Sunfire Woofer!

[Steve Gonzales]

Hey Fella's, look what ol' Bobby Carver uses for woofers. Sunfire:

[mikebake]

They don't sound good.

[JuniorJBL]

I call them "one note wonders":D

[louped garouv]

I call them "one note wonders":D

how funny -- small world huh Junior...... It was nice to meet you.

[briang]

That's a pretty beefy motor on that driver.

I wonder how the woofer would sound/perform in a properly designed/engineered sealed or vented box, instead of the teeny-tiny box with two passive radiators Carver now uses.

Of course the size of the current sunfire sub is due to the design requirements for the Subwoofer which were derrived from the customer requirements; that the subwoofer be impossibly small and have substantial output (note sound quality was NOT one of the customer requirements).:blink:

[JuniorJBL]

how funny -- small world huh Junior...... It was nice to meet you.

Yeah It was good to meet you as well I had a good time!!:applaud:

[toddalin]

That's a pretty beefy motor on that driver.

I wonder how the woofer would sound/perform in a properly designed/engineered sealed or vented box, instead of the teeny-tiny box with two passive radiators Carver now uses.

Of course the size of the current sunfire sub is due to the design requirements for the Subwoofer which were derrived from the customer requirements; that the subwoofer be impossibly small and have substantial output (note sound quality was NOT one of the customer requirements).:blink:

One passive radiator.

We have a Sunfire Signiture and love it. The trick is to cross it over very low, like 40 hz or less. It easily does well over 105 dB at the seating position at <18 Hz. (I can put an 18 Hz sine wave into it and watch it dance on the floor.) Neither my 2235s nor W15GTI can touch it for really DEEP bass. The one cubic foot cabinet EASILY keeps up with my three 2235s, a W15GTI, and four Cerwin Vega 10" woofers (used in surrounds). Would not suprise me at all if a 2245 in an 8 cubic foot cabinet wouldn't go as low.

Because there is really little musical content between 18 and 32 Hz, these things are great for sonic impact on movies. The military actually uses them in their helicopter simulators. At times, the low bass can be so strong, that I can feel my guts tighten up.

They also have a fantastic warrantee. They send you a shipping box (no charge) and fix whatever is wrong with it for $180 including return shipping. I bought mine used and the woofer had delaminated. I sent it in and they replaced the woofer but also replaced the entire amplifier with the newer design. The old design grounded the panel through the volume control nut and as the nut would vibrate or corrode, you would pick up a hum until you tightened it. The new design alleviates this.

Also has an extremely high WAF.;)

http://www.largescaleonline.com/eimages/lsolpics/Team_Member_Pics/toddalin/room1.jpg

[Audiobeer]

Fot the size and cost they do a great job for Home theater. It sits out of view. I had a Triad Gold and a Atlantic technoligy 350 and for Home theater I'll go with the little cube in my room out of sight. I don't have the sunfire but a Bob Carver D12 same thing......different name.

[chad]

toddalin,

Thanks for setting the record straight and for the picture:).

I have experienced the sunfire sub in my home and it is a powerful, useful tool. Regardless of what "JBL Nazis" here have to say.

:D

[briang]

One passive radiator.


:o: Whoops! I was thinking of Paradigm's Seismic series.:o:

Thanks for the correction.:)

[Steve Gonzales]

toddalin,

Thanks for setting the record straight and for the picture:).

I have experienced the sunfire sub in my home and it is a powerful, useful tool. Regardless of what "JBL Nazis" here have to say.

:D Thanks for the comments Fella's, both pro and con. My purpose for posting the pic's was purely for fun. I have to say that since the subject has been broached, I'll post my two cents in regards to a Sunfire being a "One note wonder". First, the well regarded reviewer, Julian Hirsh (sp?) said that the Sunfire sub produced the deepest, most powerful bass he'd ever measured. Furthermore, he said that this sub integrated well with the mains in a music system. Now, opinions are like a**holes, everybodys got one, and most of them stink:) , so, I take them with a grain of salt, as I'm sure is true for my own. I will say, IMO +IME, that during my HT installer days, we tackled the problem of sub placement with SPL meters and ALOT of playing around with it's room placement, and sometimes with an outboard, single bandwidth parametric E.Q. Harman's own Infinity subs use this, it's called R.A.B.O.S.. . Another member expressed his displeasure ( in another thread) with the generic use of the term subwoofer and I agree completely. IMO, a true subwoofer will play from about 60hz-40hz on down, hence the term sub-woofer. The room plays a big part in what it will act like. Room resonance peaks will make any sub a "one note wonder" if you don't take extra time/care to tame it properly. Now, I'm not here to hype Bobby's thing-a-ma-jigger, but I do want to give it a fair shake (pun intended). Thanks again, Steve G.

