Finally my new babes have arrived (4435)

[baldrick]

Aprox 2 weeks after I paid for my 4435, I finally got them this afternoon :applaud:

My first impression: they were BIG!

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/IMG_1921.JPG

My second impression: they were heavy to carry

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/IMG_1925.JPG

My third impression: WOW

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/IMG_1926.JPG

My fourth and present impression: hmmm

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/IMG_1930.JPG

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/IMG_1932.JPG


To fill the impressions abit more I have to say that they first sounded absolutely great! Totally different than my 120TI but in a good way. But it didn't take very much listeining to question the bassresponse. I really thougt bassapperance would be greater than this... At present, my other/older speaker, 120TI with aditional 1200GTI woofer really outpreforms the 4435 when it comes to bassperforms. Hopefully this will change when I move the speakers to other part of the room, or maybe to another room.

We've just moved in to our new house so nearly nothing is in place at the moment so I hope things changes. Unfortunately the room doesn't seem to be very good when it comes to sound :( So maybe I have to change room for my stereo/home theater system.

The condition of the speakers are fairly good, some scratches in the cabinet but no big things. The drivers seems to be perfect BUT the foam on the woofers is not the way they originally were if I don't remember totally wrong. I know the foam have been changed some years ago.. could this have anything to do with the performens? It's professionaly refoamed with org JBL kits, but could they have used a wrong kit and what will this mean for the sound?

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/IMG_1934.JPG

[SUPERBEE]

(In my best OKIE drawl)

Them are sure some purty musicy boxes

[Earl K]

Hi,


I really thougt bassapperance would be greater than this... At present, my other/older speaker, 120TI with aditional 1200GTI woofer really outpreforms the 4435 when it comes to bassperforms. Hopefully this will change when I move the speakers to other part of the room, or maybe to another room.


- You should remove at least one of those woofers.

- Take some closeup pics . of a removed woofer ( show the front & the back ) . Then post the pics here .

- It's very hard to tell , but those look like the wrong woofers ( or at least the wrong surrounds ) .


The drivers seems to be perfect BUT the foam on the woofers is not the way they originally were if I don't remember totally wrong. I know the foam have been changed some years ago.. could this have anything to do with the performens? It's professionaly refoamed with org JBL kits, but could they have used a wrong kit and what will this mean for the sound?

- Are you sure that's a foam surround ? It looks like linen .


- Earl K

[johnaec]

It's professionaly refoamed with org JBL kits, but could they have used a wrong kit and what will this mean for the sound?First of all, JBL does not sell refoam kits, only complete recone kits. That said, the foam does not look like any I've ever seen before - it appears a really odd color. And it's hard to tell, but it looks like it was (incorrectly) glued to the front of the cones, not the back. It's quite possible that your lack of bass response could be caused by these refoam jobs. Unfortunately, it's likely the only real solution is to get the speakers reconed.

John

[baldrick]

Hi,
- Are you sure that's a foam surround ? It looks like linen .


:o: It could be that I use only the wrong term.... maybe what I mean by "foam" is in fact surround or a recone?

Here's a close up of my woofer and a close up of the original from the brochure, it's definetly NOT the same. I know the org woofer in 4435 is the 2234H, and is the woofer in the right the only way a 2234H could look or could it also look like mine?

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/oppheng.jpg

ANyway, to find this out, I'll be right back with pictures of the woofer from the backside ;)

[jbl4ever]

The speakers look like aftermarket 2225 accordion edge

[johnaec]

The speakers look like aftermarket 2225 accordion edgeI agree - an earlier owner must not have wanted to deal with foam-rot, so when needed, put corrugated surrounds in instead. :banghead: A good refoam was probably all they needed, but now, a total recone looks to be the only way to salvage these.

As I recall, this set was very inexpensive? Now we know why... And yes - those surrounds are virtually certain to be the cause of the lack of bass - they totally stiffen the suspension up and really raise the free-air resonant frequency.

John

[jbl4ever]

You maybe have 2205 or 2225 substituted instead of the 2234/35's
Still would ask for some money back
With the right woofers in there you will have more bass than the other ones by far

[Zilch]

Current price C8R2235 is $156. "Do not use mass ring."

I'd be looking for "compensation."

[Earl K]

It could be that I use only the wrong term.... maybe what I mean by "foam" is in fact surround or a recone?

Here's a close up of my woofer and a close up of the original from the brochure, it's definetly NOT the same. I know the org woofer in 4435 is the 2234H, and is the woofer in the right the only way a 2234H could look or could it also look like mine?

- I think you are right . You've used the wrong term .

(i) Foam = Sponge Rubber ( a specific type of surround )
Surround = a generic term to describe many types of materials holding a cone to the frame

(ii) Pull all the woofers to see if they say 2234H on the back .
- If they say 2225H , then you likely have the wrong coils installed , as well as the wrong surrounds .
- If they say 2234H, you may be lucky and have the correct ( longer voice coils ) with a pleated aftermarket linen surround installed instead of the foam rubber type .

- Assuming all these woofers have the wrong surrounds installed ( or worse ) the wrong voice coils / you'll need to contact the seller and demand some compensation . It's going to cost you , to put these things back into working order .
:(

[baldrick]

According to the backside of the woofer, it is an 2235H. But if I understand you right, you mean that the original woofer has been reconed to 2225?

http://home.broadpark.no/~torda/4435/woofer.jpg

Have the 4435 been delivered with both 2234 and 2235 or only 2234?`

Off course I don't like what you're saying that this is probably the reason for the "bad" performance. I paid $1000 for the speakers and that is chep, but of course if I have to pay the same amount to get them to be what they should, then it's not very cheap anymore....

[Earl K]

According to the backside of the woofer, it is an 2235H. But if I understand you right, you mean that the original woofer has been reconed to 2225?

- You understand everyone correct / it appears that the woofer has been reconed into a 2225H . Pull the rest , to see what they say .

- I'll get back to you with some specs . / do you have an accurate multimeter ?

:o:

- Here's a pic that shows a 2235H with it's foam edge .
- The second pic. shows a 2225h recone ( it's over 20 years old / note the old style latex/cork gasket ).

[baldrick]

- I'll get back to you with some specs . / do you have an accurate multimeter ?


I have a Fluke I think it's pretty accurate, tell me what to do and I'll see what I can find :)

[jbl4ever]

One woofer looks like the cloth is glued to the front of the speaker also. They sure are aftermarket
Do any of them have foam surrounds.:(

[johnaec]

I'm willing to bet that the cones may be 2235, but when the foam went, they put the accordian surrounds on. That's too bad.

What might get you by for a while, (and would surely sound better than the way they are now), would be to replace the accordian surrounds with new foam surrounds, but you'd probably have to incorrectly glue them to the front, since I'm sure it wouldn't be pretty getting the accordian surrounds off. That would still probably be better than the way they are now.

John

[baldrick]

- Here's a pic that shows a 2235H with it's foam edge .

I understand, and that is also how I thought it should look like and the reason why I all started to ask questions with the woofers!


One woofer looks like the cloth is glued to the front of the speaker also. They sure are aftermarket
Do any of them have foam surrounds.:(

Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by the "cloth is glued to the front of the speaker". All 4 woofers looks identical and noone have foam surrounds. In fact all 4 woofers looks more or less like new so I guess that the woofers have been reconed with 2225H kit and not only changed foam/surroundings as I originally was told.

What and how big is the difference between 2225H, 2234H and 2235H, is it only the surrounding? And what would my best option be, recone all 4 woofers or could i change only the surroundings?

[Earl K]

I have a Fluke I think it's pretty accurate, tell me what to do and I'll see what I can find .

Sorry, false hope ! I was speculating that there might be a noticable DCR difference between the voice coil of the 2225 and the 2224/5 . But there isn't / so a person can't tell what is what by just reading the DCR .


I'm willing to bet that the cones may be 2235, but when the foam went, they put the accordian surrounds on. That's too bad.

- The only way to actually know this ( apart from removing the whole cone-kit and measuring the voice-coils winding depth ) is to measure some lectrical parameters from these voice-coils . The 2225H with the shorter coil has an inductance of 1.1 mH while the longer coiled 2234/5H has an inductance of 1.2 mH. How to measure inductance ? You'll need to buy Woofer Tester Pro or some software package that can measure TS parameters ( or maybe pay someone who has the proper equipment to do the measuring ) .


What and how big is the difference between 2225H, 2234H and 2235H, is it only the surrounding? And what would my best option be, recone all 4 woofers or could i change only the surroundings?

- You are missing about 1 octave of low bass response by using woofers that have extra "stiff" surrounds. The Fs ( free air resonance ) of the 2234H is @ 24 hz versus the 40 hz of the 2225H woofer .

- I would be asking for some money back from the seller .

- If these cone-kits are actually JBL 2225H , there should be some markings written on the back of the paper cone ( usually in grease-pencil ) . Take a look at all your woofers to see ( use a flash-light ) if you can find some identifying marks .

