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View Full Version : D130 versus D130F for Fender amp--help!



steveokla
03-01-2006, 08:21 AM
I'm brand new to the forum and, frankly, pretty ignorant about speakers. I'd like to install a D130 '15, 8 ohm speaker in my '64 Fender Vibroverb amp. These, of course, are not easy to come by, especially in their 'unreconed' state, which is my preference. I seel these speakers from time-to-time on e bay, but onlly occassionally those with the 'F' (Fender) designation. I more often see the D130 'full range'. I know the F was marketed as the instrument speaker version of the D130, and I know there were some alterations--to the speaker frame, I believe--for the F model. That said, will the D130 (sans 'F') sound and perform the same in my Vibroverb as the F version? Or, should I hold-out for the D130F?

Also, all my searching to date has been on e-bay, and, franky, I don't really know if that's a reliable source for these speakers or not. I was hoping that you JBL experts might also counsel on reliable, trustworthy sources for finding these speakers. Thank you, Steveokla.

oznob
03-01-2006, 08:45 AM
Welcome to the Forum! As I recall, Leo Fender, James B. Lansing and Dick Dale collaborated to make the D130 suitable for guitar amps which had more power, distortion etc. than they were originally designed for. Dick Dale loved the sound of the D130 with his guitar amps but kept blowing them as they were originally designed for home use with much lower power amps. Some of the guys here can correct me if I'm wrong but, I believe the D130F has a larger voice coil and was made to dissipate more heat. You can check the search link to find out additional and, probably more accurate info. I have a pair of original 16 ohm D130's from 1958. The cone and voice coils were very bad so I had to have them completely re-built. They had to be sent to JBL to be machined for the larger voice coils of today and re-magnetized. I had them coned for 8 ohm and used them in a Bassman cabinet. A guitar player I know has a showman cabinet with D130F's in them. We did and A/B using the same amp and found very little, if any, difference in the sound between the two. Any slight difference could be from the cabinet design? In essence the D130's were made into D130F's for lack of a better description. I am going to sell the re-built D130's, PM me if you are interested.

Mark

Hamilton
03-01-2006, 09:24 AM
Cool on the '64 Vibroverb.

I made the dreadful mistake of selling mine about seven years ago... :( :( :( ...man, what a mistake.

steveokla
03-01-2006, 09:58 AM
Thanks Mark. Here's something I've tracked down that will doubtless mean more to you than to a speaker Neanderthal like myself. Perhaps you could explain the implications--this is a response to some questions (on some message board) about D130's apparently directed to Harvey Gerst (sp?) who, it appears, was responsible for the engineering of these speakers, at least in part. Here's what he says:

I never had the honor of meeting or talking to Dick Dale, so I'd have to say
that perhaps his memory has been clouded by the passing years. It's true that
the JBL F series was partly about improving the current 2 models being used by
Fender and others, namely the D130 and D131. It was my proposal to expand the
line of speakers and at the same time, make some refinements to those speakers
to make them more suitable to the guitar market. Here's what I did and why:

Opened the voice coil gap slightly on the D130F to allow more tolerance in
mounting. Most people didn't realize that even though 8 mounting holes were
available, only using four is the recomended mounting. And you don't screw them
down tight to the board - that warps the frame. You use two fingers to do the
final tightening - the casket will them complete the seal. When you warp the
frame by overtightening, the voice coil can go out of round and eventually drag
and short out. I opened the gap slightly to allow for this problem with just a
very slight loss in efficiency - less than 1 dB.
> For the original poster - regarding power ratings, I checked my
> official(3/70) JBL spec sheet for the F models and the 110F, 120F, & 130F
> are all rated at 100W continuous, the 140F @ 150W continuous. JBL defines
> 'continuous power' in my 4311B spec sheet as 3dB greater than RMS which
> would put the RMS rating of a D130F at 50W. On the other hand, D120Fs &
> D130Fs ran reliably in Showman 12s, Showman 15s, and early Boogies at
> considerably more power, so Mr. Gerst's & JBL's ratings are not marketing
> hype! It also appears that the 120F & 130F use identical magnet structures
> @ 11 pounds, 12,000 gaus flux density, and 275,000 maxwells total flux.

