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View Full Version : What to watch out for on re-cones?



noah katz
03-16-2006, 06:22 PM
There are a bunch of re-coned 2206H's on ebay.

Anything I should watch out for, like might the cone/VC assemblies be cheap knockoff's of JBL's?

Does a kosher re-cone always use JBL parts, or are there equal-quality parts from alternate sources? If so, which are they?

Thanks

scott fitlin
03-16-2006, 07:17 PM
Real JBL recones always use genuine JBL kits, never aftermarket recone kits, never.

noah katz
03-16-2006, 07:23 PM
OK, so how do I tell if it's a JBL cone assembly?

Thanks

scott fitlin
03-16-2006, 07:30 PM
Some of our members here are more versed in this than I!

Someone like Giskard, or Edgewound may have the answers you need.

edgewound
03-17-2006, 09:49 AM
OK, so how do I tell if it's a JBL cone assembly?

Thanks

It's best to have pictures from the auction. I saw a past eBay auction(s) listing a bunch of 2206's that were clearly not reconed with JBL kits. There is some identifying numbers and QC handwriting on the rear of the cones on genuine JBL parts...I can't recall the numbers on the cone...I'll dig one up later to look.

noah katz
03-17-2006, 11:34 AM
Thanks, Edgewound.

Not sure if the link is allowed, but here's one of them

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-15-2206H-8-ohm-speaker-new-recone_W0QQitemZ7399164444QQcategoryZ47094QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Like the name, but it must be tough living life on the an edge, all wound up, but I guess that's the price you pay for having a magnetic personality. sorry:)

remusr
03-17-2006, 12:11 PM
My JBL speaker repair facility dude told me that JBL 2215/2231/2234/2235/2245 etc. cones & foams came from a company called Holly, wasn't sure where JBL got spiders from but thinks they outsourced them too. JBL spun their VC's themselves and assembled the spiders, cones and foams. I have not confirmed this from anyone at JBL so take it FWIW!
He currently uses MWA Speaker Parts www.mwaspeakerparts.com (http://www.mwaspeakerparts.com) recone and refoam kits from the USA as he says they are the best out there. Holly no longer a source, if they still exist. MWA rolls are about 7/16" dia not the OEM 1/2" but are supposed to perform the same. Face gaskets are a bit narrower and taller than OEM as well. Spiders are a custom issue as there are several stiffnesses available (ie he told me that 2231A/136A 16Hz Fs apparently use softer "C" but 2234/2235H 20Hz Fs use stiffer "D" spider) but generally are a problem to change on cone kits.
I have not measured Fs but the refoams I have had done using MWA components sound OK to me. I don't know if I can reliably hear a couple Hz Fs change altho I can hear the difference in bass between my warmer 136A L300's and my tighter 2235H 4430's!
- Roy

Tim Rinkerman
03-17-2006, 12:59 PM
Two easy ones...serial no. on the cone starts with "WHF-xxxxxxx" . WHF stands for Waldom high fidelity...fake cone with round wire voice coil. Orange colored gaskets...always came with Waldom parts kits.

edgewound
03-17-2006, 01:06 PM
Thanks, Edgewound.

Not sure if the link is allowed, but here's one of them

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-15-2206H-8-ohm-speaker-new-recone_W0QQitemZ7399164444QQcategoryZ47094QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Like the name, but it must be tough living life on the an edge, all wound up, but I guess that's the price you pay for having a magnetic personality. sorry:)

We post links all the time....no problem.

Here is a problem. The 2206 is and always has been a 12" speaker...not a 15" as listed in the auction...kind of sloppy advertising if you ask me.

Another problem is value. A correct JBL 2206 recone price is $136.00 parts and labor. A frame is worth about $25.00. $150.00 is way too much to pay for a premium speaker with the wrong parts and assembly. Some aftermarket reconers will try to jump down my throat and tell me I'm full of sh8t when I talk about the virtues of aftermarket vs. Genuine....that genuine is too expensive. The fact is... you get factory tolerances with a factory recone kit, and factory performance. Aftermarket is a crap shoot when you don't know the reconer, and there are lots of "interesting recone jobs out there....I've redone lots of them....from eBay purchases, and elsewhere.