:)

[baldrick]

Thanks for your good answers Earl :applaud:

I'm going to talk to the seller and ask him onec more about the "recone/refoam" or whatever has been done. For what he has told me, the only thing that is not origianl on my speakers is that hed had the "suspension/surround/foam" changed. Strange, strange, strange....

I'll test some more tomorrow and see what I can find out. Of course they really don't sound bad, I just wish/tought that they would be even better :bouncy:

[Earl K]

- Sorry for the gallows humour ;; but ;; are you drinking yet ? :)

- I know if it was me, I'd be looking for a bottle of single-malt scotch to "alter my attitude" .;)

Options :
- 4 new 2234h recones costing approx. 1000.00 USD

- 4 temporary "refoams" ( put in by a professional ) who removes the dust-caps and shims the voice-coils while the new foam surrounds are installed & then allowed to air-dry . New dust-caps would need to be installed. Cost ???? I don't know . Maybe as much as $ $100.00 per woofer to be done right .

:(

[edgewound]

All 4 woofers should say 2234H on the back. The early ones had 2421A compression driver, the later one's had 2426H. The difference between 2234 and 2235: 2234 has no mass ring on top of voice coil former, under the dust dome...otherwise identical parts. Current US recone price for 2234H= $174.00 ea. (C8R2235 minus included mass ring)

[4313B]

I paid $1000 for the speakers and that is chep, but of course if I have to pay the same amount to get them to be what they should, then it's not very cheap anymore....Nope, it isn't cheap anymore, it means you end up paying about what they're worth.

Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you.

I can't help you, otherwise I would. Your location negates any potential cost savings.

[Zilch]

Well, it's not just the surrounds, then.

The woofers are 2235H, not 4435's stock 2234H, assuming they're all the same.

That means that the cones have the mass rings installed, assuming only new (and wrong) surrounds were installed.

The "interim" solution would also require removing the domes to access the mass rings to remove them as well as installing aftermarket foam surrounds and new domes.

The only rational solution would be to recone all four drivers correctly to 2234H specification.

That'd cost $600 or more here in the U.S., depending upon who did it.

$1600 is still a VERY good price for a pair of 4435's, perhaps $1000 less that what they would sell for here.

SO, you're still considerably ahead in the "bargain" department.

How much ahead depends upon the cost of reconing there....

[4313B]

Current price C8R2235 is $156. "Do not use mass ring."

I'd be looking for "compensation."

The only rational solution would be to recone all four drivers correctly to 2234H specification.

That'd cost about $600 here in the U.S.Fuzzy math? You voted for Bush didn't you. :p

Orange County Speaker Repair wants $174.00 each which works out to $696.00 for four.

[toddalin]

Just had a bunch done in Dec. $174 each (+ tax) at Orange County Speaker.

If they could have just done the foams..., $45 each.

[Zilch]

Fuzzy math? You voted for Bush didn't you. :pHeh.

OCS is a "Gourmet" reconer, in my view.

Not everyone charges "scale."

[You'd do 'em for less, I betcha, given the circumstance.... ;) ]

[Titanium Dome]

Don Ramon in LA will do 2234 and 2235 recones for $115. Refoams are $35.

That's a long way from Norway, though.

[mech986]

HI Baldrick,

Looks like time to take stock inventory here. Pull all 4 woofers and lay them down in front of their openings. Disengage the wires and make note of the way they hook up. Check to see exactly what you have there.

If they are all 2235H's, then look for any writing or printed numbers on the backside of the cones. All of the 2235H drivers I have have the number 50320 which I believe is the original cone number.

Others here will have to help us know whether this number is unique to the 2235H. I seem to recall seeing a 2231H recently with the same number and the 2234H would be the same except for the mass ring. So the cone itself may be more generic than I think.

The important thing is to feel the edge of the cone from the back and see if there is old flaking foam surround material there. If there is, then the surrounds may have been replaced with this pleated material. If it's clean, and the cone numbers are different, then the 2235's have been reconed.

Let us know what you find out.

Regards,

Bart

[Mr. Widget]

As has been well pointed out they are way wrong. The fact that they say 2235H tells you that they are not the originals. The original 2234H woofers were replaced with 2235s with the wrong cones... a double error.

The good news is that the 2235 frames cane be redone with 2234H kits. (2235H kit with the mass ring omitted as has been mentioned)
It will cost a fair amount to set these right, but messing around with foam edges etc. seems half assed. I think you should replace all four cones with the proper JBL kits. At least then you will know that you have four brand new woofers that are correct.


Widget

[SUPERBEE]

I NEVER buy anything over $900.00 with out ACTUALLY inspecting said item

$900 is the amount I am willing to lose on any given thing.

[leif]

2235h is not the right woofer for those speakers. it should be 2234h, that has higher sensitivity than the 2235h.
The foam on these speakers you have is not the right ones either, and the seller told me so when I called him. It had been replaced by "something better" he said.
When I refoamed my 2235H I used aftermarket foam bouht from orange county in USA. it works well. But you will have a problem with that on your new speakers. Because it will be hard to remove that surrounding thing on your speakers, and if you still get it done, you are still having wrong woofers... Not good. Not good....

And 2234H is not that easy to find second hand either. They are not used in many speakers...

When that is said: They look great!

Leif

[JuniorJBL]

And 2234H is not that easy to find second hand either. They are not used in many speakers...

When that is said: They look great!

Leif
Only one speaker!

But if you look, it can be made from a 2235 by removing the "mass ring" said above in posts by other members;)

[leif]

Ballderick, If I were you, I would make a phone call or send a mail to Lydrommet in Oslo. They are the ones dealing with JBL pro stuff here in Norway. They will be able to recone your woofers, but it will probably cost you more to do so,than what you have given for the speakers.
I am very sorry to hear this....
I dont see any other options than to recone them.
But if you do that, I bet you will have some very good sounding speakers.

The room look a bit small for those beasts. It dont look easy for you to acess the electronics when they are covered by those two beasts!
What did your wife say about the speakers? I will show mine your pictures later, and I am pretty sure she will be happy that I did not get them :D

Wish you good luck!

[mech986]

As has been well pointed out they are way wrong. The fact that they say 2235H tells you that they are not the originals. The original 2234H woofers were replaced with 2235s with the wrong cones... a double error.

The good news is that the 2235 frames cane be redone with 2234H kits. (2235H kit with the mass ring omitted as has been mentioned)
It will cost a fair amount to set these right, but messing around with foam edges etc. seems half assed. I think you should replace all four cones with the proper JBL kits. At least then you will know that you have four brand new woofers that are correct.


Widget

Hi Widget,

Absolutely agree that the wrong woofers are in there. (Saw what edgewound posted and double checked the JBL Pro System list for my educational review). What I was trying to do was establish what he really has there. I agree also that the best alternative is to do the full recone - that will likely run about $6-800 or so total with Euro time and money factored in.

If he really had 2235 cones with the wrong surrounds, the HA possibility is resurround on the back side with the correct foam and remove the mass rings and install new center cones. That would likely cost about $80 per or about $350 for the set. (This assumes the mass ring can be removed without damage - I seem to recall one of our recone specialists saying it might be difficult if not impossible without damage - sort of a one way addition of mass).

Just trying to understand the potential costs and provide the cost options if he didn't want to spend the whole enchilada if it was possible.

The other thing, and maybe its some interest on my part, is if the cone really is a 2235 cone with the wrong surrounds (given that the surrounds are on the front which they shouldn't be if they had a JBL 2225 recone), then when they are to be reconed, I'd ask if the original 2235 cone/spider/vc/surround assembly could be removed as intact as possible. GordonW had mentioned in the past that cones like this could still be used if they are essentially still good. Strip the pleated surrounds off and refoam them correctly and they could help another frame sing again.

Then Baldrick could maybe get something back by selling the cones to offset his costs, irrespective of what the seller may do for him.

Cheap? I did say in a previous thread that I'm a cheap sumbitch :D and being Chinese, I hate to throw anything that's still good (or otherwise) away. And yes, I've got two 2231 frames that I'd love to try to get going again with those cones.

Of course, I should bite the bullet and just recone these too. But considering what I've spent on JBL stuff in the last year, well, tax time is coming and I've got an 18 year old heading off to a private school. :banghead:

Just exploring the options, and if I'm way off base, let me know. Baldrick, let us know what you might be thinking for your plans. Would also be a good idea to check the compression drivers to see what you have and look at the crossovers too - you don't know what else the previous owners might have done to make them "something better".

Best regards,

Bart

[sajt]

If i am you::banghead:
i have leaved in this shape, and listen the new TOYS.
Finally these are used speakers, in a godd condition, you had waited for them.
Be happy with the new babies.:applaud:
ps: for the small room you need another JBLs, i think so:barf:

[baldrick]

A litle update on this one... I've checked all woofers now and in fact only the first one was 2235, the others were 2234.

On the backside of the 2235 it's written by pen "2235" and also machinetyped another place the number Bart was referring to "50320".

