Just scored a pair of Model 19s

Long-time lurker first-time poster finally scored :dancin: a pair of Model 19s (416-8B woofers). Operationally fine, a little scuffed in places but I am already itching to figure out how to "improve them."

I have read in various threads over the years about Iconic Xovers and SuperXovers but there is limited info/pricing on their website.

I have also read about dampening the horns (or cutting out the web, or changing the crossover frequency, etc, etc).

What have you done to make your Model 19s sound their best?
Any and all advice welcome!

disclosure: also posted on AA.

...had a pair of these for 30 years.

...Improvment would be to add a HF tweeter like the 077, 2504, and 3-way crossover.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by travisty

Long-time lurker first-time poster finally scored :dancin: a pair of Model 19s...

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Welcome and congratulations!

Nothing wrong with them that a tweeter, sub and some midrange work can't fix.:rotfl:

Enjoy the journey! I hope you bring us along with you.


Widget

PS: Love your avatar... the Jadis Eurythmie is an all time favorite of mine.

:blink:

Thanks rb & Mr. Widget.

Actually first need to make some bases because they came without (eek!); can anyone tell me how tall they should be? Or take a photo (or point me to one) of the underside of one of these?

If anyone else has thoughts, please jump in. I'm sure I'll try a lot of things as long as what I try can be reversed.

P.S. - Mr. W - I love the Eurythmies too... nothing like a big midrange FLH and really deep bass...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by travisty

:blink:

Thanks rb & Mr. Widget.

Actually first need to make some bases because they came without (eek!); can anyone tell me how tall they should be? Or take a photo (or point me to one) of the underside of one of these?

If anyone else has thoughts, please jump in. I'm sure I'll try a lot of things as long as what I try can be reversed.

P.S. - Mr. W - I love the Eurythmies too... nothing like a big midrange FLH and really deep bass...

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Don't do anything, but play them and assess your hearing experience. They are very sensitive, very few watts(10) can drive them. What components are you using with them? Do you have any tube amps, preamps? How loud do you like to listen. I have had mine for two years. Started with solid state and I now use a Dynaco ST70 amp(35 watts per channel) with a Bez 6sn7 tube preamp. The tubes may smooth out the ringing(if you actually hear any) Also, they need a room of 15 by 20 with enough furniture,rugs and wall treatments to not create an echo chamber. For more oomph, a larger amp will give you better bass and bi-amping with a tube amp on top may be the ultimate ticket. I haven't gotten there yet, but is in the long term plans. Just buy good vintage stuff and if you don't like it, sell it on Ebay and try something else(it usually retains its' value). That's the norm around here. Good luck.

JBL Raiser,
I am not expecting to do anything too quickly, just trying to collect all the info I can and based on that perhaps start collecting parts. I am in Japan so any parts will take some time to gather...

System Info:
Amp to start is a 13W EAR 859 (EL519 tube integrated). Hadn't thought about bi-amping yet. Yamaha PX-2 TT, Sony SCD777. If room interactions are a problem, after treatments, I may try to add in a modded Behringer DEQ2496.

Listening Habits:
I like to listen to all kinds of music (30s-70s jazz, orchestral works, chamber music, solo piano & cello, rock, flamenco, fado, well-done hiphop, etc), quiet to loud, depending on mood, neighbors, company, kids awake or not. Imagine this system will be on the quiet side most of the time.

Room info:
These will be in a second system, starting in a room which may j-u-s-t squeek over that 15x20 size, but if so j-u-s-t. Luckily, the initial room is a bit tall, and slightly vaulted, and half the wall behind the listener opens up to a bigger room. Unluckily, it is starting as an echo chamber - wood floors, hard walls, wood-panelled vaulted ceiling, but I will be making some tube traps for the corners, will have carpets on the floor, a bunch of soft furniture I hope, and hangings on the walls if I can get away with it.

Wow, bared more than I thought :wave:

Known upgrade:

Replace the HF drivers with BMS 4550 or 4552nd plus L-Pads for smoother and more extended VHF.... :yes:

I've had my 19's going on two years and I've heard them sound 30 or 40 different ways by changing associated equipment and tinkering with them.

