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View Full Version : 2441/2397 combo, first listen



Steve Gonzales
03-01-2006, 11:45 PM
First I want to thank my best bud, member Norealtalent for finding and delivering to me, both the 2441's and 2397's, you've NEVER let me down!!

At his and Mr Widget's urging, I took a leap of faith and went BIG. Well fella's, it was worth the time and expense. I had some 375's a while back and loved them, but they were not hooked up to the right x-over, but still, I could appreciate them and their smooth output. Now, these bad boys are properly crossed over (M553) and hooked up to a VTL model 45, EL34 based amp. WONDERFUL, SMOOTH and POWERFUL. I get it now. Though far from perfect, it is a solid foundation to work from. The soundstage just got real wide, the vocals are spot on, the sense of effortless, unstrained output leaves little to be desired at this point. These are my personal observations. One other thing, my 375's had the wax seals intact, so I never got to look at the diaphragms, but I cracked these open and WOW!!!, there's a DOME!!. You know, I took a chance on this combo, an informed one, I should say, because of all the positive things said about the 2397's smooth delivery and NRT's own endorsement based on actual long term listening experience. In a nutshell, this is the best midrange I've EVER had the pleasure of listening to, much less own, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!. If you want to get into horns and can find this combo, grab em', they will not disappoint you. Steve G.

Mr. Widget
03-01-2006, 11:57 PM
Hi Steve,

I am glad you've had a chance to audition that combo. I do think it is wonderful. From your pics I'd suggest you try putting up some temporary sound absorbers at the point of first reflection from the horns. I would guess a 4' by 4' piece of egg crate foam or, better yet, Sonex would really open up your sound and smooth it even further.

I am fortunate enough to have adjustable damping control on my walls... basically floor to ceiling velvet curtains that I can open and close... the 2397s really like the side walls to be tamed. If you can give it a trial, you can decide if it's worth the effort or not to make some form of aesthetically acceptable room treatment.

Widget

Steve Gonzales
03-02-2006, 12:00 AM
I'll give it a whirl. Thanks for the encouragement too, I'm very pleased.

norealtalent
03-02-2006, 12:01 AM
:thmbsup: :thmbsup: :thmbsup:
Wait till you hear the Be's!!!!

Steve Gonzales
03-02-2006, 12:04 AM
:thmbsup: :thmbsup: :thmbsup:
Wait till you hear the Be's!!!!

You RASCAL!!!.:applaud: :applaud:

Mr. Widget
03-02-2006, 12:10 AM
:thmbsup: :thmbsup: :thmbsup:
Wait till you here the Be's!!!!I'm not sold on that one... I have only been disappointed with adapters. I would say at the risk of getting banned ;) that the TAD 4001s do sound even better on the 2397... subtle and quite possibly not worth the big coin if cash is tight, but the inner detail and sense of dynamics is just that much better and they are slightly smoother.

I've posted this before, but here it is again. 2441 in green and the 4001 in blue.

Widget

JBLnsince1959
03-02-2006, 07:50 AM
Steve:

I must have missed this,but what is you crossover point?

4313B
03-02-2006, 08:39 AM
TADWhat's a TAD? Do you mean tadpole?

hapy._.face
03-02-2006, 08:43 AM
Thanks for the pep talk, Steve! I'm ready for the plunge this weekend- wish me sonic luck! I'll be using the 2435be's (again) thanks to our bud, Dave.

Hey Widget-

In the range where it matters- that graph isn't nearly as contrasting as I would think it SHOULD be considering the price of the 4001. Does look a little smoother...
In your experience- does one driver's specs reflect the entire make/model? A scientific approach would be to include about 10 drivers and have them averaged out to take in the tolerances evident in manufacturing runs. Probably too expensive for the ave guy to do- but I wonder if manufacturers do this. Or, do they run a bunch until they find one that specs out the way they want...
I'm new to RTA'a and I want to know what sort of variances to take into consideration when I get a readout. Thanks!
I was also wondering (so were many others) if the ferro fluid's viscosity has anything to do with performance in the 2435's? It would stand to reason that when they are used to the max in live sound- they might experience viscosity breakdown (like a car's motor oil). Thus, the dump on ebay.... any thoughts O wise one??

norealtalent
03-02-2006, 09:45 AM
I'm not sold on that one... I have only been disappointed with adapters. I would say at the risk of getting banned ;) that the TAD 4001s do sound even better on the 2397... subtle and quite possibly not worth the big coin if cash is tight, but the inner detail and sense of dynamics is just that much better and they are slightly smoother.

