2242H Subs for Big Bass

[Mr. Widget]

Here are four dual 2242 cabs that I built for our friend Scott Fitlin. They will be used to blast a bit of extra bottom end into his Coney Island bumper car ride. Since they will not need to be loaded into trucks every day going to different venues we pulled out all the stops and built the hell out of these boxes. These cabinets loaded with the woofers are well over 350lbs each! As many DIYers know MDF is an excellent speaker box material as it is self damping (non-resonant). The only thing wrong with it is that it is about as structural as a wet noodle. This becomes more of an issue as the box grows in size. Internal bracing helps, but to maximize the sonic impact at low frequencies we decided to build the box with a double walled construction. The interior layer is 3/4" MDF that is constrained by an exterior layer of 3/4" Finply. The 13 ply all birch Finply is extremely stiff. The combination of the two materials gives us a cabinet that while too heavy for many applications is nearly sonically ideal. Additionally the cabinets are braced with 1.5" X 3.5" Finply braces.

Another unique feature that we employed was to make the cabinets user tunable. Since they were being built on the West Coast for an East Coast venue, we decided to give Scott the option of tuning the bottom end for his room and taste. There are two ports per woofer chamber and we have supplied two port lengths. If two long ports are used the speakers will have maximum VLF power and low bass extension. If two short ports are used the bass becomes punchier but at the cost of VLF. It is also possible to use one long and one short for an intermediate tuning.

These subwoofers will be shipping out in the next day or two... I don't think the whales off the coast of New York will know what hit them.

Widget

[Mr. Widget]

MDF layer and interior bracing.

[Mr. Widget]

Some Pics...

The top photo with the grille removed shows the upper left port removed. On top of the cabinet are examples of the short and long ports. The last photo is a detail shot showing the port detail.

Widget

[QwertyAccess]

beautiful, but 300 pounds!?!

[JuniorJBL]

How about a tall thin 2242 cab for one 2242 per cab, do you have a design?

This would be the best for my HT.:)

Those are awsome!!

[pelly3s]

I am going to have to take the trip down there and see scott and those boxes. beautiful work i must say. some of the best i have seen. what did you use to paint the boxes

[mikebake]

Boom badda boom, Scottie! I kinda remember the posts at the beginning of the decision, but refresh me on what, if anything, these replace?

[edgewound]

Changeable ports is a very cool feature:applaud: .

General Sherman would be proud. Nice work.:)

[louped garouv]

nice boxes....


you guys are so bad ass.... :D

how much power will they be fed?

[Mr. Widget]

...what did you use to paint the boxesI used an industrial coating called Zolatone. It is usually seen as a bi-colored finish, but it is available as an all black. It was popular in the 60's as an automotive trunk paint, and I've seen it on older Delta/Rockwell machinery. In the 80's it was used decoratively as a faux granite look. The stuff smells nasty and requires a pressure pot spray system... but it is really tough and gives a nice textured finish.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

WOW!

Those look sharp, and kind of big! Very nice, you were spot on about the perforated grills, Widget! It makes the difference.

Yes indeed they are HEAVY, my saying is, If it Dont Weigh Enough, It Dont Play Enough! They get installed once and stay where they play, so weight isnt an issue for me!

Oh I cant weight to get them, they look superb! The varible tuning option is going to allow me to dial it in to excatly what I want it to be, this is an awesome user option to be able to have!

I feel em, and hear em already, THANK YOU Widget! You make the best things!

:applaud:

[scott fitlin]

Boom badda boom, Scottie! I kinda remember the posts at the beginning of the decision, but refresh me on what, if anything, these replace?These 4 double 18in cabinets will be replacing my four single 18in J Horns.

The J Horns are MASSIVE folded horns standing up, firing down onto a scoop extension! They are HUGE, put out a tremendous amount of output, with relatively little power, but, they are muddy sounding, and lack the articulation I must have in my bottom end! One thing is that they stand 7ft tall, and no matter what, they are always at ear level, and the woofers they were made for are NLA. And nothing but what they were made for works quite right in them.

But I liked the AMOUNT of bottom end. So, what to do? Make boxes designed for the premium sub bass drivers made today, use quality amps that will drive them to satisfactory level, and have GREAT sub bass.

I love my JBL 2240 loaded corner scoops, so IMHO, if I had boxes made for the JBL 2242, I would have proper sounding low end with these too! I have heard the 42, its an outstanding woofer. Has that transient snap, kick, extension, power handling and pretty bulletproof!

I will determine what powers them when they get here and I will try several amps! Crest, and Crown! Whatever works and sounds best wins!

:D

[scott fitlin]

nice boxes....


you guys are so bad ass.... :D

how much power will they be fed?Not sure yet!

Thinking about maybe using a Crest 9001, 4 drivers per channel, 2ohm load, 825 watts per woofer?

Could also use two crown macro tech 3600,s, one box per channel!

Or 2 crest 8001,s.

Gotta see what sounds best to me in this room!

[stevem]

Widget,

Would enclosure walls of Plywood/MDF be a better choice for DIY speakers than veneered MDF? I'm thinking of using 1/2" veneered plywood glued to 1/2" MDF instead of 1" MDF. What's your opinion?

Another question. My box program doesn't seem to make any adjustments to Vb to compensate for braces. Is this because the "virtual volume" created by the fiberglass stuffing offsets the volume taken by the braces? If this is so, it seems a little inexact to me. How do you compensate for the bracing? Thanks.

[Mr. Widget]

... you were spot on about the perforated grills, Widget! It makes the difference.They look much nicer in person... reducing the picture size to fit the forum messes up the look of the perf.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Would enclosure walls of Plywood/MDF be a better choice for DIY speakers than veneered MDF? I'm thinking of using 1/2" veneered plywood glued to 1/2" MDF instead of 1" MDF. What's your opinion?First of all, not all plywood is the same. Typical American plywood uses 5-7 layers of fir. More and more I am finding imported plywoods with a much lighter and less structural core material. If you use a veneered birch plywood (face veneered in the wood of choice with an all birch interior) you will have the best results. Basically you want a very stiff outer constraining layer. For the inside, I'd stick with 3/4" MDF. You will end up with a wall thickness of 1 1/4", but I think it would be worth the weight and extra size. If they are small speakers say L100 sized or smaller, then I suppose 1/2" MDF would be fine... still with adequate bracing.



