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goldcityspeaker
06-23-2005, 11:10 AM
Hello
I was lucky enough to meet Mr Zilch through the audio heritage community and to recieve some technical help recently.
Mr Zilch should be renamed Mr JBL speakerman, as he has a vast knowledge of JBL/ Lansing history and of technical savy.
To visit his secret workshop is a dizzying experience. There is no shortage of
Projects and materials to begin with. We listened to various speakers and systems. To slowly "Warm" our ears to the task of "Test driving" the Q&D 4430's. The systems were warmed up and we listened to the original 4430's.
We then brought the CD to another room and listened on another system the Q&D 4430's, I prefered the Q&D 4430's. For the $ they were right on.
I must admit to having some hearing loss in the right ear, along with a constant tinnitis condition, in high C, remmnants of my marksman training.
A round blew the breech on an bolt action I was firing, What did you say??
Well I enjoyed the demonstration ,as did my daughter, I was very impressed with the final product and comparativly found no flaws or shortages.
My daughter, knowing my fascination with all things loud, commented that," I had met my master." I aked here to explain, she said, "Mr Zilch had the knowledge I seeked." That was very true, having assembled many home and car audio sytems, mostly cobbled by trial and error, I met a man who understood what he was hearing, and what variable and components were effecting it. A knowledged man.
I have no flowery prose to descibe the tune pitch tremble and tremor.
I have no technical knowledge to state variables, crossover frequency drop off points, and other mindknumbing yet pertinant factors.
I must commend Mr Zilch on his creativity and his aplumb, AKA:Balls, to present a near duplicate of a masterpiece, to this forum, It would be akin to Galileo saying the Earth is round. Heretetical!
To the Forum, Thanks for welcoming the out of the box thinking!
To Mr Zilch, to me, You will forever be known as Mr JBL speakerman.
Thanks for the help and Cheers!!:applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:


Note, this thread has been edited after the fact to keep it on topic and remove posts that were either off topic or inflamatory. If anyone has concerns about their posts being deleted, they can contact me by PM.

Don McRitchie
Admin

Zilch
06-23-2005, 12:15 PM
Thank you for your generous review of the "Quick and Dirties" here. :p

I'm pleased we were able to get your JBL's up and running again, and I betcha THEY'RE soundin' purty good, too! :bouncy:

Guido
06-23-2005, 12:44 PM
WOW :)

JuniorJBL
06-23-2005, 01:01 PM
:applaud:

Zilch.... U da Man:D

(it would not let me put 10 smilies)

DMMD
06-23-2005, 01:23 PM
"I must commend Mr Zilch on his creativity and his aplumb, AKA:Balls, to present a near duplicate of a masterpiece, to this forum, It would be akin to Galileo saying the Earth is round. Heretetical!"


Hooo-rah for Zilchster's Balls! Awesome. :applaud:

Titanium Dome
06-23-2005, 09:47 PM
Like so many others on the forum, we're just plain lucky to have guys like Zilch hangin' out with us. Not only does he have speaker balls; he's got cable balls, too.

Well, okay, cable balls isn't a good analogy, but the only thing I can compare a cable to is...never mind. :scold:

Guido
06-24-2005, 03:15 AM
Like so many others on the forum, we're just plain lucky to have guys like Zilch hangin' out with us. Not only does he have speaker balls; he's got cable balls, too.

Well, okay, cable balls isn't a good analogy, but the only thing I can compare a cable to is...never mind. :scold:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
:offtopic:

Infredible
06-28-2005, 10:25 PM
I had the pleasure of spending more than a couple of hours with Serenissina Mr Zilch on Saturday which opened my eyes to what we all should look for... simplicity. On arrival you are greeted and invited to go torwards the "bunker", a small, not too resonant room full of gear and speakers like Alibaba's treasure. Q&D says it all and the reason behind this is Zilch's quest for simplicity. I had a ride on four different systems which were all two way systems (lazy guy;)). I'm not going to do a driver inventory but I do know that the 2431 was the main star of the show. We started with some LE14H-3 and 2431 mounted on PTF waveguide crossed over 1.1kHz or there abouts: nice... but the crossover point was really obvious... those 14" don't do the job when it comes to the mids, they sounded lazy. Next we switched to the famous "Quick and Dirties" which are real performers at the imaging job. I was listening to a whole speaker instead of some separate drivers. Then we moved to the genuine pair of 4430 in the main listening room and I have to say they're nice but the room was pretty echoey which translated to significant boomyness. Mr Zilch's work at the Q&D 2 way concept surprised me with the last system we listened to. An old pair of L200 cabs stuffed with 2235 and that famous 2431 on that same PTF waveguide was the cut of choice. The home made DC biased crossover are a big part of what makes those Q&S systems remarkable. After moving them apart as much as we could in this little listening room we spent some quiet enjoyable time listening mostly to some of my well known, to me, analytical set of CD,s. I'm used to my 4343's which are more dissecting because of the 4 ways but I was really surprised by the quality of what came out. We played the crossover with and without the 9 volt battery and to my ears the difference was stunning. Whithout the battery the system sounded much more "dry" than with. I guess that little battery is doing some wonder around the crossover point. All in all it's always a pleasure to spend some time with a fellow member comparing systems, it leaves the door open to some ideas on what is going to be next system in your own stable.:confused:

Fred.

Zilch
06-29-2005, 12:36 AM
Thank you for coming by to listen, Fred, and for posting your impressions. It was a great pleasure hearing your "test kit" on these systems.

Recognizing that everybody hears differently, I have been concerned that the several other forum members who are investing in trying out this "formula" for themselves might not like the result so well as I do.

It's now looking more like it will not disappoint.

