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Fangio
03-17-2006, 06:00 AM
Came across this pair of vintage PA today, it was for sale locally, pretty cheap next to nothing. I was driving a wagon from the company and hence able to pick them up immediately, and after a short inspection, I thought I should do it.

Seller was original owner and said he bought them end of 70s or early 80s.. so what could be in these showbags, and which components? Three guesses.. :rolleyes:

More pics to come, when the accus are loaded again. :banghead:

Don C
03-17-2006, 06:12 AM
Something from this page? (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1980-pro/page08.jpg)

Fangio
03-17-2006, 07:55 AM
Something from this page? (http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/catalogs/1980-pro/page08.jpg)
Don't know for sure which model of those would come close.. think they are genuine JBLs at least. The name plate says PA 13075 K, 8 Ohm. There is also a name of a former distributor. :hmm:

edgewound
03-17-2006, 08:01 AM
My guess is an MI-632, although the visible handle is different from the spring loaded original.

Low freq MI-15
High freq 2415H

Or....could be...naw...

edgewound
03-17-2006, 08:04 AM
Don't know for sure which model of those would come close.. think they are genuine JBLs at least. The name plate says PA 13075 K, 8 Ohm. There is also a name of a former distributor. :hmm:

There's lotsa non US models we yankees have no clue even exist. Thanks for the lesson today.

E130(?) and 2402

John
03-17-2006, 11:48 AM
Looks like a pro 030 system???;)

Fangio
03-17-2006, 02:51 PM
The name tells most of the story. Pulled the drivers of one box, and - close, very close Edgewound :) - the woofers are K130s. The specs say thats not a dedicated bass, it goes from 50-6000Hz, more for applications like guitar, piano, organ, vocals. I think that is what these cabs were designed for. Sure these 15" have these huge and much sought-after alnico motors, but they aren't first choice for reconing as 2235s, although it would work, no? And it would be a shame, their condition deserves to be left as is.

The tweeters are really beautiful, 075 signature speakers, and should be alnicos as well. Maybe a specialist for 2-ways :D can chime in, not a perfect one for home use, I would say.

The xovers look, well very rudimental. Not even sure if they are xovers. C30? All I found with a search, was a schematic for C30s from techboot, that is way more complex.

edgewound
03-17-2006, 03:08 PM
Nice find Fangio:applaud: . K130 makes an awesome guitar speaker. Marshall 50 watt sounds KILLER through that...so does Mesa Boogie, Fender, Rivera,etc.,etc.

That also makes a nice keyboard setup or a small club PA.

louped garouv
03-17-2006, 03:37 PM
The tweeters are really beautiful, 075 signature speakers, and should be alnicos as well. Maybe a specialist for 2-ways :D can chime in, not a perfect one for home use, I would say.



I like them for home use above my A7 w/ 802G...

sizzles...

:thmbsup:

Fangio
03-18-2006, 04:40 AM
I like them for home use above my A7 w/ 802G...

sizzles...

:thmbsup:
Hehe, louped garouv, I hooked them up today, and now I have a clue why many find their sound sizzling - I'd call it more polite 'characteristic'. :thmbsup:

To be more precise, I assume 075s can sound wonderfull for home use – as UHF driver though, with another horn for the mids. That is what I will keep them for, and why I thought this 2way may be not optimal for home use, as is.

But I guess I won't have an application for the K130s. Still in need of 15" JBLs with foam surrounds.. :rolleyes:

Mike Caldwell
03-18-2006, 05:36 AM
Hello
The cabinets, grill cloth, chrome metal corners,
the black vinyl covering and even the general cabinet
size all looks like a Fender guitar cabinet.
I wonder if there had been some Fender JBL partnership
for export MI style PA cabinets at one time.
Nice find!


Mike Caldwell

oznob
03-18-2006, 10:24 AM
You can always tell when someone cares for their equipment when, after all these years, they still have the original covers! Those covers alone are worth$$$. I agree with Mike, with that cloth, the tolex and the corners, they really look like Fender cabinets. Sure have some nice guts in them! Is the input a single 1/4" jack or??? Again, GREAT FIND! :applaud:

Guido
03-18-2006, 03:11 PM
Nice Catch!