The D120F and the D130F, like their close cousins, the D130 and D131, all shared
the same voice coil, dome, spider, and magnet assembies, except for the
slightly wider gap on the top plate. I think the flux density was really around
11,700 gauss or so on the 120F & 130F because of the slightly enlarged gap,
mentioned earlier.

Frankly, this doesn't mean a great deal to me, but I thought someone might translate. Many thanks, folks.

PS-Hamilton, doubtless you should have kept the VV, but, Lordy, what a collection of Marshalls!!

edgewound
03-01-2006, 10:16 AM
Hi Steve,

Do a forum search for member Harvey Gerst's posts. He is the man responsible for the D130F at JBL in the early 1960's and knows more than anyone...he's a member of the forum and looks in occassionally. That surf guitar player is full of himself when he claims to be responsible for the D130F....but what else is new? It's funny to see him strut around the NAMM show looking for attention. Best to keep our daughters away from him.;)

Anyway...:) :o: ...theres a reason the D130 led to the D130F. The D130F has a larger gap, .057", to maintain reliability for musical instrument use. The D130 has a .053" gap width that proved to be too tight a tolerance for the violent transients of the guitar and clumsy installation in guitar amps...the frame was frequently torqued down too tight on amp cabinet baffle boards warping the frame and cause voice rubs which led to early failure. The D130F also had "goop" coated on the paper surround to preserve the strength of the cone in the elements, otherwise the untreated paper would deteriorate prematurely under harsh conditions.

You really need to know what you're doing when searching eBay for speakers. I wouldn't put a vintage original D130 in a guitar amp....it's days would be numbered. I'd try to find a reconable D130F and have it reconed with a new E130 kit which is what the factory does. I'm a JBL Service Agency for 18 years so I'm well versed in what to do. A less costly alternative would be to find a K130 in working condition, about $100-$150.00 range, or find a reconeable frame $30-$50 range. A recone will cost $194.00 with a genuine factory kit...beware of aftermarket recones, they just aren't up to the factory specs. If you can find a good deal on a well done D130F recone, that's a good alternative too. then there's the more current E130 with ceramic magnet...slightly more midrange punch and about 10 pounds heavier. I use an E120 with my guitar amp, and it screams....but it's a little heavy.

You're welcome to PM me for contact info if you'd like to talk more.

Hope this helps.

oznob
03-01-2006, 10:17 AM
Some of what I and others have heard about the development of the F model speakers is probably myth or urban legend. If Harvey Gerst says it's so, then I am sure it is SO!

oznob
03-01-2006, 10:28 AM
Hi Steve,

Do a forum search for member Harvey Gerst's posts. He is the man responsible for the D130F at JBL in the early 1960's and knows more than anyone...he's a member of the forum and looks in occassionally. That surf guitar player is full of himself when he claims to be responsible for the D130F....but what else is new? It's funny to see him strut around the NAMM show looking for attention. Best to keep our daughters away from him.;)

Anyway...:) :o: ...theres a reason the D130 led to the D130F. The D130F has a larger gap, .057", to maintain reliability for musical instrument use. The D130 has a .053" gap width that proved to be too tight a tolerance for the violent transients of the guitar and clumsy installation in guitar amps...the frame was frequently torqued down too tight on amp cabinet baffle boards warping the frame and cause voice rubs which led to early failure. The D130F also had "goop" coated on the paper surround to preserve the strength of the cone in the elements, otherwise the untreated paper would deteriorate prematurely under harsh conditions.

You really need to know what you're doing when searching eBay for speakers. I wouldn't put a vintage original D130 in a guitar amp....it's days would be numbered. I'd try to find a reconable D130F and have it reconed with a new E130 kit which is what the factory does. I'm a JBL Service Agency for 18 years so I'm well versed in what to do. A less costly alternative would be to find a K130 in working condition, about $100-$150.00 range, or find a reconeable frame $30-$50 range. A recone will cost $194.00 with a genuine factory kit...beware of aftermarket recones, they just aren't up to the factory specs. If you can find a good deal on a well done D130F recone, that's a good alternative too. then there's the more current E130 with ceramic magnet...slightly more midrange punch and about 10 pounds heavier. I use an E120 with my guitar amp, and it screams....but it's a little heavy.

