How bad is an LE111A refoamed on the wrong side?

[BMWCCA]

I got the seller of the Craig's List L110s to send me a close up of the refoam job. Looks very nice but the surround is attached to the front of the cone. Now I know it looks wrong (and IS wrong), but other than for reasons of purity, will it harm the sound or the speaker? Should I pass? How do you feel it impacts the value of an otherwise nice pair of L110s? Worth a lower offer?

Thanks,

-Phil

[louped garouv]

Worth a lower offer?

of course... always worth a shot, right... :thmbsup:

sonically, i think this has been gone over -- don't remember the result tho' -- never had to deal with this particular issue....

[Earl K]

- Personally, I'd like to see the owners' of such tragedies forced to "part-out" their lame attempts at executing proper repairs.

- Until the "market" recognizes these guys ( the guys' doing the repairs ) are bone-heads, nothing will change.

- Offering false platitudes of reassurance that it just doesn't matter , only exacerbates this festering situation .

- & FWIW , the le111a is not the same as the le111h or the le10h or the le10h-1 ( too bad about that obsolete alnico magnet - what a waste of a good coil ). It has more coil in the gap , giving it a lower Qts figure ( along with a higher BL quotient / so only "truely hopeless" speaker-holics will appreciate these type of figures ). Ie; much less low bass / but a lot more resolution from what's there ( usually appreciated more by the Japanese ).

- Want North American bass for the masses ? Buy some 123a-3(s) or 2213H(s) and enjoy the "plump but firm bassness" that they provide .

:o:

[BMWCCA]

- Personally, I'd like to see the owners' of such tragedies forced to "part-out" their lame attempts at executing proper repairs.
Even sadder when he's paid someone he says is listed as a JBL-authorized repair station to do it for him! :( (Winston Electronics, St. Louis, if you need to know.)

- & FWIW , the le111a is not the same as the le111h or the le10h or the le10h-1 ( too bad about that obsolete alnico magnet - what a waste of a good coil ). It has more coil in the gap , giving it a lower Qts figure ( along with a higher BL quotient / so only "truely hopeless" speaker-holics will appreciate these type of figures ). Ie; much less low bass / but a lot more resolution at what's there ( are you Japanese ? ).

- Want North American bass for the masses ? Buy some 123a-3(s) or 2213H(s) and enjoy the "plump but firm bassness" that they provide .
:o:
Well, I grew up listening to an 030 system which I still use today, 50-years later, in a stereo pair. You might say my ears are used to "much less low bass / but a lot more resolution..."

Thanks for the comments. If I buy them I'll never know what they could have sounded like since I'd be hesitant to try a re-surround. They'd likely need a recone which I figure on these would have to be done for love since it'd be hard to justify the money! :banghead:

[Audiobeer]

Even sadder when he's paid someone he says is listed as a JBL-authorized repair station to do it for him! :( (Winston Electronics, St. Louis, if you need to know.)

:banghead:

I had some woofers reconed by Winston......what a crap job!

[BMWCCA]

I had some woofers reconed by Winston......what a crap job!
FWIW, this is the reply I got from Winston (still listed on the JBL site as an authorized repair facility) when I asked them why the surround was put on the front:

The reason for gluing on the top of the cone is a sunken spider. This pulls the speaker back up. This does not effect the sound or acoustics of the speaker.
Now I know next to nothing about this but it would seem that putting the surround in front would, if anything, push the "speaker" downward. Is this a bunch of smoke and mirrors?

[Robh3606]

Now I know next to nothing about this but it would seem that putting the surround in front would, if anything, push the "speaker" downward. Is this a bunch of smoke and mirrors?

You sir get the common sense award.

Rob:applaud:

[Earl K]

Now I know next to nothing about this but it would seem that putting the surround in front would, if anything, push the "speaker" downward. Is this a bunch of smoke and mirrors?

- Your instincts are correct ( & the companies' "reasoning" is just smoke & mirrors, also, they have turned logic upside down ) .
- They should be spanked . ;)

- New foam on the out-side (instead of underneath ) typically sinks the cone further into the gap area ( that poor weakened, "sunken" spider just won't keep it out ). BTW, this is why full recones are recommended .

- The voice-coil ( when at rest ) starts from a static position that is off-set to where it ought to be. The voice-coil is no longer centered across the air gap .
- This means the driver will run out of cone travel faster than it was designed for, . This will result in more distortion / quicker / and you may just "bottom-out the coil " if you go searching for "More Bass".

- Now, you could try to make any purchase conditional upon your examining the le111a ( out of the box ) to see just how level the spider is. Take pictures of the le111a while they are balanced on their rim edge. Then post the pics here and let the jury decide .
- Who knows, maybe the foam Winstons uses is actually built in such a way so that it lifts the cone out of the gap ( therfore levelling the spider & voice-coil ). It would require an extra-high camfer to achieve this / but / I guess anything is possible. :p:
- Let's see some evidence of their claims . :D


:)

[boputnam]

The reason for gluing on the top of the cone is a sunken spider. This pulls the speaker back up. This does not effect the sound or acoustics of the speaker.Absolute crap. That is merely a rationalization for a lazy resurround. To do it proper - for this cone, on the rear - is time consuming and tedious. But, it ain't that hard. :no: They should be reported to JBL. Period. Further, Factory Authorized Centers will begin to learn their work is reported on, here - the good and the bad. Hopefully, improved quality control will result. :applaud:


- This means the driver will run out of cone travel faster than it was designed for, . This will result in more distortion / quicker / and you may just "bottom-out the coil " if you go searching for "More Bass".
Acutely true for this JBL vintage driver, with it's negative polarity - first impulse (+) will drive the cone inwards - in this case with less available travel. Almost surely to bottom out sooner. :biting:

[edgewound]

I fully concur with EarlK and Bo on this issue. It gives the whole service business a bad reputation when guy's like this spread absolute :bs: to try to justify their half-assed attempts at artful repair work...when what they are actually doing is ripping you off. Bad news travels faster than the good kind. This is the internet....ya know? Where everything you read is the truth:blink:

[BMWCCA]

Well, I wrote to JBL Customer Service and asked the same question. I'm not making any comment on the reply, other than to say he seems to be toeing the corporate line and gave an inconclusive opinion heavy with contitionals like "possible" and "usually". Here's what he replied:


Good afternoon and thank you for your inquiry. I can understand
the concern regarding your JBL L110 speakers. It's possible that
mounting the surround in this manner did correct the spider issue.
Unfortunately, because of issues like this, we usually do not recommend
that just the surrounds be replaced.
I hope this helps.

Sincerely,
Mark Tirotta
Internet Support Specialist

[4313B]

Well, I wrote to JBL Customer Service and asked the same question. I'm not making any comment on the reply, other than to say he seems to be toeing the corporate line and gave an inconclusive opinion heavy with contitionals like "possible" and "usually". Here's what he replied:Would you like my answer? I don't have to tow the corporate line.

Anything but a full recone on an 25+ year old L110 low frequency transducer is very probably a complete waste of time and money. It is highly doubtful that the suspension system is anywhere near original specification. Spider fatigue is very real. I've said this many times before and I think a few forum members have caught on. These transducers do have a lifecycle.

I'll be blunt - JBL does seem willing to continue support for alot of these ANCIENT loudspeaker systems. When we buy a recone kit we send a message to JBL that there are still people out here ready and willing to keep their legacy products functional. When we do stupid stuff like buy aftermarket kits and surrounds for our JBL systems when JBL has the correct replacement parts on the shelf we are doing a disservice to JBL owners everywhere. My point is, you either have what it takes to own and care for your JBL systems or you don't. If you don't, please don't feel bad about passing your JBL's on to someone who is ready and willing to step up to the plate and take ownership of the product and all that ownership entails.

[BMWCCA]

I agree completely, which is why I was surprised to read him saying they "usually do not recommend that just the surrounds be replaced". I'd have expected something more emphatic. My reference to "toeing the corporate line" was more in reference to the apparent tacit support of the action of their "authorized repair station", who mucked it up from the beginning.

Personally i'd love to show my support of JBL—not that my 50-years of ownership doesn't show that already—but they can't/won't/no longer can sell me a diaphragm for an 044!, and I won't consider a re-cone of my 128Hs because I know how they've been played in my bedroom for the past 22-years and if the foam hadn't crumbled they'd still be soothing me to sleep every night. The hardest they ever worked was when the Mac C20 used to send them an occasional tube "pop". My 030s are still trucking along on the original cones because...well, the D130s hardly move and there ain't no rubber in them!

And while we're on the topic: Does anyone know if JBL has improved the surrounds on their re-cone kits using modern foam that won't deteriorate, or do they use the EXACT same material they always have? Is the claim of the "aftermarket" kit people just more smoke and mirrors?

[edgewound]

Modern foam rots too...and the colored foam rots the fastest. Santoprene is more stable but is considerably stiffer so is not a good choice as a replacement surround...it will degrade the sonic performance of a woofer if the original surround was foam.

Some will say that butyl surrounds don't rot and crumble....that's right because they rot and crack.

The longest lasting surrounds seem to be the coated cloth.

Bottom line is that foam still sounds the best, because is has the highest internal damping and has a very high compliance.

[mike]

It would be nice if JBL supported this older stuff but since they sometimes don't you have to make due with what is available. JBL sends us a message when they discontinue recone kits and diaphragms for older transducers. I realize that it may not always make sense from a business standpoint to continue producing these parts that are in limited demand, but there are companies that do this because they actually have some regard for their older products.

Mike

[4313B]

I agree completely, which is why I was surprised to read him saying they "usually do not recommend that just the surrounds be replaced". I'd have expected something more emphatic.Certain cones, coils, and spiders no longer exist so in some instances a refoam is the only recourse. It's a category 3 - last resort. JBL won't even bother with refoaming their reference systems because they know the foam surrounds used now aren't the same spec as the foam surrounds back then. In other words - the reference systems are toast. It's pretty easy to see what level they are at. They won't use a 2006 surround on a 1990 transducer so gluing a surround to the front of a cone assembly that was originally designed for rear mount is out of the question.

Obviously it's all personal and anyone can do whatever they want.

[4313B]

JBL sends us a message when they discontinue recone kits and diaphragms for older transducers.The message isn't cryptic. No demand, no supply. There is also the fact that a certain supplier ceases to exist and the cost of finding a new supplier isn't worth the effort.

[4313B]

Update with respect to gluing a replacement foam surround on the wrong side of the cone assembly.

There is no problem with refoaming a legacy JBL transducer with the foam attached to the front of the cone instead of the the rear of the cone so long as the voice coil is separated from the cone and realigned to it's originally intended position. Not following this procedure will bias the spider and result in increased distortion.

Newer JBL transducers have the surround attached to the front of the cone. Attaching the surround to the rear of the cone of the legacy transducers became a standard after it was decided that those transducers looked better that way. In either case, depending on front or rear mounting of the surround, the entire moving assembly is manipulated accordingly.

Note that ultra low distortion transducer design and implementation is a very real force at JBL.