I've posted this before, but here it is again. 2441 in green and the 4001 in blue.

Widget

Those graphs look pretty close to identical. :applaud:

Do you think you being a TAD dealer might muffle your perpsective just a "tad?":D

hapy._.face
03-02-2006, 09:47 AM
:wtf: You're a TAD dealer, Widget? Cool! Can you hook me up with the 4001 a tad cheaper? j/k...I still can't afford it. lol.

Earl K
03-02-2006, 09:52 AM
Hey Widget-
I was wondering (so were many others) if the ferro fluid's viscosity has anything to do with performance in the 2435's? It would stand to reason that when they are used to the max in live sound- they might experience viscosity breakdown (like a car's motor oil). Thus, the dump on ebay.... any thoughts O wise one??

- Hopefully, you or Widget won't mind me jumping in on this question .

- A few years ago I spoke with the Radian people about adding ferrofluid into the gap of drivers using their aftermarket diaphragms . They replied it's doable but expect a decrease in HF/UHF performance due to the added mass/drag of the voice coil ( now semi-emersed in the magnetic fluid ).

- Regarding those eBay 2435H drivers in need of reconditioning . IMO, your theory holds merit in that the act of driving these drivers to the max may have had the effect of thermally dispersing the fluid fully over the voice coils. This would add extra weight and be dentrimental to performance by reducing the HF/UHF response. ( Usually, only enough ferrofluid is put into the gap so that 20% to 50% of the voice-coil is emersed & drags through it. & It does add drag or damping )

- FerroFluids are available in a wide range of viscosities . I've been told that trial & error is the usual approach taken to getting the correct match of fluid weight(power handling) to HF performance .

- I'm speculating that JBL Pros' "reconditioning" has a lot to do with (i) Fully cleaning the fluid from the Gap (ii) Removing the "thinned & dispersed oil" from the voice coils & (iii) Reinstalling fresh ferrofluid back into the bottom of the gaps (iv) Refitting the diaphagms .

After close to 3 decades in the SR business / that's my best guess . :p

- FerroFluid is ( IME ) a power handling "fix" / not a response fix . I much prefer what JBL achieves ( for HiFi purposes ) with its' creative application of aquaplas or other so called poly-laminates. Take a look at the reduced 3rd harmonic distortion in the 435Be versus the 2435H ( somewhere in Widgets' 243x thread of comparitive measurements ) .

- I have a pair of brazilian drivers ( bought for evaluation 6 years ago ) that use FerroFluid. Even though the diaphragms are titanium , the magnetic fluid damps out the typical titanium "nasties". All in all, their response is very "calm" for a titanium diaphragm. I attribute this to the FerroFluid ™ in the gap. Too bad the driver has so many other response anomalies that render it unusable.

:)

FerroTec (http://www.ferrofluidics.com/usa/audio_fluids.htm) , manufacturer of FerroFluids ™ .

Steve Gonzales
03-02-2006, 10:08 AM
Steve:

I must have missed this,but what is you crossover point?
The horn comes in at 800hz and then hands off at 5khz. The M553's maximum mid to high point is 5khz, as Scotty, from StarTrek would say:"I'm givin' her all she's got captain!". But here's one cool thing, the L220/222's original passive crossover points are 800hz/5khz. Like I said, it's not perfect, but a good start. Ideally, I would like to raise the upper crossover point to at least 8khz, maybe a little higher when I get into swapping crossovers. Thanks, Steve G.

Steve Gonzales
03-02-2006, 10:17 AM
Thanks for the pep talk, Steve! I'm ready for the plunge this weekend- wish me sonic luck! I'll be using the 2435be's (again) thanks to our bud, Dave.

Hey Widget-

In the range where it matters- that graph isn't nearly as contrasting as I would think it SHOULD be considering the price of the 4001. Does look a little smoother...
In your experience- does one driver's specs reflect the entire make/model? A scientific approach would be to include about 10 drivers and have them averaged out to take in the tolerances evident in manufacturing runs. Probably too expensive for the ave guy to do- but I wonder if manufacturers do this. Or, do they run a bunch until they find one that specs out the way they want...
I'm new to RTA'a and I want to know what sort of variances to take into consideration when I get a readout. Thanks!
I was also wondering (so were many others) if the ferro fluid's viscosity has anything to do with performance in the 2435's? It would stand to reason that when they are used to the max in live sound- they might experience viscosity breakdown (like a car's motor oil). Thus, the dump on ebay.... any thoughts O wise one??
I think that the fact that you've got Dave on your side negates the need for luck. We've talked about your new set up and it should be very interesting. Lots of potential there. Quite the step forward from an L212 system. Go get em' !.

hapy._.face
03-02-2006, 10:19 AM
Steve G-

Thanks!