BTW...the cone mfg in the previous post is named "Hawley Products".
To the best of my knowledge JBL's cones come from LCC...Loudspeaker Component Corp....a facility I believe is run by Harman...or at least Harman owns their tooling for JBL cones and is exclusive. I welcome any corrections if I'm wrong.

Magnet3
03-17-2006, 01:07 PM
Like the name, but it must be tough living life on the an edge, all wound up, but I guess that's the price you pay for having a magnetic personality. sorry:)

Very witty! :applaud: I like it....

noah katz
03-17-2006, 01:50 PM
Thanks for all the info, guys.

Sounds like I'd be better off getting blown ones and getting a proper recone myself.

Although after factoring in shipping to me, then to the reconer and back, I might as well just buy new ones.

Are there any reconers in the S.F. Bay Area?

Zilch
03-17-2006, 02:31 PM
2206H is VGC. Do aftermarket kits have the requisite holes/confirguration?

http://www.jblproservice.com/service/california.html

Earl K
03-17-2006, 04:12 PM
My JBL speaker repair facility dude told me that JBL 2215/2231/2234/2235/2245 etc. cones & foams came from a company called Holly,,,,(snip, snip ),,,,

- Yes, their name was actually "Hawley" not Holly .

- I just looked at the fairly spartan ( perhaps even pathetic ? ) "MWA" website.
- Personally, I wouldn't want the voice coils of my recones to be built from "round wire" ( in place of the proper, edgewound wire type ) .

- OTOH, maybe that sites' webmaster just has an ESL issue , ie; "round-wire" and "wound-wire" having being spelled out phonetically and used interchangeably .

- In either case, the MWA site does not create confidence for an informed consumer . Where are the assurances that the voice-coils have the correct length of wire in them and are of the proper gauge and/or that the cones are of the correct weight ?

:)

edgewound
03-17-2006, 04:25 PM
- Yes, their name was actually "Hawley" not Holly .

- I just looked at the fairly spartan ( perhaps even pathetic ? ) "MWA" website.
- Personally, I wouldn't want the voice coils of my recones to be built from "round wire" ( in place of the proper, edgewound wire type ) .

- OTOH, maybe that sites' webmaster just has an ESL issue , ie; "round-wire" and "wound-wire" having being spelled out phonetically and used interchangeably .

- In either case, the MWA site does not create confidence for an informed consumer . Where are the assurances that the voice-coils have the correct length of wire in them and are of the proper gauge and/or that the cones are of the correct weight ?

:)

I will come to the defense of MWA...I buy some parts from them for general recones/refoams. They do offer edgewound coils, and they're actually pretty good. The main caveat is to know what you are buying...and pay a reasonable price for it. MWA only sells to the "trade".

I've stated before that reconing with aftermarket parts is not illegal, but that it must be disclosed to the buyer in all fairness and eBay auctions are notorius for lacking precise details when it comes to recones.

The physical specs of aftermarket parts/recone kits are different from the genuine article...and the difference should be significantly reflected in the price...ballpark 30-50% less

Earl K
03-17-2006, 04:37 PM
-Thanks for the clarity on this Ken. It's most appreciated .

:)

noah katz
03-17-2006, 05:54 PM
This is the response I got from the seller:

"We recone all the speakers here in our shop with after market kits. We order the kits from MZW. We use these parts in our own gear as we are a live sound company. We offer a 90 day warranty on materials and workmanship."

Anyone familiar with MZW?

Thanks

remusr
03-18-2006, 01:55 PM
Earl,
Most of the MWA website is visible only to confirmed retailers. The JBL kits are authentic edgewound.
Thx for the correct spelling of Hawley.
- Roy

mech986
03-19-2006, 01:18 PM
Hi Edgewound,

To the best of my knowledge JBL's cones come from LCC...Loudspeaker Component Corp....a facility I believe is run by Harman...or at least Harman owns their tooling for JBL cones and is exclusive. I welcome any corrections if I'm wrong.

I did a search on this and this story came up:

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2003/06/09/daily35.html

LCC of Lancaster, Wisconsin closed in 2003. Is this the same company? Do you suppose that's why some of the recone assemblies and some of the JBL drivers became a whole lot more scarce or unobtainium?