Another question. My box program doesn't seem to make any adjustments to Vb to compensate for braces. Is this because the "virtual volume" created by the fiberglass stuffing offsets the volume taken by the braces? If this is so, it seems a little inexact to me. How do you compensate for the bracing?I use BB 6Pro. It does allow for bracing as well as differing amounts of fill. It is still imprecise. All of these programs give you is a very good guess. Ultimately I measure the results and tweak. Of course a few years ago, before I had my Clio rig... I took the results from BB 6Pro and was satisfied.


Widget

[scott fitlin]

They look much nicer in person... reducing the picture size to fit the forum messes up the look of the perf.


WidgetYeah, but even online, they look like they mean buisiness!

Mean looking!

Stepping in to the 2006 season, with heavy JBL artillery, MAKIN SOME BOOM BOOM!

:bouncy:

[JuniorJBL]

Mr. Widget

What is the frame of the grill made out of ? How is it attached to the perf. And is your perf metal?

[Mr. Widget]

You want all of my secrets??? :D



Widget

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
Having spent many hours at the table saw myself I can truly say
those are excellent cabinets! Nicely done with a pro finish.

Mike Caldwell

[JuniorJBL]

You want all of my secrets??? :D



Widget No just some!!:D

I was just more curious then anything. I have some 5051 1/4 perf that I was going to make sub grills out of.:)

[Mr. Widget]

I was just more curious then anything. I have some 5051 1/4 perf that I was going to make sub grills out of.:)I was kidding. ;)It is a fairly thick aluminum perf (1/16" I think... I bought it a while ago.) with an aluminum extrusion frame. There is also an aluminum "U" channel that is in the center. The whole thing is pretty rigid and is screwed in to the cabinet on foam covered stand offs. I am also using rubber washers to reduce the likelihood of buzzing.


Widget

[Mike Caldwell]

With perf screen you have figure on what the total open area is. The smaller holes closer together works out to be the best, less wasted area between the holes. While harder to get hex shaped holes offer the best open area. The perf on those subs looks to be about the size I use and that is in the mid 60% total open area.

Mike Caldwell

[JuniorJBL]

I was kidding. ;)It is a fairly thick aluminum perf (1/16" I think... I bought it a while ago.) with an aluminum extrusion frame. There is also an aluminum "U" channel that is in the center. The whole thing is pretty rigid and is screwed in to the cabinet on foam covered stand offs. I am also using rubber washers to reduce the likelihood of buzzing.


Widget

So you welded it to the back of your extrusion ? It is a very nice looking frame/grille.

Very nice work Mr. Widget.:applaud:

[scott fitlin]

I love them already, can`t wait for them to get here!

:thmbsup:

[stevem]

First of all, not all plywood is the same. Typical American plywood uses 5-7 layers of fir. More and more I am finding imported plywoods with a much lighter and less structural core material. If you use a veneered birch plywood (face veneered in the wood of choice with an all birch interior) you will have the best results. Basically you want a very stiff outer constraining layer. For the inside, I'd stick with 3/4" MDF. You will end up with a wall thickness of 1 1/4", but I think it would be worth the weight and extra size. If they are small speakers say L100 sized or smaller, then I suppose 1/2" MDF would be fine... still with adequate bracing.

I use BB 6Pro. It does allow for bracing as well as differing amounts of fill. It is still imprecise. All of these programs give you is a very good guess. Ultimately I measure the results and tweak. Of course a few years ago, before I had my Clio rig... I took the results from BB 6Pro and was satisfied.


Widget

Thanks, Widget. My boxes are going to be fairly tall (about 5 feet), so I'll need the 3/4" MDF. Are you suggesting 1/2" ply on top of that? Now all I have to do is figure out how to attach the ply to the MDF without getting glue all over the place and keeping the joints nice and neat!

[Mr. Widget]

My boxes are going to be fairly tall (about 5 feet), so I'll need the 3/4" MDF. Are you suggesting 1/2" ply on top of that? Now all I have to do is figure out how to attach the ply to the MDF without getting glue all over the place and keeping the joints nice and neat!Yeah that's a big box... I'd consider doing them like I did Scott's woofers with 3/4" Ply on top. When you rap your knuckles on the sides it is remarkably dead.

If you can't veneer the finished cabs, you'll need lots of clamps.


Widget

[andresohc]

Mr. Widget, when you sandwich the MDF to the ply how do keep from getting voids between the panels (that would resonate). I have considered this technique but cant come up with a good solution.
Yeah that's a big box... I'd consider doing them like I did Scott's woofers with 3/4" Ply on top. When you rap your knuckles on the sides it is remarkably dead.

If you can't veneer the finished cabs, you'll need lots of clamps.


Widget

[dieterj]

:applaud: Great Project Widget!!!

I hope Scott tell us later about the Sound of this great looking Subs in his Place.

[Mr. Widget]

Mr. Widget, when you sandwich the MDF to the ply how do keep from getting voids between the panels (that would resonate). I have considered this technique but cant come up with a good solution.The method I use requires that the speakers be veneered after construction or painted in this case. I use a ton of standard wood glue and a pile of Senco narrow crown staples. There are no voids... it is very solid.

With ingenuity and care, it would be possible to use clamps if you were to try to use pre-veneered plywood.


Widget

[Jan Daugaard]

What is the internal volume for every 2242?

[Mr. Widget]

What is the internal volume for every 2242?Each 2242 is in an 8 cu ft. sub enclosure. The ports are tuned to ~30Hz, ~35Hz, and ~40Hz.


Widget

[loach71]

Widget - from your last posting you mentioned each of the 4 ports in your cabinet was tuned to a different frequency? Does this multiple resonance alignment smooth out the overall response peaks?

thanks!:applaud:

[Mr. Widget]

No, and no. You can only have one tuning per box. First of all, for the purposes of tuning these four subwoofers are essentially 8 unique systems. If you choose to use one long and one short port in 1 one of the systems it is effectively tuned to ~35Hz.