You're welcome to PM me for contact info if you'd like to talk more.

Hope this helps.

Hi Edge,

I had my D130's reconed with E130 kits and they are so nice! I have a 1974 SUNN model T head and it's a nice combination. Unfortunately, I have never gigged with them and I am full time on the drums now. Need some cash for triggers, mics and new booms. Going to have to part with the D130's. They cost me $500 to be machined and re-coned, OUCH, but they were done right with all JBL parts, I have the receipt and invoice. I would make someone a great deal on them.

Mark

steveokla
03-01-2006, 10:29 AM
Thank you very much, one and all. Edgewound--yours is a counsel of perfiection. That's precisely the sort of information I was hoping to get. I'll certainly start thinking about the alternatives you mention. Doubtless, it's in large measure the mystique and not particularly rational, but I sort of had my heart set on a D130F in original form, if it can be had. Are there any reliable sources likely to have any in their inventory?

That said, thank you for your invitation to visit some more on the matter--be assured it's much appreciated. I had earlier discounted the prospects of reconing on the grounds that the re-coned version would never sound like the original; but that may all be a myth I've encountered on various vintage amp forums. Given your obvous expertise, perhaps you can dispel those myths and others relating to reconing? Many, many thanks, Steve

edgewound
03-01-2006, 10:57 AM
Steve,

Thanks for the kind words. There's definitely a cool factor to find an original vintage D130F...and a high price tag...and a high likelyhood of limited time playing nirvanha. That's what you'll get with a 40+plus year old speaker...things just have a tenedency to dry up and quit after so long.

As far as recones go....when it's done right....clean...meticulous...and the cone kit is right....it's as good as new....because the business end is new.

As far as tone goes...a vintage paper surround D130F sounds a little different that a D/K130 reconed with a new E130 kit. First, it handles more power...300 watts in a sealed enclosure....150 watts in open back. The double half roll surround affords a little richer bottom end due to increased excursion. The D and K series alnico magnet/motor structures are virtually identical in gap flux,provided thay have a full charge, and gap width . Some actually prefer the expanded tonal range with a an E130 kit installed...I've heard some players say the D130F is a little too shrill in an open back combo, but the cone breaks up a little more due to limited excursion...it's a matter of taste.

I'm not going to talk you out of finding that pristine D130F your searching for, I'm just giving you the caveats...be prepared to pay $300-500 dollars for a minty one. You can always recone it later if it quits. Maybe you should find both....one for the collector value....one for the workhorse value.
Check out these recent eBay auctions for Vibroverbs:
http://cgi.ebay.com/1963-Fender-Vibroverb-Genuine-n-r_W0QQitemZ7389878318QQcategoryZ38074QQrdZ1QQcmdZV iewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-1963-Fender-Vibroverb-2x10-w-Cover-and-FS-NR_W0QQitemZ7392236761QQcategoryZ38074QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem

I hope my 1962 Tremolux gets there too....wishful thinking?

oznob
03-01-2006, 01:22 PM
http://www.dickdale.com/history.html

This is an interesting article on Dick Dale, "King of the Surf Guitar." It gives an account of his role in the creation of the D130F. I certainly don't believe everything I read but.....:hmm:

steveokla
03-01-2006, 02:24 PM
EW--again, my sincerest thanks for sharing your time and expertise. Be certain it is genuinely appreciated. This is an impressive site, and I'm very glad I stumbled onto it.

I'll take your counsel to heart. The quest for the holy grain minty D130F may be ill-fated in any case, such that I may wind-up going one of the directions you indicated. I also rather like the idea of the collector-plus-every day pair of speakers.

I had figured to pay around 300 or so for a first-rate D130F, but was certainly hoping to avoid having to pay much more (e.g., $500). Then again, I haven't even found any in the 300-500 range that are F's with original cones. It may all lead nowhere.

You're auctioning a Tremolux? Great amp. I guy that wound up playing bass for us when I was an adolescent had one--blonde, oxblood. Wonerful amp. Wish I had it now. Then again, there's so much of that old stuff that, had I known . . .