On the backside of the 2234 it's written by pen "2234" and also machinetyped the number 61561. Could anyone confirm that this is the correct number for the 2234 cone?

The foam have been replaced it's easy to see from the backside. So at the moment I'm pretty sure the 3 of the woofers are correct with only wrong foam. And I guess some years ago one woofer have been replaced with the wrong driver, the 2235. The surround is all the same on all 4 woofers.

[Earl K]

Hi balrick


The foam have been replaced it's easy to see from the backside. So at the moment I'm pretty sure the 3 of the woofers are correct with only wrong foam. And I guess some years ago one woofer have been replaced with the wrong driver, the 2235. The surround is all the same on all 4 woofers.

- It's good news that you can see that the foam was replaced with a pleated linen surround. That means to me, that the voice-coils are the correct type .

- The woofer marked 2235 may in fact be a 2235h frame with a 2234H cone kit installed into it. Either way ( assuming this woofer also indicates it once had a foam surround ), the voice coil is the correct winding depth . If there is further reason to suspect that the woofer marked 2235H has the mass ring installed , well, the mass ring may be able to be taken out .

- Personally, I wouldn't focus ( or fixate ) too much on the stock numbers printed on back of the paper cones / unless there is now some new reason to suspect that non-JBL recone parts have been used to construct a kit. If in fact you see that all four woofers once had foam surrounds / that is a strong indication that all four coils & cones are the original JBL parts that needed refoaming at one time .

- I've already laid out the two options that I see you have ( based on having the correct voice-coils installed ). Available fianances will to some degree dictate which route you take.
(a) Reconing
(b) Refoaming ( consider this to be a temporary fix ) This option will require that a professional reconer cut out the currently installed pleated-linen surround.

- regards :)

[toddalin]

There may be a cheaper alternative to having those woofers reconed.

I was pretty much faced with this same situation. I had four good 130s that I wanted to replace with 2235s. I could have had the woofers reconed at a cost of $174 each (+ tax), but found a cheaper way.

For simplicity say, a recone is $200 each. To have your four woofers reconed then costs you $800.

While the woofers work fine as is, they are not what you want. Instead of reconing them, sell them. Say you get $100 each or $400 for the set.

Now go on epay (or elswhere) and buy four baskets at about $50 each or $200. There is a wide assortment of baskets that can all be reconed as 2234s. So you're $200 ahead. Now have the baskets reconed at a cost of $800 and your outlay is only $600. You just saved $200!

[4313B]

How would he get $100 each for four effed up woofers?

They're effed up, they're cores, they're worth $50 each.

[toddalin]

Your opinion!

They are only effed up to someone who wants true 2235s. If someone was looking for a nice set of speakers for their guitar/bass/keyboard, there is no reason that these couldn't be used as is. They could certainly be sold off as 2205 (or whatever # it is) recones.



How would he get $100 each for four effed up woofers?

They're effed up, they're cores, they're worth $50 each.

[norealtalent]

[quote=Giskard]How would he get $100 each for four effed up woofers?...

quote]

ebay, where else?
http://cgi.ebay.com/pair-original-JBL-2420-diaphragms-aluminium-alloy-1-75_W0QQitemZ5863811936QQcategoryZ73372QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem :D

[4313B]

Your opinion!

They are only effed up to someone who wants true 2235s. If someone was looking for a nice set of speakers for their guitar/bass/keyboard, there is no reason that these couldn't be used as is. They could certainly be sold off as 2205 (or whatever # it is) recones.Oh boy... :no:

[baldrick]

I don't think there are any chance I will use the same amount of money for a recone of all four woofers that I already spent of the speakers. I will either keep them as them are, get a new foam or just sell them :)

BTW: I've done some more listening to the speakers today and in fact the bass don't play that bad at all anymore. They play TOTALY different than my other speaker but perhaps that's how they are supposed to play? They are much more accurate and "linnear" than my TIs, so maybe it's just my taste that likes the TI more than the 4435?

Have anyone in fact tried the "combo" I'm running, 2234/2235 with the pleated-linen surround? I have the same surround on my JBL GTI woofers and they sound great as well but of course, they came original with this surround :)

Can it really be so that the surround alone will make the woofers sound that much worse? Before I spend a few hundred dollars on refoaming all woofers it would be nice to be 100% certain that it will indeed make the woofers way better than they are today!

Thanks again for all help :applaud:

BTW: The room isn't that small as it could look like in the pictures (I guess aprox 240 sq.ft), and of course setup as shown on the pictures was just to show the speakers, and not how they are going to be placed finally :) My wife just laughed when she saw them and was VERY glad they are not placed in the living room. But then again, I bet they would sound much better in the livingroom since it's twice as big and also twice the ceeling :bouncy:

[4313B]

Well gee that's great. I'm glad it worked out for you.

All that "special" engineering garbage that goes into the JBL designs is just a waste of time on their part. They could basically use anything, just like other loudspeaker companies, and yet for some reason they don't.

I wonder why. :hmm:

Anyway, I'm glad you've rectified this in your mind. We've had a breakthrough today and that's great. :)

Enjoy! :yes:

[Mr. Widget]

Giskard,

I rather expect your sarcasm is lost on at least some of our friends who don't share our American sensibilities or nuanced tone.

You might want to clarify you last post.;)

I agree with your premise. If these were my speakers I'd think of them as the $5K or so speakers that they are and not as the $1K bargain that this particular pair seemed to be and fix them right.


Widget

[4313B]

You might want to clarify you last post.;)Umm, let me see... I don't know... How about do it right or buy a different loudspeaker brand? :dont-know

Don't dump improperly "repaired" drivers on unsuspecting people? :dont-know

Believe me, if he was anywhere near me I'd fix his problem. Actually, I recently finished two 4430's and four 4435's. They were done right... and that isn't an opinion. :D

[Earl K]

Have anyone in fact tried the "combo" I'm running, 2234/2235 with the pleated-linen surround? I have the same surround on my JBL GTI woofers and they sound great as well but of course, they came original with this surround

- I doubt if anyone here has actually heard that exact hybrid setup / but / some of us here do have a few decades of experience in being around this particular family of JBL 15" woofers .

- At the very least, you should get someone ( professional ) to measure the Fs of all these hybrid woofers. If the Fs numbers are above 28 hz then you are deluding yourself in thinking the bass you have is sufficient ( IMHO ) . If the woofers' Fs measures below 28 hz / then it's a far greyer area of subjective opinion that you find yourself in .


Can it really be so that the surround alone will make the woofers sound that much worse? Before I spend a few hundred dollars on refoaming all woofers it would be nice to be 100% certain that it will indeed make the woofers way better than they are today!

- Linen surrounds aren't as linear as the foam half-roll . This leads to a higher distortion spec. . Linen surrounds are also stiffer / this steals away possible low frequency response . If the last reconer had installed TAD-like triple pleated linen surrounds / those speakers might have achievd an Fs of 25 hz. I doubt those speakers have that as an Fs . ( Fs = "free air resonance" )

- I wouldn't hesitate much to get them refoamed ( by a professional who uses shims ) with RickCobbs' foam kits ( search thr site for his contact info / he's in florida . See if he will sell/ship you 4 new JBL "like" dust-caps. New foam will put these woofers back closer to the way they are meant to sound .


:)

ps ; I'm only going on about "refoam" since you just stated that reconing is right now out of the picture .

[baldrick]

Well gee that's great. I'm glad it worked out for you.

All that "special" engineering garbage that goes into the JBL designs is just a waste of time on their part. They could basically use anything, just like other loudspeaker companies, and yet for some reason they don't.

I wonder why. :hmm:

Anyway, I'm glad you've rectified this in your mind. We've had a breakthrough today and that's great. :)

Enjoy! :yes:

Thanks a lot for your useful contribution now also in this thread, I don't know what we would have done without your help :blah: :blah: I guess it's answers like this that really makes new people just wanna signup for this forum :bouncy: I'm new to this forum and is already soooo glad youre here to help ;)

I just wanted to know whether someone in fact have tried useing the combo I have and how big difference it is between the original foam and mine. "Hopefully" a 2234 with org foam sound way better than mine does, but if it shouldn't I don't wanna pay several hundred dollars :)

[JuniorJBL]

I am with Earl, Giskard and Mr. Widget.

These are some very nice speakers and for the $1000 you spent you SHOULD put them as close to factory as possible. And do it as money permits. Yes start with refoams. :yes:

As they say "giterdone";)

[4313B]

Thanks a lot for your useful contribution now also in this thread, I don't know what we would have done without your help :blah: :blah: I guess it's answers like this that really makes new people just wanna signup for this forum :bouncy: I'm new to this forum and is already soooo glad youre here to help ;)

I just wanted to know whether someone in fact have tried useing the combo I have and how big difference it is between the original foam and mine. "Hopefully" a 2234 with org foam sound way better than mine does, but if it shouldn't I don't wanna pay several hundred dollars :)You just answered yourself dude. Read your post over again.

