Greg Timbers & DIY

[4313B]

During the long redeye flight home I thought of where to put this post. I think I know where the final version will go but that could take months; What to do until then?

...In retrospect I probably should have brought the Canon SLR and a tripod instead of the unfamiliar HP R707 and my two hands. Oh well, the purpose was to talk with Greg and to listen to his DIY loudspeakers, in that order of personal importance to me. The photo really was ad hoc...

...What to do when a picture might not appear to be worth a thousand words? When a picture fails to convey the story of the subject?...

[johnaec]

Very Cool!:applaud: Can you clue us in on any of the details?

Will you be able to fill us in the rest of your trip sometime? (Breathlessly waiting to hear what's news!) :) 'Looks like a really great time!

John

[4313B]

Very Cool!:applaud: Can you clue us in on any of the details?Hi John,

Each of the four stacks consists of the 1500AL, the 1200FE, and prototype Array horns with 435Be and 045Be compression drivers bolted onto them (two stacks as shown in the picture and two behind me in the back corners of the living room). The center channel is the 880 Array prototype.

I believe the intent was to prove that compression drivers were viable for use in high performance loudspeaker systems designed for home high-fidelity applications. That intent has been realized in an undeniably splendid fashion.

The sonic signature of this system, with or without subs, in two channel and in surround is nothing short of stunningly spectacular. I kid you not. I'm not one for being gun shy. If the system had problems I'd say so. When I sit here now looking at the picture in the first post and try to correlate it with what I heard I'm frustrated with the picture's inadequacy.

What do you see when you look at this picture?

A nice stereo system.

Does it tell you anything?

It tells me someone has a really nice stereo system.

The sound is effortless - powerful, dynamic, smooth, detailed. No resonances. No smearing. No distortion. No pain. You see horns and know there are compression drivers bolted to them. You don't hear horns with compression drivers bolted to them. Not in any traditional sense. It's a paradox.

[4313B]

Will you be able to fill us in the rest of your trip sometime? (Breathlessly waiting to hear what's news!) :) 'Looks like a really great time!Don and Steve have some very cool things to share over the coming months. I believe this is going to be a very fun year for the site.

JBL was extremely gracious with respect to this site during the past week and that fact is sincerely appreciated. Don and Steve can elaborate. I'm extremely pleased at how everything worked out over the past week.

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for sharing! That is a very interesting and cool looking setup. I can hear it in my mind... but I'm sure we'll all be a bit envious that we couldn't actually share in the experience.

Next time you talk to GT, please thank him for allowing us a peek into his living room.


Widget

[Steve Gonzales]

Thanks for the teaser Giskard. That picture makes my heart race!! :applaud:

[edgewound]

Giskard,
Thanks for the photo, and thanks to Mr.Timbers for allowing it.

My curiosity is piqued as to the upcoming activity on the forum. Can't wait for Don and Steve's elaborations.

The Array really looks like a must listen.

Maybe a Renaissance is happening within JBL?

[JuniorJBL]

Yes Thank you very much Giskard and G.T. for sharing this awsome systme with us:applaud:

[skeptical1]

Thank You for sharing the pictures with the forum.

The speakers certainly look more than just a part of a nice stereo system. They look stunning, particularly when one knows the quality of the drivers involved.

The guy reflected in the tv looks a little weird though......

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Thanks for the look see. I would love to hear them.

Ken

[Donald]

The best thing JBL could do for me this year is sell a reasonably priced LE14A recone kit.

[4313B]

thanks to Mr.Timbers for allowing it.Definitely! It was a sincerely appreciated gesture. :)
The Array really looks like a must listen.:yes: I think every member of the Array Series is worth a listen.
Maybe a Renaissance is happening within JBL?From past posts I think I've tried to convey that it's always been there. Sure, I've also posted of frustrations as well.
I think it's more the fact that it's had to fight like hell to see the light of day. More so in this day and age than in the past.
The speakers certainly look more than just a part of a nice stereo system.Well try viewing it from the perspective of someone fairly disengaged from the genre. ;)
For instance, a few friends of mine come to mind... they simply don't "get it". :p
They look stunning, particularly when one knows the quality of the drivers involved.Agreed! :) They really do look very nice. They sound unbelievable.
The guy reflected in the tv looks a little weird though......Looks? Sometimes the book is exactly as depicted by the cover.

[Titanium Dome]

Thanks Giskard and Greg Timbers for the look inside. The speakers look great; wish I could hear them. I'll have to settle for written accounts. *sigh*

I was pleased to see what looks like a LaserDisc player prominently displayed, as well as other gear that I see in my own and other LHS members' racks. Also very happy to see a projection screen, but the reflection in the TV screen doesn''t get to the ceiling so I don't know if we're talking LCD, LCOS, DLP or the blessed three-eyed king CRT projector.

In any case, it's nice to see both sight and sound with such a strong presence. Ah, those speakers, though, they're hypnotizing me. :hyp:

Maybe it's time to sell the Performance Series, but, oh my, those Ti inverted domes! :spin:

[johnaec]

Giskard, if you don't mind, could you let us know what G.T.'s preference in electronic components is? Harman and/or Crown stuff? If this seems out of place or interpreted as an endorsement, don't worry about it. But I really am curious about what someone with his caliber of speaker appreciation might be using, and I couldn't recognize anything in the pic. And is he using active or passive crossovers?

John

[jbl4ever]

Looks like a ML3 under the center channel and some tube amps too. Also some lexicon

[JuniorJBL]

Lexicon would be Harmon as well:D

[briang]

Many thanks to Giskard for the photo and to Greg Timbers for the graciousness to allow us a photo of his living room.:)

[spkrman57]

Horn systems are not dead!

Thank God for us horn fans!

Ron

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

[northwood]

:)
Fantastic:applaud:
looks like array so much.
:D
He is a JBl master now.

[4313B]

:)
Fantastic:applaud:
looks like array so much.
:D
He is a JBl master now.
It is actually the inspiration for the Array Series. This is what started it all. ;) This is DIY at its very best. The Array Series wasn't elicited by Marketing or Sales at JBL. The system concept and implementation are by Greg Timbers.

Oh! By the way - please don't get the impression that he's done. :applaud:

[Don C]

His system and mine actually have one component in common. OK it's just the Dish Network 811.

[JBLnsince1959]

A big thank you to Mr. Timbers and Giskard for sharing the photos and info.

Nice to know GT's interest in 4-ways is still there. So when are the DIY plans going to be listed:bouncy:

[northwood]

It is actually the inspiration for the Array Series. This is what started it all. ;) This is DIY at its very best. The Array Series wasn't elicited by Marketing or Sales at JBL. The system concept and implementation are by Greg Timbers.

Oh! By the way - please don't get the impression that he's done. :applaud:
I'm crazy for his work:o:

[JBLnsince1959]

Maybe it's time to sell the Performance Series

NEVER, but they can be improved upon with different boxes and CC crossovers.

That GT System really looks like something to have...

Hey Giskard what were the crossover points, did he say?

[4313B]

Hey Giskard what were the crossover points, did he say?There aren't any. ;)






~ 80 Hz, ~ 800 Hz, ~ 10 kHz
I'm not real sure about the 1200FE to 435BE frequency. That crossover is handled by the DX-1 with cards custom made for this specific system. I think the low pass is something like 24 dB/octave and the high pass is 6 dB/octave and very likely charge coupled based on past conversations. Greg had to manipulate the card to get 24 dB/octave on the low pass. My guess would be maybe as low as 650 Hz. It depends on where that particular prototype horn shuts off. Maybe 750 Hz.

[qxlxp]

i think the aesthetics are better in the GT system than in the commercial version. the "heavier" base better offsets the tall vertical horn.

[Earl K]

Hi Giskard,

Thanks very much for your insights & personal impression of this prototype system .

As much as anything, I'm intrigued by the usage of the 1200Fe .
As a fan of just about any high power 10" made by JBL, I was somewhat taken aback to see their exculsion in favour of a 12" ( but then you offered up your speculation on the crossover points & it then made sense ).

Thanks again <. :)

[DavidF]

Hi Giskard,

Thanks very much for your insights & personal impression of this prototype system .

As much as anything, I'm intrigued by the usage of the 1200Fe .
As a fan of just about any high power 10" made by JBL, I was somewhat taken aback to see their exculsion in favour of a 12" ( but then you offered up your speculation on the crossover points & it then made sense ).

Thanks again <. :)

Could it be, Earl, that the thought is a 12" would be a better FR dispersion match to the horns in the range of cutoff points used in the crossovers? Smoother overall power response. Also, some additional weight and margin for high levels in the low-end power range to match with the not-quite-sub woofer.

DavidF

[JBLnsince1959]

There aren't any.
:jawdrop:

Thanks for the info.. I figured he had it around 10,000 and then somewhere around 700 to 800, it was the lower one that had me wondering...doing it around 80 would really be a nice place for that 12" to work. I'll bet the mid-bass on that puppy is smooth and full. I was wondering if he had it around 80 to 100 or around 250 :blah:

I personaly like 12"ers better than the 10"ers in the 250-300 to 700 range ...just more there...

anyway thanks

I quess we can only dream.......dream hell..I'm saving my money up. "hey Hon...would it be OK if we didn't travel for 2 years?":thnkfast:

[JBLnsince1959]

i think the aesthetics are better in the GT system than in the commercial version. the "heavier" base better offsets the tall vertical horn.

I agree with that..

What really makes me weak in the knees is that I just like the 4 way with the 12" mid-bass plus it has the beryllium horns........Can you imagine how much that would be retail????

[4313B]

As much as anything, I'm intrigued by the usage of the 1200Fe.

then you offered up your speculation on the crossover points & it then made sense

He would have liked a 4-inch coil in the twelve...

As it is they play very well without the subs. When switched on the subs start rolling off around 70 Hz and the twelves start rolling off around 90 Hz to create the proper acoustic crossover around 80 Hz.

Can you imagine how much that would be retail????

I'd have to add it all up and I'm too lazy.

[boputnam]

Each of the four stacks consists of the 1500AL, the 1200FE, and prototype Array horns with 435Be and 045Be compression drivers bolted onto them (two stacks as shown in the picture and two behind me in the back corners of the living room). The center channel is the 880 Array prototype.

The sound is effortless - powerful, dynamic, smooth, detailed. No resonances. No smearing. No distortion. No pain. You see horns and know there are compression drivers bolted to them. You don't hear horns with compression drivers bolted to them. Not in any traditional sense. It's a paradox.

Dood...

So, you got any of the specifics about the signal path - what about preamps, EQ, amps... :yes: :yes: ??

I'd love to know what he loves to have.

[JBLnsince1959]

He would have liked a 4-inch coil in the twelve...



of course...

I'm not up to speed on the 1200Fe, anyone got some information on it?

[hapy._.face]

snip...."hey Hon...would it be OK if we didn't travel for 2 years?"

"hey hon...would it be OK if we didn't EAT for two years?" :)

But seriously, this is what seperates the domestic market from the overseas market.
Think how much you have spent (money AND time) on getting to your current speaker set up. Aside from the knowledge you gained, some might prefer to simply buy what they know is an excellent system from the gate and be done with the whole "journey".

I'm almost at that point. I am exhausting myself on this stuff, and why wouldn't I just fork over the coin and let the experts do it for me? I know I cannot build a better DIY than GT....

[Uncle Paul]

This is the most excitement I've felt for JBL since I fell in love with the brand in the 70's. Their commitment to quality, engineering and art at all pricepoints stuns me.

JBL has always been there producing exceptional products, but this year is really special. It's a renaissance to the days when the quality of sound ruled.

Now if only we had an abundance of quality source material to match...

[skeptical1]

Regarding the bass, I think it is interesting that he used the 1500AL for 80hz down only, when the only thing slightly less than remarkable that I have ever read about the 1500Al , or the K2 S9800, is the perceived lack of output in the very lowest regions. I always assumed that this was strictly due to the design goals for the K2, and that the 1500AL must be as capable as any driver ever made at low bass.

So, how would you describe the bass specifically? And what size box does he have them in? And last, but maybe most importantly, will the 1500AL ever be available from JBL in the U.S?

Sometimes I think a pair of 1500Al's might outperform my Le10H-1'S with my performance series (wink).

[4313B]

Regarding the bass, I think it is interesting that he used the 1500AL for 80hz down only, when the only thing slightly less than remarkable that I have ever read about the 1500Al , or the K2 S9800, is the perceived lack of output in the very lowest regions. I always assumed that this was strictly due to the design goals for the K2, and that the 1500AL must be as capable as any driver ever made at low bass.Bandwidth limiting. The 1500AL is not capable of the same type of response curve when used in the same fashion as say a 2231H or 2235H in something like a 4333B or 4430. We've been over that fact, as well as the use of bandwidth limiting several times before. When used below 60 to 100 Hz it is a capable sub. A1500AL is not a SUB1500 or W1500H. What it does have is superlative articulation and freedom from distortion. Having read different posts on this forum over the past five years I have no doubt that many of you would not find four 1500AL-based subs as inspiring as other sub solutions that have been previously mentioned. And that's fine, it's personal choice. In Greg's living room I didn't hear a ton of loading up going on. The bass was all there and it wasn't at all overpowering. The point is - in my opinion, it fit the room. The two subs in the front are out in the room while the two subs in the back are loaded into the corners. That arrangement in this room seems to be very good at killing off those pesky nodes.

Also, I can't stress enough how good the 12-inch 3-ways sounded without the subs engaged.
will the 1500AL ever be available from JBL in the U.S?Try your favorite JBL Dealer.

Sometimes I think a pair of 1500Al's might outperform my Le10H-1'S with my performance series (wink).I'm thinking probably so...

[JBLnsince1959]

...




Ok, that's got to be the fastest disappearing act from Giskard I've seen yet.

I was reading this thread ( and Giskard wasn't there yet) I get out (and I see he's been on) I click back in the thread - it's blank:blink:

[pasadena]

Wow!!! Thanks Giskard for giving us an inspiring peak into Greg's little secret world.

Will be eagerly waiting for your follow on this and of your trip.

Great work.

Cheers.
Pasadena

[4313B]

Ok, that's got to be the fastest disappearing act from Giskard I've seen yet.

I was reading this thread ( and Giskard wasn't there yet) I get out (and I see he's been on) I click back in the thread - it's blank:blink:It's called staking out the next post slot and then going back and filling it in. ;)

[JBLnsince1959]

It's called staking out the next post slot and then going back and filling it in. ;)

I was wondering about that .....:rotfl:

So much to learn here on the forum....I really like that idea....

[JBLnsince1959]

Wow!!! Thanks Giskard for giving us an inspiring peak into Greg's little secret world.



indeeed....:applaud:

[kingjames]

My Lord what a system and all I wanted was a set of L300's,I posted here because some where in the past I made a remark about the new stuff from JBL and not wanting any part of it.I guess I will have to eat my words here.This system looks stunning to say the least and I can imagine what it sounds like.I don't get this feeling often from just looking at some speakers but there is something about these that just makes me want to get a second and third mortage on my house.Looking at these only confirms what I already knew for years,that JBL is indeed still the best on the planet. So much for the L300's.:applaud:

[Chas]

Absolutely fascinating and very exciting Giskard - thanks from here too.

I am sure there is just a ton of ideas built into these systems, it's great to see G.T.'s years of know-how and experience culminate into a design that hopefully, many can afford.

It just occured to me how clever the idea is for integrating the UHF with the HF horn...outside the box thinking..

[4313B]

Giskard, if you don't mind, could you let us know what G.T.'s preference in electronic components is? Harman and/or Crown stuff? If this seems out of place or interpreted as an endorsement, don't worry about it. But I really am curious about what someone with his caliber of speaker appreciation might be using, and I couldn't recognize anything in the pic. And is he using active or passive crossovers?

John

Dood...

So, you got any of the specifics about the signal path - what about preamps, EQ, amps... :yes: :yes: ??

I'd love to know what he loves to have.1. Rega Planar 25 with Pioneer PC1000 II cartridge
2. Pioneer CLD-D703 Laser Disc Player
3. Harman Kardon CDR 2 CD burner
4. Quicksilver Audio Phono Preamp
5. JVC HR-S5500U SVHS
6. Lexicon RT-20 multi disk transport
7. JBL SPP-SWEQ 1/6 Oct equalizer > four 1500AL's
8. Quicksilver Audio Mono 100 (pair) > front 1200FE's
9. Lexicon MC-12 > four 1500AL's (run as left/right, 2 per channel)
10. Levinson ML-3
11. LG LST-3510A HD Tuner/DVD player
12. Dish Network 810 Satellite Receiver
13. Sony DHG HDD500 HD DVR and HD Tuner
14. Panasonic DMR-T3040 DVD Burner and DVR
15. Quicksilver Audio Silver 90 > 880 Array Center
16. DX1, sitting on top of ML-3 > 700 Hz front channel crossover
17. Mitsubishi WD 52725 RP DLP
18. Marantz VP12S1 DLP Front Projector
19. Stewart 92" Firehawk screen
20. Harman Kardon Signature 1.5 > rear 1200FE's and S9800/435Be's/045Be's
21. Quicksilver Audio M135 (pair) > front S9800/435Be's/045Be's

[johnaec]

Thanks! :)

John

[dieterj]

Dream System,

Big Thanks to Giskard and Mr. Greg Timbers.
:applaud:

[Guido]

First of all thanks very much Giskard and Greg!

But come on guys...

This doesn't look like DIY ;) For me this looks like the new TOTL Array speaker being tested by Greg himself.
No comments needed, just give me a wink ;)

[MJC]

GT is the Man and thanks to you both.
Being that system inspired the Arrays, I think it would be time for JBL to start advertising the Arrays, K2s and PS, just to let the so-called audiophiles know that JBL is THERE!

[Maron Horonzakz]

WHAT? JBL advertize? Word of mouth not good enough? Let the audioplile eat cake & enjoy it too? Nonsence!!!!:p

[MJC]

WHAT? JBL advertize? Word of mouth not good enough? Let the audioplile eat cake & enjoy it too? Nonsence!!!!:p
Some idots just don't get the word. The PS has been advertized, but not in the last 2 years, at least.
What the hell, Harman advertize Lexicons.

[4313B]

I'm not real sure about the 1200FE to 435BE frequency. That crossover is handled by the DX-1 with cards custom made for this specific system. I think the low pass is something like 24 dB/octave and the high pass is 6 dB/octave and very likely charge coupled based on past conversations. Greg had to manipulate the card to get 24 dB/octave on the low pass. My guess would be maybe as low as 650 Hz. It depends on where that particular prototype horn shuts off. Maybe 750 Hz.

As much as anything, I'm intrigued by the usage of the 1200Fe .
As a fan of just about any high power 10" made by JBL, I was somewhat taken aback to see their exculsion in favour of a 12" ( but then you offered up your speculation on the crossover points & it then made sense ).Your guess on the 1200FE X-over was correct. I have it at about 700 Hz which is as low as that horn can comfortably go. As for the use of a 12 instead of a 10" - there are two main reasons. First, the 12" is deeper and will time align properly with the horn module. Second, I wanted to have a stand alone satellite module and the bass performance of the 1200Fe is stellar. None of the 10's can do that.

Greg

[northwood]

Why not show more pics:applaud:

[JBL 4645]

4313B

Delicious :p it would look mega awesome behind a screen with a third matching one as the centre channel can carry just as much sub bass information as the left and rights, or the sub bass LFE.1.

It’s like looking at a three-way system with the left and right and I’m guessing that the two large sub bass speakers on (left and right) are used for (LFE.1 and sub bass management) thou it would be out of this world if there was a third for the (centre matching) and then stick a few more of the larger JBL sub bass speakers (in-between) that are (totally dedicated to LFE.1) that way they want be over taxed with some LFE.1 signals as the LFE.1 is very (unpredictable) at times, some films carry a huge amount and some don’t.

[hjames]

C'mon Ashley - I really think Greg Timbers (aka Mr. JBL designer) knows whats there in each channel of his system.I'm sure he's put the best of the best in each channel of his system, why wouldn't he??
Besides, it wouldn't be a third one, It'd be the 5th, as Giskard said he's got another pair for rear surround use!




4313B

Delicious :p it would look mega awesome behind a screen with a third matching one as the centre channel can carry just as much sub bass information as the left and rights, or the sub bass LFE.1.

It’s like looking at a three-way system with the left and right and I’m guessing that the two large sub bass speakers on (left and right) are used for (LFE.1 and sub bass management) thou it would be out of this world if there was a third for the (centre matching) and then stick a few more of the larger JBL sub bass speakers (in-between) that are (totally dedicated to LFE.1) that way they want be over taxed with some LFE.1 signals as the LFE.1 is very (unpredictable) at times, some films carry a huge amount and some don’t.

[JBL 4645]

Oh bugger! :eek: Sorry I guess I forget which picture that was from, it was the JBL factory tour this year.

Mr. JBL please, please, please Greg accept my humble apologies that was out of order what I said.:o:

Peace and :xmas:

[234STI]

I believe he has updated his processing to the Anthem D2.

[Dr.db]

I can´t tell from the pictures, but are these 1200fe woofers in a vented or enclosed box?

[Titanium Dome]

I can´t tell from the pictures, but are these 1200fe woofers in a vented or enclosed box?

It's only a year later, so sorry for the long delay. I was rereading this thread for some info, then noticed your query. The cabinets are ported on the back. These are heavy beasties, so I carefully turned one slightly sideways to take photo of the rear of the enclosure.

The inner tube diameter is 3.25" and the tube is 7" long.

.

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Dome,

It appears that you, like me, are a believer in super cables. ;)


Widget

PS: I rotated your picture.

[Dr.db]

Thanks a lot for moving these heavy enclosures and taking a picture! :)

[Titanium Dome]

Hi Dome,

It appears that you, like me, are a believer in super cables. ;)


Widget

PS: I rotated your picture.


If the speaker cables can be seen, I'll usually put some beefier gauge stuff in just to placate those who "know better" than I do about the importance of cryogenically aligned, positive mono-directional electron flowscaped, and alpha-braided cables However, if the wires are hidden, 14 AWG is fine on these short runs. In this case they match the cables Greg used inside, minus the JBL "Monster" moniker on the sheath. At one time I bet there were 1000 ft. spools of the stuff at Northridge.

Thanks for the rotation.