I suppose if you tuned some of the woofers to ~30Hz, some to ~35Hz and the remainder to ~40Hz it would smooth the overall system resonances. It would be best to do this with separate amps for each tuned set since the combined impedance load and phase response with multiple tunings could get interesting. I have wired each woofer independently so that they can be powered in parallel, series/parallel, or independently.


Widget

[4313B]

What is the 2242H spacing? Where do they start to mutually couple?

[Mr. Widget]

What is the 2242H spacing? Where do they start to mutually couple?Not sure, and not sure. I am certain that within the passband that they will be operating, a stacked pair of cabinets will have all four 2242s mutually coupling.


Widget

[4313B]

It should be fun to play around with the spacing of the two pairs to affect the point where mutual coupling occurs. Scott might find he doesn't need any VLF EQ simply by lowering the coupling frequency.

Once again, these are very nice Mr. Widget.

Four dual boxes should be stunning. That's just a whole lot of driver. They're so ungodly loud and clean and clear. Of course Scott's place might be huge. I'll have to check it out when I make my trip to N.Y. this summer.

[scott fitlin]

It should be fun to play around with the spacing of the two pairs to affect the point where mutual coupling occurs. Scott might find he doesn't need any VLF EQ simply by lowering the coupling frequency.

Once again, these are very nice Mr. Widget.

Four dual boxes should be stunning. That's just a whole lot of driver. They're so ungodly loud and clean and clear. Of course Scott's place might be huge. I'll have to check it out when I make my trip to N.Y. this summer.But, basically, that IS what I want. Clear, and articulate sub bass, with gargantuan impact, and good extension. Clean bass that sounds great, no mud, no blur.

The JBL 2242 IS the Premium woofer of choice. JBL! :D

[4313B]

no mud, no blurThese are JBL's - mud in, mud out, blur in, blur out. The source is the weakest link, the strongest is the JBL. They're made to be that way.

Of course, you already know that. ;)

[scott fitlin]

These are JBL's - mud in, mud out, blur in, blur out. The source is the weakest link, the strongest is the JBL. They're made to be that way.

Of course, you already know that. ;)True, but my point was, what im using now WILL NEVER play clearly enough. The folded horns these are replacing are just not what I wanted them to be. However, my JBL tweeters, horns, and corner loaded 18in scoops DO play clear. Whatever you put in, is what comes out! Put in great source, hear great music, put in terrible source material, hear all the flaws clearly!

Plus, these are designed to handle some power, and I want to put power into them. The J Horns werent designed for todays woofers, and todays amplification, nor do they work well with todays stuff.

Ive heard many things out there, and JBL still has the BEST bottom of em all!

:bouncy:

[loach71]

MDF layer and interior bracing.
Nice box Widget!
I am building an enclosure for two 2245H's (24 cu ft) - essentially two times the size of Greg Timber's 12 cu ft box, tuned to 20Hz. I am planning to NOT separate the enclosure into two partitions like you did here.

Is there any particular reason that you partitioned your enclosure? Reduction of cross driver intermodulation?

cheers!

[4313B]

Best practice is one driver per volume. We've gone over this dozens of times.

[scott fitlin]

It should be fun to play around with the spacing of the two pairs to affect the point where mutual coupling occurs. Scott might find he doesn't need any VLF EQ simply by lowering the coupling frequency.

Once again, these are very nice Mr. Widget.

Four dual boxes should be stunning. That's just a whole lot of driver. They're so ungodly loud and clean and clear. Of course Scott's place might be huge. I'll have to check it out when I make my trip to N.Y. this summer.My room is 90`L x 50`W. These cabinets will be going across the room from me, 2 on the Surf Av end of the room, the other two at the back end of the room. Both will be firing the width, not the length of my room, short throw.

Giskard, when you say play with the frequency at which mutual coupling occurs, do you mean space the area between the cabinets? Please elaborate, I want to understand this more. I intended to stack 2 cabinets, 1 ontop of the other. Is there a better way? Possibly side by side?

Also, are there any advantages to putting the cabinet that sits on the floor on spikes? I have read so much about this, but have no idea if this works for what Im doing.

[4313B]

do you mean space the area between the cabinets?Yes. You are simply adjusting the distance between the pairs of woofers. The farther apart they are the lower the frequency at which they start to couple.

are there any advantages to putting the cabinet that sits on the floor on spikes?I used spikes with my 4430's and the difference was significant. Several years ago during a move I decided that I didn't want to hassle with setting up the spikes at the new house. That lasted about a week. I don't think spikes are going to work with the weight you are dealing with unless you use a bunch of them.

[scott fitlin]

Interesting! I can play with this, till I get what I think sounds the best, I have the room to do it too!

Then, have spacers built to sit in between the top and bottom cabs. Ill have to order some spike sets, would rather do this before I put em in place! Dont really want to be lifting these too many times. My back will thank me.

I will definitely play with this one! Thank you for the info, :D

[scott fitlin]

I don't think spikes are going to work with the weight you are dealing with unless you use a bunch of them.4 spikes, 1 per corner isnt enough?

The spikes will be sitting on a wood floor, isnt the theory about coupling the cabinet to the floor, and the weight of the cabinet being concentrated via the spikes to such a small area, supposed to actually make the cabinet and floor one?

[4313B]

Yeah but you are dealing with a 350 pound box. I guess you'll just have to try it. I'm sure there are spikes out there that can handle that weight, I just don't know of any. I used six per 4430. Three across the front and three across the back. I'd put steel discs underneath them otherwise they'll just dig into the wood or concrete floor over time.

[scott fitlin]

Yeah but you are dealing with a 350 pound box. I guess you'll just have to try it. I'm sure there are spikes out there that can handle that weight, I just don't know of any. I used six per 4430. Three across the front and three across the back.400lbs, loaded! Then, 2 cabinets stacked = 800lbs.

Its lighter than the 1000lbs of two J Horns! :D

But, spikes up to the task of supporting 800lbs may present a bit of a problem!

I guess the ones parts express have wont be robust enough?