I had GPA put in new diaphrams and remag the 802G's when I first got the speakers because one diaphram was screwed up.

So far the "best sound" to me is stock 19's with added high efficiency tweeters (EVT350's) crossed over at 27KHZ at 6db/octave and no alteration to the original xover except new caps and lower resistance woofer inductors. But I have yet to switch back the original big woofer inductors to see what I think about that change.

The T350's themselves aren't extending the response by much but there's a huge gain in transparency and detail with them.
And yes, I did say 27,000 HZ xover.
With this xover I guess the tweeters are more of a fill in to the dropping response of the 802G's and then 4db of treble boost at 20KHZ with my Mac C-22 preamp gives me some added lift and extension as well.

The blend is seemless to me and you can't tell by listening that there's a tweeter sitting on top of each cabinet unless you look.

I bought aftermarket 811 foam surrounds and they did smooth out was was formerly a hard sound but I had to bevel the left and right of the foam inserts because it was too thick near the edges of the 811 horn and the center image suffered dearly.
I have no real urge to cut the welds on the horns or dampen them because I just don't hear a problem. The 811's are bolted to the cabinet in six places, unlike floating ones.
Maybe that makes a difference but I'm happy with what I have.

These speakers are very sensitive, especially with the added tweeters, to equipment changes.
I use a Mac 225 amp at 25 watts per channel and I have more than enough power.
I recently tried a Scott 299A integrated amp at 15 watts per channel and that was enough power too.

The big shock was when I hooked up a 200 watt per channel transistor amp and the bass went away so I don't subscribe to the notion that more power automatically equals more bass.

I'm not using any bass boost right now and I think the bass is fine as is. My listening room is 12 X 12 with slanted front and back ceiling and the speakers are about 6 feet a part under a slanted ceiling. (second floor of 1 1/2 story house)

I have the speakers towed in so that the "sweet spot" isn't very wide but I'm the only one that listens and seating isn't an issue.
The imaging is fantastic and mono signals are dead center making each speaker disappear and sounding like a speaker in the center.

You can go the route of cabinet bracing, bi-amping, etc, etc but to me you've now strayed away from the Model 19 sound.
One could argue that added tweeters did too but I still have what you can call stock 19's with more sparkle that I need to be happy with them and removing one wire per channel defeats the tweeters for an easy comparison.

Just tonight I was yet again shocked by the 19's sensitivity to associated equipment changes.
I was using a belt drive Thorens TD 125 Mark 2 turntable with an SME 3009 S2 Improved arm and Myabi MC Cartridge.
The sound was very smooth and relaxing but I found my head wasn't bodding back and forth and my feet weren't tapping when I was listening to music so the involvement wasn't there. I also had to use 4 db of bass boost.

I then switched back to a rim drive Thorens TD124 Mark 2 with the same arm and cartridge and the difference was less than subtle.
No more bass boost required and the increased impact and clarity got my head and feet moving again.

So it only took 40 years to come up with a total system that I like and the 19's were a big part of ending the quest.

A couple years ago I added a dbx model 120a subharmonic synthesizer into my system and it added a new dimension to the bass notes produced through the Model 19's. If you like to play your music at high volume AND like to feel the bass notes with your chest, I'd suggest giving either this piece of equipment or a later model a try.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by miamidan

If you like to play your music at high volume AND like to feel the bass notes with your chest, I'd suggest giving either this piece of equipment or a later model a try.

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Since the 416 woofers are xmax limited, I think it is safe to say that no amount of electronic coaxing will make them reproduce 25Hz at high SPLs, but I would be curious as to how they sound. I don't suppose you've made any measurements of swept low frequencies or the like?


Widget

no, Widget, I'm not that much of a techie. :) To my ear, though, the use of the dbx unit gives the low end of the 19's a fuller sound and a more powerful kick for rock and roll. The unit has a control that allows the user to regulate the amount of bass synth or to completely take the unit out of the loop. I use it to varying degrees with different types of music and don't use it at all when playing tunes with particularly strong low ends.

See if Paul Coats will mod your crossover. Do a search. No need to get crazy, just refresh the crossover.