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I like things that are simple - like 2-way systems that have large woofers and compression drivers.
Anyway, would it be advisable to build a pair of two-way systems comprised of 2245H - 18" woofers and 2445(h) 2" large format compression drivers crossed at 500?
I suppose my concern is that the woofer would not play well up to the 500 cross.
Two ways are always a compromise because it is difficult to find drivers that do well at both ends of the extremes and in the woofers case also do a good job high enough into the midrange. I also wouldn't run a compression driver that low but that's just me. I would go with something like a smaller 2 way with a 12" woofer a compression driver. Maybe a 1" driver which normally do better up top and use a sub to bring in the lowest 1 1/2 octaves.
Rob:)
...and that is a very good mantra especially in audio.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
Now this sounds like a very, very bad idea to me... that is unless you like this type of sound but with a rolled off top end.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
[quote=Mr. Widget;230900]...and that is a very good mantra especially in audio.
What? Isn't an active 4 way system simple?:bouncy:
Isn't it common JBL terminology to talk of an augmented two-way?Quote:
... 4 way system ...
____________
Peter :)
yup, but probably not with a 2245.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoerninger
It depends on the horn/waveguide for the 2445 to what freqency the woofer has to operate.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
You know, when measuring a driver's impedance you can clearly hear even an 18" woofer reproducing 10KHz... that doesn't mean you want to use one that high in an actual music reproduction system. The 2245 works very well to 150Hz or so, and pretty well to 300Hz, but at 500Hz not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
For you to get very good results from the 2445 at 500Hz you need a very large horn... the 2360 comes to mind.
Widget
So, what mid-range driver would you put between the 2245 and the 2445?
I built a couple of systems using 12 inch 2206 drivers and they are outstanding.
So what's stopping you now??Quote:
I built a couple of systems using 12 inch 2206 drivers and they are outstanding.
Rob:)
OK, so if a two unit system comprised of an 18" 2245 and a 2445 will not work since the woofer will not play well to 500 and the compression driver will roll off above 10K, what are my options?
What about a 3-way system with these:
Low = 2245
Mid = 2206
High = 2425 ?
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
surely the 18" will operate up to ~500Hz. The 18" is only 20% larger. If a 15" can do well up to ~1kHz the 18" will in linear proportion do well to 800Hz. The other way round the 18" will do as good at 500Hz as a 15" does at 600Hz. From the papers the 2245 compares to the 2226 just like that. Would people tell that the 2226 is a definite no go at 600Hz?
The other point is the 2445 at 500Hz. You would need a full size horn like 2360. Every JBL biradial horn acclaims it's provenience at 10kHz. Whether or not some level above that is provided depends on equalizing. I've got the 2352s with 2447. The ribbed diaphragm is changed to that of a 2445, plain surface. No nasty spikes as with the original one, so equalization could help it up to ~16kHz. Judged by subjective listening impressions it's absolutely o/k. And of course much better than 30kHz something hi fi tweeties.
ps: as JBL wrote in an older paper, HF extention does by the most depend on the horn, not on the driver! Anyway, 2/3-way, the horn, if any does make the sound.
good luck
Apparently you haven't listened to a 2245H at 500hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
Can produce output at 500hz is not the same thing as sounds good at 500hz.
You need to look at the area of the cone, and it's 44% larger.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
That will work. What about horns?? That's a key issue that you would need to work out.Quote:
Low = 2245
Mid = 2206
High = 2425 ?
You need to actually listen to some of these drivers. A 2235 sounds fine in a 4430 but when used with a 10" midrange like the 2122,2123 the combinations sounds even better only using the 2235 up to about 300Hz or so.Quote:
Hi,
surely the 18" will operate up to ~500Hz. The 18" is only 20% larger. If a 15" can do well up to ~1kHz the 18" will in linear proportion do well to 800Hz.
All of the JBL horns have a difraction slot that determines the directivity in the last octave. The larger the gap the less control so with 1" drivers you generally get better results above 10K or so. It's not just the EQ it's the physical dimension of the gap as well.Quote:
Every JBL biradial horn acclaims it's provenience at 10kHz. Whether or not some level above that is provided depends on equalizing.