Earl-

Thank you so much for the post! I have learned something valuable yet again. :thmbsup:

Mr. Widget
03-02-2006, 11:03 AM
Hey Widget-

In the range where it matters- that graph isn't nearly as contrasting as I would think it SHOULD be considering the price of the 4001. Does look a little smoother...To avoid heading OT I have answered here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=96544#post96544


In your experience- does one driver's specs reflect the entire make/model?If they are new and working properly they are typically quite similar. Most of the drivers that I have measured from eBay purchases are all over the map.

BTW: The curves I posted were from a mint condition TAD driver that was a studio's back up and had seen almost no use, and the 2441 was a JBL factory reconditioned unit that had been re-magnetized, aligned and with a new diaphragm.


Widget

scott fitlin
03-02-2006, 11:40 AM
The horn comes in at 800hz and then hands off at 5khz. The M553's maximum mid to high point is 5khz, as Scotty, from StarTrek would say:"I'm givin' her all she's got captain!". But here's one cool thing, the L220/222's original passive crossover points are 800hz/5khz. Like I said, it's not perfect, but a good start. Ideally, I would like to raise the upper crossover point to at least 8khz, maybe a little higher when I get into swapping crossovers. Thanks, Steve G.IMHO, when you can, raise your xover to 8K, the horns should sound nicer, and the tweeter will sound smoother!

I run my 2441/2395 up to 7K, and then crossover to the 2404, I have always found that any lower than 7K, the highs get too rough sounding!

Those 2397,s are sweeeet, always were, and the 2441, thats the bombdiggety!

I like that blue paint job of yours!!! Looks smooth.

:D

hapy._.face
03-02-2006, 11:57 AM
Thanks, Widget!

Steve Gonzales
03-02-2006, 02:19 PM
IMHO, when you can, raise your xover to 8K, the horns should sound nicer, and the tweeter will sound smoother!

I run my 2441/2395 up to 7K, and then crossover to the 2404, I have always found that any lower than 7K, the highs get too rough sounding!

Those 2397,s are sweeeet, always were, and the 2441, thats the bombdiggety!

I like that blue paint job of yours!!! Looks smooth.

:D Thanks Scotty, I look forward to having that ability. Thank you for the thumbs up on the paint too. I figured that they deserved some extra TLC. That process is a pain in the rectorus, let me tell you! I would have loved to hear my old 375/2395 set up in this incarnation of my system. Those babies look/sound awesome! :p . Regards, Steve G.

paragon
03-03-2006, 12:20 PM
Steve,

The 2397 is the best prof. Horn i ever heared you can get for home HiFi-listening ! All other old Horn-Lens combi`s are bad compared to this wideangle woodhorn.

Harkness
03-03-2006, 02:39 PM
i'm quite partial to the 375/2397 combination myself.

nice that you have a chance to hear them with your 2441. probably very similar sounding considering you have another crossover/driver for the highs.

the paint job looks great too. i'd love to touch up the edges on mine, but i don't want to completely repaint them. curiously, mine have sequential serials, as do my throat adaptors. how rare is that, i wonder (not that it matters i don't think).

norealtalent
03-03-2006, 02:50 PM
...curiously, mine have sequential serials, as do my throat adaptors. how rare is that, i wonder (not that it matters i don't think). It matters to collectors and crazy people like me. I think it is un beleivably rare. They may be the only sequential pair left in existence. COOL!:bouncy:

Harkness
03-04-2006, 08:48 PM
I think it is un beleivably rare. They may be the only sequential pair left in existence. COOL!:bouncy:

woah! what a thought! :spchless:

Steve Gonzales
03-06-2006, 11:42 PM
It matters to collectors and crazy people like me. I think it is un beleivably rare. They may be the only sequential pair left in existence. COOL!:bouncy:

Yeah, wouldn't touch those babies. My pair was cosmetically challenged so it was a no brainer. I've been a painter for 20+ years and I found this to be one of the most complex jobs I've tackled because of the shape. Worth the trouble, but I wouldn't want to do it again. Thank you for the thumbs up, Steve G.

Regis
03-07-2006, 03:49 PM
Nice job Steve, I'm glad the blue horns are up and running. Will have to have a test listen one o' these days! Now if I can just get my hands on the six 375's and horns hanging 35 feet off the hangar floor as a PA system...