They look mint mint :applaud:

Please give us pics of he crossover. This for sure can be improved.

Fangio
03-18-2006, 04:41 PM
Is the input a single 1/4" jack or???
Please give us pics of he crossover. This for sure can be improved.
More pics? No prob. :cool:

Zilch
03-18-2006, 04:48 PM
Oh, NICE. Tell us about the party AFTER it's over.

No new crossovers for YOU, buddy!

Nope, nope.... :p

Fangio
03-18-2006, 04:56 PM
with the baffle.
I knew the're some musicians here.. :rockon1:

oznob
03-18-2006, 06:50 PM
Man, those are "BITCHEN" cabs! All that's missing is my SUNN Model T on top of them! Casters are so nice too! Have fun with them! :dancin:

John
03-19-2006, 10:37 AM
Man those are Sweet, It's the 70's all over again.:applaud:

spkrman57
03-19-2006, 11:59 AM
Usually the 075 mounting ring is used behind the baffle board, not in front of it!

Ron

Fangio
03-21-2006, 04:05 AM
Thanks for the compliments, I think I still owe the forum a report how they SOUND.

And man, I was completely wrong with my first impressions. And so was the first tryout in the basement, all was wrong: the amp was too small, bad room acoustics, not even a stereo placement, they stood face to face on opposite walls, and cabeling was quite a provisorium. All they were sounding was LOUD, but it was already clear to everyone who listened there: they could do better.

Now I brought them up to the ground floor, and had new dedicated cables built with appropriate plugs. And then hooked them up in a bigger room, to another icone of the 70's, this one: http://img477.imageshack.us/img477/9483/4400dsc01810sm9ja.jpg

Those who are familiar with the very sophisticated way Saul Marantz was measuring his products, will know that this unit has way more power to offer than the 125W/channel at 8 ohm, that are stated in the specs. ;) Also I used better equipment for input, feeded them with uncompressed material and what I can say is: these babies are KILLER TWO-WAYs!! The alnico 075s and K130s are outstanding transducers, no doubt anymore why they became that famous. They play very nicely together, the system provides a clean, effortless, very warm and musicalic, just gorgeous sound, and for the lows, that cabs easily blow away all other 12" bookshelf JBLs I have.

And of course they can be used in a home HiFi setup. Sure they are not perfect without a little bit EQ'ing, and audiophile highend users would not be satisfied with the frequency curves, linear or flat they aren't for sure. But oh boy, it's the PURE JBL SOUND, and when it comes to some higher SPL, those are absolutely impressing. The higher power these can stand makes the difference. Especially the K130s give me such a deep and effortless bass response - unbelieavable, this is just another league. I can't await the spring, to carry them to some garden parties, or imagine what these could do for a beach disco, just WOW! Also I had two days now to relisten to many of my favorite music, and when it's about bass, I have to say: 15" rulez!! :applaud:

To quote another members signature - „enjoy the journey“: man I do, indeed, and I've made quite a huge step forward. :)

northwood
03-21-2006, 05:22 AM
:blink:

oznob
03-21-2006, 08:31 AM
Hey Fangio, that is one thing that has always impressed me about JBL pro stuff. They were surely made for sound reinforcement but can work just as well in a home environment! I have two old monitors with D140's and a JBL horn, angled cabinets. In between home speakers, I often used them in my living room and didn't feel I was missing out on much of anything except maybe pin-point highs. You are right on the money about those 15's IMHO. There is no substitute for cubic inches! Do enjoy the journey!:applaud:

maro
03-31-2006, 02:31 AM
Hello Fangio!
My name is Maro and I live in Rijeka, Croatia. I also own two pairs of JBL PA 13075 K, so I was very excited when I found this forum and especially when I registered in and saw Your pictures :) . They came to me from my father. He once sang in dancing band until late 80 is. Mine JBL' s are not in so nice condition as yours. I use them nowadays for sound reinforcement of all kind of musicians, mostly acoustic and jazz orchestras, school bands and a cappella singers (known as "klapa" in our country) when they came to perform in my area(Crikvenica riviera). From international artist I worked with Beppe Gambetta(Ita),Woody Man and Trio Mundo (NY,USA) Allegre Corea (Bra) and many others. They were mostly satisfied with the sound of those JBL's. I use them in combination with Ev Sx 100+. Unfortunatly, sometimes I used JBL's for rock bands, so after that jigs I had to repair a voice coils of K130 and once for 075. I was so sad at that time, because my father told me that they lost their clarity comparing back to the days when he used them. Sometimes I think to sell them, but then again I think is better maybe to recone them (repair kit) and give them a new life. From one pair of them, the 075 speakers were stolen :biting: , with the crossover, so I found a pair of used 2404H and made a new crossover, copying the schematics from other pair, but they never sound like the original pair :( . Replacement kit in my country is too expensive, but I found some adress in USA(ebay) with price of 99 $ and maybe this is acceptable price. What do You think is this action wortwille (will I get that original sound once again) or is better to sell them and find some modern-plastic speakers? :banghead: So if You or anyone of the forum people have some time please write, advices are welcome. I would like to attach some pictures of speakers but I do not know how to do this action(I need a help!). Look the length! :blah: what is this , a memoirs or something ?!

Best regards,
Maro

Fangio
03-31-2006, 03:00 AM
Hello Maro, welcome to the forum.

From the pleasure I have with these two-ways, I'd say :yes: keep them! Too sad my pair isn't unique :D, but joking aside, great to hear there are more alive of these. Don't expect much acceptance though, for the idea of restoring them with 99$ kits from ebay, that sounds like aftermarket. This is Lansing Heritage, and the majority will suggest using original kits from JBL as the only way to bring them back to original specs again. Lets hope some experts for JBL sound reinforcement equipment will chime in here, and help you doing it right.
:cheers:
Good luck.

Never been in Rijeka, but in Split, beautiful part of the world. :thmbsup:
For adding pictures, read this:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=817

maro
03-31-2006, 05:56 AM
Hi Fangio!
thank you for such a fast response:applaud: ! I red the instructions, so lets see if I understand something:blink: . Have a nice weekend!:bouncy:

maro
03-31-2006, 06:08 AM
...well, not bad, but I put first pict twice:banghead: , so let's try again with the missing one. Have a nice weekend:bouncy: !

Fangio
05-19-2006, 08:26 AM
A friend helped me tuning these for better HiFi useability. The left box is a new xover for the K130/075, the small one in the middle integrates new acquired 2420s.
Ugly, huh.. but they sound incredible, 100% improvement. Highs and mids are adjustable now, much better balanced, just clean and effortless. The weaks are gone, no EQ'ing needed anymore. (And I can hear the 2420s finally, better than lying around while I'm collecting their buddies for 4-ways :thmbsup:).

Anyone interested in the xovers? They are also biamp-ready.. ;)

John
05-19-2006, 09:11 AM
I think you might want to place a small baffle panel between the lens and horn? I think that's what JBL recommended.:blah:

Fangio
05-19-2006, 09:16 AM
Yes, you're right John - gonna build something like a horn-holder - small piece of baffle in front, and an U for the driver, with a connecting piece. Will think about the material and the best way to make it - suggestions of nice existing solutions are much appreciated.. :)

Fangio
05-19-2006, 11:17 AM
Pretty sure someone will move this to DIY soon.. :rolleyes:

Zilch
05-19-2006, 11:53 AM
Pretty sure someone will move this to DIY soon.. :rolleyes:Your DIY design development facilities are better looking than mine, but the wires are very much the same.... :p

Anthony L100
05-19-2006, 12:46 PM
:applaud: Very nice Fangio, there's something cool about having a "fiddle" with this old gear;). Shall we call you "Filch" or "Zilchio"???:D

Fangio
05-19-2006, 01:08 PM
Thanks Tony. I'm far away from Zilchs expertise, but learning. :D

Anthony L100
05-19-2006, 01:35 PM
These look like a very nice unit to hang on to for general use, especially as they were a "steal" It's amazing how efficient they are compared to the real "hi fi" units, but I guess you have to make sacrifices in other areas to get the real low bass. I feel the same about my L200As, far more efficient than the 4430s but lacking LF extension. While i'm at it, you have a fine pair of drivers in the 2420s, those old ali' diaphrams are soooo nice and smooth:). When are we going to see your 4 ways??:bouncy:. Tony.

Fangio
05-19-2006, 02:16 PM
Yup, the 2420s are great, dias like new, and after a bit fine justage absolutely faultless at a tone generator. I'm happy with that find.

I had to realize, probably like most others going down this road, that the HF/UHF section kinda grows on trees even in europe, is much easier to gather than the LF drivers. Will update the accordant thread soon.. have better news about the 3143 section, and there is one more thing.. :coolness: :D


Edit, more topic: I agree with the effiency thing, these oldies are astonishing. Have the feeling though the K130 doesn't lack much bass anymore since he's crossed over at 3.5kHz now. It still doesn't go as deep as a 15" with foam surround, but the xover improved his LF extension quite a lot, maybe since the aluminium cap isn't used for the mids anymore.. :hmm:

maro
05-26-2006, 05:14 AM
Hi Fangio and other forum people!
First of all my apologies of such a long exile from the forum. I need a little advice. As you remember I wrote about having 4 JBL PA13075 boxes. Well, in two of them (grey pair) I put 2404H tweeter instead of stolen 2402 (or 075). First of all I want to know if they are compatible with K130, or can they replace 2402 without degrading the sound of the original box? I try to compare their features and the only thing I found was a little bit diferent range of frequencies. Second, anyone have the idea which type of xover will be ok for that combination? I put inside some copy of xover which were in the originally box with 2404H but the bas speaker was 12" JBL. So the thing works but not even close the sound of original pair (black pair-K130 with 2402/075,original xover). Is it maybe better to copy xover from that original box even it is a little different tweeter (2402-2404H)?
Thanks in advance!
Maro

Zilch
05-26-2006, 07:05 AM
I put 2404H tweeter instead of stolen 2402 (or 075). First of all I want to know if they are compatible with K130, or can they replace 2402 without degrading the sound of the original box? I try to compare their features and the only thing I found was a little bit diferent range of frequencies.What you missed is that 2402 is 5 dB more efficient than 2404, and the drive level will have to be adjusted accordingly.

Also, the 2402 "beams" the high frequencies in a 30° conical pattern, whereas the 2404 is 100° x 100° constant directivity, providing substantially more beamwidth (that's where the 5 dB goes). Even properly balanced, the two different driver configurations will not "sound" the same.

The 2404 has more extended UHF response, as you've observed. In my experience, the 2404 is very much preferred, but you must get the driver levels properly balanced.

JBL recommended minimum crossover frequency for 2404 is 3 kHz, with minimum 12 dB/octave slope, whereas 2402 is minimum 2.5 kHz, no minimum slope specified. You've gotta pay attention to this stuff to make it work well....

GordonW
05-26-2006, 01:27 PM
Though JBL spec'd the 2404 tweeter as crossover'ed at 3KHz on several designs, if you "run the numbers" on the component values on, for example, the 4612... you find it's effectively a 5KHz ELECTRICAL crossover, which seems to give an effective ACOUSTIC crossover somewhere near 3KHz.

So, if you use an electrical crossover at 3KHz, you'll overload the unit with low end, and the diaphragm will likely fail... word to the wise!

Regards,
Gordon.

Mr. Widget
05-26-2006, 01:57 PM
What you missed is that 2402 is 5 dB more efficient than 2404, and the drive level will have to be adjusted accordingly.From personal experience and from our measurements on the "Ring Radiator" thread, I'd submit the 2404 is more in the -10dB range relative to the 2402... at least if you are on or nearly on axis. The 2404 does produce a better polar plot but at the cost of overall sensitivity and especially at frequencies above 12KHz... usually not a problem in PA applications.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6368


Widget

maro
05-26-2006, 03:35 PM
Hi! Thanks for helping me guys, Zilch, GordonW and Mr.Widget ! I apreciate it very much:) . I can follow the ideas of your opinions but I must be honest and say that I do not understand all you are saying :blink: (because of my low level of understanding acoustic laws). So I go further more with, maybe, stupid questions and hope someone of you, experts, will have patience to follow.
First I will tell what I did understand:bouncy:: the better effitiency of 2402, more beamwidth of 2404, better VHF response of 2404, because I could hear it walking in front of speakers and listening to reproduction of fine jazz songs.
But I dont understand how to "accordingly adjust the drive level of 2404"? This could be done with adding different values of xover components or? Furthermore, "Even properly balanced, the two different driver configurations will not "sound" the same"...this means that it is not ok to use the 2 types of drivers(boxes) at the same time?! Or if I do adjustment of the 2404 driver then is possible? "2404 is very much preferred, but you must get the driver levels properly balanced"-how to do this?
If I adjust xover frequency for 2404 at 3 kHz, will bas speaker K130 reproduce missing frequencies(from 2.5 to 3 kHz)?
What means to "run the numbers" on the component values? Electrical-acoustical xover freq.-this means that the xover frequency must be adjusted higher than 3 kHz to protect HF driver of low end freq.? I already blow one diaphragm of 2404(shame on me), maybe this was a reason?
I think it is enaugh misunderstanding for this level of forum,but please do not throw me out of it!!:( Thanks again to follow me to this sentence...best regards...and good night! maro

Zilch
05-26-2006, 03:42 PM
There's also the 2404H-1 variant, used in several SR products, which incorparates the thicker (and presumably more rugged) 2402 diaphragm (in lieu of 2405 diaphragm). The ring radiator studies show the concomitantly reduced VHF extension of that configuration (Post #6).

[It ain't just the horn.]

I have a pair of 2404H-2. Nobody seems to know WHAT they are.... :p


But I dont understand how to "accordingly adjust the drive level of 2404"? This could be done with adding different values of xover components or? You are doing fine.

If there's a HF level adjustment control, it means you'll probably have to turn it up to supply more drive to the 2404H to balance it with the bass. However, as discussed above, that may be risky, depending upon the crossover frequency and slope. You may have already discovered this to be a problem in blowing one of the diaphragms, though that's not necessarily the case.

We really need to know the circuit and component values of the present crossovers. (N2600?)

Yes, the K130's will "fill in" the frequencies we're talking about here.


Furthermore, "Even properly balanced, the two different driver configurations will not "sound" the same"...this means that it is not ok to use the 2 types of drivers(boxes) at the same time?You've already heard the difference, it appears, for the most part.

It's not O.K. to play the same program material on more than one stereo pair in the same listening space at the same time in any case, let alone multiple pairs with different drivers.

[Unless we're talking party time, of course, in which case, other factors predominate.... :p ]

maro
05-26-2006, 04:27 PM
What a speed Zilch! Thanks. There is a hope for ignorants...I thought everybody is sleeping but I forget that the world is still round (isnt it?) Ok I will try to put some pictures and features of present xover so maybe the things become even more clearer (to me) with such a great support....so, for those in dark part of globe, sleep well, and for the others, enjoy the cosmic light! bye bye Zilch

maro
04-28-2010, 06:12 AM
Hi guys! too long in exile...I hope you remember me...:blink: I was thinking to add some low end sub woofer to existing PA13075 speakers which will than take a role of sattelites only...any ideas what (existing) bass speakers would be good for this combination? I will use this combination for sound reinforcement of small acoustic/light electric concerts Thanks in advance for any suggestion!!:help:

maro
04-29-2010, 01:00 AM
Hi guys! too long in exile...I hope you remember me...:blink: I was thinking to add some low end sub woofer to existing PA13075 speakers which will than take a role of sattelites only...any ideas what (existing) bass speakers would be good for this combination? I will use this combination for sound reinforcement of small acoustic/light electric concerts Thanks in advance for any suggestion!!:help:
No one interested in suggestions? :( come on boys, please share your precious knowledge with ignorants :banghead:

maro
05-24-2012, 05:04 AM
Hi guys,

I came to an idea to make LF PA cabinets from existing PA13075 cabinets by replacing the K130 with K140 and removing HF driver 2402. I intend to use them together with original PA13075 cabinets (as mid/high units) and power them with two amps via active crossover (two basses and two satellites). Any ideas about how it might sound this little PA "system"?

Offcourse, I will not use it for heavy metal bands but small acoustic ensembles or school bands. The idea is to add more bass audio spectrum so that e.g. double bass or low kick drum could work apropriate without obstructing satellites sound with unwanted LF signals.

Any thoughts & ideas are welcome, thanks a lot in advance!

Maro