Without my help you'd simply decide JBL made a mistake in using foam surrounds instead of cloth surrounds in the 4430 and 4435.

Anyway, I'm done here.

[baldrick]

OK, OK, OK I get the picture, I really have to refoam my woofers :D

Can't find the page to Rich Cobb, could anyone post the link? Is his kits better/same as those from Orange County? I was really surprised to see the price of only $30 for a "re-edge/foam" kit from Orange County, and of course if that's what it takes, I'll buy it!

[Zilch]

I don't think there are any chance I will use the same amount of money for a recone of all four woofers that I already spent of the speakers. I will either keep them as them are, get a new foam or just sell them :)Suppose you had paid $10 for them. Would $10 be the max additional you'd consider investing to make them "right?"

I'm with Widget on this. They are more like $5K, world-class large-format monitors, one of JBL's best designs. You're confusing cost and value here. Even if you spent $1000 more on them, you'd still have acquired a "bargain."

Of COURSE they're going to be better with the proper surrounds. They're messed up right now, is what.... :banghead:

********

I think John's question relates to the fact that cash transfers between bank accounts seem much more commonly used as a payment option in Europe than in the U.S.. We just don't do it here between individuals....

[Mr. Widget]

OK, OK, OK I get the picture, I really have to refoam my woofers :D

Can't find the page to Rich Cobb, could anyone post the link? Is his kits better/same as those from Orange County? I was really surprised to see the price of only $30 for a "re-edge/foam" kit from Orange County, and of course if that's what it takes, I'll buy it!You might consider following Bo's wonderful step by step...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=469

At least while you are saving up for a proper recone. Remember with new recone kits you are getting fresh spiders and coils that have never scraped the gap.

Widget

[Earl K]

Can't find the page to Rich Cobb,

CLICK HERE ! (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94508&postcount=8) ( Please learn to use the onsite search engine ) :p

PS : Mr. Widgets' points ??? ( the bigger woofers are harder to refoam correctly )
The rest ? - What he said !

[leif]

I followed Bobs step by step when I refoamed my 2235H. It was easy, but some of the reasons it was that easy, was that the old foam was so extremely rotten that it fell of by only rubbing a finger gently on it.

Wish you good luck!

[Guido]

OK, OK, OK I get the picture, I really have to refoam my woofers :D

Thank god this is cleared now :p

Ricks surrounds are very good. Good surrounds are available here in Europe too. I PM'd you with offering help. What more can I do?

[baldrick]

Suppose you had paid $10 for them. Would $10 be the max additional you'd consider investing to make them "right?"

I think you got it all wrong there :) The thing is that if I need to pay another $1000 to get the speakers to sound what they should, they are going to be too expensive for me at the moment! (after all I live in taxhell (Noway) and I just bought a new house :p ) If I found a pair of mint 4435 for $2000 I wouldn't buy them, simply because they then would be to expensive now. But if a $100 refoam could fixem up, of course than there is no problems trying that!

Thanks for the link Widget, and Earl, I found the mailadresse myself, it was the website I couldn't find ;) Ooooops Guido, I have totaly forgotten to read your PM, I'll look into it rigth away :o: Infact Rolf had already tiped me about you, but I totally forgot.

[toddalin]

Umm, let me see... I don't know... How about do it right or buy a different loudspeaker brand? :dont-know

Don't dump improperly "repaired" drivers on unsuspecting people? :dont-know

Believe me, if he was anywhere near me I'd fix his problem. Actually, I recently finished two 4430's and four 4435's. They were done right... and that isn't an opinion. :D

Sorry, I didn't mean to step on your toes.

No one stated that he shouldn't do it right nor was it stated that they should be "dumped on unsuspecting people. I only stated that they are not garbage and assuming that they still play fine, which they seem to, have value in them, just not in this his application as they are.

So what's the problem if he sells these representing them as what they are, and pockets a few $$$ towards the right ones? This seems to be the way he is leaning anyway.

If the baskets say 2235 and a 2234 is called for, maybe he could even find 2234 baskets which would be to his benefit from a collector's point. I've seen them on epay.

But we all know that performance-wise, the difference between a 2205, 2225, 2231, 2234, and 2235 is the cone (and a foilcal on the back). So, if he couldn't find 2234s, he could find and use baskets for any of the above and be $$$ ahead. (And we know that the 2234/2235 cone also fits a whole bunch of others that could be used.)

[speakerdave]

Hi, Baldrick,

I think you should restore the speakers to original specification. You can certainly use them the way they are until you feel comfortable spending the additional money, but no one will be able to evaluate what you are hearing because no one knows exactly what you have.

Before you buy foam kits, I would suggest you very carefully cut the dome out of a couple to see if the mass ring is there. If the mass ring is there you would have wasted money on the foams. Those 2235 frames may contain original cones that needed refoaming and someone has tried to use them in these 4435's with the stiffer surrounds to balance out the mass ring. If so you have an unpredictable hybrid. If the mass rings are there, and you want to restore the speakers to original specification, you will probably need to recone because I understand the mass rings, which are glued in place, are difficult to remove without wrecking the voice coil former.

Bargain hunting for speakers can be a tricky deal. If the speakers turn out to need further investment to be what they are supposed to be, you have to be able let go of the bargain idea. To do that you need to be glad you have the speakers at all. The truth is that even with an additional investment of $1500 you still will have not paid more than the speakers are worth. Do you mean to say you don't want them unless they are a bargain?

JBL Pro still lists the 2234 in stock for about $335 each. If I had your 4435's I would buy four new 2234H's. Then I would have a great pair of speakers with all original components that would appreciate in value while they are being enjoyed by their owner.

David

[baldrick]

Hi David!

As I wrote futher up (maybe while you were writing) why I can't recone or buy a new set of woofers at the moment, is the money... We've just bouth a new (too expensive) house, we'll get baby no 2 (and now I'm talking about the kind of baby that talkes and walks :D ) in 2-3 weeks so I really can't afford a $1000-1500 at the moment. So yes, you could say that I only would have bought this pair when it was a bargain. I was in fact looking for a pair of 250TI when I found these, so it was just a coincidence.

I don't know if you've read the whole thread (starting to get long..) but only one woofer (including the cone) is 2235, the other three are 2234. How can I tell wheter the the mass ring still are there on the 2235 if I cut the dome? Do you have pictures of it?

[speakerdave]

As I wrote futher up (maybe while you were writing) why I can't recone or buy a new set of woofers at the moment, is the money... We've just bouth a new (too expensive) house, we'll get baby no 2 (and now I'm talking about the kind of baby that talkes and walks :D ) in 2-3 weeks so I really can't afford a $1000-1500 at the moment.

This is the best part of the story. You are doing exactly what I was doing twenty-five years ago. I found myself putting audio on the back burner for a couple of decades while I hung out with the kids. They benefit greatly from caring, undistracted attention, especially in the early years, and as they are growing up, a variety of experiences (field trips, vacations, concerts, travel, etc) are very important to their development. Before I started having my own kids I learned from my friends' children that delicate collectables and children don't mix very will, and children are inherently far more important. So I got rid of my collectable stuff and kept a usable setup for listening to music. Then I spent many years with the kids, dogs, cats, rabbits, fish, guinea pigs, Little League, soccer, basketball, camping trips, concerts, museums, reading etc etc. As the kids got older and were more interested in being with their friends, I went back to my hobbies.


So yes, you could say that I only would have bought this pair when it was a bargain. I was in fact looking for a pair of 250TI when I found these, so it was just a coincidence.


This explains the depth of your dilemma. You never really wanted them in the first place. Given this, and the above parenting situation, I think you should consider passing them along. Even using full disclosure I don't think you should have any trouble getting your money out of them.


I don't know if you've read the whole thread (starting to get long..) but only one woofer (including the cone) is 2235, the other three are 2234. How can I tell wheter the the mass ring still are there on the 2235 if I cut the dome? Do you have pictures of it?

Yes, I had forgotten that part. That makes it far more likely the mass rings are not there. It may even be the case that when the speakers were made they ran short one 2234 frame and used a 2235 (with correct cone) to complete the set. I'm not a reconer guy, but I've read on this forum that the mass ring is glued to the front of the coil former. It looks a little like a piston ring and will be right there under your nose with the dome removed. I would have a replacement dome on hand before doing this unless you are prepared to not use the speaker until final resolution.

When I got my 4333A's I couldn't wait until the refoaming was done before I listened to them, so I popped in a pair of 2225s temporarily. I knew what I was listening to was not correct, but I still enjoyed them. And later when the refoaming was done and the 2231's were back in, I missed the improved upper bass and lower midrange that I got with the 2225's. So I don't think you should be embarassed about enjoying these speakers the way they are in the mean time.

David

[Earl K]

Nice Post Dave !