[louped garouv]

generic use of the term subwoofer and I agree completely. IMO, a true subwoofer will play from about 60hz-40hz on down, hence the term sub-woofer.

i don't know what to think about this statement... (and to be sure, i am a novice (with a lower case 'n'))

and I from what i have read, it is generally accepted that the subwoofer xover point is supposed to be somewhere around 80Hz IIRC, right?

but to me, if a "mad scientist" installer/hobbist feels that for his particular use 100Hz xover is 'better' for him and what he wants to do (maybe to add some kick), and his box goes down to 35Hz or lower, its still a subwoofer

i need to figure the 'cheapest bestest' box design for 100Hz down to 25Hz

[Steve Gonzales]

i don't know what to think about this statement... (and to be sure, i am a novice (with a lower case 'n'))

and I from what i have read, it is generally accepted that the subwoofer xover point is supposed to be somewhere around 80Hz IIRC, right?

but to me, if a "mad scientist" installer/hobbist feels that for his particular use 100Hz xover is 'better' for him and what he wants to do (maybe to add some kick), and his box goes down to 35Hz or lower, its still a subwoofer

i need to figure the 'cheapest bestest' box design for 100Hz down to 25Hz Cool LG,

JBL's own B460 and B380's use the BX63 and it's x-over is 63hz. The 100/80hz points are the highest generally accepted frequencies that are 'non-directional', meaning, you shouldn't be able to localize them in the room. The x-over point is based on personal listening tests, the sub's 'duty' (HT/Music) and most importantly, the main's LF output ability. If you've got a suite of small bookshelf speakers in an HT setup that have a usable LF output down to 70-100hz, then of course the sub will have to make up for them. But if you have some L250ti's that have AWESOME LF output down to the mid 20hz to 30hz, then you cross (your B460/B380) at alot lower frequency, JBL says 63hz and who am I to argue. My HT mains have a good usable output down to 40hz, so I've found my x-over point is best at about 50hz ( there are other factors too). These are just general observations and not intended to be the 'end all' of the discussion. Thank you for your input, Steve G.

[JuniorJBL]

The only reason I said "one note wonder" is because they (for me) never blended very well with other speakers.
With that said They are powerful. I have had 4 Juniors and 2 True subs (10" version) one set up was on my computer with my LSR25P's and 2 junior sub's. It would attain VERY high SPL at my seating position (124db to be exact) but the sound was always muddy. Same goes for my home setup. I am not saying that if you like them to not use them.
What my opinion about them is: very non musical but for movie impact they work well. But my 2 2242's and 2 sub1500's for movies can make my screen flutter beyond any watch ability and have tremendous impact.

Remember this is ONLY my working knowledge of these products and what I say can be taken with a grain of salt.;)

[Steve Gonzales]

The only reason I said "one note wonder" is because they (for me) never blended very well with other speakers.
With that said They are powerful. I have had 4 Juniors and 2 True subs (10" version) one set up was on my computer with my LSR25P's and 2 junior sub's. It would attain VERY high SPL at my seating position (124db to be exact) but the sound was always muddy. Same goes for my home setup. I am not saying that if you like them to not use them.
What my opinion about them is: very non musical but for movie impact they work well. But my 2 2242's and 2 sub1500's for movies can make my screen flutter beyond any watch ability and have tremendous impact.

Remember this is ONLY my working knowledge of these products and what I say can be taken with a grain of salt.;) I hear ya, and appreciate your point and opinion. I'd love to hear those 2242's and 2 sub 1500's . Take that Bobby C. !!:D

[louped garouv]

are the sunfire's simmilar to the Outlaw LM-1s?

anyone used them for music?

[Steve Gonzales]

That's a pretty beefy motor on that driver.