Rob:)
Considering the linear dimension of the cone it will radiate up to about 270 Hz without divergence.
For frequencies well above it depends very much on the manufacturer how he can control the behavior of the cone and the distribution pattern. And +44% area is a lot.
____________
Peter
For sure I knew that my very special wisdom will arouse furious antagonism by common wisdom. I gave the hint that the papers on 2226/2245 would fortify my thoughts. Audio is in the end about facts. If You don't care, what shalls?Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebake
Special wisdom? Do you mean "special purpose"?;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
Wait a minute; Romy, is that you?
Anyhows, mini, back to facts; you've heard the 2245H at 500 hz? That would be a yes/no question, not a "special wisdom" question.
BTW, the really freaky thing is, that is EXACTLY what my most succesful pickup line from the late 70's was! Amazing!Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
I agree... fact is the 2245 just plain won't sound particularly great at 500Hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
Maybe I missed your meaning again. I realize that English isn't your first language so I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt. As a physicist who enjoys empirical evidence, you can't possibly be saying what it seems you are.
:applaud: :rotfl: :applaud:Quote:
Originally Posted by mikebake
Widget
Hi, You don't miss a thing :D Audio gear can not be judged by subjective listening -tests- as they are common with audio amateurs. The question here is: would a 2245, given an optimized systems justify caveats against its usage up to 500Hz? Audio amateurs regularly fail to provide an "optimized system". The listening experience that for includes a deep impact from imperfections regarding system design, listening setting, involves prejudices and temporal temper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
For simplicity I talk back in form of a question: Did You ever do a so called listening test of 2245 and 2360 with 2445 in an optimized system by yourself? My assumption is 'no'. At least it would have not been optimized :D So, what if I take Your argumentation against You - how do You know that 2245 won't do in that combination? All the talks above are about rough estimations and derivations from common wisdom. When it comes to a special design they all are useless. In that I agree with Your ansatz.
by
No, I haven't done it by myself or with the help of others either. ;) (Sorry cheap shot.) Over the many years of my audio experimenting I have done enough other stupid things including some not too dissimilar from your proposal that I know better than to waste my time on this proposed combination. (I am assuming that a high fidelity playback is the desired result... I suppose if the goal was something other than that, then the combination might possibly make sense.)Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
Then what is the point? Ultimately what sounds good to an individual is the criterion by which the component is judged... I suppose that if one is enamored by shiny red paint and the component features that finish that could be a biasing point, but how well a component measures is ultimately irrelevant to most audio consumers if they are not happy with the actual aural experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
Mini, I am afraid I will cease giving you the benefit of the doubt. I am going to assume you are bored and want to argue for the sake of arguing. Have fun, I am done trying to communicate with you.
Widget
I am sorry, but that is the least intelligent statement I have ever read about the purpose of designing an audio reproduction system. Measurements can be very useful in designing a system, but the goal is to produce an "optimized system" that sounds optimum to human listeners. That is exactly why high fidelity audio reproduction exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
Your statement would only make sense if measuring instruments designed audio playback systems for their own "listening." Anyone with any real world experience has found that systems that measure well rarely sound lifelike to listeners. A nice point to begin a design with, but a result that does not sound convincing.
I can only conclude after reading all your posts here that you either have no experience listening to really good music reproduction, or you are indeed an argumentative troll. Either way, please learn to tell the difference between what measures well and what sounds good, or stop posting such nonsense here.
Everything you have said so far has only proved your ignorance, and repeating it will only reinforce that perception.
Maybe this will help with the language barrier. No one is saying you are stupid. Ignorance, on the other hand, means lack of knowledge, not knowing something. It works like this:
1)Information is not knowledge
2)Knowledge is not wisdom
I am sure one of our other German speaking members can translate that for you.
Clark
So, You miss Yor own requirement regarding qualified judgement in this case. You personally have no aural experience with the 2245 within a 2-way system comprising the given components.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
A designer obviously can't lend an ear to a new system, before it's build up. To some degree his has to justify his decissions by raw data rather than to treat himself with the precious hardware in spe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
Sorry. I would say to the OPs query:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Widget
"Give it a try - if You could afford a full size horn for the 2445! Listen Yourself when finished, as it's up to You in the end."