[The Republic is indeed serene this night.... :) ]

Niko
06-29-2005, 05:45 AM
It is unfortunately that I have no opportunity to meet Mr. Zilch. Because we are so far away in distance.I am in the opposite side of the Earth.
But I also look forwards to.....
Just reading the process you listening and modifying the system, it is amazing.

djrobertc
08-21-2005, 03:00 AM
Weeee... got to test drive the Q&Ds at Zilch's place and man oh man they surpassed my expectations. Now mind that I am still a n00B but these ears are quite discerning ;)

First off we went over to some original 4430s and popped in my CD I brought which was IMHO well mastered for what it was (progressive house - some call it techno lol). I let this be my baseline.

Then over to the Q&Ds and played the CD through the 90x50 horns and wow the first thing noticeable to me was those crisper highs.

Then on to the 2431s with the 100 waveguide and still that same crisp high. This time however the stereo image was better kept when off center - yay!

Some extra things I really liked was the sharp response to transients - especially in the "downtempo" CD we played with more acoustic percussion. That compression driver amazes me.

the applications for a system like this seem to be incredibly broad. Flat response, good size (doesnt take up half the room) and a broad listening area without compromising stereo image make this an excellent system to consider building.

Thanks again Zilch buddy for having me over - I had a blast!!! :applaud:

Zilch
08-21-2005, 11:01 AM
Thanks again Zilch buddy for having me over - I had a blast!!! :applaud:My pleasure, anytime. Forum members always welcome! :)

As a working DJ, Robert has heard the gamut of sound systems in the various clubs he's played, and also has his own pro monitor setup as reference. I was uncertain as to how well the Q&D's would stand up in comparison, especially with his "contemporary" remixes, which push the limits of sound reproduction.

NOOb or no, he immediately grasped what was going on here, and it was well appreciated. It also seems like an RTA is moving rapidly to the top of his gear acquisition list.

[And a monster sub or two, maybe, as well.... :p ]

porschedpm
09-05-2005, 09:42 AM
In the process of picking up my order of JBL Blue Grill Cloth last Wednesday from Zilch (thank you Mr. Zilch for stepping up to the plate and making the investment in this cloth so that so many of us here can benefit), I had the unique opportunity of listening to four variations of the Zilch "Quick and Dirties". After we got the grill cloth measured and cut, and the bizness part of the visit out of the way, Zilch took me on a tour of his workshop. Zilch slipped in a CD of dZihan and Kamien, music that member Infredible turned him on to and that Zilch now also uses for critical listening sessions. We listened to the following Q&D variants in the following order:

1) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-H95 horns with 2431H drivers sitting on top of the L200's

2) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-F1010 horns with 2431H drivers in the cabinets.

3) The Original Quick & Dirties
LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
HF: 2344 Bi-radial horns with 2426H drivers on top of the B380's

4) LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
HF: 2346 Everest Horns with LE85 drivers sitting on the floor in front
of the B380 cabinets.,

Let me just say that I've never before listened to 4425's, 4430's, or 4435's. I'm used to listening to either my 4343's (with 4344 drivers) or 240Ti's. I didn't have high expectation of what these 2-way designs were going to sound like. I expected the sound to be more like the sound of a 2-way JBL horn loaded Club speaker: rolled off lows, rolled off highs, but good in the middle. What I heard, though, blew me away. If I didn't see/hear it for myself, I would not have believed such smooth and full sound could come from 2-way speakers. In all of the four Q&D variants, The bass was full and detailed. It was not heavy or fat. The clarity of the mids was astounding, and followed through to the highs. The highs tingled for lack of a better word. In all four of the systems there was transparency to the music. Maybe it was because of the amps, or the crossovers (they were works of art themselves), or the drivers, or the interaction of them all. It certainly wasn't due to the room acoustics because Zilch's workshop is not close to ideal. I don't know. But the the transparency was definitely there and it allowed not only the piano notes themselves but also the harmonics of the music come through.

The differences between the four systems were very subtle. System #2 seemed to be a little more laid back in the midrange than System #1. But according to Zilch that was due to System 1's horns, which were sitting on top of the L200's, being more at ear level than System 2's which were mounted inside the cabinet. Both #1 and #2 had a flat, full, detailed bass and crystal clear highs. I couldn't say System 1 was better than 2 or vice-versa. Only that they were slightly different. But both were very, very good. System #3, the original version of the Quick & Dirty, sounded like a good combination between #1 and #2. The highs on system 3 seemed to have just slightly less tingle-a little flater on the upper end. Not so much that I felt I was missing anything. Just a very slight difference. The highs were still very clear and very tingly. And if you didn't have these systems there in the same room to A/B you'd never know there was a difference. But still, to say #1 or #2 was better than #3, I couldn't do that. Zilch auditioned system 4 for me mostly to demonstrate the imaging of the Everest horns. Two things amazed me about this system. First, was the performance of the LE85 driver that was mated to the 2346 Everest horns. This 35 year old driver was no slouch and gave up nothing to the more modern drivers. Secondly, the imaging of the Everest horns were incredible. Keep in mind these horns were sitting on the floor. But as you moved around the room, it seemed the sweet spot moved with you, sitting or standing. You could easily love any one of these four systems. They are all excellent, high-end speakers more than capable of running with the big dogs. I aked Zilch if he had a favorite and he said he liked them all. He said he'll listen to one system for a few weeks and then switch to another. There are subtle differences between them but no one system stands out as the best. Thanks again, Zilch, for the rare treat of auditioning these. I certainly have a new respect for the 4430's and the Q&D's. (Spent most of Saturday reading the Q&D Discussion Thread). I've also started looking at L200's with a new found respect (and lust). And I'm thinking I need to get a Behringer Ultracurve Pro DEQ 2496 RTA so I can see what my speakers are doing.

Ed S.

Earl K
09-05-2005, 10:16 AM
- Nice review Ed ! :applaud:

- I'm glad all of Ziches efforts at furthering the humble 2-way are paying these dividends .