I could have custom milled larger and heavier duty than normally available made for me at a machine shop. OTOH, they make spikes for things like Wilson Grand Slamms, and they weigh in big time, so somebody makes something for this kind of weight, somewhere!

:)

[Robh3606]

Use a machine bolt like a 3/8 and have the tips shaped the way you like. That should handle the weight.

Rob:)

[scott fitlin]

I have two local machine shops here, anything I need can be fabricated!

:)

[edgewound]

Spikes are meant to isolate or decouple the speaker enclosure from the floor and the room structure, and rigidly keep it in place so it doesn't "walk" around. If you want it to "become one" with the floor...set it on the floor.

[scott fitlin]

I guess I have a bit of experimentation ahead of me.

Play with this, play with that, set it up one way, space em this way, whatever sounds best wins.

Thanks, everyone, for all the helpful tips and info. :D

[Zilch]

Spikes are meant to isolate or decouple the speaker enclosure from the floor and the room structure, and rigidly keep it in place so it doesn't "walk" around. If you want it to "become one" with the floor...set it on the floor.I asked the question whether the intent of spikes was to couple or decouple from the floor several months ago:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84140&#post84140

Can't say I understand it yet.... :p

[edgewound]

I asked the question whether the intent of spikes was to couple or decouple from the floor several months ago:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84140&#post84140

Can't say I understand it yet.... :p



It would be exactly the same as vibration-isolation of heavy machinery on a factory floor. With speakers it's to prevent audio smearing from floor/wall vibrations interacting with the sound waves.

[Earl K]

I asked the question whether the intent of spikes was to couple or decouple from the floor several months ago:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...140&#post84140

Can't say I understand it yet....

- Two Schools of thought are at play here .
- Both are committed to reducing "audio smearing" .
- Permit my paraphrasing of the lessons I think I've learned .

(#1) Drain excess energy into something that has more mass ( ie; through spikes into a solid floor ) . I believe that people like Jean ( B&K man ) / Giskard / Steve Schell ( he's a piano tuner ) subscribe to this approach. If I was doing either of the two , this is what I would try first . ( I hope the name attachments are correct and not out of line ).

(#2) Contain ( isolate ) excess energy within the device producing it. A person like Jean will tell you that this approach can lead to signal "bloom" ( because the excess energy can't go anywhere ). I would say, this approach only works up to a certain db level and then physics takes over as the whole "sheebanng" wants to levitate itself .

Those are my thoughts ( as gleaned from others ) <> :)

[loach71]

Best practice is one driver per volume. We've gone over this dozens of times.

What is the specific reason?:blink:

[scott fitlin]

OH BOY!

Going to JFK to pick up the subs, they will be in my possesion in an hour or two!

Todays Wedensday, should have em working by tomorrow, move some air this weekend! :D

We even got the good truck with the big liftgate. 2000lbs? Feh, no problema. :applaud:

[edgewound]

Careful with those big guns, Scotty.

I have a feeling we'll be feeling your tremors out here on the "other side":applaud: :D

[John]

:useless:

I know we had some at the start of this thread but I need more, much more!!! Scott buy a camera please.:banghead:

[4313B]

What is the specific reason?:blink:Minimize transducer interaction. It's a "best practice" as opposed to a deal breaker or show stopper. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

[loach71]

Minimize transducer interaction. It's a "best practice" as opposed to a deal breaker or show stopper. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
Thanks for the info.
I've modeled both ways on BB6 Pro and WinISD and havent seen much difference in the repsonse curves between the "two drivers per box volume" and "one driver per box volume" methods. maybe there are some intermodulation issues with using "two drivers per box volume"...

:) On to the cabinet making (ouch these are HEAVY)

[4313B]

Those programs won't model the fact that no two transducers are identical.

[louped garouv]

no two transducers are identical.

I thought that was why 'matched pairs' command top dollar.... ;)

[scott fitlin]

Phew! Getting them was easy! We get to Forward Air near JFK, we back our truck right into the loading dock, the guy literally drives all four pallets right into the truck with a forklift! We get going back to Brooklyn, we get back here, we have a 4000lb liftgate on the truck, LIFE is good.

Taking down the humongous J Horns, oh well, they had their moment! But, you know, Widgets boxes are about as heavy as each J Horn top! But MUCH denser, man, rapping your knuckles on Widgets cabinets is like rapping your knuckles on concrete! These suckers are dense, heavy, and solid as rock.

Tomorrow, they go into place, get wired up, and testing, and tweaking begin, as well as first impressions! After a nice week or two of pounding, then Ill begin to really listen and form my opinion! Gotta break em in.

Must say, they look incredible, well built, and dense as no other cabinet I have ever had the pleasure of owning. And, yes, I really do need a digital cam, badly.

:D

[dieterj]

Hello Scott,

Now you've great looking and building Subs with Jbl inside. :D

Please can you tell us more later about the Sound and which Amps you try?

:applaud:

[scott fitlin]

First they have to be installed, which we are working on right now. Since J Horns took up 14 and 16 ft of length on the catwalks, when we took em down, floor needs to be painted, as we painted this winter, so, got to make everything look nice. Then we are cutting the wall, to be able to go back the additional 3 inches, as the way this place was originally set up and built, you only have 27in width on the catwalks around the perimeter of the floor/track. The catwalks are about 5-6in higher than the floor and this is where the WidgetWonders will reside, and do what they do.

Amps? For starters, I have Crest 7001,s and 8001,s and Crown Macro Tech 3600,s to try out on them! Two amps required, 1 cab per channel two woofers, 4 ohm load. Lets the chips fall where they fall, whatever sounds best is what I will use. If I want, I can also do a Crest 9001, run at 2 ohms, 4 drivers per channel, which will also work, FWIW, I like the wetter sound, of 2 ohm sub bass, if you have an amp that is up to the task. But, again, whatever works best with these new cabinets and woofers is what dictates what I use.

Gotta tell you, though, these cabinets are really, really dense. The MOST solid cabinet I have ever seen. In comparison, although my J Horns are big and loud, they arent anywhere nearly as well built. Cheap plywood construction, you knock on the box, and it rings. Not good. Widgets boxes are dead, so, you wont hear anything but the music, and thats as it should be. Not to mention, they look classy! Tapered edges, where alot of cabinet makers leave sharp corners and edges. Widget pays attention to the details.

