PDA

View Full Version : Live vs recorded music



Titanium Dome
03-04-2006, 10:41 AM
As a means to raise the quality of our lives, Huikyong and I regularly attend concerts through a package I bought at the Cerritos Center for the Performing Arts in Cerritos, CA.

http://www.cerritoscenter.com/

One of the reasons is the belief that live performance is the essence of the musical soul. Another is that live music is the standard by which recorded music is measured. However, this does not always turn out to be the case.

More often than not the live sound is not as pleasing as the recorded sound.

Dave Koz, Johnathan Butler, Keiko Matsui, Patti Austin, Norman Brown, and David Benoit sounded superb.

Joyce Cooling, David Sanborn, The Rippingtons, Craig Chaquico, Earl Klugh, Ronnie Laws, The Braxton Brothers, and most recenlty Al Jarreau were very disappointing.

It's not simply a matter of sound, but also a matter of performance and musicality. The tight, coherent, balanced sound of the recorded music devolves into chaos on the stage for some of these performers. And it's not a matter of wanting the performance to mimic the recorded sound; that'd be a rip off. I want live sound; that's why I'm there.

On balance, I'd have to say some performers are better in the studio where they can fuss and tweak and dub until they get all the kinks out and everything sounds great. Others are thwarted by the limitations of studio (or the producer/engineer) and show their true brilliance in a club or on a stage.

The first time I saw The Who, it forever changed how I felt about their albums. Pete, Roger, John, and Keith in the flesh is the best. Same with Deep Purple, Grateful Dead, and Pink Floyd. :band:

With some other big name artists whom I won't name to avoid a fight, I thought, this guy/gal/group should never leave the studio! This sucks. :barf:

Titanium Dome
03-04-2006, 10:44 AM
Sorry, forgot to include the point of the thread. :rolleyes:

Who do you think excels on the stage and who does better in the studio?

4343
03-04-2006, 02:20 PM
Sorry, forgot to include the point of the thread. :rolleyes:

Who do you think excels on the stage and who does better in the studio?

Both times I saw them... The first time indoors, there was so much feedback it drove me outdoors! hearing a mic start to ring drives me nuts, I just want to RUN to the mixer and pull down the fader with the flashing red light on it, but the deaf guy that was runing the board never noticed the ring until it broke out into 139 dB 1.35KKz oscillation!:barf: Gave me a headache, let me tell you! Watching the guy work his way down the board during the feedback, the WRONG way!!! was extremly painful. When it finally stopped, it seemed like I was the only one in the whole place that was pissed, it was like business as usual for the rest of the crowd...

hapy._.face
03-04-2006, 03:57 PM
The 'Dead sucked live, huh?

I'm not gonna go there- I will say I COMPLETELY disagree!

However, you do bring up a good point. you're only as good as your sound man.

Titanium Dome
03-04-2006, 04:32 PM
I only heard them once, at Michigan State University in '70 or '71. Between the chocolate m..., and the yellow sunshine, and the p.. smoke, and the beer, and the girl I went with who wore the T.I.T.S. (Texas Institute for Technological Studies, she claimed) t-shirt, maybe I wasn't paying that much attention. It was a far out time, though.

Good lord. It makes my eyes red just thinking about it. :spin:

Mr. Widget
03-04-2006, 05:45 PM
Sorry, forgot to include the point of the thread. :rolleyes:

Who do you think excels on the stage and who does better in the studio?For me it is more a question of venue. I will rarely go to a large show regardless of who is playing and really love the more intimate shows.

I have seen Joe Jackson several times in both Northern and Southern CA. A show of his I saw at the Wiltern Theater in Los Angeles was amazing. So was the Wiltern Theater. I wouldn't hesitate to see anyone there.


Here in SF, I love the Greek Theater at U.C. Berkeley and the Great American Music Hall in SF. I have heard that the Paramount Theater in Oakland is good, but I have never caught a show there. I generally don't like the Warfield Theater, though I saw Boz Scaggs there a few years back and they had the sound nailed... I was also ten feet away from the stage and it wasn't crazy loud. Many of the popular acts play the Shoreline Amphitheater down the peninsula... what a drag. Just hate it. The worst are the stadium shows... no way!


Widget

edgewound
03-04-2006, 06:47 PM
Vince Gill is incredible live and in the studio.

ZZ Top should stay in the studio.

John Mayer....I've seen live on TV and on the 'Eric Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival' DVD. Fantastic guitar player.

And...believe it or not, even at close to 70 years old...saw Tom Jones live in Las Vegas about 2-3 years ago at the MGM Grand...great show...he can still bring it, and sing just about anything....and does it well.

TiDome...I'm surprised at your disappointment list...those are some great musicians and singers. Bad sound company?

4343
03-04-2006, 07:12 PM
The 'Dead sucked live, huh?

