yes, indeedy! :)
With all this focus on amps, what would you drive a pair of K2S9900s with? This is an open question for anyone, not just those dragging out the Parasound story. :eek: :rotfl:
Widget would likely say Levinson or Pass, and Ian would probably say Pass as well, but they can of course speak for themselves on this issue.
There's the old joke about the guy who asks a Texan how much it costs to drive his Rolls Royce (or some other car), and the Texan replies, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."
Well, I'm asking anyway. I doubt that I would be able to get a current Levinson, Pass, or other $$$$$ in addition to a $$$$$ pre, $$$$$ source, and K2s at the same time. OTOH, a Soundcraftsmen from 1990 isn't going to cut it either. There are a lot of pro amps that could handle the job, but NO ONE drives this kind of gear with a pro amp.
Maybe a Synthesis or two (bridged), or one of the new ATI Balanced models (or a derivative like Theta)? If you were limited to staying under $3-4k, what would you be looking at?
Maybe the Parasound amps could be for you! They make several models, and they are really good, and they don't cost what a Levinson or Pass Labs cost. And besides the HALO series, they have the NEW CLASSIC line, offering big bang foir the buck, good performance, and relatively economical cost.
But even the HALO series represents GREAT value and lots of great amp, for less than what comparable brands models cost. I did go to hear the HALO amps, and i will say, they sound terrific, and are attractively priced compared to other brands that have the same power models, and in the same class range.
Agreed Scott,
great value there ,not here though :( Dont forget to trick out the resistor package first......:) Anyway , $ 3-4 k -I'd be off to Reno hifi :D
Or Bryston ofcourse !
Rich
I don't have any Citation gear of that vintage, but I do have the 5.0 and 5.1. Right now I'm using the 5.0 as the analog stereo pre for the DX-1/XPL200 set up. The 5.1 amp (and the slightly earlier Fosgate Audionics 4125, 4200, etc.) are four-channel units, bridgeable to two channels and built like tanks. I never could figure out where they were built: ATI, Madrigal, or ????. :dont-know:
I guess if someone had a big stable of amps and access to the K2 S9900, it would be quite a party trying them all! :dancin:
Then there's the whole pre thing. That's a lot to consider as well. After being at the CAAS, there's sure a lot of interesting and sometimes bizarre gear out there just to drive some speakers. I wonder what gems might be lying undiscovered that are already in someone's garage or basement, like that Citation 5.0.
I boxed it up long ago with the intent of selling it, but it never happened. When the DX-1 arrived, I thought about what pre I would use, and oddly the 5.0 came to mind. I never used it as a two-channel pre before; it was always used in surround, but then its older Dolby and DTS modes were surpassed, obsolete, and I got newer gear.
I can now state that the 2.0 section is not obsolete, and thanks to Jim Fosgate and others for being so committed to excellence in the two-channel implementation.
Wonder how that would sound with the K2s?
Ah, so many questions--questions we all hope to be lucky enough to answer some day.
I think at that level you need to mate the amps to the loudspeakers.
Being hard dome pistonic (Mg) which is freaking accurate I doubt if bipolar push pull (conventional) amps would be appropriate unless biased heavily into class A.
I have a Passlabs X250.5 and that sounds detailed and very smooth on my two way system using a Tad 4001 on the Emilar EH500 (+-2 db from 500 - 20,000 hz). Nothing escapes the detail and ruthless accuracy of Be and I would not use anything less as an amp.
This amp uses complementry power fets and SE baised for the first watt, then biased for push pull class (super symmetry) up to about 35 watts and then works push pull out to 250 watts into 8 ohms and 500 into 4 ohms.
I will in future drive the horn with an Passlabs AX30.5 as used at the show for the Everest 11 horns. It was magic. These amps have high constant bias, almost infinite current drive and they are quite affordable from RenoHifi.
The older Citation amps were excellent in the bass, but like many amps of that era they were is bit greasy (as in glare) in the upper mid range and top end. Amps in general have improve significantly in the past decade.