- I especially liked the parts about "not being embarassed about liking what you like" and the priority of family .:D

:)

ps : Considering what you just said about missing the 2225s midbass & upper midrange performance/ you might consider getting ME150H woofs or ( from what I hear ) the affordable 1500Fe woofer. The ME150h is voiced somewhere between the 2225 and a 2235 ( but with the advantage of aquaplas ) . Theres' been many a time in listening sessions where I think " why do these things sound like twin 8s' or 10s' . ( Very articulate bass drivers / not a VLF driver by any stretch of the imagination )

[Izzy Weird]

Wow, I’m envious.

Looks to me like you got a very good deal, Baldrick. If someone offered me two 4435 monitors, even with all four cones torn right out of the baskets, I’d probably buy them in a heartbeat. Recone or refoam them as your budget permits, either way you have some very nice speakers.

Side question: I see two controls on each cabinet, normally a two-way system would have only one. Anyone know what the second control is for? I checked the LH library but couldn't find anything to explain this.

http://IzzyWeird.com/images/eyes1.jpg
Izzy

[grumpy]

passive mid and high EQ.

[Zilch]

Side question: I see two controls on each cabinet, normally a two-way system would have only one. Anyone know what the second control is for? I checked the LH library but couldn't find anything to explain this?http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=7852

[John]

I have to agree that I would have bought them as well for $1000 even knowing they need 4 recones.:bouncy: As long as everything else was shipshape:D

[baldrick]

I've now ordered new foams from Guido so I'm really looking forward to see what they can do for my speakers :spin:

[toddalin]

When I got my 4333A's I couldn't wait until the refoaming was done before I listened to them, so I popped in a pair of 2225s temporarily. I knew what I was listening to was not correct, but I still enjoyed them. And later when the refoaming was done and the 2231's were back in, I missed the improved upper bass and lower midrange that I got with the 2225's. So I don't think you should be embarassed about enjoying these speakers the way they are in the mean time.

David

When I replaced the 130As in my L200 cabinets with 2235s I also missed the "improved upper bass and lower midrange that I got with the 130As.:(

[Earl K]

I've now ordered new foams from Guido so I'm really looking forward to see what they can do for my speakers

- That Guidos' a good man to have on your side of the big trench ! :applaud: :p

[4313B]

- That Guidos' a good man to have on your side of the big trench ! :applaud: :pAbsolutely! :cheers:

[Guido]

HEE don't embarrass me :o:

This is what this forum's about, isn't it? We learn from each other and we help our younger (maybe better "newer" ;) ) members when they need help.

Damned, my 2234, 2426, 2344, biased networks and since today even 2435HPL on PH316 or PT Waveguides sitting and sitting on the shelf waiting for the carpenter to finish those 4435 cabinets. BRING ON THOSE CABS!!

Meanwhile I should help fixing Baldrick's ones :yes:

[baldrick]

Maybe a silly question, but is there any use for a LF EQ on the 4435? I've heard many good things about the quite cheap Behringer 1124 Feedback Destroyer.

I've dismounted all woofer today to see if there could be any phase problems, but couldn't see (or hear) any errors. But when I was doing this, I got an idea that I guess isn't new but anyway. Would it be a good idea of running the -> 100 hz woofers on a seperate amps with external x-over or is this no good?

Is there any recomended placement for these speakers? I mean, how far from each other, how far from the back/side walls and so on... Or isn't there any correct answer to this, only way to find out is trials and errors?

And finally, what kind of electronics/amps do you guys use/recomend for these speakers? I know what I have today is "wrong" (HK surround/preamp and Carver Pro poweramp) so I'm planning to replace them when I can afford so it would be nice to get some advices! I know many Klipch users use tubes for their horns, but have almost never heard the same about JBL, so I guess that is not a good solution? Have anyone been useing Electrocompaniet? I really like them on TIs but again, I've never heard any other 4435 so it's hard to know if they could be a good choise for these.

[Guido]

Maybe a silly question, but is there any use for a LF EQ on the 4435?

WHAT?? Have you ever heard a real 4435? You do not need such things as LF EQ. NoNoNo :coolness:





Would it be a good idea of running the -> 100 hz woofers on a seperate amps with external x-over or is this no good?

see
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95722&postcount=2

[baldrick]

WHAT?? Have you ever heard a real 4435? You do not need such things as LF EQ. NoNoNo :coolness:


No, that's one of my problems, I've NEVER heard any 4435 other than mines ;)

[speakerdave]

I know many Klipch users use tubes for their horns, but have almost never heard the same about JBL, so I guess that is not a good solution?
I think there are a number of Forum members who are using tubes for their JBL horns, and more doing it all the time. I don't know where they are. Maybe they'll chime in here sometime.

I use tubes full range on my 4333A since most of my listening is at quite moderate volume levels. Unfortunately that means that when I really want to put the power to them I have to hook up other amps. I should have them biamped permanently, but I am making a point right now of keeping the clutter to a minimum, and I don't have enough cabinet in that listening room for all the multiple boxes and wires. Besides, I think simpler is better.

Good luck with the foams. The first ones I ever did were my 2231's, and they turned out just fine.

David

[baldrick]

At the moment I'm sitting here with a big smile on my face :) Today at work I got an idea, so when I got home, I therw a lot of pillows on my floor. The idea behind this was to see wheter this would help with my acoustic problems in the room, and belive me it did!!! Suddenly I got bass from the speakers :) You won't belive the difference it did... It's absolutely not perfect but things seems A LOT brighter at the moment :bouncy:

I don't know what to do permanently with the problem anyone have some ideas how to help with the accoustic and still maintain a decent look on the room? Could "digital roomcorection" be a way out of this, or do they only help with other problems?

[leif]

I have also had problems with reflections with my 4430. It is of course the room, with oak floor without carpet, and large naked walls that make the reflections. But some people say that the 4430 and 4435 is difficult with reflections. Because the horns and the high crossover from the 15 incher to the horn.
I have also tried to put blankets and pillows on the floors, and it help to minimise reflections, but it does not give more bass here. But I have enough like it is...

[Zilch]

Toe them in, maybe 15° to 30°.

From the look of it, the floor and ceiling would appear to be the major problem, tho.

Where do you listen from in that room?

[leif]

I listen from the sofa where the picture is taken. Or I pull the brown chair out on the foor (its on wheels).
Sometimes I also pull the speakers out and further away from the walls. nd angle them. But for everyday living, it does not work that well with the speakers far out in the room. I have a 3 year old daughter that runs around, and I am afraid she will stuble in the cables then....
The amp is placed a meter to left from where I stand taking the picture. Cables goes under the floor (in the cieling of the basement living room) and up behind the speakers. And the sub is also placed to the left of where the picture is taken.

[leif]

here is a picture taken from the brown sofa next to the speakers. Showing the place where I sit and listen. And as you see, the sub on the left side with an amp on top. and also one amp in a cupboard in the corner.

[leif]

new try on the pictures:

[baldrick]

Finally I can give you an update on my speakers :bouncy:

This weekend I finally got to refoam the woofers, I was a little bit anxious before I started since I had never done anything like it before but it went very well. After I had glued all foams acording to the manual I let them play at 30hz all night. I was VERY exited to test them next day and what else than WOW can I say ;)

I had NEVER dreamt that the wrong surround could make that big of a difference but it did :applaud: So finally I'm starting to getting satisfied with my 4435 and understand why so many people like them ;)

[northwood]

It's the best simlest dual 15 inch bass and horn speaker

[Guido]

Well done Baldrick! Congratulations!

[jim campbell]

if i may;at 1000 bucks they were much less than others that have recently sold.if they work but you wish to restore them why not use them as is for now while you search for the correct parts.as you find them swap them out and either sell off the unwanted pieces or better yet save them for spares or future projects.i recently heard from remusr regarding his 4435's from arizona and it appears that they are awesome

[baldrick]

Jim: I think everything is as they are supposed to be with the speakers after I've now changed to the correct type of foam.

But i still have problems with the sound in my room :(

This is how I wanted to place things in my room:

Blue = 4435
Brown = sofa

http://avforum.no/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9518

But my problem is that the bassresponse is not very good in the sofa. The best bass is at the end of the room (Red)

If I "rotate the room" it's pretty good bassresponse in the sofa but then I have other problems, among others that the speakers are too close to each other, it's very difficult to furnish the room and since I'm going to use the room also for surround setup it's almost impossible to place the rear speakers when I have it like this:

http://avforum.no/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9520

Do anyone have sugestions what to do? Eithe with the placement of the speakers or other things I can do? Anyone have experinces with basstraps?

[Ian Mackenzie]

Can you sketch a map of your room please.

Sometimes the least likely positions for speakers give the best sound!

These speakers while great for uniform Eq in a studio will make the issue of reflections difficult to deal with. At best you could alay a rug on the floor and attach Sonex panels as Bat wings to tame the lateral 100 x 100 dispursion but it would pobably look silly!

Here is an idea, try the Sonex accoustic panels attached to the sides of the horns, if they help you could construct a grill frame to conceal the accoustic treatement.