Someone should order a dozen more of these from him! He would love that, :rotfl:

[scott fitlin]

So, two cabs are in place, the other two go into position tomorrow. But I had to hook em up, and put a little signal through them, had to!

Quite different sounding from my scoops and small W bins, the horns have that accentuated kick, great upper bass and bass drive, but not real sub bass.

The WidgetWoofers give me SUB BASS, and clean sub bass. Nice musical sound, I have them on a crown 2402 for the moment, but its not really enough power for them. These things LIKE power, and will sound good with power. It does do what I predicted it to do, put sub bass in the center of the room with my customers. Unlike the long throw J Horns that were in this position, Im not bombarded with bottom behind my console like i used to be, but I can hear them quite well, and they are clean, they go down, and hit that LOW NOTE. And when you get close to them you feel the wind, but they dont offend the ears. I played some music with really good deep bass, and I could feel the air shake, and I liked it, clean and deep. You can hear out to the corners and the middle clearly, no cancellation, and the KICK and rythmic upper bass of my horns and the sub bass of the Widgets combine nicely.

Of course, no where near finished, they need to all be hooked up, ultimate positioning found, and room tuned, etc, and of course, POWER, we want POWER! After the weekend, break out the bigger Crests and the Crown 3600,s! 2 crown 3600,s might be the deal. Two crest 8001,s might be great.

For sure, I hit some notes I havent heard in here, quite the same way! So far so good.

This much I know for sure already, they are clean, and not muddy like the J Horns were, I like these boxes, OH, and the density of the cabinet is fantastic. No resonance, no smearing, you hear the bass in the recordings, not the box. Noticed that right away!

:D

[Rusnzha]

It almost makes me want to move back to New York so I could go check out your Widgets and hit some of those rides again!

[speakerdave]

Scotty, I'd be interested to know what soundware you are using to check those things out.

David

[hapy._.face]

...I used an industrial coating called Zolatone. It is usually seen as a bi-colored finish, but it is available as an all black. It was popular in the 60's as an automotive trunk paint, and I've seen it on older Delta/Rockwell machinery.

Hi Widget.

Older thread, but I must tell you: These are LOVELY!!
:thmbsup: :thmbsup: :thmbsup:

BTW, Zolatone is the original paint found inside all the vintage Airstream travel trailors, too. I was told it had mild sound damping characteristics as an added benefit. Tough stuff!!

[scott fitlin]

I wanted to bring this thread back up, as I am now re-installing the cabinets Widget made for me. I have been testing them out in my warehouse, and they really are THAT good.

I actually can listen to these on their own, and they sound good, unlike my folded horns, which only sound decent when everything else is on too, but, truthfully, the old folded horns are too much of a one note sound, and dont do really deep bass all that great.

One thing I leaned about these is that unlike my vintage high efficiency stuff, these things need power. Lots of power, but, feed em right, and they sing. Really good definition, and that nice, but clean transient snap.

I am trying to decide on amps to power them, and I found something I sort of dismissed before. Todays music is very different from yesterdays music, the low end is much deeper in frequency, and when i used these, I ran them on Crown Macro tech 3600,s. I actually didnt love this amp, wasnt tight enough for my taste. I tried a Crown I Tech 8000, and I was really quite impressed with what I heard. Not as fat as the older traditional class AB amps, but, and this was an ear opener, when playing todays digital music, with very low frequency content, I thought it sounded way tighter, and much more " right " than with the Crown 3600. The 3600 just makes the subs sound too fat, and too muddy. The I Tech had the tight punch, and control when playing todays music, and the 2242,s really fucking kicked.

I have a Lab Gruppen being sent for demo, Im told the Labs sound terrific. Ill find out soon! I know these are a major choice in the pro sector.

Widgets JBL loaded cabinets really opened up on the Crown I Tech, I was very surprised.

:)

[Zilch]

Ill tell you this, one thing the speakers of yesteryear, the great ones, had over todays speakers, is transient response. Todays subs take more power, but they dont have that fast snap that used to make bass come to life. In my opinion. I find most of todays sub woofers too garbled sounding, yeah they go down deep, but they have no articulation, and speed, that nimbleness that lets you visualize the instrument and player.Well, I was concerned.... ;)

[scott fitlin]

Well, the JBL 2242,s dont sound like the old 2240,s to me, and the `40,s had more of a midbass snap to them, but dont go down as low as the `42,s!

I had several amps on Widgets cabs this winter, the Crown 3600, and 5002, and Crest 8001,s, and they all made alot of sound, but, still lacked that snap, and tightness that I like to hear. Actually, the crowns were muddier than the crest to my ears.

It was suggested to me to try one of todays high power amps, from the newer lines, and I did. And the I Tech sounds tight, and fast like the way music used to sound years ago, on the amps of that day.

Todays CD,s and downloads need alot of power to brinng the bottom end up to level. I still love the kick that my scoops and small W horns make, but, they dont make really deep bass, and Widgets cabs do. And the depth adds something special to music reproduction.

With the I tech, the speed of the bass was impressive, and finally, I got the transient response I was looking for. The impact was also stunning. But, unlike yeserdays drivers and cabinets, this was so much more power to get to the desired goal.

But, I think I finally found something I really like. It just took a hell of alot more power to get there.

I tell you this, these cabinets play down deep, and do it clean, and the cabinets are so dense you dont hear any rattling, no vibration, just sub bass.

[scott fitlin]

Well, I was concerned.... ;)Its a learning curve for me too. Im learning how to use newer stuff that sounds better with todays music.

But, my 2402,s and Crown D-75,s still work flawlessly!

:D

[allen mueller]

I don't want to go off topic, but i had read over on the Live audio board that the I Techs were having some problems. You may want to see if they have fixed the problems.

On topic I bet the new subs sound great, I have to make some time and drive up to here them.

Allen

[scott fitlin]

Yeah, I hear about this also. That why Im also auditioning Lab Gruppen.

I also want to try some QSC.

What I know for now, is that for these subs to deliver what I want, I am going to need power.