- ( Okay Zilch , now how about grabbing those H9800/435Be combos from the Widget so that you can rework Project Mays' HF band-pass into a "no-tweeter" version - this MTM version had been requested by Don many moons ago ) ;)

<> EARLK

Zilch
09-05-2005, 10:57 AM
Thank you, Ed, for documenting your impressions so thoroughly here. As always, it's a pleasure to welcome forum members for a listen. I must tell you all there's no better bunch of folks than the Lansing Heritage has assembled. :thmbsup:

Most everyone who has heard them has observed as Ed does how remarkably similar these systems sound. I've consciously attempted to control the many variables; everything's the same right down to the type of bypass capacitors used in the crossovers. All run on 6230 and 6260 amps. The major differences are the horns (waveguides) and compression drivers in the various systems.

I earlier remarked that we are well past 2370A vs. 2344A here. Indeed, the variations are subtle. If it can be said that there is a "Signature" sound to the 4430 formula, I think that's what is playing here now, and it is delicious.... ;)

Zilch
09-05-2005, 11:26 AM
Okay Zilch , now how about grabbing those H9800/435Be combos from the Widget so that you can rework Project Mays' HF band-pass into a "no-tweeter" version....The Project May team suggested a two-way approach early on, in fact. There are certainly precedents in the lineage.

Unless there are limitations in the H9800 itself, it'd work quite nicely, no doubt. There are always compromises in these design approaches, and two-way certainly pushes the limits of current technology across the performance spectrum.

Mr. Widget has himself often affirmed the worthiness of the two-way objective. Integrating the 045Be supertweeter into a three-way design was determined to be more consistent with Project May performance criteria, though, and I agree with that.

Maybe there's a pair of H9800's in the future here. I'm bettin' 2431H's would play pretty nicely on them.... :p

Mr. Widget
09-05-2005, 07:06 PM
I popped in briefly yesterday and heard the improvements that Zilch has made to his not very quick but slightly dirty two-way speakers.

I'll use Ed's numbering system.

1) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-H95 horns with 2431H drivers sitting on top of the L200's

I found these to have excellent detail above 1KHz (the range covered by the PT-H95 horns and compression drivers). I felt that Zilch has definitely been able to get the highs out of his speakers though I really didn't like the high frequency response above about 8KHz. I found it hard, bright, and too aggressive.

In as much as it is possible to get a sense of imaging from the speakers in Zilch's Lab, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. I think they very well may image well, but I'd really like to hear them in a furnished living room in a proper equilateral triangle setup.

Below 1KHz I found the blending of the 2235H to the compression driver and horn to be OK, but not ideal. As before, I felt I was missing some detail at the upper end of the 2235H's range. A stock 4430 gets this integration about as well as can be done with a 15" woofer and horn. I have heard better bass from 2235Hs and suggested Zilch take a look at the cabinets for resonances... true I have been battling these demons myself recently and may be a bit too sensitive there. I just know I have heard better bass from these woofers. It could be a room issue, room placement, or as I suspect the cabinets.

Next we listened to:

2) LF: 2235H in L200 cabinets
HF: PT-F1010 horns with 2431H drivers in the cabinets.

After I commented on the extreme brightness in the first system Zilch made some adjustments to his equalizer... I am not sure if that affected the second system as well, but they were significantly less bright. They certainly were not dull sounding, but not overly bright as the first pair. I did find them a bit lacking in detail resolution. I am not sure if this is due to their physical placement or the horns themselves. I asked Zilch to let me hear them with the grilles removed.. it seemed to help slightly. I would suggest more experiments need to be performed to determine if the difference between the two is physical placement, crossover network, or the horns.

The bass and integration to the HF horn was essentially the same for this speaker as in the first test.

The third system we listened to:

4) LF: 2235H in B380 cabinets
HF: 2346 Everest Horns with LE85 drivers sitting on the floor in front
of the B380 cabinets.

Here the large Everest horns lay on the floor and create an unusual listening arrangement. They are quite unusual in their response as you walk around the room... they are kind of bassakwards in that as move around the room, the further speaker becomes more on axis and it dominates the sound stage, which is just the opposite of other speakers. I found this curious and a bit disturbing.

The most striking thing to me was the quality of the HF response through them. For the first time through any of Zilch's speakers I heard a top end I could live with. I asked which drivers we were listening to and it was the LE85s... they were being boosted with the 3110A "boost" (midrange cut) of the crossover and they really had a nice clean top end that was free of the hard edged sound of the others.

To sum up, I'll give Zilch credit that he has really pulled a lot of HF out of these "mid range" drivers. The driver I preferred by far was the venerable old LE85. If good affordable sound is what you're after some of these designs may be the solution for you. If your goal is somewhat higher, I think the PT-H95 horn is intriguing, but I think I would pursue using it in a 4-way. I still don't believe it is possible to get state of the art performance out of any 15" woofer at 1000Hz. I also think that the HF of a dedicated tweeter is simply superior to what I heard being coaxed out of the 3" diaphragmed drivers.

Widget

Zilch
09-05-2005, 08:17 PM
It's always a learning experience as well as great fun when Mr. Widget drops by. He can draw the RTA curve just from listening. :)

His initial reaction that I had perhaps overdone it with HF extension on the PT-H95's elicited a big grin and double "thumbs up" from me. I can always back it down, as desired. Unfortunately, we didn't have enough time to try that this time. They were, in fact, getting a little EQ boost up there.

I certainly agree that the old LE85's are strong contenders here. I've acquired some D8R2421 diaphragms to experiment with different crossovers using them. Some of the best-sounding horn combinations I've tested have been with these old general purpose drivers, and in the one case we tested using CLIO, the HF extension was better than titanium-diaphragm 2426's.

Interestingly, the HF he liked the best is somewhat rolled off at the very high end. Some would contend that it's only distortion what's playing up above mass breakpoint there, anyway. It's not as if we can actually hear it.