Regards,

Bart

edgewound
03-19-2006, 01:49 PM
Hi Edgewound,

To the best of my knowledge JBL's cones come from LCC...Loudspeaker Component Corp....a facility I believe is run by Harman...or at least Harman owns their tooling for JBL cones and is exclusive. I welcome any corrections if I'm wrong.

I did a search on this and this story came up:

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2003/06/09/daily35.html

LCC of Lancaster, Wisconsin closed in 2003. Is this the same company? Do you suppose that's why some of the recone assemblies and some of the JBL drivers became a whole lot more scarce or unobtainium?

Regards,

Bart

That could very well be, Bart. Looks like LCC was a MAJOR polluter if you look at their enviro reports.

I've also heard from another source that Dupont Corp. has altogether stopped supplying Kapton Polyimide film to the loudspeaker industry. I haven't confirmed that myself, but that would surely have an effect on voice coil manufacturing supply chains.

LE15-Thumper
03-27-2006, 02:52 AM
That particular driver looks to be transplant victim.


Thanks, Edgewound.

Not sure if the link is allowed, but here's one of them

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-15-2206H-8-ohm-speaker-new-recone_W0QQitemZ7399164444QQcategoryZ47094QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Like the name, but it must be tough living life on the an edge, all wound up, but I guess that's the price you pay for having a magnetic personality. sorry:)

GordonW
03-28-2006, 03:36 PM
- Yes, their name was actually "Hawley" not Holly .

- I just looked at the fairly spartan ( perhaps even pathetic ? ) "MWA" website.
- Personally, I wouldn't want the voice coils of my recones to be built from "round wire" ( in place of the proper, edgewound wire type ) .



MWA doesn't spec round-wire coils for JBL drivers. They are a distributor for Precision Coil Winding, which also has supplied JBL as an OEM for some of their drivers... these PCW coils are EDGE-WOUND, and are dimensionally identical (in side-by-side comparison) to the originals.

In some cases, it's time to face facts- with the discontinuation of kits by JBL (and the "consolidation" of reconing recommendations to a shrinking group of currently available kits), we're reaching a time where ACCURATE reconing (ie, having the EXACT RIGHT cone weight, the EXACT RIGHT voice coil dimensions, etc) with factory kits is IMPOSSIBLE. Sure, you can use a factory 2202H or E120 kit in a D120... but it AIN'T the SAME THING. With the aftermarket suppliers, you have a much wider variety of parts (in fact, I did a survey... MWA alone, offers over 900 different voice coils, over a thousand different spiders, hundreds, if not thousands by this point, of cones, and over a hundred different dustcap compositions, dimensions and configurations). to choose from. Within those, and some parts from other manufacturers (for one example- Waldom is the ONLY company, that you can still get a PAPER EDGE JBL D120-type cone from, if you want a truly "vintage-accurate" recone) it's usually possible to get closer to the original parameters of the driver, at least in some cases where factory kits are an "approximation" these days...

Yes, you're more dependent on the skill and diligence of the reconer, with aftermarket parts... but there's a potential PLUS to that situation, if the reconer is good enough...

Regards,
Gordon.

johnaec
03-28-2006, 04:03 PM
In some cases, it's time to face facts- with the discontinuation of kits by JBL...I'm curious, (don't need them yet), but is aftermarket stuff out there for the 2203 and 2108 stuff? JBL apparently has *nothing* for these...

John

GordonW
03-28-2006, 04:13 PM
I'm curious, (don't need them yet), but is aftermafket stuff out there for the 2203 and 2108 stuff? JBL apparently has *nothing* for these...

John

I need to check... but I THINK I remember being able to get a 2203/121A/124H-style foam-edge 4" voice coil JBL-type aftermarket cone. If so, then the rest of the kit (voice coil, spider, dustcap) is the same as the 2235H, in all practical consideration. Would need to either recover or duplicate the mass ring, but that's possible too...

2108 is another story. Haven't seen parts for the large-coil 8" drivers...

Regards,
Gordon.

edgewound
03-28-2006, 04:19 PM
MWA doesn't spec round-wire coils for JBL drivers. They are a distributor for Precision Coil Winding, which also has supplied JBL as an OEM for some of their drivers... these PCW coils are EDGE-WOUND, and are dimensionally identical (in side-by-side comparison) to the originals.

In some cases, it's time to face facts- with the discontinuation of kits by JBL (and the "consolidation" of reconing recommendations to a shrinking group of currently available kits), we're reaching a time where ACCURATE reconing (ie, having the EXACT RIGHT cone weight, the EXACT RIGHT voice coil dimensions, etc) with factory kits is IMPOSSIBLE. Sure, you can use a factory 2202H or E120 kit in a D120... but it AIN'T the SAME THING. With the aftermarket suppliers, you have a much wider variety of parts (in fact, I did a survey... MWA alone, offers over 900 different voice coils, over a thousand different spiders, hundreds, if not thousands by this point, of cones, and over a hundred different dustcap compositions, dimensions and configurations). to choose from. Within those, and some parts from other manufacturers (for one example- Waldom is the ONLY company, that you can still get a PAPER EDGE JBL D120-type cone from, if you want a truly "vintage-accurate" recone) it's usually possible to get closer to the original parameters of the driver, at least in some cases where factory kits are an "approximation" these days...

Yes, you're more dependent on the skill and diligence of the reconer, with aftermarket parts... but there's a potential PLUS to that situation, if the reconer is good enough...

Regards,
Gordon.

I'll face your fact, Gordon...ALL of the aftermarket recones I've redone over my 18 years in business have ALL been crap. The most recent D120 recones I've done from customers eBay purchases have not EVEN been close to a JBL spec, and the one's the guy on eBay is selling don't sell....because they're not even disclosed that they are aftermarket....which is CRAP! I said I have used MWA parts and some are pretty good...but most assembly jobs are crap...and I'm not afraid to say so. JBL kits that are available are still the BEST option....and an upgrade in performance from their vintage counterparts.;)

Earl K
03-28-2006, 04:29 PM
Gordon,

Thanks for the overview on MWA . I was already somewhat placated by Kens' defence and knowledge of them / but it's always nice to hear more opinions ( on their products ) .

I standby my comments about their website . It gives the casual browser ( me, retail customer ) the wrong impression about their depth of product .

:)

GordonW
03-28-2006, 04:35 PM
JBL kits that are available are still the BEST option....and an upgrade in performance from their vintage counterparts.;)

Well, that's all fine and good, if the PROPER kits are still available. The number of speakers for which this is not true, increases yearly...

Also, one man's "upgrade in performance" is another man's "loss of tone". Try telling the guitar player for George Jones, that the fabric-edge E120 kit is better than the paper edge kit- aftermarket or not. He'll tell you where to stick that fabric!

The point is, for PROS that KNOW EXACTLY what sound they want, these kit substitutions just don't cut it. It's GOTTA be the same composition as the originals. And if that's what they want, I'll go aftermarket to get it, any time, any day...

Regards,
Gordon.

edgewound
03-28-2006, 04:48 PM
Well, that's all fine and good, if the PROPER kits are still available. The number of speakers for which this is not true, increases yearly...

Also, one man's "upgrade in performance" is another man's "loss of tone". Try telling the guitar player for George Jones, that the fabric-edge E120 kit is better than the paper edge kit- aftermarket or not. He'll tell you where to stick that fabric!

The point is, for PROS that KNOW EXACTLY what sound they want, these kit substitutions just don't cut it. It's GOTTA be the same composition as the originals. And if that's what they want, I'll go aftermarket to get it, any time, any day...

Regards,
Gordon.

So I suppose the voice coil doesn't matter then, right? Is the coil for the MWA D120 kit aluminum or copper? Is the DCR the same? Wound on kraft paper? or aluminum? What about the thickness of the aluminum dome? How does the dome fit the voice coil?...etc. They're not the same as vintage...and not assembled in the same factory jigs to the same PRECISION tolerance.

It's those little details that add up. I'll stick by factory, thank you. That's what I use...and my customers ask for....because they I know I do it right the first time.