But, with the right amp, the ported subs can sound really tight, with alot of slam.

[johnaec]

So when do we finally get to see pics of your bumpercar system? ('Been waiting over 2 years... :p )

John

BTW - ProMedia/UltraSound used to use Crest amps exclusively, but have recently starting using Lab Gruppen's also.

John

[scott fitlin]

In September, I will install all the new stuff, and then I will finally post pics online.

Right now Im just too busy to start tearing things apart.

All the major pro sound companies are using Lab Gruppen. QSC also has high respect in the pro world for sound quality, and reliability. Crowns new amps have that Crown sound, but only gets sketchy marks for reliability. The one thing I hear most about the I Techs is they are glitchy. DSP programming just has bugs I guess.

I will be changing out processing too. Going back to Crown MX-4,s and a Crown VFX-2A, THIS DOES WORK!

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
I have heard the same thing about the I Techs, and they will add some latency delay due to the internal DSP that could effect overall system time alignment.
The QSC PL6 is rated at about 2000 into four ohms, a friend of mine uses one of them on a pair of EAW subs with very good results. The QSC PL9 is rated at 3500 into four ohms, it's now out of production but can still be found. It was taken out of production due to intermittent power supply quirks that could not be traced to any one cause.
Another amp to look at would be a Camco Vortex.

Mike Caldwell

[boputnam]

The one thing I hear most about the I Techs is they are glitchy. Not what my source told. They reported the I Tech's wouldn't sustain their rated power output for any time at all. I was told to "put a meter on them and send 'em 200Hz (or whatever...) and watch the power output just fade...".

This was from, shall we say, a potentially sizeable buyer of whatever - they completely know the gear and thoroughly test everything (particularly the stuff they don't buy...).

[scott fitlin]

Not what my source told. They reported the I Tech's wouldn't sustain their rated power output for any time at all. I was told to "put a meter on them and send 'em 200Hz (or whatever...) and watch the power output just fade...".

This was from, shall we say, a potentially sizeable buyer of whatever - they completely know the gear and thoroughly test everything (particularly the stuff they don't buy...).I know they dont really put out 4000wpc@4ohms. But the amp did make the 2242,s come to life.

I also getting ready to listen to a Lab, and the QSC PL6. As for the PL6, my freind Shorty used them to power some Levan Horns ( JBL 2242 loaded ) he sold a club in Acapulco, a place called Palladium, and he said the punch was unF&^king believable, and the reliability was 100% industrial workhorse. So, this amp is also a big consideration. Another big thing in QSC,s favor is their service and warranty. Known to be the best. You got an amp with problems, it gets taken care of, PERIOD! Crowns service since they were taken over has pissed many pros off.

It will come down to whatever sounds the best, thats all there is to it.

But I woke up, and once I fed these woofers in Widgets well built cabinets, I saw what the deal is. They come alive with the right power, they sound great with big power, and the sub bass from them will be incredible once installed and set up correctly.

One thing that truly impresses me with the JBL 2242, is the clean sound with high power, and it never sounds objectionable. But they need high power, I feel more than the Crown 3600, at least for me.

[scott fitlin]

Im also going back to ALL Crown crossovers, that wass the best sound I ever had, MX-4,s and a modified VFX-2A. And with this, I can do higher power in my full range, as in Brystons on my 15,s and horns.

We tried the MX-4,s driving Bryston amps, at Shortys house in his system. Hes a Bryston freak, and we compared the same amps and speakers, with both the Bryston 10B,s and the Crown MX-4,s. I loved the way the Brystons sounded with the MX-4,s driving them, really grand.

Crossovers have a huge effect on the systems voice.

[allen mueller]

I loved my crown vfx-2a until it broke. Something with the power supply, I havn't had time to fix it yet though. I'm using a BSS FDS 360 with 18db slopes now and like that alot also. I agree the crossover has a huge impact on the overall sound.


Allen

[scott fitlin]

Well, well, I got my hands on a QSC PL6II, I tested it out as best I could. NICE amp, tons of punch, maybe not as much grunt as the Crowns, but really super tight and punchy, what I call a lean, mucular bottom end with sharply defined basslines. I was seriously impressed. The 2242,s handled the PL6 with absolutely no problem whatsoever.

I havent recieved the Lab Gruppen yet, BUT, unless its so dramatically superior sonically to whats available from the US, I would be inclined to keep my components American IF I can! One thing stands to reason for sure, QSC PowerLights are American made, QSC has the BEST reputation for standing behind their product, everyone praises QSC for their service and turnaround times, and after all, its American made with the manufacturer right here in our backyard!

The QSC blew the doors off the Crown I Tech! I liked this amp with the JBL 2242,s in Widgets cabinets, I really did!

Bombastic! :thmbsup:

[louped garouv]

glad you have been having some 'you time' lately Scott....



I am trying to get my grubby little hands on a pair of 2242Gs right now...

I think i would be all set then....

[scott fitlin]

I ordered a QSC PL6.0II to drive the subs, my body and ears said this one kicked ass.

:D

[mikebake]

I ordered a QSC PL6.0II to drive the subs, my body and ears said this one kicked ass.

:D
Give it a very stiff power supply.

[scott fitlin]

Definitely! The amp will be on its own 30 amp breaker, nothing else on that circuit.

My AC power runs pretty good, never drops below 119v, except last week, during the heatwave, when the utility deliberately cut power back, and then I had 111v.

I should be able to run this amp with no problems.

It does kick ass, really punches out that bottom. Its also supposed to be really terrific with 2 ohm loads. Which is how I will be running the amp, 4 woofers per channel. Nominal 875 watts per driver.

:D

[steveh]

[quote=scott fitlin]Im also going back to ALL Crown crossovers, that wass the best sound I ever had, MX-4,s and a modified VFX-2A. And with this, I can do higher power in my full range, as in Brystons on my 15,s and horns.


Scott, could you explain what was done to the VFX-2A to modify it:blink: ? Your new Widget Builts are in a league of their own, congratulations.

[scott fitlin]

[quote=scott fitlin]Im also going back to ALL Crown crossovers, that wass the best sound I ever had, MX-4,s and a modified VFX-2A. And with this, I can do higher power in my full range, as in Brystons on my 15,s and horns.


Scott, could you explain what was done to the VFX-2A to modify it:blink: ? Your new Widget Builts are in a league of their own, congratulations.Yes, I can tell you this, it is really quite simple, and even the techs said Crown should have offered the VFX-2A like this years ago.

I had 4 front panel output level attenuators added to the unit. since I am a fan of running my amp front panel level controls wide open, I wanted to be able to control level from the xover. And, now I can use the balanced input with its adjustable input gain, and balance out level wise at the crossovers.

My service tech offered me several options on the mods as well. Output gain, output buffers, and they used the BEST Clarostat conductive plastic pots available., and the aluminum knobs from a Crown Macro Tech amp. Looks factory, and works amazing!

Its a great xover, and some say it can benefit from upgrading parts too. Ill tell you this though, as a crossover for subs and tweeters, which is what I will be doing with it, its unparralled in its complete flexibility. Even for adding subs to an existing system, it offers the user complete freedom to choose the freq you need. You can do as much overlap as you want, or as little. So, you could cut your subs in at 100hz, or whatever you choose, then run your full range from 30hz on up. You just cant do this with any other crossover.

I happen to love the way this old unit sounds, we had it like this years ago, and now, it, ( a used one I got off ebay, recently modded and checked out ) is goin back to work. It will drive a QSC PL6.0II which will be the engine to run the Widgies!

Should be BODACIOUS! In my warehouse, the 6.0II had the whole building shakin.

:)

[scott fitlin]

Just took delivery of a BRAND spanking new QSC PL6.0II for my WidgetMaster subs. Nice BIG amplifier, with the capability to deliver me to LF heaven.

:D

[hmolwitz]

Took the lad to the Eldorado today (he is 10) for a run on the bumper cars, went around 3 times, they definitely seem faster than others I have been on, and though I failed to schedule my own musical selections, the system sounded very good, the whole system was clear and loud, but not too loud, stressed or overdriven in any way. The bass was excellent.
Thanks Scotty for a nice visit, the staff was very nice.
Spoke to one fellow said he had been there 9 years, which find I find remarkable for a seasonal place, that says something good about you Scott.

Lived so close, and I had never been to Coney Island, kind of like a church fair on steroids, I am glad I made the trip.

Even got a hot dog@ Nathans for the lad and walked the Boardwalk.
Thanks
Harry

[hjames]

Visit to the Eldorado ...

How late does the season go for the ride - or for Coney Island in general?
Is it strictly a summer thing, or does it go into fall?

[hmolwitz]

After Labor Day I think it is weekends only, I think they are done for the season now. They are doing some ?upgrades/redevelopement? to Coney Island so the schedule was shortened I think they usually go later into the Fall.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/18/nyregion/18coney.html
Scotty will have the full story I am sure if he checks in.
I would like to hear more about the project if he gets a chance.

Coney Island update (http://www.gatago.org/rec/roller-coaster/58968987.html)
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Date: 05-09-2007 (http://www.gatago.org/rec/roller-coaster/05-09-2007.html) |
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This past weekend was the last for the Zipper and the Spider - they
were taken down on Monday.

Astroland will be partially open next weekend (supposedly kiddie rides
only). The last fireworks of the season will be this Friday night
(9/7) at 9:30.

The rezoning hearing which was scheduled for this month has been
pushed to October (assumedly so that more behind the scenes deals/
talks can happen).

No one on any of the Thor controlled properties (which includes all of
the boardwalk storefronts) have been given any signals as to leases
for next season.

At this point, the only amusement properties open next season will be:
Deno's Amusement Park
12th Street Amusements
El Dorado Auto Skooter

I'll post more as it happens.

Here's an article about the removal of the Zipper and the Spider:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09052007/news/regionalnews/ride_over_for_coney_classics.htm

September 5, 2007 -- Two longtime Coney Island rides were shut down
yesterday to be sent overseas, the latest casualties of a developer's
stalled bid to bring a $1.5 billion entertainment complex to the
amusement district.

Workers yesterday began dismantling the Spider and Zipper rides near
the West 12th Street shoreline, so both could be sent to an amusement
park in Honduras.

The workers said the rides' operator opted to sell the attractions
after being unable to obtain a land-lease extension with developer
Joseph Sitt, who owns 10 acres in the heart of the amusement district
but is having difficulty getting city approval for his controversial
project.

The news had other boardwalk businesses concerned that they, too,
won't be getting lease extensions for 2008 and that even more of
Sitt's property, such as Astroland Park, will be cleared and boarded
up come next summer. That was the fate before this season of the once-
popular batting cages, miniature golf course and go-kart tracks on
Stillwell Avenue.

"I think people are in denial about what we're facing for next year,"
said Dianna Carlin, the owner of Lola Staar Souvenir Boutique on the
boardwalk.

But a Sitt spokesman yesterday said the developer won't let Coney
Island become a ghost town and there will be plenty of amusements in
future years.

Harry

[johnaec]

Here's video of a news story about it, including comments by Scott and his father: http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=154197

John

[hjames]

VERY cool, thanks for that link!


Here's video of a news story about it, including comments by Scott and his father: http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=154197

John

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yeah I was with Scotty when it came on the news.

Its a sign of the times but I dont think Scotty's budging.

Ian

[JBL 4645]

No, and no. You can only have one tuning per box. First of all, for the purposes of tuning these four subwoofers are essentially 8 unique systems. If you choose to use one long and one short port in 1 one of the systems it is effectively tuned to ~35Hz.

I suppose if you tuned some of the woofers to ~30Hz, some to ~35Hz and the remainder to ~40Hz it would smooth the overall system resonances. It would be best to do this with separate amps for each tuned set since the combined impedance load and phase response with multiple tunings could get interesting. I have wired each woofer independently so that they can be powered in parallel, series/parallel, or independently.


Widget

Widget

That’s an interesting design and is it possible to have more than 2 ports for tuning say down to 20Hz?

I’m interested in getting a few if I can save up a few bob for JBL 2235H 15” and would like enclosure best suited for each one. I have no idea how to go about this I just listen that’s all. I may have to get a hi-fi store to knock up an MDF type enclosure for given price and MDF doesn’t cost much. It’s the time that one has to spend on building it.