I haven't begun to figure out the Everest soundstage thing yet. The big horns are just too difficult to manipulate in this space. Once the H2600 throats arrive, we'll get to play around with making the "mini" version work. The behavior is startling at first, indeed.

And finally, I'll certainly check for resonances in the L200 cabinets, a simple task with Woofer Tester 2. They could benefit from some bracing, no doubt, but I'm not gonna do the sand thing Mr. Widget is trying, nope.... :p

johnaec
09-28-2005, 07:46 PM
I finally got a chance to really hear Zilch's system using the mini-everest horns, and along with a friend of mine, we were able to listen directly to the difference between the biased and un-biased versions, as Zilch plugged and unplugged the battery on both channels. Both my friend and I were able to perceive a slight difference, with the biased versions sounding barely perceptibly "brighter", though if I checked the RTA response, I might have used a different term. But either way, we both thought the mini-everests sounded great!

You really have to re-think your expectations as you move your head around and sided to side with these - you're so used to hearing the point-source change to a degree that when it doesn't, you really have to do a double-take. It's somewhat unsettling the first time...http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/redface.gif Personally though, with 1" drivers, these are my favorite horns so far. We listened to the exact same system with 2344's, and I myself preferred the mini-everests.

John

Zilch
09-28-2005, 08:18 PM
Thanks, John for coming by to listen. Next time, we'll play more of your "standards" on them! :)

Here's the RTA curve John was listening to (top), with UltraCurve's "Room correction." Note that vertical scale is 10 dB per dotted line to illustrate the contour.

The setup is LE14H-3 in Citation 7.4 boxes with 30° toe-in (Everest alignment), H3100 Controlled Directivity horns (in line) on 2426H drivers, biased NL200t3 passive crossovers with final autoEQ by Behringer UltraCurve Pro 24/96 above 100 Hz.

Bottom curve is same system without correction, for comparison. It's 5 dB "brighter" at the high end.

[That's the monster sub in the other room down the very bottom there.... :p ]

rloggie
10-10-2005, 08:25 PM
Today I enjoyed a short visit to Zilch's sound lab & emporium. The fare of the day was a listen to his mini-everest setup. Very empressive. My ususal critical listening is many hours of hearing the same speakers and, while trying to tweek them to the room and associated equiptment, eventually learning their strengths and weaknesses.
With the mini-everests, I walked in, sat down and heard what I heard for an impression instead of a certainty. That impression is that the system is very smooth and easy on ears. (I loved the Neville Bros.) The LE85 sounded the best and most extended I've ever heard for a 1" type. (Zilch boosted the HF with his equalizer, but, although the highs were extended, I prefered the slightly rolled off top that he played first) The sound was seamless between the LE14 and LE85. And speaking of the 14" woofer, the bottom end was tight and full.
As eveyone is bound to comment on, the imaging was very good. Lots of speakers image well, but these imaged well anywhere within the outside boundries of the speaks edges inward. In other words, one can walk around within the soundfield and the singer or insturments stay put. I commented that it had a live caberet sound. Picture sitting at a table off center of the band but you still know where each player in the band is located. That's about the best I can discribe it.
Rumors abound of a monster everest lurking in the shadows in the future. Scary.:biting:

Ken Pachkowsky
10-10-2005, 09:41 PM
I quite enjoyed the reviews and would love to visit the lad myself? Perhaps in the not to distant future?

Ken

Zilch
10-10-2005, 09:46 PM
Thank you, Robin. Your "Cabaret" analogy is an astute characterization of the system behavior here. I can sit well off axis, at the very edge, in fact, and even with my back to the speakers, still perceive the stereo image behind me. It's remarkable, indeed.

I wonder if S2600/S3100 owners experience this as well, or do the woofers have to be toed-in Everest's 30°, i.e, on the true driver axis of the horns, to produce the full effect? I need to plot the sound field on a grid both ways to figure out what's really going on with this setup.

Regarding the LE85's, as I think back over the entire Q&D history, there have been numerous occasions on which I have observed and documented their especially pleasing performance in various horn/driver combinations. Due to their 16-Ohm impedance, however, it's only just recently that I have had the capability of giving them the same HF boost contours as the others. Thank you Giskard.

Thus far, they have been exquisite, if not superior performers in comparison to 2425/6. They do indeed have the smooth and sweeter-sounding character others have cited here, as well as a delicate and pleasant extended HF.

It's most likely the inherent damping of aluminum diaphragms, but Mr. Widget and I are planning to more precisely compare the response characteristics of the various diaphragm types on the 2420 versus 2425/6 motors in the near future. The results may be illuminating.

I'm not yet ready to conclude that we've been "had" by titanium diaphragms, but it should certainly not go without notice that the system you heard today is 100% composed of consumer, as opposed to pro, components....

Zilch
10-10-2005, 09:49 PM
I quite enjoyed the reviews and would love to visit the lad myself? Perhaps in the not to distant future?Well, "Lad" is overly generous, perhaps, but you're welcome any time.... ;)

Ken Pachkowsky
10-10-2005, 09:57 PM
You would be more than welcome here as well.

Ken

Bernard Wolf
10-13-2005, 10:31 AM
I wonder if S2600/S3100 owners experience this as well, or do the woofers have to be toed-in Everest's 30°, i.e, on the true driver axis of the horns, to produce the full effect?


As an owner of 3100's I can attest to the fact that they do indeed exibit the same kind of imaging characteristics. As to weather or not the Everest with the toed-in woofers are superior in this respect I can not say, not having heard them. This particular quality is not as important to me as is the excellent image width and depth with very precise and believable placement of instruments/vocalists. I know that horns are not generally known for this, but the 3100/2600 has it in spades.

I wonder if the height of the horn has anything to do with this. The 3100 horn slot/opening is 37" from the floor, which equates exactely to my ear height when seated. How can you listed to the 2346 with them on the floor ??