Ian

[baldrick]

There should be a sketch of the room if you press the link above but I can attach the same as well: The room is 200-250 sq ft

[Rolf]

There should be a sketch of the room if you press the link above but I can attach the same as well: The room is 200-250 sq ft

Hi baldrick.

My suggestion is that you keep your speakers at the widest wall. On the back/left of your sofa there seems to be a window. Cover up the window with heavy drapes, and where the window ends (and the short wall is) put up a wall of something. It can be some closet doors, or just a wall with a door in it. Then put some small shelves on it (a kind of a furniture section) to remove unwanted reflections. You can try this by using any kind of loose sections from an office witch you probably can borrow from someone. And yes, it might work wit some of those elements used to separate people in a large office landscape. The "small" room in the back can be used for a bed, a normal closet, or what ever you can think of.

[remusr]

If you tend to be the main listener and use the easychair to listen, what about...

1 - with 4435's on top wall, placing chair by the lower edge of the window with the 4435's at the top and the couches on the mid-right and bottom walls as a sitdown conversation pit that the chair can be rotated into.

2 - with 4435's on right wall, place chair in mid-window and couches on top wall and bottom wall; separates couches but may be ok for multiple activities in same room or standup entertaining.

Both of these allow multiple uses for the chair as a listening station and as a reading or looking-out-the-window spot. Locate the lamp by the chair. And lots of open floor area for the youngun to play!

PS - where's the TV?

[baldrick]

Thanx for the idea Rolf, maybe that's worth trying! Yesterday I tried almost any possible solutions but I can't find any that sounds very good. Mance places: when I stand up the bass is very good, but when I sit down in the sofa 80% of the bass disappears :(

I have two other rooms that also could be worth trying, but I guess only one of them are real alternative. The room called "Boder" on the sketch is maybe easier to get better sound in? If the speakers were a bit smaller it would also be much easier to try them in other rooms :) It's hard to move them from room to room by myself ;)

Remusr: I will be useing a 3+2 sofa and the "TV" is a 100" screen, and also I will need to find a place for the surround speakers which is not that small either (Cerwin Vega 1215 cabinets with 120TI and 1200GTI, aprox 70 kg each..)

[baldrick]

BTW Remusr: The room will be dedicated for HiFi/surround so I don't have to think that much about other use of it, luckily we've bought a big house with many rooms, so the kids don't have to play in this room :)

[remusr]

Baldrick - with that huge a house you gotta find a bigger room for the 4435's - and your not-so-small 70kg satellite speakers and 100" TV! I can't imagine moving those hulks around, must be using a dolly. Or swap your 4435's for Leif's 4430's?
You might find the attached Excel spreadsheet for room modes calculation useful in figuring where & why you are getting bass cancellation nodes and how to move things or you to fix it. It only works in rectangular rooms, unfortunately. Note - it has a doc extension needed to be able to attach, so copy it and rename the extension back to xls to boot it up.
- Roy

[baldrick]

Unfortunately my wife won't have the 4435 in the living room which is much bigger room, but in fact I understand that she wont since the 4435 are HUGE and honestly not that pretty :)

But anyway I thought I should be able to get decent sound from a room of those sizes as well!?! I've always been able to get things to work before, and the 4435 shouldn't be that different from other speakers. I'll see if I can find a "room seperator" like Rolf was talking about and/or try the other room which has less angels and also is a bit bigger. The problem is that it's kinda filled up with boxes at the moment :banghead:

[Rolf]

Or swap your 4435's for Leif's 4430's?


What are you??? Crazy??? :blink:

[Rolf]

Unfortunately my wife won't have the 4435 in the living room which is much bigger room, but in fact I understand that she wont since the 4435 are HUGE and honestly not that pretty :)


They are pretty! They look exactly what they are. 4435!

You have to work with your wife man... Do you think the 4343 without the front looks more pretty? No. (I guess) My wife if perfectly happy to have them in our living room, but of course she also love the sound. Maybe I am blessed with a wife like her.



and the 4435 shouldn't be that different from other speakers.



Yes they are. You got a high-end studio monitor, and these are the worst to figure out how to make them play good.




I'll see if I can find a "room seperator" like Rolf was talking about and/or try the other room which has less angels and also is a bit bigger. The problem is that it's kinda filled up with boxes at the moment :banghead:

Do that, and maybe you get lucky. Even if the room looks "perfect" you still have to find the place, angle, height and so on to make them play their best. Ask Ian. He knows a lot more than I. He was the one that made my speakers improve 110%.

[leif]

Happy to hear that you have a very good result after you changed foam.
But why not change wife at the same time. Find one that is like mine or Rolfs wife. That accept big speakers in the living room. Those kind of wifes are a rare species, but you find them if you search long enough :applaud:

[baldrick]

Hehe, I don't think that is going to happen :D As I wrote, I agree with her that the 4435 is NOT very pretty, so I guess they stay downstairs... (yeah I know many of you, in fact maybe most of you disagree with my oppinion of the look of the 4435, but who cares, it's the sound that counts for me)

I guess I have to wait until I get a pair of black 250TIs as well before I can something like this in the livingroom again ;) In the previous house I had the CV/JBL hybrid (which I'm going to use as surround speakers now) in the living room, but compared to the 4435 they are pretty good looking :bouncy:

[B&KMan]

I have also had problems with reflections with my 4430. It is of course the room, with oak floor without carpet, and large naked walls that make the reflections. But some people say that the 4430 and 4435 is difficult with reflections. Because the horns and the high crossover from the 15 incher to the horn.
I have also tried to put blankets and pillows on the floors, and it help to minimise reflections, but it does not give more bass here. But I have enough like it is...

Hello Leif, (and baldrick )

You have a beautiful piece and excellent system. Your problem is integration acoustic rule in your set-up. The speaker on the floor create more pressure in bass (6 dB arroud join of 2 surfaces and 12 dB arround 3 surfaces. So if you pull up your speaker your probaly natural degreaser bass and if you place in good height , the bass is snap better tight and fast...
the tuning is direct proportionnal to distance of the walls and floor.
the toe in is only for medium-high freq (flutter effect ex) and do not affect the bass directly.

2-- your speaker is relatively close to sidewall so be shure the tune-up distance for snap bass. (select drum sing and play, play and play again on little displacement at each time... probably your found where the phase interaction is best... and less fuzzy or "over" natural amplifie by room.

be shure your ear position is on regards of recommendation of JBL.

I remark your horn is inside position. it is better than outside ?? (flip your right and left speaker ( less medium response but extend image and high freq.)

Be shure never your put the electronic on the sub or your induce a terrible TDH in your electronic...


In general , I have many experience who guys is push hight to much because the bass is bad tuning, many fuzz or over bloom bass create a non-equilibrium spectrum response. so guys push high driver for equilibrium. but this state create double non natural response. You try to attenuate by carpet or other goddy padding.

finally you patch the echo and in reality the problem is the bad counter reaction of phase reflexion.


put carpet and any absorbe material only if your echo is to long or hard


Of course my explanation is purely hypothesys. (I'm no ear and no mesures your parameter.)
more treatment expose a complexe analyse of your freq responses, echo.flutter, structural distribution and absortion building.

I hope this is help you.

p.s. make your idea in your mind: this speaker is monitor is tuned in consequently. look the L300 residential version, all driver is tilted 10 degree to up for broken the standing wave and for better coherence. Maybe if your tilt your speakers you realise a couple of surprise...

p.s. the material for tilt speaker is hard and strong as possible for not create a damping in transient response.

brick , very hard wood, steel, etc.

:CHEERS:

[leif]

Thanks a lot for all those suggestions. I will for sure follow your advices as well as I can. I will swap the speakers, and will change the location of the power amplifier. I would love to lift the speakers some few inches, but are not sure how I should get it done. I guess I have to think a little about how to do it, and I am sure I will come up with something.
Thanks again!

Leif

[B&KMan]

I would love to lift the speakers some few inches, but are not sure how I should get it done.
Leif


the intensity Power is drop of 3 db by double extension space. !!

THIS is a pysical law ... try !!

(and I'm not touch the point where the level of power vibration your speaker is put in the floor and create and extension vibration membrane whith your floor )

put 2 bricks on the floor at front speaker and one in back...

for protect your floor on the test time; do not put lint on the floor : put papernews !! or thin foil steel...

REMEMBER, this is a puzzle and your problem is not remediate by only one action...

only mesures give a REAL evaluation of manys acoustical parameters

the precision instruments give to found the nature and the level of effects and permit to apply just right action to cancel problem without create another problem.

So I'm not waranty the result but I'M waranty the principle is according to physical laws ;)

good luck:

p.s.
do not hesitate to write on paper your appreciation after each modification.

In this it, you help yourselft to isolate factors who influence the sound reproduction in your room.

:cheers:

[baldrick]

Thanx a lot for your advice B&K :applaud: I will sure try to lift my speakers a bit and see if it can help, I've tried almost anything else!