I'm not gonna go there- I will say I COMPLETELY disagree!

However, you do bring up a good point. you're only as good as your sound man.

Or as good as the weakest player in the band.

But being on the lawn about a mile from the stage was pretty boring. Even with the big screens and the delay towers, it does seem that the artificial "enhancments" were a required part of that scene.

All in all I like their studio stuff a LOT more than ANY live recordings of them, and I have a lot of those... Something about having a producer telling them what works and what doesn't just brings up their creativity level, and having the ability to re-take until it's perfect is something some bands just need.

There's no re-do live! If your chops are not up to it, it shows.:barf:
I mixed a show once with Frankie Lane, he must been 89 or so, but every note, all nite long, spot on key! None of that old-man vibrato that made listening to Ole Blues Eyes so painful on his last tour... And the local 15 piece jazz band had not even rehearsed, they just sight-read every tune.

Anyone hear Mick on the latest tour? I was afraid to go, just thinking of his voice being possibly past it's prime...

Rolf
03-05-2006, 03:35 AM
The first time I saw The Who, it forever changed how I felt about their albums. Pete, Roger, John, and Keith in the flesh is the best. Same with Deep Purple, Grateful Dead, and Pink Floyd. :band:

With some other big name artists whom I won't name to avoid a fight, I thought, this guy/gal/group should never leave the studio! This sucks. :barf:

In my opinion the people THAT CAN play normally have good live sound. One of my long time favorites, Frank Zappa did never disappointed me in all the concerts I was on.

Titanium Dome
03-05-2006, 07:01 AM
Vince Gill is incredible live and in the studio.

ZZ Top should stay in the studio.

John Mayer....I've seen live on TV and on the 'Eric Clapton Crossroads Guitar Festival' DVD. Fantastic guitar player.

And...believe it or not, even at close to 70 years old...saw Tom Jones live in Las Vegas about 2-3 years ago at the MGM Grand...great show...he can still bring it, and sing just about anything....and does it well.

TiDome...I'm surprised at your disappointment list...those are some great musicians and singers. Bad sound company?

All the performers that sounded good to me used the house sound. Those that didn't, as a rule, seemed to use their own equipment on stage. However, with some, it was just their inability to perform at a level of musicality close to their recorded sound that was the issue. Sound quality was okay, but musicianship was poor.

hapy._.face
03-05-2006, 07:14 AM
Leo Kottke (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000003Z91/sr=8-2/qid=1141571932/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-4710604-9861764?%5Fencoding=UTF8) is a masterful musician. His live shows are insanely intimate and utilize some of the best (and rarest) microphones in the world; He has to be seen to be believed.

In a related story- Leo rented a room from my relatives when he was younger. He became good friends with my aunt (Rachel Coke-now deceased). He continually puts them in his liner notes. Music for the People is dedicated to 'The Cokes.'

When I was a budding guitarist living out west- Rachel introduced me to Leo. He showed me a few things, signed my guitar, and had dinner at our house. He invited me to a live show where my aunt and I got a table right at the front of the stage. Unreal sound!

Whenever he comes out my way (Baltimore) he playes a in a little brew pub called the Ram's Head (http://www.ramsheadtavern.com/rht.html) in Annapolis. The sound there is very good, and his performances are breathtaking. Hearing a properly miked 12 string acoustic being played in a small room with nearly perfect sound is an experience one doesn't soon forget!

Baltimore also has a dynamite little town in its suburbs called Catonsville. They call Catonsville "music town" because the main street is lined with music shops selling a variety of instruments (mostly guitars) ranging from mexi-retail to boutique. One shop of notable mention is Appalachian Bluegrass (http://www.appalachianbluegrass.com/about.html)- One of the world's first Taylor guitars dealers. It is renowned for world class repair and lessons. Every couple of weeks or so- the owner has a guest guitarist show up (Pat Kirtley (http://www.appalachianbluegrass.com/patpics.html) most recently) for a workshop tutorial. For about $20 (first come first served until only 15 tickets are sold) you can sit in a little room with creaky floors and trade licks with a famous musician. Of course, the sound and intimacy are untouchable. I've seen people come without a guitar- just to listen to everyone else play! How's that for a live show??