It realy is a shame that the 3100/2600 did not have more exposure in the USA as it would have gone a long ways toward establishing JBL as a modern High End speaker to be reckoned with.

Bernard

Bernard Wolf
10-13-2005, 10:38 AM
The aquaplas dusted titaniums don't seem to be generally available. I've ordered some 275nd's to try.


Zilch - have you found a source for 275nd's ? I am looking for a mate for the single 275 that I have now. Am hoping to upgrade my S/3100 to a MarkII configuration.

Thanks - Bernard

Zilch
10-13-2005, 10:57 AM
Zilch - have you found a source for 275nd's?I'm just now attempting to obtain them through "normal" channels. We'll see. With patience, I've been able to get just about everything in the past.

The Radians have come in, and look very nice. They were only $89 apiece at Parts Express, certainly more reasonable than the $244 JBL wants for D8R2421.


It realy is a shame that the 3100/2600 did not have more exposure in the USA as it would have gone a long ways toward establishing JBL as a modern High End speaker to be reckoned with.Indeed so.

Perhaps there's some problem we haven't discovered yet (Mr. Widget will find it ;) ), but these are providing especially euphonic performances with vintage LE85's attached here.... :D

Uncle Paul
11-18-2005, 08:49 PM
...The Radians have come in, and look very nice. They were only $89 apiece at Parts Express, certainly more reasonable than the $244 JBL wants for D8R2421...

Zilch, Have you had a chance to play with the Radians yet? I'm curious about how they compare to the genuine JBL aluminums.

Also, did the 275nd's come in?

Zilch
11-18-2005, 09:16 PM
Zilch, Have you had a chance to play with the Radians yet? I'm curious about how they compare to the genuine JBL aluminums.I've been temporarily diverted by 2407H here. :p

The 275nd's came in too. We're now waitin' for Mr. Widget to get some free time with CLIO. It's 5 different diaphragm types on two different motors, not a trivial pursuit. I'll need to get "organized."

I may load the 275nd's for a little listen first, tho.... ;)

Edit: First try here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78330#post78330

Bernard Wolf
11-19-2005, 01:57 PM
I
The 275nd's came in too. ;)

Hi Zilch - where the heck did you manage to get a 275nd from ? I need one badly myself to finish off my s3100 to mkII project. Any help would be much appreciated.

Bernard

toddalin
11-25-2005, 06:39 PM
Last Friday (11/18) my wife Linda and I dropped by Zilch’s place to talk and listen. Upon arrival we were led past the most massive subwoofer I'd ever seen into the workshop where various JBLs were amassed. We previewed three of his systems. Pardon me if I don’t keep up with the JBL professional part #s.

System 1 – LE14s with baby cheeks.



While the imaging was good and the music very detailed, to my ear, originally the highs were way too edgy, almost to the point of shrill. Zilch adjusted the crossover to reduce the top end and while this did tame the sound to a reasonable level, there was just a little too much edge remaining for my taste. Also, to my ear, the sound was a bit thin in the upper bass. (I noticed this same thing listening to LE-14Cs).



System 2 – LE14s in Citation boxes with CD horns.



This system fills in the upper bass and tones down the treble resulting in a smoother sound than System 1. The system sounded very good for most music, and the sound was extremely articulate. HOWEVER, an acoustic track by Eric Clapton came through extremely “honky.” We all heard and commented on this, and the Barringer miced in the room showed an obvious spike at 1KHz.



System 3 – B380 bottoms with Everest horns



To my ear, easily the best of the three systems. The highs from the Everests were by far the smoothest and most natural sounding (not edgy at all) of the horns interviewed. The bass was tight and articulate and even though the horns were on the floor, the transition between the woofer/horn was smooth. The same acoustic Eric Clapton track came through sounding completely different. Though the Barringer still showed a spike a 1KHz, the honk was dramatically reduced and the track sounded nice.


Zilch is an excellent host and a wealth of knowledge. Linda and I really enjoyed our time visiting and hope to do it again sometime.

BTW, if you want to test for a honky horn, Eric Clapton’s Unplugged “Tears in Heaven” is an excellent test.;)

Todd

Zilch
11-25-2005, 08:07 PM
Heh, heh. The "Monster Sub" is by the door so's I can teach "Beaters" driving by what bass is REALLY all about. I s'pose if I got the phase relationships just right, I could make their systems self-destruct with it. :p

To clarify the systems Todd and Linda heard:

System 1: 2407 on 2342 biradial horns, LE14A in Citation 7.4 boxes. AM6212 crossover.

System 2: The "Hotrods," LE14H-3 and PT-F1010 with 2431H, in S99 bookshelf cabinet, AM6212 biased crossover.

System 3: Substitute 2352 horns on the floor with 2435HPL drivers, same LE14H-3 woofers in S99's, developmental crossover.

Thank you both for taking time out of your busy Northern California work schedule to come by for a listen. :thmbsup:

johnaec
12-13-2005, 06:03 PM
I got to hear a little more of Zilch's experiments this last weekend.

The first system I heard was with those litte BMS drivers similar to the JBL 2407H, on the JBL PT-F95 horn, with Citation boxes using the LE14H-3 LF, I believe crossed over 24 dB at 1.3K. 'Very impressive! I must admit, I was focusing mainly on the highs, so I can't really comment on how well the LE14H-3's did up to 1.3K.

The next setup was similar, but with actual JBL 2407H drivers on the PT-F1010 waveguides, with throat adaptors for the 1.5" horn. I felt the dispersion wasn't as good with these horns, possibly because the driver exit is so far back in the horn compared to the PT-F95, where it's right there up front.

Regardless, in both cases, it was amazing what these little-bitty drivers do! They can't be more that 3" in diameter! 'Really shows the strength of neodymium! I'm tempted to pick up some, and use the PT-F95 horns. It'd really be interesting to see how they'd do with something like 2214H's for LF.

The last setup I heard was using 2435HPL drivers on 2352 horns, with 2235H for LF. I believe they were crossed over at 1K, 12 dB/octave - I'm not sure what compensation was dialed in.

Again, I was really impressed by the clarity of everything coming out of the horns! (I later learned the LF cabinets had been out of phase with each other, which explained a certain discomfort I experienced trying to locate the best listening position.) Regardless, the sound was impressive! It didn't seem all that loud at all, until I realized I was almost having to shout to talk to Zilch! Extremely clear sound.

I have to admit, I'm sure I haven't reached the levels of sonic discrimination many here have achieved, but I do know what sounds good to me. I really think Zilch is onto something with these 2-ways, though his custom-tuned crossovers probably have a lot to do with it.

Yet even after hearing all these latest setups, I'm still drawn to the mini-everests - there's no describing that sound-stage, and when it's not there, I find I somewhat miss it. 'Didn't even listen to them this time, and found myself yearning.

Anyway, it looks like a practical, inexpensive way to put together some nice 2-way syatems is in the works - I've got the feeling I'll be doing a set someday...

John

toddalin
12-13-2005, 06:49 PM
I got to hear a little more of Zilch's experiments this last weekend.

Again, I was really impressed by the clarity of everything coming out of the horns! (I later learned the LF cabinets had been out of phase with each other, which explained a certain discomfort I experienced trying to locate the best listening position.) Regardless, the sound was impressive! It didn't seem all that loud at all, until I realized I was almost having to shout to talk to Zilch! Extremely clear sound.

John

John, when we listended I brought in my professional Quest Integrating Sound Level Meter and we were listening at about 91-92 dBC.

johnaec
12-13-2005, 06:58 PM
John, when we listended I brought in my professional Quest Integrating Sound Level Meter and we were listening at about 91-92 dBC.We might have gone a little higher... ;)

John

oznob
03-03-2006, 07:05 PM
I stopped by Zilch's place after I picked up my 4430's. Wow, what great bunch of stuff he has! He treated me to some music with a home made system consisting of a couple of horns and some 14 inchers in their own boxes, AWESOME! I'm hoping I can get the sound out of my 4430's that got out of piecing some things together. He really knows his stuff and I was very impressed. All that and he's a great guy to boot! Kuddos Zilch:applaud:

Zilch
03-03-2006, 08:25 PM
Thanks, Oznob, and for dropping by to show me your "new" 4430's. They're in great shape and you made quite a score with that purchase. They'll be a new and different listening experience for you, and from your reaction to hearing them here, an apparently satisfying one. Welcome to the Constant Directivity experience! :thmbsup:

Oznob also heard the latest Mini-Everest incarnation: BMS 4552nd's on H3100 horns and LE14A's in Citation 7.4 cabs, all running biamped using a JBL 5235 active crossover with 800 Hz FFBREQ cards, recently acquired thanks to forum member Jbl4ever. Amps are JBL 6230 HF, 6260 LF, no additional EQ required.

Oh, and $89 Sony CDP-XE400 CD player, direct-connected. :p

Mr. Widget
03-08-2006, 12:01 AM
I had the pleasure of auditioning Zilch's latest creations last night. All of the designs were using significantly larger horns than before and one even had a tweeter!!! Go figure.

I think he is making progress, but between it being months since I was there and the decidedly compromised listening conditions, it is hard for me to tell exactly how much progress has been made. We both like the largest system the best. I assume he has described it on one of his threads, but I am not sure... perhaps he can describe it again. I did hear a bit of honkiness on all of these systems... it might be due to the fact that none of these thin walled plastic horns were mounted in baffles.

Thanks for the "Test Ride"!:)


Widget

Zilch
03-08-2006, 11:09 AM
Heya, Widget! Thanks again for coming by and reporting your findings.

The "Mega-system" is here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80162&postcount=300

I need to build a listening room, or at least, get a comfortable chair in the "lab." :p

oznob
04-12-2006, 04:16 PM
Stopped by Zilch's today to pick up the newly re-foamed 2235's. To my surprise he had his "3 way" system up and running. The "Frakenwoofer":p, big mid horn and tweeter with the multi-use crossover! I must say it was damn impressive! We played one of my favorite test songs from Jennifer Warnes and I had never heard it sound better! When I got home I put the woofers back in the 4430's and played the same track. It certainly sounded great but not as articulate, especially in the upper registers, as the 3 ways. Zilch, I definately think you are onto to something!:applaud: Now I have to figure out how to put a super-tweeter in/on the 4430's.:hmm:

Zilch
04-12-2006, 04:51 PM
Now I have to figure out how to put a super-tweeter in/on the 4430's.:hmm::scold:

We don't "mess" with 4430's, nope.

You gotta build ANOTHER system!! :rockon1:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105370&postcount=114

Still hafta do a bunch of testing on the "Generic" crossovers for Toddalin and others, but they seem to have tied these particular components together nicely.

Occasionally, I get lucky.... ;)

Robh3606
04-12-2006, 05:38 PM
Hello Zilch

So what is that a modernized L300 with a 2" driver??? How do you like the 2380 and the 2450??

Rob:)

Zilch
04-12-2006, 05:56 PM
Hi, Rob!

Yeah, a constant directivity version, perhaps. :D

Three elements seem key:

1) 2407H mylar-diaphragm tweeter. Very smooth and transparent.

2) PT-F95 tweeter horn for UHF soundfield matching 2380A MF. Though I haven't done polar testing, they seem to blend perfectly. No beaming.

3) "SL" diaphragms in the 2450J's for smoothness there, as well.

I considered using my favorite 2352 horn with the 1.5" 2452 driver, but thought the height of that horn would separate the drivers too much.

This combination has more separation than I'd intuitively want, even, but it seems to work well.