Mr. Widget, we are pretty close in that, aren't we? Listening to the build up system will help a lot. May be it's the only possibility to assess the design.
With compliments :)
Haven't you been reading Zilch's adventures?Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
LE14H-x and a 2452H-SL on a waveguide of your choice.
Done.
If all you have are some 2245H's and 2445H's laying around then just bolt them all together and see what happens. They couldn't be much worse than some of the other things I've seen here. Do what Zilch does, put the 2245H's in some 4645 boxes, lay the 2445H's on top and give the mess a listen. Then give everyone here a thumbs up or thumbs down report. It's pretty much that simple.
Mini-Me,
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2245h.htm
While on paper it may appear to operate up to 2 khertz this is a bit of a one dimensional view of the driver performance in actual use.
This woofer is designed for sub woofer applications and if you care to read those recommendations usage above 80 hertz is not recommended.
I would therefore ask why use this driver in a condition that it was not designed for when there are far better alternatives.
I have heard this woofer operating at 500 hertz crossing over to a mid cone and I prefer a lower crossover point as do most people you use this driver.
To speculate about the use of a horn down to 500 hertz which is at the practual bottom limit of most large format drivers and horns and run a large woofer up to beyond its optimum crossover point is not the most brilliant way of getting the best result even for SR applications.
I would suggest your time is better spent over on AK as your vocation here based on recent behavours is not remotely useful to this audience.
Please spend some time reading over in the JBL Library to familiarise yourself with the Lansing Heritage before contining with any further half baked debates about everything you know nothing much about.
Your attitude only serves to insult those who enjoy visting this site.
No, actually its about the music, its not about facts ...Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
"Facts" aren't listening or buying much gear these days!
As famous composer and music critic Peter Shickele says
"If it sounds good, it IS good!
Unlike yourself he is a proven knowledgable fellow ...
Shickele links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Schickele
http://www.schickele.com/
http://www.metafilter.com/63136/Schickele-Mix-RIP
And many many others ...
What joy have you brought YOUR would-be audience, Migi?
You've merely proven you are indeed an argumentative troll -
please go somewhere else where you and your cat are appreciated ....
http://www.spectrumaudio.com/2370A.htm
I have a couple of these horns that I could use with the 2425.
So the sytem would be this:
Low = 2245
Mid/low = 2206
High = 2425
Horn = 2370a
Isn't it 800Hz? And, what do You take into account when estimating to what a frequency a driver could/should be used?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
It seems to me that the 2245 have to be used obligatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
That's not the setting discussed here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
I think the point is: You ran out of arguments and start personal flaming to prevent from thinking over Your familiarized system of beliefs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Mackenzie
My attitude is in no way insulting. My only crime is, I gave a suggestion You didn't assent. :blink:
I believe this says it all for me. Even if his info is correct or his ideas "new" can't get by the 'tude. Enough don't feed the trolls!Quote:
What joy have you brought YOUR would-be audience, Migi?
Mark
Do You really think that judging music as music - that is what Mr Shickele is talking about - is the same as judging an audio system for accuracy? Because both should be done by listening?Quote:
Originally Posted by hjames
What is an "argumentative troll"?
Thank You.
OK, what about this system?
http://www.spectrumaudio.com/2370A.htm
I have a couple of these horns that I could use with the 2425.
So the system would be this:
Low = 2245
Mid/low = 2206
High = 2425
Horn = 2370a
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ser_online.gif http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ons/report.gif http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...c/progress.gif http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ttons/edit.gif
In this constellation common practice was to use the 2245 as a sub. Using both, the 2245 and the 2206 in parallel at different locations within the room would prevent a bit from room modes etc. To use seperate cabintes would also bettern transportability. A 3-way of this design would be a little bit crude, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
Do it, it will be fun. I have almost the same.:)Quote:
OK, what about this system?
Low = 2245
Mid/low = 2206
High = 2425
Horn = 2370a
Other members have used this model as a starting point:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/SR-...es/SR4702X.pdf
That and the 2245's as subs could be interesting.
Network would need design changes.
Have fun with it.