Cheers. :)

[short_circutz]

I am trying to get my grubby little hands on a pair of 2242Gs right now..

I thought only 8 ohm 2242s were made. I've never heard of a 4 ohm version.

[Robh3606]

That’s an interesting design and is it possible to have more than 2 ports for tuning say down to 20Hz?

Why don't you try and see?? Get a copy of WinIsd. It's free shareware and comes with the drivers preloaded.

http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd


Rob:)

[JBLBob]

Here are four dual 2242 cabs that I built for our friend Scott Fitlin. They will be used to blast a bit of extra bottom end into his Coney Island bumper car ride. Since they will not need to be loaded into trucks every day going to different venues we pulled out all the stops and built the hell out of these boxes. These cabinets loaded with the woofers are well over 350lbs each! As many DIYers know MDF is an excellent speaker box material as it is self damping (non-resonant). The only thing wrong with it is that it is about as structural as a wet noodle. This becomes more of an issue as the box grows in size. Internal bracing helps, but to maximize the sonic impact at low frequencies we decided to build the box with a double walled construction. The interior layer is 3/4" MDF that is constrained by an exterior layer of 3/4" Finply. The 13 ply all birch Finply is extremely stiff. The combination of the two materials gives us a cabinet that while too heavy for many applications is nearly sonically ideal. Additionally the cabinets are braced with 1.5" X 3.5" Finply braces.

Another unique feature that we employed was to make the cabinets user tunable. Since they were being built on the West Coast for an East Coast venue, we decided to give Scott the option of tuning the bottom end for his room and taste. There are two ports per woofer chamber and we have supplied two port lengths. If two long ports are used the speakers will have maximum VLF power and low bass extension. If two short ports are used the bass becomes punchier but at the cost of VLF. It is also possible to use one long and one short for an intermediate tuning.

These subwoofers will be shipping out in the next day or two... I don't think the whales off the coast of New York will know what hit them.

Widget

What materials were used to make the ports? I hav ea pair of JBL E-155's and I would like to build a pair of single woffer cabs that are ported.

Bob

[Mr. Widget]

What materials were used to make the ports? I hav ea pair of JBL E-155's and I would like to build a pair of single woffer cabs that are ported.Black painted 6" PVC for some and 6" black ABS for others...


Widget

[timc]

What does ABS stand for? Not antilock brakes i assume.


-Tim

[Ruediger]

What does ABS stand for? Not antilock brakes i assume.


-Tim

Acrylnitril-Butadien-Styrol-Copolymerisat (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copolymer)

Ruediger

[Mike Caldwell]

Here is a link to a supplier of PVC pipe that stocks some non standard sizes. For my double 18's I wanted the largest port area possiable but was kind of limited on front baffle space for lots of multiple ports, their 7 inch PVC worked perfect.
http://www.plasticsupply.net/Ducting.html

[Allanvh5150]

There is usually a ton of free space on the back of the cabinet. Make the ports square and you dont have the worry of trying to find tube of the right diameter.

Allan.

[timc]

In either case i would recommend to keep both ends of the port flared.


-Tim

[JBL 4645]

In either case i would recommend to keep both ends of the port flared.


-Tim

This had some useful information on (flare port diy)
http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/port-flares.htm (http://www.subwoofer-builder.com/port-flares.htm)

[Robh3606]

In either case i would recommend to keep both ends of the port flared.


I agree. I used a flared port on my B380 and get no port noise at all from it even when it cranking. They come in several sizes. Here's a link to the 6". I used the 4" in B380 and my UBM boxes

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=268-354


Rob:)

[srm51555]

I snipped this picture off of a "Eldorado Bumper Cars" google search. Title from Pintrest states " Coney Island hoping for rebound after Sandy". Assuming these are the Widget Cabinets, it's good to see they are still there, sad to see they are empty.

Thanks,
Scott

[BMWCCA]

I snipped this picture off of a "Eldorado Bumper Cars" google search. Title from Pintrest states " Coney Island hoping for rebound after Sandy". Assuming these are the Widget Cabinets, it's good to see they are still there, sad to see they are empty.

Thanks,
ScottAll those Crown amps should be driving something?

Maybe you can get by the pay-wall. I can't: https://www.wsj.com/articles/big-sound-bumps-up-disco-dance-party-1451249090?fbclid=IwAR15_z9-R2lw3wsNsKWGig0bHV1xMOOHAQDTuVWowC4rMi_qrCHHEVsuY8 c

[speakerdave]

It's a story dated 12/27/2015 about DJ Nicky Siano's upcoming New Year's Eve party that was to be held at Eldorado Bumper Cars with the little autos sidelined and the track used as a dance floor. Scott Fitlin is mentioned. Richard Long is given credit for the sound system, though readers of these forums know it was many times upgraded by Scott. No details are given. No mention of the Widget Works. It's a retrospective about the disco era. Scott's system was apparently known throughout the disco world at the time and, also apparently, is a rare survivor (complete or not).

[Mr. Widget]

The Eldorado... :bouncy:
Been missing Scott since 2010... :banghead:

It was fun seeing glimpses of the Eldorado in several episodes of Mr. Robot. Never saw any views that caught any of the rather massive speakers.

I don't remember how heavy those subs were, but even without the drivers they were stupid heavy. We used a forklift to load them up into the truck that took them back east.


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I did visited Eldorado in 2007 on my breakfast in America trip and heard the system. I remember getting the train down from NY City.

Scotty was right into it and very passionate about his audio system. At the time l think the system had some TAD drivers in it such the 1603 woofers. I know it had a Urei active crossover which we talked about while l was there. If l recall correctly we both set out evaluating some PSS power amps from France around that time. The deal on trial product went ape shit on Scotty for some reason which caused quite a stir with the designer.

It’s was the next big controversy after project May and Zilch’s enormous Curve thread. Of course The Event was Giskard’s monumental meltdown which nearly saw the end of the LHS website. It was not a case of if he was going to snap. It was when. Greg hasn’t heard from him in a long time.

They were the days!