My 2235H's are out for refoam, so Oznob heard them with E140's reconed with 2235H kits. I'll post comparative LF measurements when the real ones get back and I figure out how to do it.

On the Behringer RTA, the FR curve is so flat you could sleep on it..... :p

Mr. Widget
04-12-2006, 06:51 PM
On the Behringer RTA....How odd...

Now, why did you spend all that money on an upgraded CLIO rig and a new computer?:blink:

On a more serious note. Does the coated "SL" diaphragm get rid of that midrange squawk that we heard on both the 1.5" and 2" horns had a while back?


Widget

Robh3606
04-12-2006, 07:37 PM
Oh:bouncy: you have the coated diaphrams?? How are they??

Rob:)

Zilch
04-12-2006, 07:39 PM
How odd...Clio RTA results are in the link. MLS and LF sinusoidal will appear in the "Keepers" thread soon.... :)

Regarding midrange "coloration," I think it's gone, but I really also need to mount the horns in boxes, as you suggested.

They're ready for you to hear again, next time you can drop by. I need your help with CLIO, too....

Zilch
04-12-2006, 07:52 PM
Oh:bouncy: you have the coated diaphrams?? How are they?Best I can explain it, the uncoated diaphragms have a "character," which, when I switch to the Aquaplassed "SL" diaphragms, disappears. Initially, I perceived it as something missing, and kept watching the FR display for reassurance.

Turns out, what's gone was simply wrong.

I cannot say which is better: aluminum, mylar, coated titanium, or beryllium, but it's worth noting that JBL is also using coated (damped) aluminum in the new Array series.

It's an artifact of operation in the breakup mode, perhaps, but I'm reluctant to ascribe it to anything that specific as yet. I just don't have the requisite knowledge of the fundamentals.

I observed early on in these investigations that the aluminum diaphragms sounded better. The coated titaniums exhibit the same order of magnitude improvement, I'd say, perhaps more....

4313B
04-13-2006, 05:47 AM
It's funny to read this thread.

And stop baiting him Rob :scold:
You have coated diaphragms.


it's worth noting that JBL is also using coated (damped) aluminum in the new Array series."If it's metal, coat it."
I think I mentioned that to you some time ago Zilch. Substrate is irrelevant. Al, Ti, Be, - coat it all.

My 2235H's are out for refoam, so Oznob heard them with E140's reconed with 2235H kits. I'll post comparative LF measurements when the real ones get back and I figure out how to do it.You'd probably be better off doing TS measurements on both transducers and then modeling them... do both transducers at the same time so you get results under reasonably similar conditions. I'm not real sure why you're so enamored with E130's or E140's reconed as 2235H's, it kind of defeats the purpose of using mass rings and the like since you're going to a more powerful magnetic assembly. You want a weaker magnetic assembly with that software if you want more extension. If you insist on using the more powerful E130 or E140 hardware you might as well leave out the mass ring too. You can continue to suggest to everyone that E130's and E140's reconed as 2235H's are "good enough", I really don't care. It's their problem not mine. I personally view it as a wasted 2235H kit.

Ian Mackenzie
04-13-2006, 05:53 AM
I find it difficult to accept how anyone could arrive an any conslusions listening in a garage.

oznob
04-13-2006, 11:16 AM
I find it difficult to accept how anyone could arrive an any conslusions listening in a garage.

It's more of a shop area than a garage. I guess to be absolutely accurate, it looks like it was a garage at one time but was converted to a shop/storage area. I consulted Websters and their description of a garage is; "A building or wing of a building in which to park a car." There is no way you could park a car in there so, if you take Webster's description literally, it's not a garage. I looked up "shop" and one of the descriptions is "A home workshop." I think that more accurately describes the area where the work and listening is done. I'm sure Zilch has plans to build a "proper" listening room at some point? Maybe an anechoic chamber is the ticket? In my mind, if it sound good, it sounds good, no matter where you are listening to it.

Mr. Widget
04-13-2006, 11:26 AM
In my mind, if it sound good, it sounds good, no matter where you are listening to it.I'll go with that!;)

Personally, as I've said before... a bit more time spent on the room and a bit less on the 90+ designs he's worked on over that last year or two wouldn't be a bad idea... but that's just me.:D


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
04-13-2006, 11:38 AM
That not what I meant but will be more careful with the syntax to avoid any confusion in future.

By they way do you own any coated diaphragms yourself?

You have to listen to them in a controlled environment for quite a while to discern what the differences are or form any qualitatative understanding.

Its just that generally I find a better appreciation of hi end audio equipment in my home listening room, not the workshop.

Mr. Widget
04-13-2006, 11:42 AM
Its just that generally I find a better appreciation of hi end audio equipment in my home listening room, not the workshop.He's right too!:applaud:

Widget

Zilch
04-13-2006, 12:01 PM
I find it difficult to accept how anyone could arrive an any conslusions listening in a garage.Actually, the listening conditions in the "laboratory" are well controlled, and the acoustic treatments are extraordinary:

1) Ceiling is 9'-3" mounted on resiliant channel with sound board behind.

2) "Door" wall is exposed 4" fiberglass insulation, as commonly used in bass traps.

3) Opposite wall is 5/8" sheetrock on resiliant channel.

4) One long wall is lined with 8' high racks of 12" deep bin boxes, space between rows, not unlike anechoic treatments.

5) Overall dimensions are 15' X 18', equivalent of a "large" listening room.

Bottom line: while the conditions may not be optimum, they are controlled, and suitable for my use in comparative testing and listening. I am well familiar with how stuff sounds in there.

It ain't an ordinary garage....

'Course, not EVERYONE has the luxury of listening under "optimum" conditions, either:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87333&postcount=23

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87438&postcount=40


Personally, as I've said before... a bit more time spent on the room and a bit less on the 90+ designs he's worked on over that last year or two wouldn't be a bad idea....Naw, need to build more CROSSOVERS, is what.

Alas, the county tax assessor agrees with you, tho. They want me to get on with completing the house.... :p

Zilch
04-13-2006, 12:08 PM
It's funny to read this thread.

And stop baiting him Rob :scold:
You have coated diaphragms.

Hee, hee.

I assume and accept that Rob has a genuine interest in the reaction of others to coated diaphragms in comparative testing....


You'd probably be better off doing TS measurements on both transducers and then modeling them... do both transducers at the same time so you get results under reasonably similar conditions. Yup, gonna do that, once I get my 2235H's back from refoam. It'll be interesting to compare those to the other ones with brand new cone kits installed, as well.... :thmbsup:

Mr. Widget
04-13-2006, 12:16 PM
Bottom line: while the conditions may not be optimum...

It ain't an ordinary garage.... ;)That's an understatement... not to mention... no room for a car!


Widget

4313B
04-13-2006, 01:06 PM
I assume and accept that Rob has a genuine interest in the reaction of others to coated diaphragms in comparative testing....

Yup, gonna do that, once I get my 2235H's back from refoam. It'll be interesting to compare those to the other ones with brand new cone kits installed, as well.... :thmbsup:I guess... I personally couldn't care less what any of you think of coated diaphragms... it's simply a non-issue.

As for the 2235H's - so you have four 2235H's and two E130's reconed as 2235H's?

Zilch
04-13-2006, 02:02 PM
As for the 2235H's - so you have four 2235H's and two E130's reconed as 2235H's?Well, there's a bunch more in various systems here, actually, but the three pair for evaluation are:

1) The 2235H's I bought from you, which are now being refoamed,
2) A pair of 2225H with new 2235H kits installed, broken-in, and,
3) A pair of E140-8 with new 2235H kits installed, now also broken-in.

Might be interesting to do T/S (Fs, at least) on the refoams before breaking them in, as well as after. I suspect the shift in Fs comes from breaking in new spiders, not foams. Easily determined in this case.... :thmbsup:


I guess... I personally couldn't care less what any of you think of coated diaphragms... it's simply a non-issue.What, then, ARE the fundamentals?

Is it breakup mode resonances being tamed?

These 4" diaphragms have diamond surrounds. I understand there's a movement away from them in current design, too....

Ian Mackenzie
04-13-2006, 02:23 PM
Zilch,

Okay, but what is your criteria for your remarks? A fleeting glimpse at your much loved RTA..(a ruler straight line to daylight or its crap), whether your dog ScoobyDoo bangs his head when he pricks his ears up under the bench or whether Barney over the fence starts toe tapping with Wilma when you pull out a 78!:rotfl: :wasnt-me:

Zilch
04-13-2006, 02:36 PM
The ultimate criterion, of course, is when the cat runs and hides under the bed because he thinks there's ACTUALLY strangers in there singing. :p

The difference is quite apparent, in fact, especially in the HF; as Giskard suggests, "It's simply a non-issue...."

Run 'em two-way to discern and appreciate the qualitative difference immediately. It's not subtle....

Ian Mackenzie
04-13-2006, 02:46 PM
So you sleep out there as well? I figured that!

" It's simplay a non-issue....Now we're getting somewhere..but its always important to let others make their own minds up to you know.

Zilch
04-13-2006, 03:05 PM
So you sleep out there as well? I figured that!Well, no. While I suggested that the FR curve on the RTA was flat enough to sleep on, I don't actually do that.... :p


" It's simplay a non-issue....Now we're getting somewhere..but its always important to let others make their own minds up to you know.Absolutely. I'm not advocating anything, rather, merely reporting my subjective findings in response to Rob's question.

If this encourages others to determine for themselves, so much the better for all DIY'ers. There's a pair of 8-Ohm 4" SL diaphragms listed on eBay right now, in fact; they're also available in 8 and 16 ohms through JBL Pro Parts....

More info in this thread:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3450

Steve Gonzales
04-13-2006, 04:09 PM
I've not followed your Quick and Dirty thread. I've read this thread though, all the way through and find it extremely interesting. I really like the spirit in which you present your findings. That is a cool little lab you have there Zilch. I appreciate the immense amount of time and effort you've put into this ongoing project[s]. Gonna have to pay a little more attention to the Zilchster from now on. Here is a question for you. Do you think that it would be a benefit to try and integrate a UHF into that 2352 horn somehow, ala K2 ?. Silly question?. Dunno. What would the application of Dynamat to the backside of the horns do to control the unwanted effects of them being freestanding? Just curious. Thank you for doing so much R&D and taking the time to share the findings, again, they are very interesting, Steve G

Zilch
04-13-2006, 04:19 PM
Here is a question for you. Do you think that it would be a benefit to try and integrate a UHF into that 2352 horn somehow, ala K2?Thought about it, actually.

Trying to find out what, if any, horn comes on 045AL....


What would the application of Dynamat to the backside of the horns do to control the unwanted effects of them being freestanding? Just curious.Jean discussed that when I tried some spray-on stuff. The answer seems to be "Box 'em" for starters....

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=90544&postcount=400


I've not followed your Quick and Dirty thread.Takes about a day to read through the whole thing, now that it's done.

Use the "Contents" if you just want to look at specific subjects there; left column is links to the specific pages/posts:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9901

Steve Gonzales
04-13-2006, 04:37 PM
Looks like a 045Be.'s horn would be the ticket. How about a small elliptical, no, not an 076, but a little bigger?. You've got enough on your plate, as is, keep it coming, the exchange of various ideas and information is the very best of the LHS!.

P.S., I just poured over that link, OMG!!. You really have done some wonderful tests. Nothing like hands-on to learn from. I was intitially turned off by the 2 way concept to tell you the truth, but I'm learning. I'm not trying to blow smoke up your a## Zilch, I'm honestly very impressed!. Thank you, gonna go read some more.