OK, so this was alittle long winded- but point is: Intimacy is everything for me. I wouldn't go to a large stadium show these days because I value my hearing, and I want my money's worth! I like to sit down- have a nice drink and enjoy the show. Maybe I'm getting old...:(

jim campbell
03-05-2006, 09:15 AM
you are not getting old dood.i recall going to see willy nelson in a "concert bowl" ,which is 1/2 of a hockey rink.i carefully selected my seat on the aisle in a spot where i could kick back and listen with a good drink etc.but all evening long people were tripping over me on the way to the beer line and back,as well as spilling a fair amount of it on me as well.it was just not a musical experience in any way.as an occasional classical concert goer i was appalled.during the performance kids in candy stripe costumes walk the aisles yelling "ice cold coke here".watching the crowd was proof that most of the people were there to socialize,drink,and take part in some event but it was definitely not for the music.i used to think that the venues should allow drinks at the seats but i now am convinced that the discreet hip flask made for more polite audiences.even in some classical venues it more resembles a cancer ward with all of the coughing.it has been suggested to me that a lot of folks just cannot sit still for anything and have a craving for attention that causes all of the yakking,wrapper rustling,coughing etc.that many people just cannot be sick all at once.ive been to the barbican crenter in london and the audiences were incredibly polite.i have been in the audience for shows where drunks heckled john sebastian and he actually had to acknowlege the idiot to shut him up.at the time i remember hoping that he wouldn't tell anyone what kind of hicks go to concerts here. i recently went to see buddy guy in a room full of drunks that were screaming "crank it up" every time he slowed the tempo or did a subtle ,lo volume passage,while others molested women as they walked down the aisles.i have attended outdoor events down south where drunks were getting arrested on the way into the venue but at least you know going in that it is a beer fest as much as a concert.beer sold by the quart in blazing hot sun,well you can guess.
on the artist side it seems that a lot of them come here early in a tour to shake out the bugs or phone in lacklustre performances.
if the act is rock or punk etc then the debate between live or recorded takes on a different dynamic.if you take out all of the lighting,crowd ambience ,stage acrobatics,and sheer volume,how does that stack up against the studio version.is it more a music thing or an event?i still go to some live shows but i pick them carefully.i still think that its about the music and being at the far end of a football stadium watching a bunch of over the hill drag queens (you can fill in the blank yourselves) on a big screen for a hundred or so bucks is just not on.so recorded music is for me as much the real deal as live,and either one can be positive or negative depending.you are not old dood you just want value for your hard earned cash.

Ken Pachkowsky
03-05-2006, 10:04 AM
Leo Kottke (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000003Z91/sr=8-2/qid=1141571932/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-4710604-9861764?%5Fencoding=UTF8) is a masterful musician.

Great story. Leo is a master of the acoustic guitar. Beantime (Mudlark album?) is a tune that always puts a smile on my face. It's a great little ditty. Would love to see him live.

Ken

hapy._.face
03-05-2006, 10:20 AM
Leo is a master of the acoustic guitar. Would love to see him live.

Ken



...I had been abused by a trombone for the preceding six or seven years. The guitar seemed fairly benign to me.


He makes his may to Vancouver on occasion- I'm sure you could catch him if you look for it.
He's also a great entertainer! Nothing but laughter and awe (a unique combination) fills each and every show.
He tells funny stories while tuning, and reveals his hopeless case of ADD- constantly going off subject. He can barely finish a sentence. Obviously, he does it on purpose to distract from the constant tuning a 12 string requires (when played the way Leo plays it!). By the end of the show- the audience is usually dying with laughter as he keeps you hanging on his every fractured word. Crowd killer!
Look at the dialogue for one of his shows:
http://www.guitarmusic.org/kottke/champaig74.html


It's nice to know I'm not getting old- but my values have certainly changed. How can one focus on the music with all that background noise? I love Willie Nelson, and would hate to see a good performance get killed like that. Willie is a sound junkie. Look at his last few albums and read the notes. He uses some great tube amps when in the studio! His stuff has been very well recorded in general. I think he's definately a music underdog. He could have traded licks with Django, I'm sure. Willie has a knack for putting emotion into whatever note strikes him at the moment- going completely off time, and bringing it all back without missing a beat. If someone were yelling for me to buy sodas during a solo- I'd freak out on 'em! I should stay away from venues like that...!

jim campbell
03-05-2006, 11:57 AM
i have heard willy's guitar playing and when he wants to he can play. there are lots of others who started out as serious players but later on realized that their audience wanted something else from them,as well as players locked into a rut of playing their back catalogues on the oldies circuit because audiences would not accept any new directions.no wonder some of them get jaded.but my biggest beef is reserved for the owners of venues that treat performers and audiences with no respect.cram em in,sell em a bunch of overpriced bs and herd em out the door.i think tonight ill check out the red headed stranger on musical fidelity.

oznob
03-05-2006, 05:45 PM
In my opinion the people THAT CAN play normally have good live sound. One of my long time favorites, Frank Zappa did never disappointed me in all the concerts I was on.

Right on the mark Rolf!

If you played in Zappa's band, you had to be good! When Anysley Dunbar was playing drums for him, AWESOME.

I recently saw Sir Paul McCartney in the Echo, I mean Arco, arena in Sacramento. Even in the nose bleed section the sound was very good. Leave it to him to have the best sound guys money can buy! I saw Tom Pettey there also and the sound was terrible! Maybe it was Tom???

I live in the relatively small town of Redding, CA, which, until recently, was a bastian of Country Hell! Last year the old movie theater was re-modeled and is hosting some decent concerts. I saw Robert Cray and Buddy Guy there and both were fantastic! There house PA leaves a bit to be desired though. Not a red label to be found! I think the Mains are Reinkus-Heinz but I'm not sure. Couldn't get a good look at the amps.

As far as live vs recorded, I agree it depends on the band and the recording. One of my favorite live bands was/is Little Feat. I feel they were much better live than in the studio. "Waiting for Columbus" is on the top of my list of favorite live recordings.

The best live show I ever saw was The Allman Brothers at the Concord CA Pavillion. They were ON that night and did three encores!

I am re-listening to all my live CD's through my recently aquired 4430's. I am enjoying that thoroughly! All in all, I am more partial to good live recordings than studio.

Mark

Hamilton
03-05-2006, 08:26 PM
Great concerts :

Jefferson Airplane, Mountain, Emerson-Lake & Palmer, Yes, Deep Purple, original Journey, Vince Gill, Ray Price, Judas Priest, Jethro Tull, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Johnny Winter, original Black Sabbath.

Bad concerts :

Grateful Dead, Doors, Bon-Jovi, Quick Silver Messenger Service.

4343
03-05-2006, 08:58 PM
Round and Round Tour with the rotating stage was great, fifth row floor seats...:applaud: All those W-Boxes and JBL mids and highs were great too.

Winterland, King Crimson;) opening for Steve Miller. Those guys understood dynamics. The got LOUD for a few notes, and then so quiet you had to stop breathing to hear 'em. The last note ended in stunned silence that went on for quite some time before people realized they had finished, just great sounds!

Steve Miller knew nothing about dynamics, the amps came on during the break, and the HUM was louder than I could handle, one the noise started I had to leave...:barf:

jim campbell
03-05-2006, 09:28 PM
i blew off that same yes concert up here because the building here had sounded so awful in the past.people i knew went and said the sound was great.never did get a chance to see king crimson and court of the crimson king is numero uno on the desert island list.fripp did a show here once in his frippertronics period in this neat little 300 seat hall in the art gallery.i never got steve miller at all.there is an old tv performance by king crimson and i have it on a poor quality vhs.i hope that i see it on dvd soon.(elephant talk, indicipline etc)

johnaec
03-05-2006, 09:47 PM
Steve Miller knew nothing about dynamics...While I won't disagree with that, I do have to say it was the sound their bass player got out of four Sunn dual 15 bass cabinets with JBL's that first made me aware of what true low frequency reproduction was all about. I just had to find out what he was using, and once I did, it was JBL for me ever since...

John

4343
03-05-2006, 09:57 PM
a few years back, all the Meyer or whatever gets a bit much, at times it hurts.

Saw Little Feat acoustic during an AES in LA, the opening act sucked bigtime!:barf: Of course I went with some friends , one of them knew the sound crew, and we were warned ahead of time it would "hurt". Had fun sitting as far away from all the loaner EAW PA stacks as we could get (some new model just released at that AES), the singer was sooo BAD, my friends just couldn't help but start yelling at him "you suck", booing, etc...

Once the headliners came out and it was just acoustic, it sounded great! EAW:biting: notwithstanding! Still, I do prefer acoustics to be mic'ed with a large condensor mic, hearing them with the standard 57 or whatever was dissapointing. Leo Kottke, eh? I just might have to catch a show...:D

whizzer
03-06-2006, 09:48 AM
In terms of pure sound quality, the best big rig I ever heard was used for Stevie Wonder's tour, circa 1991, a Stanley's Screamers system; dual 15-inch Altec subwoofer systems had to be heard to be believed--how'd they do that? Frankfurt, Germany, late 1970, Humble Pie--watching and hearing this performance was like a religious experience--all the stuff from Live at the Fillmore; Old Federal Theater, NYC, could have been 1969--I can't remember the whole era that well--Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, performing Absolutely Free, live--ruta-ba-a-g-aa-aa-gaaa! The Police, I think it was their first tour of U.S.--Andy Summers was consummate sometimes less IS more. Joni Mitchel at Kent State. 1980--Jaco Pastorious and Keith Jarret--what more can you say? Disappointments--idiot sound metal head crew screwed up Christine McVie--a continuous incoherent mass of over-amplified ringing--what were they thinking? Stevie Nicks--couldn't remember the words to her own songs. Ten Years after, somewhere in deepest Ohio, muddiest mix of all time. Pat Benatar, Portland, Maine, mid-'80's--never could hear the vocals-- nothing but guitar.

jim campbell
03-06-2006, 10:02 AM
saw 10 years after w/ humble pie 69 70 ish was a wall of noise for both bands.rush seating caused a near stampede as the front of the building had glass doors all along the front and the idiots opened one door only.the surge from behind sent a few people thru the panes of glass and i still remember bracing against the frame and watching the things flex.but i think that no lessons were learned until after ohio later when people were trampled at a who concert

hapy._.face
03-06-2006, 10:31 AM
http://audioheritage.org/images/jbl/photos/pro-speakers/thumbs/grateful_small.jpg

The Dead were legendary live performers. I saw the Dead 21 times. Some venues were certainly better than others. Hard to say 'they sucked' based on one night. Hard to say any band sucks based on one night. You have to take in the whole tour, etc.
Even when Garcia died, and "The Other Ones" began touring- they were decent. Not GREAT, but decent. I remember when Hot Tuna opened for them- Now THAT was a great live band! Rusted Root was good too.

oznob
03-06-2006, 10:45 AM
I heard the Police were great live- stands to reason why I love my Police albums so much. I did see Sting perform live and it was very nice (not a big fan of his stuff, though). Same with Peter Gabriel- not a big fan- but WHOA! A great live performance/sound.

Anyone ever see Earth Wind and Fire perform? Don't laugh! What about Neil Diamond? Two GREAT live perfromances with great live sound- wouldn't get caught dead with either's recordings in my collection, though.
Funny how that is...:p

Sad to hear Little Feat didn't have a good live thing- excellent musicianship.
Speaking of Stevie- That Fleetwood Mac release The Dance- was a (mostly) a terrible mix! if the live thing was anywhere near that- I would have left.

My greatest desires for live performances are that of musicians no longer alive.
I would LOVE to have heard Coltrane, Art Pepper, Muddy Waters, Hendrix, etc...(fill in your own great). Would love to have been front row during Brubek at Carnegie!

I would have disagree with Little Feat not being good live! At least when Lowell George was alive, I thought they were better on stage than in the studio! Just my humble opinion.

johnaec
03-06-2006, 10:46 AM
Sad to hear Little Feat didn't have a good live thing- excellent musicianship.I've heard Little Feat live on numerous occasions, all the way back to including Lowell George. I'd have to say about half were above average, with a couple excellent ones, (especially one particular one with Lowell George), but the other half varied from below average to poor. Outside shows have generally been their best sounding ones, though I did hear them a few months ago in an excellent indoor theater seating situation. Their FOH consisted of a pair of Meyer UPA, (one 12" + horn), and two dual 15" subs total, and the sound was excellent, (true concert theater with only a few hundred capacity).

John

hapy._.face
03-06-2006, 10:56 AM
Little Feat rock- glad to hear they have some great live shows!

norealtalent
03-06-2006, 11:10 AM
:wtf: You ALL know the one about opinions, yeah, everybody's got one. :D Garcia is a god!

whizzer
03-06-2006, 11:52 AM
I saw The Jimi Hendrix Experience (Noel Redding was truly great) onstage at the Charleston, West Virginia Municipal Auditorium after his first album appeared. There were no PA's capable of doing what had to be done, so he had about 30,000 watts worth of Marshalls stacked across the stage behind him. It wasn't what you might call a balanced sound, but, then again, you sure could hear him play. Who among us, at the time, knew that it was history?

Titanium Dome
03-06-2006, 03:28 PM
I got to listen/ear bleed to the Grand Funk Railroad a couple of times. There was no way the sound those three guys put out could ever be contained in the studio. Only the highly commercial stuff (American Band, I'm Your Captain) ever sounded okay on vinyl. The rest of it was just too big.

toddalin
03-06-2006, 03:51 PM
I thought that the sound for Zappa was terrible when I saw him at the Santa Monica Civic Auditorium around '83.

BTW, in the old day, I was friends with Frank's drummer Terry Bozzio through a common supplie... err friend.

BTW, I was here:

http://audioheritage.org/images/readers-photos/morris/caljambw.jpg

and here:


http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/photos/pro-speakers/caljam-ii.jpg


And in both cases the JBLs in my living room sounded better.




In my opinion the people THAT CAN play normally have good live sound. One of my long time favorites, Frank Zappa did never disappointed me in all the concerts I was on.

jim campbell
03-06-2006, 04:25 PM
lowell george was little feat!!!!!

Robh3606
03-06-2006, 05:23 PM
Zappa's bands were great! The last time I saw him was when he did the Broadway the Hard Way Tour and first was for One Size Fits All. Saw him a bunch of times and I guess I was lucky cause he never disappointed.

Who else can be or is as good or better live??

David Bromberg
Peter Gabriel
Arlo Guthrie
Gentile Giant
Elton John
Billy Joel
ELO
King Crimson
Triumvirat
Pink Floyd
Metalica
Rick Wakeman
Yes on a good night
Moody Blues on a good night
Steppenwolf
Govt Mule
Steve Howe solo
The Dixie Dregs
Bela Fleck
Early Genesis

Rob:)

johnaec
03-06-2006, 05:36 PM
lowell george was little feat!!!!!Of course, in the truest sense, that's correct, but their current incarnation has been playing together for so long that they actually have a lot of good stuff of their own now, (in addition to still performing some real good versions of Lowell George stuff). But I agree - they'll never quite get to where they were with Lowell George.

John

toddalin
03-06-2006, 05:46 PM
Zappa was great..., just the sound in the room was terrible.

And to tell the truth, I've been to lots of concerts at lots of venues and while they can certainly be loud, due to room, or theater, or amphitheater acoustics, or seating location, or ..., none have ever sounded as good as I can produce from a CD/SACD/DVD-Audio using a Yamaha RX-Z9 in my own room. This is not to say that the musician's didn't put on fantastic shows some of which were actually listenable. The best acoustics/ overall sound, have actually been in the smaller venues.


Zappa's bands were great! The last time I saw him was when he did the Broadway the Hard Way Tour and first was for One Size Fits All. Saw him a bunch of times and I guess I was lucky cause he never disappointed.

Who else can be or is as good or better live??

David Bromberg
Peter Gabriel
Arlo Guthrie
Gentile Giant
Elton John
Billy Joel
ELO
King Crimson
Triumvirat
Pink Floyd
Metalica
Rick Wakeman
Yes on a good night
Moody Blues on a good night
Steppenwolf
Govt Mule
Steve Howe solo
The Dixie Dregs
Bela Fleck
Early Genesis

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
03-06-2006, 06:00 PM
Zappa was great..., just the sound in the room was terrible. The best acoustics/ overall sound, have actually been in the smaller venues.That is exactly what my earlier post was about.

I saw Zappa at the Berkeley Community Center a couple of decades ago... it was a fantastic show and the sound was decent... The venue was on the smaller side.

Back in the day Todd Rundgren was an artist who was very particular about his house sound... and it was usually quite good.


Widget

Robh3606
03-06-2006, 06:08 PM
It's a live show in a venue, not your stereo. It's never going to be as good unless it's an outdoor show and the guy on the board knows his stuff. Even then you will never get the focus imaging and balance you get at home. Kinda goes without saying. The best live shows have been outside or is a real small place with acoustic instruments. Once you go amplified all hell breaks loose. I missed the boat on this I guess I was thinking the music coming alive not really the sound. I don't look for good sound live anymore. Just bring earplugs and go with the flow. Best place for me to see a show is Jones Beach and Brookhaven both are outside amphitheaters.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
03-06-2006, 06:27 PM
Missed the boat???

I saw Peter Gabriel a few years back... a hell of a great show. The sound sucked.

I saw Pearl Jam, Todd Rundgren, Shawn Colvin, Neil Young, Ricki Lee Jones, and a pile of other bands and musicians all at The Greek Theater in Berkeley and they all sounded better than any stereo I've heard. It is an outdoor venue. The Shoreline Amphitheater is also outdoors... it sucks. A good room can certainly sound great, but I agree... it is tough for an amplified band to sound great indoors or out.

Then there is the energy of the crowd... you'll never get that from a stereo.


Widget

Ken Pachkowsky
03-06-2006, 06:33 PM
lowell george was little feat!!!!!

I would have to agree he was the driving force for their musical style. I have most of their albums if not all. Robert Palmer used them on several of his albums as well. He toured with them on a regular basis is my understanding.

Great Band

Ken

jim campbell
03-06-2006, 06:50 PM
it may be tough to sound good amped and indoors but i have seen it done often enough to think that it should be the norm not the exception.the biggest thing is a tendency to be too loud for the room.dont get me wrong ,i like it loud,but clear.

Robh3606
03-06-2006, 07:29 PM
Hello Jim

The biggest problem I have had are the sound in the larger venues, some bands can set up and sound great others just plain rotten. Having your ears bleed just sucks all around. I have actually left shows rather than sit through it. Its just not worth it at least not now it's not. The other problem is the larger shows you may not have a choice on seating so it's hit or miss on the sound. I have the Nassau Coliseum and MSG as the two larger concert venues and both can sound great or lossy all depending on where you sit and the bands set up. Seems it's always a crap shoot.

Hey Ian remember how good Steve Howe sounded at the Downtown??? Saw Ambrosia and Asia there and they were so loud they only sounded good in the Mens Room. What disapointment that was. Here we had a small place where you know it could sound good only to get Ear Bleed. You would have thought all the people covering their ears would have been enough of a hint to turn it down. I felt sorry for the poor souls that were at tables and couldn't move back.

Rob:)

hapy._.face
03-07-2006, 07:18 AM
And now for something completely different-

Some metal bands were great live as they INSISTED on excellent live soundmen. I caught the Clash of the Titans tour back in the 90's; Megadeth, Anthrax, Alice in Chains (rare live show with Layne clean and sober), and Slayer all sounded superb. Tight, articulate, and clean with neraly flawless performances from each band. It wasn't too loud- just right. Great mix. All on one ticket!

At the risk of great humility- Jane's Addiction (late 90's) was amazing live. In fact- one of the best shows I've ever been to. The Rollins band opened (not the best live performance), and the whole mood was killed. Then- millions of white christmas lights lit up the sky- The smell of incense flooded the place, a subtle bass solo was building, and Perry took the stage- got nearly naked and dosed his entire body with a bottle of wine. They broke into song and it was pure entertainment the whole night long. Great show. Hot girls, too! Ah..memories...;)


Thanks, 'Dome for getting another great thread going. You have a skill.

Hamilton
03-07-2006, 08:13 AM
...Alice in Chains (rare live show with Layne clean and sober...
Oh man, I would'a like to have seen that, I love that Seattle grunge sound.

Another live band that sounded absolutely spectacular was Little River Band, and that was at a county fair! Who would'a thunk... But, I can only thank a great sound guy for that fantastic mix.

edgewound
03-07-2006, 10:26 AM
I just bought another classically, technically brilliant Live CD. Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis, Jr.: The RatPack Live at The Sands....Sept. 1963. Get this one....it captures the fun those guys had with a great band and a live audience at their place. The recording is masterful...the joking between these guys is hilarious and the pure talent is virtually unmatched. Five stars....well for me anyway:D

Mr. Widget
03-07-2006, 10:35 AM
Perhaps you should start a new thread about this topic. Sonically I don't typically like "live albums" as much as studio, but they are frequently more musically involving. I have many live albums that suck sonically, but I love the music so there you are...


I'll check the Rat Pack album out.


Widget

hapy._.face
03-07-2006, 10:50 AM
I agree with you Widget. Most live albums have annoying mixes. I hate the typical loud applause; It's really bad when someone in the crowd is a little too close to the mics.

The best live albums I've ever heard are:
1.Dave Brubeck . Carnegie Hall
2. Allison Kraus . Union Station

Both exceptional.

Titanium Dome
03-07-2006, 12:29 PM
I agree with you Widget. Most live albums have annoying mixes. I hate the typical loud applause; It's really bad when someone in the crowd is a little too close to the mics.

The best live albums I've ever heard are:
1.Dave Brubeck . Carnegie Hall
2. Allison Kraus . Union Station

Both exceptional.


Yeah, like on the Rolling Stones live LP Get Your Ya-Yas Out where that annoying chick keeps shouting, "Paint It Black! Paint It Black, you devil!"

JuniorJBL
03-07-2006, 01:12 PM
There live show in Vegas at The Venetian Hotel was Absolutly Awesome.
Their system and mix is great.
SteelyDan was good here in colorado as well. (outdoors at the "Green") :applaud:

hapy._.face
03-07-2006, 03:58 PM
Yeah, like on the Rolling Stones live LP Get Your Ya-Yas Out where that annoying chick keeps shouting, "Paint It Black! Paint It Black, you devil!"

Oh yeah.....forever immortalized as a dumb ass. Everyone wants her dead, I'm sure. :D
Nearly every live recording has it's idiot crying out.

This brings up other questions:
What methodology are they using when they record these shows? Are they just sticking a few mics out there? Shouldn't they run it through the boards?? If I knew I was being recorded in that scenario- I would insist on it being done through the board....

...seems to me if you use several mics, and each mic is picking up a particualr instrument plus some crowd noise- the end result is too much crowd noise. (??)

Any experts on the subject??

Titanium Dome
03-08-2006, 10:35 AM
We've got lots of knob turners, amp toters, speaker luggers, and console jockeys on this site.* Their insight would be very interesting.

My limited experience tells me that the sound engineers put thier own mikes in place to try to create the aural experience at a given ideal location in the venue rather than what's going through the boards. I call it the "Row 16" syndrome.

Someone who actually knows...?





*All terms of endearment, I assure you. :)

edgewound
03-08-2006, 11:50 AM
We've got lots of knob turners, amp toters, speaker luggers, and console jockeys on this site.* Their insight would be very interesting.

My limited experience tells me that the sound engineers put thier own mikes in place to try to create the aural experience at a given ideal location in the venue rather than what's going through the boards. I call it the "Row 16" syndrome.

Someone who actually knows...?





*All terms of endearment, I assure you. :)

Usually, the mics on stage are split to different consoles....house and recording, with various mics placed around the venue for stage room ambience and crowd sounds. The whole idea of recording a live show is to capture the essence of the concert experience...and hopefully a great performance. As with anything...some turn out better than others. Row 16 isn't such a bad seat.

Oldmics
03-08-2006, 12:44 PM
Quote from edgewound

"Row 16 isn't such a bad seat."

NOW I KNOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its your head in front of me.:banghead:

Oldmics-Row 17 Season Ticket Holder :blink:

Titanium Dome
03-08-2006, 07:47 PM
Quote from edgewound

"Row 16 isn't such a bad seat."

NOW I KNOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its your head in front of me.:banghead:

Oldmics-Row 17 Season Ticket Holder :blink:

:rotfl:

It's not a bad seat in the concert hall, but tends to be less than ideal in my house. ;)

I used that term in deference to Bogen Electronics who once upon a time sold a line of Row 16 loudspeakers.

edgewound
03-09-2006, 10:59 AM
:rotfl:

I used that term in deference to Bogen Electronics who once upon a time sold a line of Row 16 loudspeakers.

I guess I'm not old enough to get that joke.;) :p .

....and how dare you pollute this site with Bogen....geez that's worse than Bose...:rotfl:

Mr. Widget
03-09-2006, 11:04 AM
I guess I'm not old enough to get that joke.;) :p .

....and how dare you pollute this site with Bogen....geez that's worse than Bose...:rotfl:Surprisingly they are still in business... must be because they still make horns.:applaud:
http://www.bogen.com/products/

I am sure each of our lives has been touched by Bogen.:D


Widget

edgewound
03-09-2006, 11:25 AM
Surprisingly they are still in business... must be because they still make horns.:applaud:
http://www.bogen.com/products/

I am sure each of our lives has been touched by Bogen.:D


Widget

Is that "touched"? or "intruded upon"?:D

moldyoldy
03-09-2006, 02:31 PM
To me, the difference between live and recorded music is like the difference between real sex and one-handed porn....one requires focus on the moment, the other, a vivid imagination....you should have adequate experience with the former to properly enjoy the latter.

Titanium Dome
04-26-2006, 10:33 PM
If you take a "live" performance like certain sequences from U2's Rattle and Hum (Laserdisc AC-3) or Bonnie Raitt's Road Tested (DVD-A), you'll definitely get a more musical performance than if you were at the venues where these were recorded.

Of course, this points out the conundrum of live vs. studio recordings, as opposed to live vs. recorded music.

Much is gained in the controlled recording and mixing of a live program, but much is also lost.

Mr. Widget
04-26-2006, 10:52 PM
If you take a "live" performance like certain sequences from U2's Rattle and Hum (Laserdisc AC-3) ...I don't have a laser disc player. Have you compared the laserdisc to the DVD?

I have the DVD and it is a bit bright... and a bit thin in the bass. I love the music and do play it at maximum SPL and even considering these unfortunate realities of the soundtrack I agree that it is cleaner and more clear sounding than any stadium show can be... if you like U2 up to the Joshua Tree era... it is an awesome disc.

There is something special about the energy of being at a live show that we'll never fully capture though.

Widget

Titanium Dome
04-26-2006, 11:17 PM
I don't have a laser disc player. Have you compared the laserdisc to the DVD?

I have the DVD and it is a bit bright... and a bit thin in the bass. I love the music and do play it at maximum SPL and even considering these unfortunate realities of the soundtrack I agree that it is cleaner and more clear sounding than any stadium show can be... if you like U2 up to the Joshua Tree era... it is an awesome disc.

There is something special about the energy of being at a live show that we'll never fully capture though.

Widget


Yeah, I specifically picked the LD over the DVD for my post. I have both, plus the VHS. :shock: The DVD video is better, but the LD AC-3 audio is better. The VHS is, well, crap.

When I go out to the desert, I like to stay either where U2 stayed or the inn where Gram Parsons died. I've visited the room he died in, but haven't slept in it. <<creepy> I slept a couple doors down.

Steve Gonzales
04-26-2006, 11:19 PM
Surprisingly they are still in business... must be because they still make horns.:applaud:
http://www.bogen.com/products/

I am sure each of our lives has been touched by Bogen.:D


Widget In my best Col. Klink voice : " Booooo-gen!" :p

Ken Pachkowsky
07-14-2006, 10:57 PM
For those that have never heard Patricia Barber, do yourself a favor and pick this up. This ranks as one of if not the best live cd I have heard to date. This cd is available as a DVD on her website. Yes I have ordered it.

The musicians are world class. Patricia puts together some interesting arrangements and tickles the ivories very well.

Ken

Mike Caldwell
07-16-2006, 05:53 PM
Hello
If anyone would be interested I'll send them a sample of live recordings I have done. These are straight board mix recordings of various music types with no post production tricks.


Mike Caldwell