Personally, I'm on the hunt for a brown Bassman--looking at one on e-bay that looks good, but with goofy speakers (Jensen P12S, "Anico 5'. I believe that's a ludicrously low power speaker that would never hold up in a cranked bassman. Of course, could always pop some Oxfords in there or D120 Fs', I suppose. Well, thanks again, and kindest regards, Steve

Hamilton
03-01-2006, 04:52 PM
...That surf guitar player is full of himself when he claims to be responsible for the D130F....but what else is new? It's funny to see him strut around the NAMM show looking for attention. Best to keep our daughters away from him.;)
I shouldn't laugh at that but I think it's too profound not too. :D

oznob
03-01-2006, 07:08 PM
Say what you want about him personally, but one things for sure, HE CAN PLAY THAT STRAT!!!:rockon1:

A good friend of mine grew up in Hawthorne, CA. He said, back in the day, if The Beach Boys were playing a gig and Dick Dale and his Deltones were playing close by, guess who drew the biggest crowd?

Harvey Gerst
03-02-2006, 11:27 AM
http://www.dickdale.com/history.html

This is an interesting article on Dick Dale, "King of the Surf Guitar." It gives an account of his role in the creation of the D130F. I certainly don't believe everything I read but.....:hmm:The original D130 was around in the hifi world long before Dick Dale. I never met him, although I had heard his records.

The fact that he describes the alleged changes to the D130F - and get's it wrong means that he doesn't have a clue as to what the changes did to improve the D130 for musical instrument applications.

It wasn't "a rubberizing compound we applied to the edge of the D130 to improve cone stability due to large excursions". That's pure BS. It was the same damping "goop" we used on the D123. I used it to prevent the cone edge from drying out when the speakers were played outdoors. The "goop" was mainly used to prevent ringing in the D123, but I figured it would also help to keep the surround in the D130 from cracking and drying out.

There was no change to the voice coil whatsoever; that would require major reworking of our jigs and I was all about pitching the new MI line to Bill Thomas as a cheap way to increase sales and stop repair problems, by coming up with some cheap fixes, AND making the MI line more attractive by adding two new models (the D110F and D140F), built from existing parts.

Opening up the top plate was a no-brainer, since 1.) we didn't hafta do any major machinery changes, and 2.) it would prevent the power screwdriver, ham-handed idiots at Fender from torquing the hell out of the frame and causing the voice coil to warp. (Well, it would still warp, but the extra clearance in the new top plate would keep the windings from shorting out.) The new top plate resulted in less than a 1 dB drop in efficiency.

Dick Dale can posture all he wants; I never talked to him, Leo, or Freddy T. about the "F" series.

I wrote a one page proposal to Bill Thomas, outlining the ideas above and said it would probably increase sales of the MI stuff from $300,000 (where it was) to $1,000,000 within a year, at minimal cost to JBL. Bill Thomas said go for it, put me in charge, and we did $1,200,000 the first year. And that's the true story.

edgewound
03-02-2006, 11:42 AM
http://www.dickdale.com/history.html

This is an interesting article on Dick Dale, "King of the Surf Guitar." It gives an account of his role in the creation of the D130F. I certainly don't believe everything I read but.....:hmm:

Harvey, thanks for the true story.

I read the Dick Dale website...his first name says it all. :bs:

Dick Dale claims...in writing, for the whole world to see... to have invented the D130....unbelievable.

oznob
03-02-2006, 01:18 PM
I hate to put Dick Dale in the same category as Al Gore, you know, the guy who invented the internet. It's always disturbing when you put someone on a pedestal only to find out later they are full of crap.:blah:
Thanks Edge and Harvey for setting the record straight for me. I still like his guitar playing but will listen with a more jaded ear.:banghead:

hapy._.face
03-02-2006, 01:38 PM
Damn, this site is cool! I never knew there was so much difference between the 130 and 130F. I thought the F commanded more money because the fender amp freaks were all about keeping it perfect. Now I know why...
A bassman loaded with 130F is a wonderful thought that brings a smile to my happy face!


Harvey-
Thanks for your time and input here on the forum. GREATLY appreciated!


Edgewound-
You rock. I had no idea you were such a guitar guy. Respect factor: up 10 points.

edgewound
03-02-2006, 02:30 PM
Edgewound-
You rock. I had no idea you were such a guitar guy. Respect factor: up 10 points.

Well I guess that puts my respect factor at 10 points now:D :o: :p ;) :blink: :bouncy: :rotfl: :thmbsup:

louped garouv
03-02-2006, 03:26 PM
Personally, I'm on the hunt for a brown Bassman

a bit high IMO.....

http://denver.craigslist.org/msg/138447135.html

usual disclaimers.....

Hamilton
03-02-2006, 05:10 PM
It's always disturbing when you put someone on a pedestal only to find out later they are full of crap.:blah:
A very good friend of mine toured with "Dick" in the mid 70's on drums, the stories he told me were nauseating. That was 30 years ago and I'm pleased that I have forgotten most all of them.

I was reading in Fender's Frontline an interview with "Dick" in which he mentions that he doesn't make music, per se, but a "sound"...whatever that means. :blink: Heck, fingernails on a chalkboard is a sound...

Harvey Gerst
03-03-2006, 08:16 AM
Well I guess that puts my respect factor at 10 points now:D :o: :p ;) :blink: :bouncy: :rotfl: :thmbsup:
I guess I still have a little further to go (but I'm working on it)!!.
:applaud:

hapy._.face
03-03-2006, 08:30 AM
Look at that little gem! I remember when Boogie took those little Fenders and ripped em a new @$$- I was living in Petaluma, California at the time and I heard some of the very first ones available. Wish I woulda bought one of those early hotrodded Princeton's. :banghead:

Harvey-
Thanks again! Nice to see a face...somehow, I thought you'd be much older.

Harvey Gerst
03-03-2006, 09:19 AM
Harvey-
Thanks again! Nice to see a face...somehow, I thought you'd be much older.
Hell, I'll be 69 in May. I started at JBL when I was still in my teens. How much older do I hafta get? :blink:

BMWCCA
03-03-2006, 09:24 AM
Many thanks to Harvey :applaud: and all the others for chiming in on this thread. I'm finding this information fascinating. I'm also feeling confident now that I can use a spare D130 for my teen daughter when she swaps her Cello for a Les Paul later this year? (I was almost ashamed to admit I'd once played an EB-0 through my "home" speakers.) As long as she doesn't take the amp outside ;) . Thankfully my 030 systems seem to have "weathered" the many college parties in the shadow of the Blue Ridge Mountains where they played outside all day and all night, under cover of a porch when the rains hit. Thanks to you guys for building such wonderful, timeless instruments of sound.

johnaec
03-03-2006, 09:25 AM
Hey Harvey - is that the only shirt you own? :D

http://itrstudio.com/images/staff/harvey.jpg

http://itrstudio.com/staff.html

John

louped garouv
03-03-2006, 09:39 AM
Hey Harvey - is that the only shirt you own? :D



http://itrstudio.com/staff.html

John


LOL :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

that's cold.... :applaud:

Harvey Gerst
03-03-2006, 09:44 AM
Hey Harvey - is that the only shirt you own? :D

John
Yup, it's the only way I could afford all the other toys.



Some times, you just gotta get your priorities straight.

edgewound
03-03-2006, 09:51 AM
:o:
I guess I still have a little further to go (but I'm working on it)!!.
:applaud:

Hey Harvey....great to see a pic of you with the father of my Marshall....oops:o: ...made mistake with my original post...I have a Les Paul, too:) (getting old, sometimes sucks.)

You are way off the charts on the respect scale when it comes to this issue.

Your humility, down to earth demeanor, and influence for bringing the greatest musical instrument line of speakers to the forefront really needs to have the attention it deserves in the history books....it needs to be corrected on this site's historical archives, and the music world needs to know the true story...Credit cannot continue to go to that surf guitar noise creator...(It's hard to not say nastier things about him)

There needs to be a movement here to make sure credit goes to you, Harvey Gerst, Father of the D130F, on the the history of the "D-Series-F" designation of musical instrument-sound reinforcement loudspeakers.;):)
I think your influence is also responsible for the proliferation of JBL in concert sound, due to the added ruggedness of your modifications.

I have a feeling you might be a little uncomfortable with the accollades...but you are deserving.

Harvey Gerst
03-03-2006, 10:10 AM
Hey Harvey....great to see a pic of you with the father of my Les Paul.
Uhh, sorry, but that's Jim Marshall on the left, not Les Paul. I did meet Les Paul (one of my idols) several times.


You are way off the charts on the respect scale when it comes to this issue.

Your humility, down to earth demeanor, and influence for bringing the greatest musical instrument line of speakers to the forefront really needs to have the attention it deserves in the history books....it needs to be corrected on this site's historical archives, and the music world needs to know the true story...Credit cannot continue to go to that surf guitar noise creator...(It's hard to not say nastier things about him)

There needs to be a movement here to make sure credit goes to you, Harvey Gerst, Father of the D130F, on the the history of the "D-Series-F" designation of musical instrument-sound reinforcement loudspeakers.;):)
I think your influence is also responsible for the proliferation of JBL in concert sound, due to the added ruggedness of your modifications.
It didn't hurt that I was the only guitar player working at JBL at the time, so it was a little easier for me to figure out the problems and possible solutions.

I did try to expand the line and add PA stuff to it, but I was turned down, but it did finally happen after I left. Tony Lowe took over the Pro stuff, and he did a great job of finally convincing JBL to start making some PA speakers. I built a couple of large JBL loaded PA cabinets for The Trip (on Sunset), which I believe became the Sunn Colisiums and the Vox Churchills, after I left.

My years at JBL were some of the happiest years of my life. JBL, led by Bill Thomas, really was a family. We were all passionate about what we did. Looking back, it was an amazing company, with caring people that were more dedicated to their jobs and to producing a quality product than any company I've ever worked for since. Letting a bad product go out the door was unthinkable - to anybody.

Hamilton
03-03-2006, 10:44 AM
Hey Harvey, do you care if I throw your picture, with you 'n Jim, up on my website? I know there's a bunch of guys who would get a kick out of seeing the "Father of Loud" with the "Father of JBL MI". :D

Here's my ugly mug :

http://www.marshallcrunch.com/hamilton/Hamiltons-Marshall-Amps-files/Guvnor.jpg

Harvey Gerst
03-03-2006, 11:10 AM
Hey Harvey, do you care if I throw your picture, with you 'n Jim, up on my website? I know there's a bunch of guys who would get a kick out of seeing the "Father of Loud" with the "Father of JBL MI". :D

Here's my ugly mug :

http://www.marshallcrunch.com/hamilton/Hamiltons-Marshall-Amps-files/Guvnor.jpg
That picture of you and Jim prompted me to put mine up here. Sure, go for it.
As far as Jim being the "Father of Loud", dont forget I also helped design the Acoustic Control 261 guitar amp, and the 360 bass amp - both fairly loud beasts. Maybe I can be the "Evil Step-Child of Loud", or the "Illegitimate Son of Loud".

(There's a 361 in the background of the picture of all the JBL studio monitors on this site.)

Hamilton
03-03-2006, 11:38 AM
...the 360 bass amp - both fairly loud beasts.
Hah! I bought one of those new around '72 and it was plenty loud. But between you 'n me, my four D140Fs with a Showman head sounded much sweeter. :)

I eventually sold all that and got an SVT head with Sunn 2x15 cab, which got stolen. Man...we've really hi-jacked this thread. :D

Harvey Gerst
03-03-2006, 03:08 PM
Hah! I bought one of those new around '72 and it was plenty loud. But between you 'n me, my four D140Fs with a Showman head sounded much sweeter. :)

I eventually sold all that and got an SVT head with Sunn 2x15 cab, which got stolen. Man...we've really hi-jacked this thread. :D
Truth be known, my favorite rig would be an old Twin Reverb with a pair of D123's.

I guess between the D140F and the 360, maybe I could be at least be called the "Father of Bass Stuff".

Hamilton
03-03-2006, 11:29 PM
"The father of...(cough cough)...bottom end"????? :blink:

stephane RAME
03-07-2006, 11:50 PM
FENDER TWIN .
1980 .
2 JBL .