I actually MADE a set of boxes like this discussion for a small alternative dance club and the requirements were:
Need it by Saturday ( this was wed afternoon )
Big and in your face
Stupid loud
Poof Proof
Standard components
No vocal use ( boom boom hiss hiss )
So a big pair of cabinets were made with a 2240, 2380 / 2445 in each.
2360's were not introduced yet or they would of been used.
Yes they worked, Yes they were loud, Yes the criticallisteningareainthemidrange was crap but who cared.
In the end everybody ( including my backrent bill ) were satisfied and they were in use for years.
Moral of the story, none.
If it works for you, gofer it otherwise woodchuck it
'sehen sub
ps - DUDE get a thesaurus
:rotfl: I do get a kick out of these threads though where someone asks what to do with a bunch of parts laying around.Quote:
Originally Posted by subwoof
Well... sometimes... sometimes they just get irritating. :p
hello!Quote:
Originally Posted by robertbartsch
it would be nice i bet! i love the 2206.
the subbass is a (imho! imho!) very important part in reproduction, and its to be taken serious, to get it right.
IF you are open to a little more complicated ways, then make 2way-satellites with the 2206 and the horn, and 2 separate subs (far < 12o Hz), so you can place the subs anywhere in the room where they work best (roommodes, have to find out where they lurk..). important would be to get the delay between the satellites and the subs right, for that you would need something digital (i use a digital active XO) and separate amps.
--just ideas!
cheers,
hope you have fun!!
mikey
Oh YAH!Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
Like THAT's a rational comparison of drivers.... :p
This whole deal is stupid. Are we still trying to squeeze a PE 17.4" wide horn into a 15" wide hole?
When I get a few spare minutes, I'm gonna retrace this entire scenario; I suspect Romy is not the entire issue here, and perhaps not the primary one, even.
Now we're gonna use 2370A with HF comp? Not in MY experience and have it sound worth a whit, for sure. I admit not having built up the "improved" filter posted in this forum and actually listened to it, though I herewith threaten to actually do that.
That's the probem I have with this seemingly endless chain of threads. As others have suggested, at a certain point, the rubber's gotta hit the road; either that or the protagonist does.
Just friggin' DO it! :banghead:
For such an exceptional intellectual persona, that is a very stupid question. :bs:Quote:
Originally Posted by mini
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
If you aren't the flatulent cat, you can entertain yourself here: http://www.goodsoundclub.com/ :barf:
My 2370a horns originally came with an SL JBL cabinent with 2225H drivers and the horns were used with the HF compression driver - 2426H. I removed these components, to install them in a furniture grade cabinet and I changed the 2370 factory horns to accomidate the more narrow new cabinet.
Anyway, is there a reason to not use the 2370 horns with the 2225H drivers, a 2206H mid/low and a 2245h in a single cabinet?
Well maybe? Have you listened to them?? Some people actually like them and you might be one of them. If you add a compensation cap that brings up the last two octaves and flatten things out.Quote:
wrong horn?
Me I am with 4313 as far as using a 2344 or perhaps a 2342 as I think they sound better. If you already have the 2370's try them out first. It's not like you can't change the horn down the road but you would also have to change the crossover as well though so keep that in mind.
Rob:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robh3606
When I was going to use the 2370/2425s in my four surround speakers, I developed these through many hours of trial and error and listening and Behringering. You would want to adjust the Zobal network to the woofer you intend to use.
The shown compensation actually worked better for the 2370 than the P-audio horn. Ultimately, Linda preferred the aesthetics of the P-audio horns mounted within the cabinets, rather than the 2370s hanging under the cabinets even though this reduced the cabinet volume hurt the bass response.
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eima...alin/2-way.jpg
http://www.largescaleonline.com/eima...index_0101.jpg
Yeh, I listened to the JBL 2370 horn for a few months in my basement when it was in factory trim in front of a 2426 compression driver with a 2226 woofer in carpet covered factory trap cabs.
The HF response was a tad bright at the high end, so when I installed the components in the furniture cabs, I added a 2405 slot crossed at 7K and I used a different deeper but more heavy narrow aftermarket plastic horn. This configuartion completely changed the system performance.
Anyway, if I go with a 2245, 2206, 2425 and the 2370 horn, I suppose I could add a tweeter later...