I wonder how the woofer would sound/perform in a properly designed/engineered sealed or vented box, instead of the teeny-tiny box with two passive radiators Carver now uses.

Of course the size of the current sunfire sub is due to the design requirements for the Subwoofer which were derrived from the customer requirements; that the subwoofer be impossibly small and have substantial output (note sound quality was NOT one of the customer requirements).:blink: My pursuit of this driver is for exactly that!. I want to tinker with a larger box and I also have some of Earthquake passive radiators that also have the mutant surrounds. Should be fun.

[slxrti]

One passive radiator.

We have a Sunfire Signiture and love it. The trick is to cross it over very low, like 40 hz or less. It easily does well over 105 dB at the seating position at <18 Hz. (I can put an 18 Hz sine wave into it and watch it dance on the floor.) Neither my 2235s nor W15GTI can touch it for really DEEP bass. The one cubic foot cabinet EASILY keeps up with my three 2235s, a W15GTI, and four Cerwin Vega 10" woofers (used in surrounds). Would not suprise me at all if a 2245 in an 8 cubic foot cabinet wouldn't go as low.


I'm not surprise the 4430's don't extend much below 35hz in two rooms I measured them in.

With a passive radiator, there's anther story. I combined a JBL passive (designed for the 136a) with 2235, it would rattle windows and shake the wall's. The passive available in the present should have twice the maximun excussion of the woofer. For the 2235 that would be 2"'s. At full power the
combined movment of both devices, the increased piston area and proper
eq will be impressive above 20hz (remenber the area is a sq function". The sunfire has advangtage of a lower resonance allowing it to play lower and a very high power amp.

The above is from expierence, the other is from a paper "all mighty subwoofer"' which used a 2226 as a sub. This was a app which JBL did not recommend but never the less was very successful.


slxrti

[Zilch]

The above is from expierence, the other is from a paper "all mighty subwoofer"' which used a 2226 as a sub. This was a app which JBL did not recommend but never the less was very successful.Uhmmm, the forum might be interested in that paper.

Here's JBL's 2225H sub:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/4685.pdf

[Wish I could find one to document here.... :( ]

[Steve Gonzales]

I'm not surprise the 4430's don't extend much below 35hz in two rooms I measured them in.

With a passive radiator, there's anther story. I combined a JBL passive (designed for the 136a) with 2235, it would rattle windows and shake the wall's. The passive available in the present should have twice the maximun excussion of the woofer. For the 2235 that would be 2"'s. At full power the
combined movment of both devices, the increased piston area and proper
eq will be impressive above 20hz (remenber the area is a sq function". The sunfire has advangtage of a lower resonance allowing it to play lower and a very high power amp.

The above is from expierence, the other is from a paper "all mighty subwoofer"' which used a 2226 as a sub. This was a app which JBL did not recommend but never the less was very successful.


slxrti Well Mr SLXRTI,

Passive radiators are a bit of a sore subject around these parts. I personally love em'. To each, his own. I am thrilled to hear postive feedback about them. Your 2235H/PR system is quite interesting. What were the enclosure dimensions. Was a PR15 used? how much weight was attached to it?. Please discuss this further here or in a dedicated thread in the DIY section of the forum, I'll follow you there, Thank you, Steve G.

[slxrti]

Well Mr SLXRTI,

Passive radiators are a bit of a sore subject around these parts. I personally love em'. To each, his own. I am thrilled to hear postive feedback about them. .

Yes they are, and any non std usage of varies JBL conponent's bring out the wolf's. Enough said.

Passive Augment the woofer and reduce cone excision of the woofer.

There not enough info on passive, yet JBL use’s them in there SR8 which was there top of the line system in the 60’s.

I built a 8 cubic foot box, filled it to obtain the varies volume.
The box was placed in the corner of my living room. I evaluated
2215, 2205, 136 and 2235's. My crossover was a rane 4 way with a rat shack meter.