I've also tried the speakers in the other room next door, but unfortunately... almost the same the result even though the room has a more normal design. Another thing both rooms have in common is that when I'm very close (i.e. 50 cm) to the speakers (or behind the speakers) there's lots of beautiful bass, but not in the rest of the room.

The floor in my basement is concrete with only a couple of mm (plast) flooring, could this be an issue?

[leif]

Balderick, there is a pair of Ti250 limited edition on finn.no now.....

[baldrick]

I know, I talked to the seller last week :) But they are unforunately too expensive, he wouldn't consider selling them under 20' NOK and I'm afraid that's too expensive at the moment... at least I would need to sell the 4435 and as long as I can't get any speaker to work perfect in my room, I don't know what to do at the moment

[B&KMan]

The floor in my basement is concrete with only a couple of mm (plast) flooring, could this be an issue?

Hello, please push more details explanation if you wish help...

p.s. your speakers is a BIG BIG BIG speaker...

the integration in room is really triky.

do you have any instrument mesure ?? sound level meter, mic , any gadget ???

Normally the concrete floor is excellent to keep bass inside room :D

the power pressure is higher :applaud:

it is absolule critical you pull out on the corner the speaker or any wall or floor for attenuated the renforcment power by reflexion.

unfortunately , without any mesures freq, it is very difficult to help you...

but reminding the panel bass absorber solution ...

( many details construction is available on the net.)

salutations.
:cheers:

[leif]

Another thing both rooms have in common is that when I'm very close to the speakers (or behind the speakers) there's lots of beautiful bass

A simple suggestion: Change the location of the horns. Put them on the back side of your speakers, and turn the big beasts 180 degrees. Then you will listen to the back side of them, where the bass is loud and beautiful :banana:

[B&KMan]

A simple suggestion: Change the location of the horns. Put them on the back side of your speakers, and turn the big beasts 180 degrees. Then you will listen to the back side of them, where the bass is loud and beautiful :banana:



mmmmmm.... maybe the headphone position is better :barf:

[remusr]

Are you sure that you have the drivers wired in phase? Only bass close to individual speakers could be due to wiring issues, compounded by the 2 bass drivers/cabinet.
Easy test is when you sit in your listening position out front in the exact middle does the soudstage suddenly shift the way your head does if you move slightly to one side?

[baldrick]

A simple suggestion: Change the location of the horns. Put them on the back side of your speakers, and turn the big beasts 180 degrees. Then you will listen to the back side of them, where the bass is loud and beautiful :banana:

In fact I did try and reverse the speaker just to try it out and see if it would give me the bass I'm still looking for:bouncy: At listeining position, maybe it gain a tiny litle bit, but not very much, and of course it was just to test and see what happend ;)

It's hard to describe how bad in fact the bass is in my room, but I guess it says it all when my loend JVC surround system in my living room plays better :biting: But then again, in some parts of the room there's this beautiful bass I'm looking for... it just so frustrating not to get anything like that in the sofa :crying:

[baldrick]

Are you sure that you have the drivers wired in phase? Only bass close to individual speakers could be due to wiring issues, compounded by the 2 bass drivers/cabinet.
Easy test is when you sit in your listening position out front in the exact middle does the soudstage suddenly shift the way your head does if you move slightly to one side?

I've tested and tested and unfotunately the wiring is correct, both outside and inside the cabinet :( When I sit just in front of one speaker, it's GREAT bass, and the same if I stand between both speakers. But when I move away from the speakers I have to move to the other side of the room to get anything close to "correct bass". I totally understand why you think there could be a wire/phase problem with the speakers because that's almost how it sound, but again, it doesn't help (it makes thing even worse) when I try changing...

I've had "similar" size speakers for I guess 15 years and I've never had any problems like this before...

[leif]

Hmmm... it sounds very very odd that it is like that. Sounds like a phase problem, but if you have tried that out, then I really dont know. And if you have tried two different rooms too...
Could it be that these beasts need a very large room to get right bass?
Or could it be that you are too acustom to a boosted bass system with your old Cerwin Vega speakers? I dunno.

I wish we lived closer so I could come over and listen.
BTW, I have rented a place 29th april. 140 square meters, rectangular, high up to the cieling. That room would be perfect to test out those speakers. Too bad you are on the west coast.


Leif

[B&KMan]

In fact I did try and reverse the speaker just to try it out and see if it would give me the bass I'm still looking for:bouncy: At listeining position, maybe it gain a tiny litle bit, but not very much, and of course it was just to test and see what happend ;)

It's hard to describe how bad in fact the bass is in my room, but I guess it says it all when my loend JVC surround system in my living room plays better :biting: But then again, in some parts of the room there's this beautiful bass I'm looking for... it just so frustrating not to get anything like that in the sofa :crying:

well problem problem...

fix variables.

---test tone or music :

try with excellent quality headphone to compare signal speakers and headphone for detect problem performance driver, network, connection...

--- test to pull out speaker and replace by other in exact same place...

--- the position of your sofa it is a problem or it is a speaker interation ???

it is shure you have a problem in phase integration in your room... maybe the speaker position, maybe the sofa position, probably 2 ways.

check modal room calculator (many available in www.)

:dont-know

[Mr. Widget]

I wish we lived closer so I could come over and listen... Too bad you are on the west coast.We have that same problem over here... but here the coasts are 4,800 km apart.:D


Widget

[B&KMan]

OK DOKAY, if you have try -it all and you have problem again check this solution...

first you understand the risk of diagnotic and the erratic solution via over sea ;)

of course with intensity probe (on my prev picture) explain in 2 minutes this cancel phase effect. but I'M leave in Canada...

bee shure the pressure on back of speaker is more power and bloom than in room...


you have a great opportunity to create on wall speaker.

create and hard frame and be shure you listen height ear is half distance to low and high driver...

frame structurally very hard for this height. close area with frame rigit and put min 2 (5/8) hard gypsum board (3 or 4 ply is really better) fill this upper box in mineral wool. and fill bottom and back speaker in mineral wool.
give you gasket for tight speaker otherwise you create a radiator bass by small crack. the seal box is extremely important.

the cavity effect is completely dissapear and the modal room is completely change. the sofa maybe is still same place.

the end of free consultation. :D

[baldrick]

Hmmm... it sounds very very odd that it is like that. Sounds like a phase problem, but if you have tried that out, then I really dont know. And if you have tried two different rooms too...
Could it be that these beasts need a very large room to get right bass?
Or could it be that you are too acustom to a boosted bass system with your old Cerwin Vega speakers? I dunno.

I wish we lived closer so I could come over and listen.
BTW, I have rented a place 29th april. 140 square meters, rectangular, high up to the cieling. That room would be perfect to test out those speakers. Too bad you are on the west coast.


Leif

Offtopic: My "Cerwin Vega" speakers are in fact JBL 120TI and 1200GTI, it's only the enclosure that is Cerwin Vega ;) And belive me, the problem is NOT that I prefer a boosted bass system as you say... Again, "my reference" is still my friends 250TI (a $30-40.000 setup) and the bass in house is nowhere near his 250TI and that says it all :) So it's not my taste, it's a real problem :)


well problem problem...

fix variables.

---test tone or music :

try with excellent quality headphone to compare signal speakers and headphone for detect problem performance driver, network, connection...

--- test to pull out speaker and replace by other in exact same place...

--- the position of your sofa it is a problem or it is a speaker interation ???

it is shure you have a problem in phase integration in your room... maybe the speaker position, maybe the sofa position, probably 2 ways.

check modal room calculator (many available in www.) (http://www.)/)

:dont-know

The sofa isn't the real issue, I've tried it everywhere in my room, the same with the speakers. What I meant is that some places in my room there is bass, but if you take a look at the sketch further up in this thread you see that's nowhere near where I can put the sofa. I've also tried useing only one 4435 at a time but with the same result.

I've used only music I know very well to test this out, I think that's more accurate and correct than only test tones!?! And since it's only music I know how i supposed to sound I also know that it's not correct here :)

Room calculators are not easy to use since my rooms have many angels, in the room I was hopeing to use there is 10 differnt angels/walls!! I could take/create a 360' picture to show it.. The other room have "only" 6 angels/walls.


you have a great opportunity to create on wall speaker.


Hmmm, you mean creating a wall/baffel to fill the entire wall, like what is done in i.e. THX theathers? In fact that could be a solution if it would make the sound good. Since I'm going to use the same system also as a hometheather I long time ago had a plan to make that kind of wall and use the upper part for the screen for the projector! The problem with this is that it's not easy to try out without infact build the wall, and I guess that takes a lot of time... time I don't have at the moment since I got a son 4 weeks ago :)

Anyway... I did in fact earlier this evening try room no 3! This is almost a quadral rom (don't know if that's the word, what I mean is that all walls are almost identical, and there's only 4 walls in this room) And the first listening sounded quite promising, but since there is nothing in the room right now (it's totally empty so there's a lot of echos) and since the young ones in the house are asleep I couldn't test very much, but I will test this more out tomorrow. If this is not an sucess either, there's only one more room left to try, and that's the living room upstairs where I'm not allowed to have the speakers :) But of course I can try them there just to see if it's something with the basement that creates all my problems/frustrations :bouncy:

Thanx anyway guys for trying... time to go to bed here in Norway!