The 2235 was the best of the lot, and the passive radiator 2235's was the best of the best. I used addition steel weights to tune the cone. It would rattle the room, where a low tuned freq ported (25hz -30hz) was MIA. One of the issue was the passive was not design for so much mass.

btw, the first revel sub was ported, the latest Revel sub uses a passive

slxrti

[toddalin]

I
With a passive radiator, there's anther story. I combined a JBL passive (designed for the 136a) with 2235, it would rattle windows and shake the wall's. The passive available in the present should have twice the maximun excussion of the woofer. For the 2235 that would be 2"'s. At full power the
combined movment of both devices, the increased piston area and proper
eq will be impressive above 20hz (remenber the area is a sq function". The sunfire has advangtage of a lower resonance allowing it to play lower and a very high power amp.

slxrti

Even with 2235 and a passive radiator, the Sunfire is capable of 0.8 dBA greater volume!

JBL lists maximum peak-to-peak cone excursion before damage at 7/8" for the 2235.

Volume of air moved = pi*r^2*max excursion*2 (to include the passive radiator).

pi*7.5"^2*0.875*2 = 309 cubic inches of air moved per stroke for the JBLs

Amazingly, the Sunfire has a maximum excursion of 2.35"!

pi*5^2*2.35*2 = 369 cubic inches of air moved per stroke!

10 log(369/309) = 0.8 dB louder for the Sunfire!


Features and Specs

2700-watt amp featuring patented Tracking Downconverter power supply
Frequency response: 16 Hz to 100 Hz (+0, -3 dB)
Measurement microphone and automatic internal contour compensation keeps it that way
Greater than 116 dB peak SPL with room gain
Input coupling is optical and accepts balanced, standard and high-level inputs
Bore 10 inches - stroke 2.35 inches (over 360 cubic inches total air volume displacement)
Crossover points variable from 30 Hz to 100 Hz
Input level (volume) control
Phase continuously adjustable 0&#176; to 180&#176;
Passive 70 Hz 6 dB per octave hi-pass line level output for satellite loudspeakers
Dimensions: 13" by 13" by 13"
Two-year warranty

[slxrti]

Even with 2235 and a passive radiator, the Sunfire is capable of 0.8 dBA greater volume!

JBL lists maximum peak-to-peak cone excursion before damage at 7/8" for the 2235.

Volume of air moved = pi*r^2*max excursion*2 (to include the passive radiator).

pi*7.5"^2*0.875*2 = 309 cubic inches of air moved per stroke for the JBLs

Amazingly, the Sunfire has a maximum excursion of 2.35"!

pi*5^2*2.35*2 = 369 cubic inches of air moved per stroke!

10 log(369/309) = 0.8 dB louder for the Sunfire!


Features and Specs

2700-watt amp featuring patented Tracking Downconverter power supply
Frequency response: 16 Hz to 100 Hz (+0, -3 dB)
Measurement microphone and automatic internal contour compensation keeps it that way
Greater than 116 dB peak SPL with room gain
Input coupling is optical and accepts balanced, standard and high-level inputs
Bore 10 inches - stroke 2.35 inches (over 360 cubic inches total air volume displacement)
Crossover points variable from 30 Hz to 100 Hz
Input level (volume) control
Phase continuously adjustable 0&#176; to 180&#176;
Passive 70 Hz 6 dB per octave hi-pass line level output for satellite loudspeakers
Dimensions: 13" by 13" by 13"
Two-year warranty

the sunfire is a fine sub for sure,

http://member.newsguy.com/~stigerik/almighty/design.html, wrong link. but a nice read anyway.


slxrti

[duaneage]

Some of the patents surrounding the sunfire subwoofer are very controversial. Carver Inc claims two patents that are dubious at best.

1. Any surround 1/32" or thicker on any subwoofer of any design.

2. Carver actually patented cabinet pressure inside the box at a given frequency.

Patenting the surround thickness is ridiculous since prior art probably exists and can invalidate it. Pressures are like sounds, H-D could not patent the sound of their bikes and I don't think suing a company because they have the same pressure inside the box as yours at a given frequency would hold up. There is much more to performance of a system that what the pressure inside the box is, at say, 35 hz.

While a technically interesting piece, the creative way Carver's lawyers look to increase profit through wanton patents speaks volumes.

[Steve Gonzales]

Some of the patents surrounding the sunfire subwoofer are very controversial. Carver Inc claims two patents that are dubious at best.

1. Any surround 1/32" or thicker on any subwoofer of any design.

2. Carver actually patented cabinet pressure inside the box at a given frequency.

Patenting the surround thickness is ridiculous since prior art probably exists and can invalidate it. Pressures are like sounds, H-D could not patent the sound of their bikes and I don't think suing a company because they have the same pressure inside the box as yours at a given frequency would hold up. There is much more to performance of a system that what the pressure inside the box is, at say, 35 hz.

While a technically interesting piece, the creative way Carver's lawyers look to increase profit through wanton patents speaks volumes. Hey Duaneage,

Here are some pictures of my Energy MicroStar 12.1. I tried to order another one from their factory and was told that it had been discontinued due to a lawsuit by Sunfire co. This sub is a sealed box design with a 1500 watt amp. It was Energy's TOTL sub until the suit. Great sub, too bad.

[duaneage]

Another fine example of why tort and patent reform is needed

[Steve Schell]

My business partner Rich owns a Sunfire sub, and we used it with our Cogent horn system at the VTV show in October. The room was tiny, and our big front loaded horn sub was too large to fit in there. The Carver worked pretty well, adding a nice fullness on the bottom when run at a fairly low level. I find that its sound is no match for the horn sub though, sounding bloated and boomy- the sound of stored energy. Its size is a huge advantage, as it can be tucked away almost anywhere.

Last night I was listening to the system, playing Yello tracks at 100dB+ peak SPLs. There is a lot of low frequency content in this music, and the horn sub was shaking the place and rattling the windows. I decided to measure the AC voltage at the sub amp output for fun. The highest reading I saw was 4V, or one watt into the Altec 515-16G driver installed in the sub.

[4313B]

toddalin,

Thanks for setting the record straight and for the picture:).

I have experienced the sunfire sub in my home and it is a powerful, useful tool. Regardless of what "JBL Nazis" here have to say.

:DOh now... don't go getting mad Chas. :p
You should know the true intended application of the 2235H by now. :scold:
Have you tried the W1500H?

Yes they are, and any non std usage of varies JBL conponent's bring out the wolf's. Enough said.Let's just say there are various levels of "users" on the forum and leave it at that. ;)

[Robh3606]

Is it just me or do you guys feel the same way about this. I don't like the bass those small area large excursion subs make. It doesn't sound natural to me. The larger woofers just seem to sound much better. I not even sure how to explain it. It's not as clean, it's blurred for lack of a better word. Yeah they go deep as hell but they seem to give up resolution up higher where I think it counts most. I have not heard all that many but I really didn't like the ones I did. JMHO mind you.

Rob:)

[4313B]

The whole point is to go as deep as possible, move as much air as possible, and do it with as minimal excursion as possible.

Yeah, several times comments were made last week at JBL about the necessity to get xmax up around 4'. That would be 4' one way. :rotfl:

Ah well, let the kids have their fun. :)

Last night I was listening to the system, playing Yello tracks at 100dB+ peak SPLs. There is a lot of low frequency content in this music, and the horn sub was shaking the place and rattling the windows. I decided to measure the AC voltage at the sub amp output for fun. The highest reading I saw was 4V, or one watt into the Altec 515-16G driver installed in the sub.My wife and I thoroughly enjoyed the visit to your place last Friday night Steve. Thanks again! :cheers:
We missed the Yello tracks though! :(

[duaneage]

I think they lose their musical ability because of the small enclosures and physics defying excursions. Aura makes serious subwoofers that really do the same thing as the sunfire but are much better built and pull no punches. They have drivers with xmax values of 2 inches or more.

Take a really big honking magnet, hook it to a stiff cone and hang it with a oversized huge rubber surround and your going to get a speaker that needs a tiny box to stiffen it.

It's hard to keep cone movement linear when it's moving over an inch. A system that produces high volume with low to moderate cone movement will have an advantage over long throw drivers since proper dampening can be a good thing.

As sunfire woofers age the critical tuning is almost certain to be changed. How will it sound in 15 or 20 years

[toddalin]

As sunfire woofers age the critical tuning is almost certain to be changed. How will it sound in 15 or 20 years

Doesn't matter. Send it back and for $180 they replace any and everything that is wrong..., and then some.:D

While using a bigger woofer reduces excursion to reach a given volume, it also typically results in a heavier cone and this requires more force to start, stop, and reverse. Also a bigger cone can pick up more distortion across the cone as it flexes.

[Zilch]

While using a bigger woofer reduces excursion to reach a given volume, it also typically results in a heavier cone and this requires more force to start, stop, and reverse.It also typically has a bigger motor to do it. :)

The whole "slow" thing is a myth. Try some LE14H-3's on for size.... :thmbsup:

[toddalin]

It also typically has a bigger motor to do it. :)

The whole "slow" thing is a myth. Try some LE14H-3's on for size.... :thmbsup:

Zilch, come spend a weekend with us and you can listen to the Sunfire to your heart's content. I've never heard ANY JBL that goes as low as loud.

Like I said earlier, the Sunfire produces enough low frequency energy to make your stomach twinge (like when an elevator begins to drop).

[Steve Gonzales]

Orignal quote by Duaneage: "Take a really big honking magnet, hook it to a stiff cone and hang it with a oversized huge rubber surround and your going to get a speaker that needs a tiny box to stiffen it."

You can set a 10lb. weight on the flat piston cone of this driver while it's on it's back and it will barely depress it a small fraction of an inch. It is very stiff, freestanding. This thread has gone beyond my expectations and I want to clarify something. These subs will never take the place of a 2235H/2245H/2242 etc. The Sunfire is a subwoofer in the truest sense IMO, they are, as stated elsewhere, good at sub frequencies, 60-40hz on down, I'll give them a nickname they really deserve, Bottom octave wonders ;) . Look at a 2235H JBL, this great transducer will play on up to 1khz and do it very well, can it be used in a B380 subwoofer?, yes. Will a Sunfire do the same? no. Two different animals. Do I use my MicroStar 12.1 "Sunfire quasi-clone" for 2 channel ?, no. I use it for my HT setup. Two different animals. IMO, comparing a Sunfire to any JBL music subwoofer, is an unfair comparison, they are apples and oranges. S.G.

[Robh3606]

IMO, comparing a Sunfire to any JBL music subwoofer, is an unfair comparison, they are apples and oranges. S.G.

You have been around here how long and you expect "us" to stay on topic???:D

Actually I think its a good discussion. I agree with you for HT it's perfect and even with music I am sure it would be fine just crossed low enough. I have an HT sub as well and my home made Le-14 subs are much better on music. So you where are you puttin it??? Must take a good number of watts just to get it to move.

Rob:)

[Steve Gonzales]

You have been around here how long and you expect "us" to stay on topic???:D

Actually I think its a good discussion. I agree with you for HT it's perfect and even with music I am sure it would be fine just crossed low enough. I have an HT sub as well and my home made Le-14 subs are much better on music. So you where are you puttin it??? Must take a good number of watts just to get it to move.

Rob:) Topic?. What topic?:p . You nailed it there Rob, it must be crossed low enough. When I got this driver originally a few years back, I hooked it up to a bridged SAE P250 (500 watts) and electronically crossed it at 60hz. I did this freeair. That thing barely moved!!!. I'm looking at a PE 1000 watt @ 4ohms plate to mate to this. I remember that in the aforementioned review by J.Hirsh, he said that the 2,700 watt Sunfire amp was really about 270 actual watts. Ol' Bobby must have something else going on in the topology that would account for those 270 watts working that good if Hirsh was correct. As far as what I will do with this 'thing', that is still up in the air. What I will hopefully learn by experimentation is really what I value at this point. I will tell you this, "Ain't nuthin' Bobby ever made that will replace something Mr. Lansing did !" :)

[edgewound]

I think they lose their musical ability because of the small enclosures and physics defying excursions. Aura makes serious subwoofers that really do the same thing as the sunfire but are much better built and pull no punches. They have drivers with xmax values of 2 inches or more.


The Aurasound subs are very clean. The "neo radial motor" was the most advance motor topology in many years. The gap depth is close to two inches with an underhung voicecoil of about 1". Extremely long, very linear excursion. Some of the best drivers available. The company AuraSystems has some very impressive magnetics technologies. A long time JBL engineering executive joined AuraSound which purchased Electro-Tec, the touring company. Too bad the early management...now long gone...had to sell the the AuraSound division to a chinese company, Algo Technology, Inc.

[Steve Gonzales]

If I remember correctly the 18" Aura's Neo-Radial technology was first developed by the Russians and licenced to Aura?.

[toddalin]

Topic?. What topic?:p . You nailed it there Rob, it must be crossed low enough. When I got this driver originally a few years back, I hooked it up to a bridged SAE P250 (500 watts) and electronically crossed it at 60hz. I did this freeair. That thing barely moved!!!. I'm looking at a PE 1000 watt @ 4ohms plate to mate to this. I remember that in the aforementioned review by J.Hirsh, he said that the 2,700 watt Sunfire amp was really about 270 actual watts. Ol' Bobby must have something else going on in the topology that would account for those 270 watts working that good if Hirsh was correct. As far as what I will do with this 'thing', that is still up in the air. What I will hopefully learn by experimentation is really what I value at this point. I will tell you this, "Ain't nuthin' Bobby ever made that will replace something Mr. Lansing did !" :)

Actually, what was stated that the amplifier does output 2,700 watts, but that only a portion of this actually drives the speaker while the remainder of the power is used to overcome the back electromotive force produced during excursion.

[edgewound]

If I remember correctly the 18" Aura's Neo-Radial technology was first developed by the Russians and licenced to Aura?.

No...Aura developed and patented the technology and is available to license. OEM's can also buy the motors, I believe.

[4313B]

I've never heard ANY JBL that goes as low as loud.We can't be held responsible for what you have and haven't heard. I'm sure there is a Sunfire forum you can visit and talk about their stuff 24/7/365 if desired.

I think you might be forgetting, or maybe you just don't know, that there is a facet of JBL out there that you're not familiar with. That's fair enough. Try rubbing elbows with some JBL Pros. Get out... move around... meet some people...

[Steve Gonzales]

Now I understand. I still can't account for the SAE not being able to make it move much.

[Steve Gonzales]

We can't be held responsible for what you have and haven't heard. I'm sure there is a Sunfire forum you can visit and talk about their stuff 24/7/365 if desired. Oh Giskard! :banghead: :p

[4313B]

Oh Giskard! :banghead: :p;)

[toddalin]

Oh Giskard! :banghead: :p

Diddo.;)

[4313B]

Diddo.;)D'oh!


Isn't it like Dido (girl) or Ditto (punctuation)?

Damn! Googled Diddo for the hell of it and it took me to urban dictionary which is off limits while at work. :rotfl:
Now I have to break out my irons and gunbattle with the LAN police when they show up at my office.

[louped garouv]

Googled Diddo for the hell of it and it took me to urban dictionary which is off limits while at work. :rotfl:
Now I have to break out my irons and gunbattle with the LAN police when they show up at my office.

1. Diddo

meaning I DID DO it when asked a question
Did you sign up for the luncheon.

Diddo


I think Toddalin meant "ditto"

[4313B]

Oh for crying out loud! Who dreamt up that one?

[louped garouv]

Oh for crying out loud! Who dreamt up that one?

from my experience with the vernacular of the streets....

typically not the most intelligent guy on the block

[louped garouv]

oops... sorry

double post

[4313B]

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer eh?

[louped garouv]

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer eh?

nor the most surefooted....

I am constantly falling down my stairs... maybe i should slack off of the single malt.... ;)

I didn't know you were Canadian, 'eh

[4313B]

I'm living too close to the border eh.

I'm a two fisted rum drinker with high gloss stairs and no treads. I wear socks to add a wee bit of danger to it all.

[chad]

Please allow me to preface my post with this.....

1) This comment is coming from someone who has purchased the following JBL components, in the last year:

2 hf diaphragms
2 hf compression drivers
3 pro audio 12" drivers
3 pro audio hf horns
misc. hardware, gaskets, logos, screws, bolts, crossovers, corner protectors via proservice

2) Have completed an SR 4722 restoration

3) Started a cutom DIY two way system with JBL components

I cannot even comprehend the narrow-minded comments on this post that bleed on and on about the Sunfire's inferiority to (insert JBL product here).

Some of you guys need to break out of your shell, live a little, hear a pair of British loudspeakers, maybe go skydiving, come out of your JBL workshop / worship room, and get a little sun, maybe even audition a (properly applied) Sunfire (in a proper listening environment).

If JBL products didn't exist, I must wonder if some of you would not be able to appreciate music at all.

[JuniorJBL]

Now I have to break out my irons and gunbattle with the LAN police when they show up at my office.

Don't forget to use your firewall and IP address when they show up!!:D

[louped garouv]

i read it as more of an off handed comment than an attack on the membership...

but i am nobody...

carry on....

[Robh3606]

I cannot even comprehend the narrow-minded comments on this post that bleed on and on about the Sunfire's inferiority to (insert JBL product here).

Some of you guys need to break out of your shell, live a little, hear a pair of British loudspeakers, maybe go skydiving, come out of your JBL workshop / worship room, and get a little sun, maybe even audition a (properly applied) Sunfire (in a proper listening environment).

If JBL products didn't exist, I must wonder if some of you would not be able to appreciate music at all.


Wow!

I think there are a couple of things you should consider. How do you know we haven't?? I think most of us are hear for that "JBL" sound. I grew up in a house with a Garrard turntable, Leak Amps, Tuner and Preamp and Wharfedales all of which I still own. I also have Infinities and Boston Acoustics and AR's. None of them do it for me like the JBL's. It a personal thing. I can understand reading the thread why you posted this but you can't always tell what's going on from peoples posts.

Rob:)

[toddalin]

Not the sharpest knife in the drawer eh?

Maybe you are trying to read too much into a simple typo.

As for others, I never said the Sunfire was superior. I mearly stated that I had never heard a JBL play as loud as low. Certainly I've not heard all the JBLs.

Maybe Zilch's monster sub could do it...;) :D , but I never got a chance to hear it.

[Zilch]

Maybe Zilch's monster sub could do it...;) :D , but I never got a chance to hear it.Next time you're up here, we'll swap the 2241H's into it for a little run.

I have also figured out how to make 2242H's fit. :p

[Don't have any yet, tho.... :( ]

[toddalin]

Next time you're up here, we'll swap the 2241H's into it for a little run.

I have also figured out how to make 2242H's fit. :p

[Don't have any yet, tho.... :( ]

We'll be up beginning of July for the National Garden Railroad Convention. Hope to hear it then.

[4313B]

Maybe you are trying to read too much into a simple typo.I was joking with louped garouv. Actually I was kind of hoping others would drift off topic too and come up with similar statements. I know there's a bunch of them I just couldn't think of any others.

Oops! Here I go wasting time explaining myself again. :p

[louped garouv]

Oops! Here I go wasting time explaining myself again. :p

never as much fun 'splaining your meaning either!

I enjoyed it... :o:


but seriously I need to figure out the VLF thing for myself too.....

I just can't afford four JBL 18s right now... :banghead: but need some musical VLF (& HIGH SPL) bass.....

[mikebake]

Have you tried the W1500H?

Please don't sully that driver by including it in this thread..............

[4313B]

I don't think it sullies the W1500H. I'll agree though that it is rather rediculous to include this dramatically superior transducer in this thread. It is a seriously expensive piece of hardware best left to higher end systems. I mean really, these guys are buying pairs of older legacy Lansing systems for less than the price of a single W1500H... whole different league. Rumor has it that specific transducer might be taken to yet another level. Good grief! ;)

[spkrman57]

It may be awhile before I can afford a pair though!;)
Ron






Rumor has it that specific transducer might be taken to yet another level. Good grief! ;)[/COLOR]

[4313B]

You and me both!

I'm thinking - half a dozen trips to other states to visit or a pair of W1500H's.:hmm:

My SUB1500's are "good enough" for the time being so I'll take the trips with my family. ;)

[spkrman57]

But I thank the JBL Gods every day I fire up my 2242!:)


I call it my great "Big Sub"!

And it don't need a 2700 watt amp to run either!

Ron:p

[Merkin Berfel]

Just wondering. Has Bob Carver been involved in any product that's still considered desirable ten years later?

[Mr. Widget]

Just wondering. Has Bob Carver been involved in any product that's still considered desirable ten years later?What?

You don't think people are falling over themselves searching out Bob's quality products from the past?

Here is one I tried... Ouch... a real ear burner!


Widget

[duaneage]

My opinion of most Carver products are they are loaded with gimicks. Carver made some fine amplifiers but for the money better could be had.