[B&KMan]

I've used only music I know very well to test this out, I think that's more accurate and correct than only test tones!?!

... time to go to bed here in Norway!

mmmm I hope you not make a nightmare psycho bass killer :applaud:

iiraaarrrrrgrhhhllllll

I explain more serious methods.

keep any shareware who create a pure tone sweep gently or try to found the pitch who the problem is more present.

because the tone is extremely constant (not music) it is easy to perceive where the pression is really higher... and phase romm reaction.

the music is a final issue to appreciate but it is not a tool. so ;)

[duaneage]

I don't know if this was suggested yet but did you use a battery to test the polarity of all the woofers? All it takes is one out of the four to be reversed and you'll get bass problems.

[P.Warner]

I don't know if this was suggested yet but did you use a battery to test the polarity of all the woofers? All it takes is one out of the four to be reversed and you'll get bass problems.
The battery check might be a nice simple way to confirm what the speakers are actually doing. Your 4435's, I'm to understand, have been reconed or refoamed at some point and I think the vintage of those speakers run smack dab into the JBL positive in/positive out orientation issue.

[baldrick]

I've doubled and trippled check all woofers and both spekers, both visual, and "soundable" and also with battery, and they are all correct. WHen I try changeing polarity on one woofer I get no bass even just in front of the speaker :)

But anyway... I've just tried the last opportunity I had in my house, put the speakers in my livingroom upstairs. And..... "unfortunately" it seems that my rooms downstairs are the only reason for my problem because the speakers are awsome in my livingroom :( This ofcourse would be great news if haveing them in my livingroom was an option, but as written earlier it isn't.

So at the moment I really don't know what to do... :dont-know

[4313B]

This of course would be great news if haveing them in my livingroom was an option, but as written earlier it isn't.
Yeah, well, welcome to the real world. :)

[JuniorJBL]

Maybe it has "NO-BASS" walls and floors!!:rotfl:

Sorry I could not resist!!

One thing you could try would be to put one of your speakers in your listening position and crawl around and find out where the best bass response is. this of course may not have the best imaging if any at all.

[baldrick]

Hehe, if this is the real world Giskard, I don't know if I like it :D I seriously don't know what to do now... I guess I how to try the same things with some other speakers in the room downstairs and see if I can get them to work properly. Early in the phase I tried my 120TI and then they seemed to work fine (but I didn't test very much). But maybe Leif have a point that 4435 need big rooms?

Anyone need a pair of 4435 :p

[baldrick]

One thing you could try would be to put one of your speakers in your listening position and crawl around and find out where the best bass response is. this of course may not have the best imaging if any at all.

Been there, done that... I tried putting one of the speakers anywhere I could think I could possibly place the sofa, but that didn't give me very many answers since I couldn't find any place with proper bass. The only way to get bass downstairs is either very close to the speaker or very close to the walls.

So maybe your right...maybe the previous owner of the house have put invissible basstraps in all rooms downstairs :bouncy:

[Rolf]

I hate to say it Tord...You GOT to talk to your wife:blah: (I can let mine call yours:bouncy: )to let them stay in your living room NOMATTER how ugly she or you think they are.:biting:

[Zilch]

They CAN be suspended (upside-down) at the wall-ceiling junction, but special rigging must be installed to do it. Contact JBL Tech Services for more info. I believe there's a rigging manual that deals with this.

It's NOT a DIY endeavor, tho....

[JuniorJBL]

That's NOT a DIY endeavor, tho....

Could be if you try hard!! Got to make sure that you have your unistrut in the proper place tho....:p

[Zilch]

Could be if you try hard!! Got to make sure that you have your unistrut in the proper place tho....:pYeah, you don't get many shots at it without having to rebuild the house.... ;)

[JuniorJBL]

Yeah, you don't get many shots at it without having to rebuild the house.... ;)

That could solve the bass problem tho....:p

[eyedoc]

Greetings

I don’t know that I can be of any assistance, but as I have been given some wonderful advice from the forum, the least I can do is to try to help with my experiences. I started a thread a month or so ago about tuning my room versus an eq, and was given a lot to think about. I have a pair of L100t3's as my front channel, that have been suffering from a “head cold”. Everything was weak and nasally. I figured that the big problem was the brick wall behind the system. I had found a while back the suggestion of filling a porous bag with packing peanuts to put in the corner, and it really did tighten up the bass some. It was suggested here to get rid of them and instead try foam (like furniture padding). I have since purchased two “queen sized beds” worth of foam mattress pad (shaped almost like egg crates) and lined the back wall. Not only have I cured the head cold, the bass has become more focused and the sound stage is much wider. I continue to experiment with additional foam placement and my plan is to build a false wall in front of the foam with speaker grill material when I find the sonics I am looking for. Wifey says I can have the foam glued to the wall while the experiment is going on. This might be something for you to try as well.

Good luck.

P.S. if you can not find anything that will work, I will be happy to take the bassless speakers off you hands...:bouncy:

[baldrick]

Hmmmm, interesting.... I guess what you are talking about is about the same I've questioned earlier in this thread called basstraps! It could look something like this:

http://avforum.no/avtorget/data/11/54125412IMAG0010-large-large.jpg

I've also in another thread asked if it could help, but was then told that it would only reduce the bass, and that is the least thing I want :)

"Factory basstraps" like the one on the picture is way overpriced, but DIY can be made quite cheap so maybe it's worth a try... maybe I should buy a package of Rockwool and make some this weekend :)

[Zilch]

I've also in another thread asked if it could help, but was then told that it would only reduce the bass, and that is the least thing I want....Think about it. You're losing bass because it's being cancelled by reflected waves traveling a longer distance to your listening position and thus arriving out-of-phase.

Stopping ("trapping") them solves the problem. The corners may be the culprit....

[baldrick]

So you're saying that this could be an solution worth trying? And the "reduced bass" could in my problem rooms infact mean increased?

As also written earlier in this thread I already tried placeing alot of pillows and stuff in my room and it did infact help quite a bit (but not at all enough) So maybe the combination of basstraps and big carpets on the floor could be a way out of the dark?

[toddalin]

Hmmmm, interesting.... I guess what you are talking about is about the same I've questioned earlier in this thread called basstraps! It could look something like this:

http://avforum.no/avtorget/data/11/54125412IMAG0010-large-large.jpg

I've also in another thread asked if it could help, but was then told that it would only reduce the bass, and that is the least thing I want :)

"Factory basstraps" like the one on the picture is way overpriced, but DIY can be made quite cheap so maybe it's worth a try... maybe I should buy a package of Rockwool and make some this weekend :)

Note the preferred location of the bass traps with respect to the direct radiator.:D

[edgewound]

I bet you've got plenty of bass when listening in another room...if that's the case, by all means treat the room.

[baldrick]

If you read the whole thread you'll see that I've tried 3 rooms in the basement and none of them sounded good at all. It was first when I tried them in my livingroom (the only room where I can't have them) they sounded like they should.

Instead of useing rockwool for the DIY basstraps... could it be an option useing a kind of "liquid foam" (the type that dries and get kinda hard in a couple of hours)? Exatcly what I'm thinking of is foam used mainly in industry for packing stuff that it's hard to pack normal. (it's kinda the same as buildingfoam used when monuintg windows so that they are airtight) (BTW: Yes I've heard it before that I have many strange ideas.. )

[eyedoc]

I don’t think that I would go the spray foam route for a couple of reasons. 1) I think the hard foam will reflect more where the soft foam will absorb the sound waves. 2) The foam is more permanent/stationary. I have been moving the “wall of foam” around slightly for the past several weeks, and each time I make changes, it makes sound changes as well. Not all changes have been better, so when a change does not work, I can change it back. I also have several “cubes” (note equal sides but more of 3D rectangles) and smaller pieces of mattress pad (12X18X1 or so) that I have been experimenting with as well. I did start with pillows, but wifey did not like that idea as well...:banghead: The small $$ that I have spent has been a good investment both in sound and knowledge.

Again, I will be glad to take them off of your hands....:bouncy:

[eyedoc]

I bet you've got plenty of bass when listening in another room...if that's the case, by all means treat the room.

I think what he means is that when you step into the other room (not where the speakers are), there is probably more bass.

eyedoc

[Delldi]

I also have a pair...how do you like them??

They can also be seen at: http://www.wardsweb.org/audio/show_sae.html

Frank

[B&KMan]

I also have a pair...how do you like them??

They can also be seen at: http://www.wardsweb.org/audio/show_sae.html

Frank

mmmmmmmmmm

are you ready for an earthquake??

maybe yes but your CD rack and your turntable surely not :D

nice and real stuff.

play loud and look !!!


:dj-party:

:cheer: