Horns VS cones

[JuniorJBL]

I would like to hear what people have to say about horns vs dome/cone speaker systems.
Please do not get into a debate about what YOU think is best just your opinions.
I would also like to know the details about what you hear in the speaker system imaging sound stage and the likes.
I have only had dome/cone speakers and I am wondering what people think.
Please keep this to a low roar as I know this can be a big debate.
Also keep this to JBL horns and cones ONLY!!;)

PS: Moderators if this should be in the General forum please move there (it most likely should, sorry)

[Titanium Dome]

You can't start a thread like this unless you reference this one:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6093

There's a reason my moniker has "dome" in it, instead of "horn." :yes:

[4313B]

I've owned pretty much every higher end JBL from the 70's, 80's and 90's and I've always preferred the direct radiators to the cd/horn systems. I did find the 4430 and 4435 to be the most tolerable of the horn/cd systems and the 4430 was a mainstay in my collection longer than any other JBL if I leave out counting the 4313B.

I've heard some truly impressive large format cd/horn based studio monitors belonging to other people who have taken the time to set them up right and they can be truly remarkable. Mounting the monitors in walls, which I've done quite a few times, and employing a considerable amount of environmental assessories can make all the difference.

I am looking forward to the Array Series and other soon to be revealed systems. Rumor is, "they have the power and dynamics of horns, they just don't sound like any of the horns you're used to" and that's pretty much what I've been waiting for all these years. :)

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks for the link Dome I was searching last night LATE but who knows what I was searching for:dont-know I thought I was searching for horns but.....

Giskard I really want to hear the xxxxxx-xx when it is out as well. and thanks for your input as it is very similar to my views so far.

[Titanium Dome]

I've owned pretty much every higher end JBL from the 70's, 80's and 90's and I've always preferred the direct radiators to the cd/horn systems. I did find the 4430 and 4435 to be the most tolerable of the horn/cd systems and the 4430 was a mainstay in my collection longer than any other JBL if I leave out counting the 4313B.

I've heard some truly impressive large format cd/horn based studio monitors belonging to other people who have taken the time to set them up right and they can be truly remarkable. Mounting the monitors in walls, which I've done quite a few times, and employing a considerable amount of environmental assessories can make all the difference.

I am looking forward to the Array Series and other soon to be revealed systems. Rumor is, "they have the power and dynamics of horns, they just don't sound like any of the horns you're used to" and that's pretty much what I've been waiting for all these years. :)


Sheesh! My eyes are red and my pants are wet just thinking about it. :eek:

[Nightbrace]

OH NO< this thread may NEVER end!

[chad]

....Also keep this to JBL horns and cones ONLY!!;)....


I'd love to respond, however my loudspeaker palette goes outside the realm of JBL. Anyway, here is my contribution, a little pair of drivers for you.



:drive::drive:

[skeptical1]

Given your experience and history with JBL, I am curious as to whether you have heard any of the K2 series, and in particular the K2 9800?
My taste seems to be similar to yours with regards to horn systems, but I think the K2 would change my opinion, based upon the reviews I have read.

And your remark about forthcoming unanounced promising systems from JBL( in addition to Array series, I assume?), leaves me with a bunch of hope for the future.

[Titanium Dome]

In its normal consumer lines in the US, the only horns I'm aware of in the past two decades are Bi-Radial&#174; designs. These were used in the SVA Series, the HLS Series, and the current HT Series, which really is just an improved SVA design with Ti drivers in place of the soft domes.

I'm excluding Synthesis and K2 lines becuase of their ultra-niche status. When is a consumer product not really a consumer product? :hmm:

It appears that the SVAs and HLSs didn't sell all that well and weren't in production all that long. It appears consumer taste in general is not inclined toward horns.

The recently debuted Studio L Series and the new Project Array Series have horns, though the Studio L horns are miniscule. We'll see if the Project Arrays generate any buzz for horns in the consumer space.

IMO there's a disproportionate fondness for horn-based systems on LH because so many folks have specific backgrounds. In a sampling of a more normal population of consumers or even of JBL-owning consumers, horns would be less well-represented than they are on these virtual pages.

One could argue that if people who make their living in sound or who invest as much time in music reproduction as we do tend to prefer horns at a rate higher than the general music listening population, then maybe horns are indeed preferable. Unfortunately, it could mean other things as well.

For me, the preferred sound comes from direct radiators. So as much as I enjoy a good HORNING from time to time, when I'm serious about sound, it's direct for me.

[Mr. Widget]

Ah never mind... they're all flawed and wonderful too...

Widget

[scott fitlin]

Horns have the quality of offering a realistic sound, big dynamic swing. Its an elusive quality, though. One thats often harder to achieve correctly than it is to get it all wrong. And this was true 25 and 35 and 45 years ago just like it is today. But, when you do get em to work the way they are intended to, its magic, its alive!

Direct radiators can be fantastic too. More dimensional, better for close in listening. Cone mid is warmer, yet dynamic, depending on the cone driver, of course.



Great horn based systems require much money, and just as much skill and knowledge to get the correct sound from!

[Zilch]

Well, there's horns with compression drivers, and horns without.

It ain't apples and apples.

I don't consider horns without compression drivers as horns at all.

Unless they're BASS horns, of course.

Or cone midrange compression drivers (CMCD,) maybe.

HLS and SVA horns aren't "horns," in my book.

"Waveguides," maybe.

[Never mind.... :p ]

[Ian Mackenzie]

Junior,

In some respects your answer is a give away.

Long term cone/direct radiator listeners tend to stay with what they are used to.

However.................if you are looking for more or a system that can do more..or the next level read on.

On my experiences ......oddly I went from a 43xx horn (HF and UHF) back to a soft dome RCF monitor model SCD 6000 (a poor mans JBL 4312) and while they were mellow and polite they lacked the micro dymanics and sheer accuracy of a medium format 4 way like a 4345.

If you are trying to make your mind up..the distinction is not horns versus cones per say....its the application..

You probably won't like a two way horn system as much as a 3 way cone system in the same class. But a 4 or 5 way horn system or a hyprid cone woofer +mid and a Horn Hf and uhf as a 4 way might give you the accuracy and spine tingling micro dynamics that JBL as are famous for.

I have always found 3 way horn systems more acceptable for real hifi listening because the mass rolloff of compression drivers tends make two ways loose out on accuracy and true extension.

Also, consider the current crop small crop medium size cone systems now using wave guides on the dome tweeters. The wave guides control early reflections and improve imaging while also significantly reducing driver harmonic distortion at the bottom end of the range allowing the dome to work much lower into the domain where a good woofer mid cone driver is still in piston mode.


Unfortunately this is not very practical for large systems because of the size of mouth of the wave guides at lower frequencies. (see Earl Geddes home page for details)


I have a heard a few of these systems and they are really excellent, particularly for near and mid field listening.

Hope these few thoughts help..trust your ears not the specs!

[norealtalent]

Ah never mind... they're all flawed and wonderful too...

Widget

You took the words right out of my mouth...:bouncy:

[Robh3606]

Hey Dome

Your missing Klipsh with their Tractics horns, Edgar Horns, and several others out there. Horns have a small but devoted group of followers. As far as more Hornies here than the norm your probably correct. The thing is with JBL, any of the larger systems are at least a hybrid with a horn loaded mid, tweeter of both. Horns are so ingrained in JBL's heritage I think it would be unusual for a JBL lover not to at least appreciate their advantages and not fall head over heels for the dynamic and effortless presentation they are capable of. In general these are only rarely approached by most other dynamic loudspeakers. The dynamic drivers that come closest to me are JBL, Altec and Tad drivers. No surprise there though.

Rob:)

[DavidF]

I would like to hear what people have to say about horns vs dome/cone speaker systems.


All things equal, horns provide more sound with less distortion. That’s the big plus and it should be enough except that the bandwidth of horns is really narrow compared to direct radiators. Working more toward the subjective, horns couple the sound wave from driver-to-room with a sense of transient snap in the sound wave. The leading edge of the hammer on the string on the recorded piano strikes your ears almost like is direct-wired to your ear drum. The cone/dome in contrast can sound a bit dulled in comparison, like the air damped the leading edge from speaker-to-ear.

Horn downsides are many so compromises abound with their use. The ideal set up is the all-horn system. This brings the speed and horn sound all across the spectrum. Since bass horns are huge, though, most of the time the first significant compromise is the use of a slow-poke cone woofer. The next significant compromise is limited bandwidth. The KlipschHorn barely covers the typical audio spectrum but does so with all kinds of colorations. Still, the magic of that speaker is the full horn sound top-to-bottom. Another pesky problem with horns is the sound return from diffraction all along the horn path. This creates nulls and peaks that are difficult to tame and color the sound to some extent. There is also time delay, power response disconnects, falling high-end response, and more, to work with in horn systems. More recent developments (and revisiting some very old ideas to be sure) with high frequency horns (yea, JBL) dispersion and wave propagation have gone along way to mitigate the legacy problems of horns.

People can become accustomed to the “horn sound” and this to them becomes the norm. Listening to direct radiators then seems wrong even though the direct radiator system is providing all of the same energy and response. Ideally, you should not be able to “hear” the horn but folks often confuse the horn effect for “better” than the direct radiator. Not necessary so, bro.

The world still needs a better horn so that leaves only the cost to worry about. And, yes, wouldn't it be nice to have the low end with the same snap and clarity heard with a horn high end? More money, much more space.

Davidf

[Titanium Dome]

Hey Dome

Your missing Klipsh with their Tractics horns, Edgar Horns, and several others out there. Horns have a small but devoted group of followers. As far as more Hornies here than the norm your probably correct. The thing is with JBL, any of the larger systems are at least a hybrid with a horn loaded mid, tweeter of both. Horns are so ingrained in JBL's heritage I think it would be unusual for a JBL lover not to at least appreciate their advantages and not fall head over heels for the dynamic and effortless presentation they are capable of. In general these are only rarely approached by most other dynamic loudspeakers. The dynamic drivers that come closest to me are JBL, Altec and Tad drivers. No surprise there though.

Rob:)

Hi Rob.

Not missing Klipsch as a big purveyor of horns, but in the consumer space, still not a big segment. Going to some of the multipurpose audio sites, there's lots of air about Bose, Paradigm, Athena, Ascend, Rockets, KEF, Polk, B&W, DefTech, Energy, Wharfdale, etc.

There's a bit of Klipsch and even less of JBL, and the JBL is almost always about Northridge it seems. Too often the Klipsch threads involve getting advice on what to replace the Klipsch speakers with.

[Steve Gonzales]

I've just finished listening to some of my favorite recordings after a long day of work and I'm just amazed at the clarity and dynamics of the system I've worked so hard to build for myself. There is some well recorded music I own, that during playback, you would swear the performer is right in front of you, awesome!. I love JBL compression drivers/horns. They just satisfy me. I've owned a bunch of JBL models over the years and they were fine for that point of the journey, but once I heard the horns, I knew that was what I was searching for. It's a funny thing, I can't understand how a person could like anything else and then my experience in life tells me that 'to each, his own' is the real answer to the question. The L250 is probably the only pure cone equipped model that I enjoy listening to for an extended period. I haven't heard TiDome's models, so I can't say I've heard them all, but for me, it's gotta be compression drivers and horns. My wish is to express my personal take on this subject and not to offend one single member who's preference is cone/domes or not in line with me, just as long as they are:

Just Bitchin' Loudspeakers!

[scott fitlin]

Horn downsides are many so compromises abound with their use. The ideal set up is the all-horn system. This brings the speed and horn sound all across the spectrum. Since bass horns are huge, though, most of the time the first significant compromise is the use of a slow-poke cone woofer. The next significant compromise is limited bandwidth. The KlipschHorn barely covers the typical audio spectrum but does so with all kinds of colorations.

But there are more types of bass horns the just K Horns. I agree, K Horns have speed, but sound a bit muffled in the mid bass, low mid region! This is the primary reason I only like folded bass horns, for sub bass duty. For bass, mid bass, I like the Altec style of bass horns, which JBL also made horns of similar type. Straight, front loaded bass horns do not sound like Klipsch horns.

With the Altec VOTT style horns, you get the projectivity, and dynamic snap horns are famous for, as well as the clarity of a direct radiating woofer. Another topic of debate is the purity, but limited LF BW of a TOTAL straight front loaded horn cabinet, with no bass reflex vent to enhance LF performance, or combination vented/straight front loaded horns. I prefer the combination cabinets, such as Altec 816,s, and 817,s and some of the larger VOTT cabs like 211,s! These have the dynamics and punch, and realism, and a more extended LF.

[JuniorJBL]

To Davidf and Ian

Thanks for sharing your very informative views.:applaud:

The main reason I am asking this question is because I would like to know what other people hear!
I am not trying to put others against others I am trying to understand.
I just sat down and listened to one of my systems and I am now hearing a presence far back (more than I think it should be) and it does seem that it should be more forward. This does not say it sounds bad just lacking in the mids as far as mids go.

I am younger than most here (38) and I would like to continue to enjoy ALL speaker systems for what they are. I have just been out of the loop on horns. I have listened to a few "other" horn systems but they did not do it for me. Do not get me wrong they did sound good but as I listened to them I wondered If you removed the horn UHF and replaced it with a XXX it might be more to my liking. These are just some of the "feelings" I have had when listening.

I am thinking I should "play" with a few different combo's and see what sounds good to my ears. This will be hard because of the cost of the shop I just built but will soon come. I am sorry that I put "keep it to JBL" as I was meaning to build JBL horn systems. It would seem that some people can not explain what they hear without saying what they listened to.
I am not concerned with "what kind of speaker they listened to" just what got them going about it. Also how would you get there from here with JBL.
This is what it's about.
I have not been graced with hearing a pair of 4343,4344,4345's or any other horn/lens based JBL monitor for more than about 1-2 minutes.
I have built LARGE horn based LF (16'h x 16' wide) but unless you have a room the size of !!!X$%#@#$E^XX!!! then you are Sh!t out of luck. they just do not work in small rooms very well.
So anyone who can give this kind of description about how they like "whatever" Please respond.
Also if you have some design "theories" please include them.

Thanks very much for the replies.
Shane

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks Steve and Scott for your input.
I was posting while you were. It would seem that a "mix" of the two would be the best for me. I am a fan of the extended ULF that you can only get from bass reflex/sealed subs in a small room. It would seem that I am searching for the "mid" freqecies that sound so present :blink: when listening to a speaker system. It would also seem that is why sometimes I like LOUD when I am trying to listen to music.:blink:

Edit: Mr. Widget where did you go?

[Mr. Widget]

Edit: Mr. Widget where did you go?I'm trying to avoid cluttering these threads with the useless fluff that seems to pour out at times.:)


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

I'm trying to avoid cluttering these threads with the useless fluff that seems to pour out at times.:)


Widget

OK! I understand ;)

[Steve Gonzales]

Thanks Steve and Scott for your input.
I was posting while you were. It would seem that a "mix" of the two would be the best for me. I am a fan of the extended ULF that you can only get from bass reflex/sealed subs in a small room. It would seem that I am searching for the "mid" freqecies that sound so present :blink: when listening to a speaker system. It would also seem that is why sometimes I like LOUD when I am trying to listen to music.:blink:

Edit: Mr. Widget where did you go?
First off, you are very welcome!.
Secondly, it seems your are searching for the same thing that just about everyone else is. I think that a reasonable compromise (IMHO) is a mixture of both cones and compression/horns, JBL did it-4343 etc. I think a great setup to try is 077/076= UHF, 2440/2441/375/376 on a 2397 Smithhorn= midrange, 2122/2123 midbass, 2235H/2245H = LF and a good electronic crossover. This setup is close to a 4343 or 4345 configuration with the 2397 horn being able the deliver the 'goods' better than a 2311/2308-H93/375/6 or a 2307/H91-LE85/2420/2421 for 1" midrange. For a three way: 076/077= HF, 2441/2440/375/376+ 2397 midrange and 2235H/LE14H/136a. I need to say something, but first: NO FLAME INTENDED, I am not a fan of Titanium diaphragms or domes, BUT..., Member 'NoRealtalent' is my best Bud, we agree about 99.9% of the time and I have said to him that, (in general and in my experience) Titanium, TO ME, is harsh sounding, BUT..., his Westlake BBSM15's use a 2426/25H compression driver in tandem with a beautiful Westlake wood horn. Now, here's the kicker, he says that they are AMAZING. When he says that to me, I've got to believe that he means exactly that, I know him too well and he doesn't just use those types of terms lightly. So it must be in the enormous passive crossover ( about 40-60 hours to build at their shop). So..., I imagine, some crossover GURU, read: Giskard/Ian McK, could design a charge coupled/bypass capped/ passive unit that would be killer and 'tame the Titan" too, should you go that route. You could do about the same by using cones/domes too. There are so many varibles to think about. It is sooooooooo hard to find out what sounds good, even if you've heard what is suppose to be a great combo, was it in a good room? Were the source componants up to snuff? Exactly, a crap shoot. This is why it has taken alot of us YEARS to piece together our systems, and given that, I believe most of us would say: we're not there yet. The real guide in this journey is your very own ears. I used mine and have what to me, is a sweet sounding, dynamic and powerful system, able to whisper nuance or set you back in your chair at high, undistorted db levels, at least enough so, that I can just listen to music for hours without thinking about it's possible shortcomings. That's a good place to be. I hope you can gleen enough information from the replies to get a direction. Best of luck in your quest, Regards, Steve G.

[norealtalent]

... (in general and in my experience) Titanium, TO ME, is harsh sounding, BUT..., his Westlake BBSM15's use a 2426/25H compression driver in tandem with a beautiful Westlake wood horn. Now, here's the kicker, he says that they are AMAZING. When he says that to me, I've got to believe that he means exactly that, I know him too well and he doesn't just use those types of terms lightly. ... Best of luck in your quest, Regards, Steve G.

I ran those Westies for a couple weeks with the stock horns and drivers. I wanted to get to know them and what they really sound like. At the continual recommendation of a few other members, I finally hooked a pair of Smith Horns with 2441's in place of the titanium's. The stock Westie's are nice and I could live with them if I had nothing else. With the killer Westlake crossover the Smith/2441 rig offers a seamless transparency that fills the room with a smooth, rich quality of detail that I have otherwise only experienced through very small and personal live performances or The Old Mill System of Jonathan Weiss who was graciuos enough to invite me for a personal audition of his RCA/WE tube/field coil system. Keeping in mind of course, one of his horn drivers sells for more than I gave for the Westie's complete, in my experience, you just can't beat a Smith Horn.:bouncy:

[4313B]

I would like to hear what people have to say about horns vs dome/cone speaker systems.Well, after reading this thread all I can say is forget it - get out and listen to some systems. Talk about them while you are sitting and listening to them.

There have to be some guys left out in Denver who can hook you up with some good horn systems. I know a few that are on this forum but will leave it up to them to come forward. They've kind of lost interest here and don't read or post anymore. I'll send a few PM's and see what happens. I'd suggest hooking up with some local audiophile groups. Check out Ron Gold and Intrinsic Sound if they are still around. Intrinsic Sound wasn't too big on JBL but that's a good thing. They can give you a whole different perspective. Ron might have some horn systems around. Howard Sound is long gone, as is Barath Acoustics. :( (Howard had the big JBL and Cetec Gauss bins back when that whole thing exploded) Listen Up had the Klispch stuff for awhile I think. Can't remember who the big Mac Dealer was. They had tons of horn systems. Anyway, people had to have bought all this stuff hence the audiophile groups.

[Maron Horonzakz]

I have a Klipschorn Hybred...The first thing you do when aquireing a Khorn is to throw away the woofer and drivers...Mine use the JBL E145 or 2205(early units) the top horn is a very large Smith horn with 375/2440. Tweeter is a 2404 all useing a electronic xover & six amps. The Smith horn must be capable of going down to 400hz . The JBL 2397 is too small. this system has been in operation for 25 years. So yes I do love an all horn system. The dynamic range and explosive wave fronts still amaze me. Ive tried many times to use a none horn system & meet with great disapointment..Yes ive heard some sweet direct driver speakers. But keep going back to all horn system for FULL satisfaction...Im right your all wrong and that ends the debate.;)

[norealtalent]

...But keep going back to all horn system for FULL satisfaction...Im right your all wrong and that ends the debate.;)
...and thats the name of that tune folks!:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

[JuniorJBL]

Wow you guys are giving great input here.

Giskard About the only person here still is Gold Sound.(I should go down to talk with him)
Intrinsic I think is still here but a very small more used store. I did buy some cheap drivers from a while back.

Listen-up is mostly all high end with some avarege stuff as well (B&W,Classe,Sonus Faber,MF) but thier pro side is JBL pro. I do know most of the people down there.

There are a few other stores here with mid to high-end as well. not very many horns tho.

I had to go to Ft.Collins to listen to the horns I did listen to (Avantgarde Duo's) They did sound good but there were some things I did not like about them as well. The room was good but they were using single-ended 5watt tubes and truth be known I am a SS guy who likes power unless the tube is a BIG MAC or BAT. other then that I did like them.:)

The reason I say JBL only is because I really do not want to join another forum and would like to learn all I can from here. If I keep trying to learn all the different stuff plus new stuff I loose time to do the things I want to do. :banghead:

As was said it is time to go listen and it will most likly be gold sound.
If we do get some others to respond that would be great. And if there are some people from the denver area that would be even better.

Thanks Again Shane;)

[4313B]

I really do not want to join another forum and would like to learn all I can from here. If I keep trying to learn all the different stuff plus new stuff I loose time to do the things I want to do. Oh. I meant group not forum. There used to be several audiophile groups around in Denver and one could go listen to different loudspeaker systems in different environments. That's kind of how one finds out just how crappy a pair of say L300's can sound in one home and how great they can sound in another home. :p

[JuniorJBL]

Oh. I meant group not forum. There used to be several audiophile groups around in Denver and one could go listen to different loudspeaker systems in different environments. That's kind of how one finds out just how crappy a pair of say L300's can sound in one home and how great they can sound in another home. :p


ohisee:D

Yea maybe but one thing I really like to do is understand the how's and the why's. I really hate to know "just enough to get in trouble":banghead:

But you are right If I am not mistken there are quite a few "horn groups" here in town.
Thanks Giskard

[Harkness]

oh man, i love my horns..

horn loaded bass is especially powerful. it really hits you like real sound. try reproducing well recorded drums (like morello on take 5) at live levels and physically feeling the bass drum with a cone system. you would need a lot of direct radiating drivers to achieve the dynamic speed and power of a horn loaded bass cabinet. horn loaded speakers are big, but a decent folded horn will reproduce better bass sound than a much larger ported enclosure.


i also enjoy some cones.. my first ear opening speaker set was a pair of LE-8's/PR-8's that i put into a solid mid-sized box. played with my tube leak point 1 preamp and a dynaco stereo 35 and my rega turntable i had incredibly lifelike sound until i wanted to hear it loud. played quietly though, it was like a direct line to the grooves.. vocals sounded amazing. so liquid.

i use cone studio monitors all the time. they sound best when massively over-amped with beefy power. then they begin to sound dynamically responsive.

[scott fitlin]

Yes, Harkness, I agree with you, but, I have found that for really proper folded horn bass and sub bass, the horn cabinets get quite large. And, large horns sometimes need large rooms to operate correctly.

One thing I like about horn systems, is you usually dont need much power, and low power, high efficiency systems can not only sound real, lifelike and play at realistic levels, they also ( set up properly ) can sound really easy on the ears!

But, then, as much as I love horn systems, for bass, the major manufacturers are not really making drivers truly suitable for horn loading these days! Horn woofers usually had lightweight cones that were stiff, with a really fast response. These days, everyone is making heavy weight cones, with higher and higher power handling! I guess they have to keep up with the amp manufacturers, but, vintage horns and woofers can sound amazing, what happens if you want to buy new?

FWIW, I have used modern day woofers in horns -vs- older, traditional horn woofers in horns, and pretty much always prefered the older woofer for horn loading! One thing I have noticed, as they increase the power handling ability of woofers, they seem to lose the snap, and immediacy their predecessors had. I have also heard folded bass horns, made today, designed for the woofers they use, that are made now, and still thought them kind of foggy sounding!

One of my favorite folded horn woofers was Gauss! Those things KICKED, and had that snap and twang that made bass come to life, I also loved JBL E-155,s in rear loaded horns. It just worked! I, recently, had put a pair of E-155,s into one of my scoops just to see if they still had it! Yes they do! So clear, and centered on the kick of the drum, with a fast, snap to the bassists pluck of the string. Sounds live! Too bad I dont have enough E-155,s to load all my rear loaded horns with them. Not the absolute deepest bottom, and yet, something was really right about the way it sounds, TO ME!

I must confess, I miss that stuff!

:)

[Tom Brennan]

Direct radiators are good for bass if they're big but from midrange on up I want horns.

I don't understand the enthusiasm for JBL fullrange direct radiators, all of them I've heard have been rather mediocre (IMO). It's the big woofers, compression drivers and horns that make JBL and Altec of interest, I know how to get a Madisound catalog if I want chinless small cones and tragic domes.

If I get into fullrange direct radiators I'll go Bozaks, in fact I already have some Bozak coaxials waiting in the wings.

[scott fitlin]

Direct radiators are good for bass if they're big but from midrange on up I want horns.

Yeah, I feel that way too.

Thats why, as long as I can keep them going, I will never take my Altec VOTT,s, and JBL 2395/2441, or JBL 2402,s out of here!

:D

[louped garouv]

Junior --

I am in the middle of rewiring my system right now.... but in a week or so, I should be done. if you want to hear my Altec A7s (mine are: 511B horn with 802Gs, 515B woofers), you are more than welcome to check them out.....

I will be running my A7s with a pair of 075s and subs off of a active 4way crossover


I am sure they are not the greatest system around town, but I like them just fine......

just be aware that this is not your father's hi-fi


:dj-party:

[JuniorJBL]

That would be awesome :applaud:

[louped garouv]

I'll give you a call when i am done and we can set up a day/time.....

what's your poison?

I normally have scotch, burbon, wine (white, red, bubbly), and some other liquors around the house, but always looking to expand my palette ;)

[Titanium Dome]

Direct radiators are good for bass if they're big but from midrange on up I want horns.

I don't understand the enthusiasm for JBL fullrange direct radiators, all of them I've heard have been rather mediocre (IMO). It's the big woofers, compression drivers and horns that make JBL and Altec of interest, I know how to get a Madisound catalog if I want chinless small cones and tragic domes.

If I get into fullrange direct radiators I'll go Bozaks, in fact I already have some Bozak coaxials waiting in the wings.


Yeah, I feel that way too.

Thats why, as long as I can keep them going, I will never take my Altec VOTT,s, and JBL 2395/2441, or JBL 2402,s out of here!

:D


I couldn't be more pleased that you're pleased with your horns, despite your disparagement of cones and domes.

Good for you, men.

[scott fitlin]

I couldn't be more pleased that you're pleased with your horns, despite your disparagement of cones and domes.

Good for you, men.No, quite the opposite, I do not disparage direct radiators, they have their place! I happen to love my vented/horn bass cabinets. The best of both worlds!

I am also installing some direct radiator subs, I like the clarity, and in other regions love horns. But its a combination of things for me!

:D

[Titanium Dome]

No, quite the opposite, I do not disparage direct radiators, they have their place! I happen to love my vented/horn bass cabinets. The best of both worlds!

I am also installing some direct radiator subs, I like the clarity, and in other regions love horns. But its a combination of things for me!

:D

Sorry ScottyJ. I thought when you wrote "Yeah, I feel that way, too" that you were agreeing with Tom. Maybe not 100%, then?

[scott fitlin]

I do agree with Tom, BUT I also use direct radiating for other regions!

Truth be told, Altec VOTT,s are a combination of direct and horn produced sound, and I like this alot!

But, for my mids, mid bass and highs, I like some type of horn loading.

I may endeavor to build some 15in BR quad boxes after I get my new ported " Direct Radiator " subs. I like the deepness and clean sound of good ported boxes, and I like the dynamics of horns, and I want to combine things for the ultimate in sound. I have seen this done before in installs similar to mine!

:D

[Steve Schell]

I have to agree with you bass hornies regarding the superiority of bass horns, and their choice as optimum to match the rest of a horn system. It is simply the ideal choice if their size can be tolerated. Physics win out here, as direct radiator low frequency drivers have to work so much harder than horn loaded drivers to produce the same level, and most distortions are proportional to excursion. Even with ambitious large format studio monitors, the d.r. bass doesn't seem to quite keep up with the rest of the horn loaded range dynamically.

When people make remarks about my 128 cubic foot horn subwoofer, I tell them "It's not large, its just the right size to do the job."

[4313B]

It is simply the ideal choice if their size can be tolerated. Physics win out here, as direct radiator low frequency drivers have to work so much harder than horn loaded drivers to produce the same level, and most distortions are proportional to excursion. Even with ambitious large format studio monitors, the d.r. bass doesn't seem to quite keep up with the rest of the horn loaded range dynamically.

Very nice Steve.

[JuniorJBL]

I have built a few "folded,horn loaded" bass cabs some where pretty good as well. They were big as well. But they did sound very good. They had control that a direct radiator just did not have. This is what I perceived at the time. I never put them with mf/hf horns tho.

Thanks Steve for your input as well as others. I am going to a forum members house soon to listen to his Altecs. I am looking forward to this.:applaud:

[Harkness]

I have to agree with you bass hornies regarding the superiority of bass horns, and their choice as optimum to match the rest of a horn system....
...Even with ambitious large format studio monitors, the d.r. bass doesn't seem to quite keep up with the rest of the horn loaded range dynamically.
yep, that's the way i hear it.

[L100t Owner]

I'll give you the final answer first. If you want to hear a horn system set up properly, go to the Klipsch forum. Lots of very friendly people over there that are all over the world. Someone local will undoubtedly invite you over for a day of music and audio talk.

I have been running horns for a while now. Klipschorns, Belles and Heresys. They are very dynamic and sound wonderful when set up properly. The speakers dissappear and your just have this huge detailed soundstage in front of you.

The Klipschorns and Belles are fully horn loaded. The shortcomming of Klipsch speakers is the drivers and midrange horns. An exponential design is used in the "heritage" line and this will not change as that teh way Paul Klipsch designed them. These are being replaced by many with the tractrix (Spelling??:blink: ) design advocated by Edgar. It it said to be much smoother and similar to Altec 511 horns.

I just sold my K horns because I am building a new system using a Speakerlab bass bin Klipsch knockoff, JBL 2570 compression drivers on Altec 511B's and JBL 2404 baby cheeks. I use a pro Yamaha D2040 active crossover (with time delay) and tri amplify.

Horns are sensative to amplification. Any harshness or "grain" (or tube amp hum for that matter) is heard. Tubes seem to be the preferred means. I used a Scott tube integrated in teh past and now I use a Juicy Music tube preamp and a combination of QSC solid state for woofer and digital amps for the mids and tweeters. Dynamics are awesome and clarity and detail is remarkable. The big benefit is that the drivers are barely moving and hence distortion is very low. I switch back and forth between a Benchmark DAC1 and an AH! Tubed CD player. The Benchmark had geat detail with the horns and everything, even bad recordings, sound good using the AH!

While I am waiitng to complete my new K horn system I am using a Sony digitally amplified receiver, "ALK" crossover and Belles with a Benchmark DAC1. It, for a budget system, sounds fantastic. Digital amps work extremely well with horns an dthey are very inexpensive.

Good luck in your quest.

Chris

[4313B]

I'll give you the final answer first. If you want to hear a horn system set up properly, go to the Klipsch forum.Nice post! I'd rather go with the Array Series though.

[Maron Horonzakz]

Giskard....Are you trying to say the Array will sound better than the Klipsch RF7 tracktrix? (at a fraction of the price):blink:

[4313B]

I'm not trying to say anything.
What I said was "I'd rather go with the Array Series."

[Maron Horonzakz]

I,m not trying to bait you. I just wondered how you came to that conclusion?

[4313B]

I,m not trying to bait you. I just wondered how you came to that conclusion?
This is a Lansing Hertage website and I like Lansing products?

[Maron Horonzakz]

Oh!!!! I like Both.....Have Paragon plus other JBL drivers plus Klipschorns (4 units) 2 units modified with JBL components.

[JuniorJBL]

If I was to use any horn speaker it would be a JBL monitor design most likely. The reason for this is I am not a tube amp fan. I like the snap of SS over tube. I do however like the sound of a tube pre.

So I guess my original statement should have been JBL horns VS direct radiators.
I have listened to some very nice horn systems (Avant Garde duo's) and they did sound nice but it was not a sound that I think I could live with ALL the time.

I also would like to here the Array system. This is one of the reasons I have presented this question.
Shane

[4313B]

Oh!!!! I like Both.....Have Paragon plus other JBL drivers plus Klipschorns (4 units) 2 units modified with JBL components.
Yeah, fortunately all my audio needs are met without having to resort to Klipsch products. I've heard more Klipsch systems in more venues than I ever needed to or desired to.

So I guess my original statement should have been JBL horns VS direct radiators.Yeah, probably. I suppose since this is a Lansing Heritage website it was automatically assumed. It's certainly what I assumed you meant.

[JuniorJBL]

In my listening time (about 28 years) I still seem to think your (Giskard) first post in this thread was what I was looking for. I do like the sound of a well setup horn system but I am not sure if I could have them as my full time listening setup.
I was more leaning towards a system like a 4345 because of the design and the R&D that went in to this system.
The Avant Gardes that I listened to sounded great but the image was a bit to present to my ears. This is why I think I would be unhappy with a system like that.

[Maron Horonzakz]

The JBL 2397 DSH wood horn is a well liked horn. And many on this forum have made them & discussed them on this forum. It is not a JBL design. But was designed by Bob H Smith (1949) University of Calif. Elect. Eng. I would put that unit up against any cone unit. Voight tracktrix designs are hard to beat sonicly None JBL but must be included. Lets not be narrow minded about them. Just to give a back handed swipe & say this is a Lansing Heritage site Would be a diservice. JBL was influenced by many others. The Hartsfield was influenced By Klipsch & Klipsch was influenced by Hartsfield Look at the Klipsch Jubilee.. Klipsch was influenced by Voight.. Horns vs Cones is a innocent subject But has a double edge blade.

[Titanium Dome]

All this dichotomizing is giving me a headache. :bash:

There are so many frickin' variables that no easy blanket statement is possible. One has to listen to as many as possible, then decide which systems are more pleasing.

Since I don't have a huge room or stadium to fill, I tend to feel that large horn-based systems are inappropriate for my environment. Yet, I'm keen to hear the horn-based Project Array, and I was stunned by the horn-based K2s.

The K2s are a magnitude better to me than any of the older horn systems, especially the monsters of the past which I would not want in my house. My hope is the less expensive Project Arrays will be nearly as good. My further hope is that the 60th Anniversary JBL will be remarkable and affordable (relatively speaking), whether it's horn-based or not.

Of course the bigger problem for some is that they can have only one or two systems and therefore must decide what they like and make a big commitment to that choice. I don't really have to choose; thus I have a boatload of JBLs, most purchased at bargain prices, all of which please me in some way.

NONE of them is perfect. As my mood changes, I can associate with the personality of the system that moves me at the time. Only the L250s and Performance Series continually rise to the top.

I admire someone who can decide that there is a certain best system or driver or configuration and spend his time and energy perfecting that preference. I'm too fickle, too adventurous, too excitable, and too demanding to be satisfied with any one solution, but I can be happy with a variety of solutions.

In fact, for me, I think the exploration is as much fun as the discovery. :bouncy:

[Free spirit]

Thanks for the link Dome I was searching last night LATE but who knows what I was searching for:dont-know I thought I was searching for horns but.....

Giskard I really want to hear the xxxxxx-xx when it is out as well. and thanks for your input as it is very similar to my views so far.

Hi,
I myself perfer cones, I find the sound deeper, richer and more defined. I have actually come on here to ask a question. I was wondering if u can recoil a Rola Celestion UL 10 mid range, or if not would u be able to give me some advice as to some-one who can
Yours Hopefully
Toni:p

[Titanium Dome]

Hi,
I myself perfer cones, I find the sound deeper, richer and more defined. I have actually come on here to ask a question. I was wondering if u can recoil a Rola Celestion UL 10 mid range, or if not would u be able to give me some advice as to some-one who can
Yours Hopefully
Toni:p

recoil = recone? refoam?

Having your location active in your avatar will help.

For example, if you lived in SoCal, I'd tell you to go here:

http://www.donramon1.com/contents5.htm

About halfway down on the left is the Celestion box, and it indicates a 10" recone is only $40 per speaker. That's a great price.

[Tom Brennan]

Well for you fellas that like cones there are always Bozaks. They seem pretty undervalued right now save for the CGs. I saw a pair of Symphonys (dual 12s, single 6" cone mid, 8-2" aluminum cone tweeter line array) go for only $250 on ebay, that's alot of speaker for the money.

I have a pair of the coaxials with the 12" woof and 2 splayed tweeters awaiting use. They may wait awhile.

[Titanium Dome]

Well for you fellas that like cones there are always Bozaks. They seem pretty undervalued right now save for the CGs. I saw a pair of Symphonys (dual 12s, single 6" cone mid, 8-2" aluminum cone tweeter line array) go for only $250 on ebay, that's alot of speaker for the money.

I have a pair of the coaxials with the 12" woof and 2 splayed tweeters awaiting use. They may wait awhile.

Tom lobs in another. :rotfl:

[4313B]

I have a pair of the coaxials with the 12" woof and 2 splayed tweeters awaiting use. They may wait awhile.No doubt. I had four of them. I never did care much for those things.

[Ian Mackenzie]

In my listening time (about 28 years) I still seem to think your (Giskard) first post in this thread was what I was looking for. I do like the sound of a well setup horn system but I am not sure if I could have them as my full time listening setup.
I was more leaning towards a system like a 4345 because of the design and the R&D that went in to this system.
The Avant Gardes that I listened to sounded great but the image was a bit to present to my ears. This is why I think I would be unhappy with a system like that.

I agree..there are certain practical considerations when you consider the size of a conical midrange horn like Steve Schell has discussed. This is where a dedicated hi sensitivity cone midrange when used in conjunction with horn system delivers the low distortion and compression that JBLs are known for. As has been discussed so many times on these boards its not what necessarily but how its done.

I would also point out that based on recent developments one horn type over another should not be written off when real advancements are made in the compression driver. A horn will of course only deliver what you put into it!

[Mr. Widget]

As has been discussed so many times on these boards its not what necessarily but how its done.Absolutely... that combined with our own personal bias, expectations, and ability to discern sonic differences... sometimes I read posts and wonder if the aesthetics or lack of them is driving people's opinions.


I would also point out that based on recent developments one horn type over another should not be written off when real advancements are made in the compression driver. A horn will of course only deliver what you put into it!I would suggest that the effects of compression drivers vs. horns is much like comparing the sonic effects of amplifiers vs. speakers. I am not thinking about the comparison in terms of function but rather their overall effect on the sound. While an amp will affect the sound of a system, the gross variations in a loudspeaker's ability or inability to convert electrical information into acoustic will have a more drastic impact on how a system sounds. The same is true with horns and compression drivers... differences in compression drivers while huge are an order of magnitude more subtle than trying different horns on a given set of drivers. The distortions, phase cancellations, and effects to overall frequency response are quite significant within the horn... while they may be thought of as a lens focusing the dispersion of sound within a room, they tend to be more like crude hand made lenses with all of the inherent inaccuracies they impose on the sound.


Widget

[Steve Gonzales]

Very interesting discussion. I'd hate to think that aesthetics played a part in a person's choice unless all other things were equal. Funny how sane people can even consider seriously debating the merits of cone vs. compression to the extent of absolutes. As stated earlier, even a good speaker of either type will be greatly affected by the source components and room acoustics. There is a thread on the board about trying to get a pair of 4435's and a B460 to sound right!. We have very polarized camps here and it is fun to discuss the merits of either side, but there should be no mention of Bozak in a serious one. I understand the joke though. I say "enjoy the journey" and I mean journey. Being skeptical about everything until my ears tell me it's right. I think that people get sidetracked with too much information and faith in a person(s) that seems to have all the answers. There is nothing wrong with having a Mentor, I've had the honor of being guided by several good people. Dave Brink has shown me by his own actions that hearing is believeing. Not just a one time glimpse, no, a process. That requires a baseline of information, gleened from trusted sources, but confirmed by personal experience. I can't imagine anyone expecting the final word about what they'll like ultimately from anyone other than themselves. This takes time and alot of effort. How bad do you want it?.

[4313B]

I'd hate to think that aesthetics played a part in a person's choice unless all other things were equal.I'm shallow. I like loudspeakers that can stand up to the light of day. ;) If they have a bunch of funky looking junk hanging here, there and everywhere I couldn't care less what they sound like because they'll never make it through the front door. No brown bags or American flags needed here! :rotfl:

[Steve Gonzales]

Yeah, you're about as shallow as the Marianna's Trench:D. You handled the Bozak joke pretty good too ;) .

[Tom Brennan]

"but there should be no mention of Bozak in a serious one. I understand the joke though."


I wasn't joking Gonzales, nor was I aware there should be no mention of Bozak speakers here. Are you sure there shouldn't?

[Steve Gonzales]

Tom lobs in another. :rotfl: What did you think this meant?

[Steve Gonzales]

"but there should be no mention of Bozak in a serious one. I understand the joke though."


I wasn't joking Gonzales, nor was I aware there should be no mention of Bozak speakers here. Are you sure there shouldn't? Well Brennan, if you haven't noticed, this is the JBL site. This thread is cone vs. horns. I have my own preference. That preference is JBL. If you seriously are trying convert anyone here to dump JBL and buy some Bozak's, maybe you should ask yourself if Bozak's are a viable option here?.;)

[Robh3606]

Well Brennan, if you haven't noticed, this is the JBL site. This thread is cone vs. horns. I have my own preference. That preference is JBL. If you seriously are trying convert anyone here to dump JBL and buy some Bozak's, maybe you should ask yourself if Bozak's are a viable option here?.;)

Actually I think he expects us to be opened minded and to look at any speaker offered as a suggestion to be just that. Nothing about conversion. Bozak's had some rather revolutionary driver designs well before his time. I wouldn't mind hearing a pair. May not be my cup of tea but worth a listen to see.

Rob:)

[Steve Gonzales]

Actually I think he expects us to be opened minded and to look at any speaker offered as a suggestion to be just that. Nothing about conversion. Bozak's had some rather revolutionary driver designs well before his time. I wouldn't mind hearing a pair. May not be my cup of tea but worth a listen to see.

Rob:) Okay Rob, fair enough. I think you have to read the statement in context. Can you picture yourself posting that statement about Bozak's?. Bozak's, as a viable option here is a joke to me when there are so many great direct radiator models from JBL to choose from. That is what I meant:) .

[Zilch]

Careful, now. :scold:

If you make Tom angry enough, he's liable to consider that licence to opine upon L220's.... :p

[Steve Gonzales]

Careful, now. :scold:

If you make Tom mad enough, he's liable to consider that licence to opine upon L220's.... :p You mean like: "Cut the tops off and make sub enclosures out of em'?. :p

[Steve Gonzales]

Hey Zilchster,

How about some "Down and dirty L220's?":bouncy:

[Steve Gonzales]

Hello Steve

Tom is from the HE forum at AA he was running Altec 605's for years. He's a hornie through and through. Not sure what he has now. I know who he is so I have an advantage to know where he is comming from. What's wrong with recommending another brand in a conversation about such a broad subject??? If we were in the Lansing Only forums I can see that but we are in an open forum here. Look I am biased as well but you still need to see what else there is. Why pigeon hole yourself there is too much out there to just ignore it all.

PS If I have the wrong guy I disavow all knowledge of this post and my computer will explode.

Rob:) I think you read too much into what I say. I didn't say not to mention Bozak's at all. I said ---In my opinion---, that they are not a viable option here, on the Lansing site. I think I am entitled to my opinion and shouldn't have to keep explaining myself to exactly align with yours. I am openminded.

[Robh3606]

I think you read too much into what I say. I didn't say not to mention Bozak's at all. I said ---In my opinion---, that they are not a viable option here, on the Lansing site. I think I am entitled to my opinion and shouldn't have to keep explaining myself to exactly align with yours. I am openminded.

Fair enough.

Rob:)

[Steve Gonzales]

Thanks Rob:)

[Tom Brennan]

"In my opinion---, that they are not a viable option here, on the Lansing site."

So just how do you know what's a viable option here Gonzales? Do you speak for everyone?

For instance I've been a horny for over 35 years and I've an interest in Bozak. I now own 3 sets of Altecs (890C Boleros, 605As, Heathkit AS-21s) and have a set of A7-500s coming soon to boot. In the past I've owned A7s, A5s and various JBLs, EVs and Klipsches too. So if a fella like me can be interested in Bozak it seems somewhat viable.

Especially given a discusion of direct-radiators vs. horns. Bozaks ARE a reasonable option for those keen on direct-radiators. I wasn't out to start a debate but merely mentioned some nice (IMO) DRs that are going for reasonable prices.

[Steve Gonzales]

"In my opinion---, that they are not a viable option here, on the Lansing site."

So just how do you know what's a viable option here Gonzales? Do you speak for everyone?

For instance I've been a horny for over 35 years and I've an interest in Bozak. I now own 3 sets of Altecs (890C Boleros, 605As, Heathkit AS-21s) and have a set of A7-500s coming soon to boot. In the past I've owned A7s, A5s and various JBLs, EVs and Klipsches too. So if I'm interested in Bozak it seems somewhat viable.

Especially in a discusion of direct-radiators vs. horns. Bozaks ARE a reasonable option for those keen on direct-radiators. I wasn't out to start a debate but merely mentioned some nice (IMO) DRs that are going for reasonable prices. I've hit a nerve with you Brennan and it shows. I re-read the posts and think you're trying to provoke something that you're not going to get from me. I never claimed to know everyone's personal opinion here and when I said "In my opinion", that should be a clue to exactly that, it's just my opinion based on a couple of years on this site. I'm not a kid, I've been around for almost a half of a century and if there is one thing I've learned, is that if I've offended someone and it gets out of hand, apologize, so, Tom Brennan, I apologize.

[Tom Brennan]

By the way IMO the L-220 was a terrible speaker, sort of an AR-3 on steroids. The speaker managed the constipated sound of ARs with the worst of brash JBL highs AND a muffled midrange to boot. Such a combination of woes in a single speaker using such high-quality parts must have taken an incredible perversity of talent.

I was given four of them. I gave two to the guy that supplied the pickup to haul them off. I ebayed the LE-5s and lenses, traded the cabinets for a pair of LE-175s, sent the passives to a guy in Norway for experimentation and threw the LE-14s in the Illinois River to serve as Carp habitat. I kept the tweeters for awhile and then sold them, made a pretty penny, sometimes I wish I'd kept them.

[Steve Gonzales]

By the way IMO the L-220 was a terrible speaker, sort of an AR-3 on steroids. The speaker managed the constipated sound of ARs with the worst of brash JBL highs AND a muffled midrange to boot. Such a combination of woes in a single speaker using such high-quality parts must have taken an incredible perversity of talent.

I was given four of them. I gave two to the guy that supplied the pickup to haul them off. I ebayed the LE-5s and lenses, traded the cabinets for a pair of LE-175s, sent the passives to a guy in Norway for experimentation and threw the LE-14s in the Illinois River to serve as Carp habitat. I kept the tweeters for awhile and then sold them, made a pretty penny, sometimes I wish I'd kept them. I've ditched the LE5-9's and installed 2441's on 2397 Smithhorns and the 4333's 2312/2420 combo and a pair of 800hz McCauley elliptical mouth horns with LE85's and TRIamped them. They have become a very nice sounding speaker.

[hapy._.face]

It just proves that you can make anything sound better with effort. It reminds me of the time I put double hum' hotrails in every position in a Strat' just to watch the wall come down when I hit an open chord.
How's that VTL treating you, Steve? ;)

[Steve Gonzales]

It's taken a lot of time but it is worth the effort. The VTL is a dream come true!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Some of the larger Bozaks like those with four 12 inch woofers, 4 mid cones and 8 tweeters would have been an impressive all cone system in their day.

There was a small time speaker builder in South Australia building systems on a similar concept in that he used something like four 8 inch woofers, eight 5 inch mid cones and an array of tweeters all time aligned.

I heard them go at a club demo and net result was quite a sensitive system with very low distortion much like a horn system

[norealtalent]

I have a friend in Connecticut with L220's and symphony grands in the same room, powered with the same equipment. The grand's components are above average quality for their era. They have cast baskets and large magnets, although the VC tolerences are very wide. The non serviceable tweeter design is limited by the degradation of the dampening material sandwiched between the cone and sealed basket, rendering them absolutely useless over time. The crossovers use large coils and caps. The large cabs provide the ability to produce substantial bass, although I've yet to experience any from them. Keeping in mind that I am a Smith horn lover and most certainly NOT an advocate of stock L220's, still, the grands cannot begin to compare in sound quality, longevity or financial appreciation.


By the way IMO the L-220 was a terrible speaker, sort of an AR-3 on steroids. The speaker managed the constipated sound of ARs with the worst of brash JBL highs AND a muffled midrange to boot. Such a combination of woes in a single speaker using such high-quality parts must have taken an incredible perversity of talent.

I was given four of them. I gave two to the guy that supplied the pickup to haul them off. I ebayed the LE-5s and lenses, traded the cabinets for a pair of LE-175s, sent the passives to a guy in Norway for experimentation and threw the LE-14s in the Illinois River to serve as Carp habitat. I kept the tweeters for awhile and then sold them, made a pretty penny, sometimes I wish I'd kept them.

Firsthand account from a bozak lover...must be why they're out of business...go figure.

[Tom Brennan]

" still, the grands cannot begin to compare in sound quality, longevity or financial appreciation. "

Personal preference as to what sounds good aside I recently saw a pair of CGs go for $2500 on ebay, not bad.


"Firsthand account from a bozak lover...must be why they're out of business...go figure."

It should be apparent that I'm an Altec enthusiast not a Bozak lover. Your line of reasoning implies that Altec and Stephens must have been bad and Bose the bee's knees, afterall Bose is still in business.

Of course if you prefer Bose I won't dispute your preference.

[hapy._.face]

Bose is 'better products through marketing'. One guess as to which company (of all those previously discussed) has the most successful advertising campaign…….I wonder why they are still around... ?

There are other reasons. Bose has a niche market. The wave radio is designed to be small, aesthetically appealing (to the target market), user friendly, and produce as much fake bass the little folded plastic horn box will allow. It succeeds on all accounts. It's also highly marketed. Again: successful. Do you really think Bose intended it to compete with a 4345?

It's funny how we so violently defend products (or brands) and point out the relative nature of performance- yet (in the same breath) dismiss and disregard other brands and products while not considering the relative (idiosyncratic) nature of their intended performance(s).

Ian stated- 'in their day', which to me- shows that he is at least considering the variables before completely offing them.

Going on and on about why the L220's suck to high heaven appears somewhat nearsighted. Sure, L220's need help to get them to perform at proper levels- but it can be done. Steve clearly proved it. Taking in the "stock vs modified" variable is but one of the many to consider before making such harsh judgments.

I'm getting burned out on the silly loops this forum runs- You must (first) consider what the product was designed to do. No point in bitching about what a lousy wrench a screwdriver makes.

[norealtalent]

...Of course if you prefer Bose I won't dispute your preference.

Now that you mention it Tom, I do prefer bose but I thought we were talking about speakers not the best cat scratching posts. ;)





... No point in bitching about what a lousy wrench a screwdriver makes.


Now that folks, IS the quote of the week!:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

[Maron Horonzakz]

Or cut the tops off a 250. ;)

[louped garouv]

must be why they're out of business...go figure.

my understanding is that the Bozak company went under due to the martial problems that Mr. Rudy was having with his wife. Rather than let her have any of it, sink the ship....

I don't have any Bozak speakers, but have had several of their Preamps and amps -- That company made very, very good sounding electronics.

the CMA 10 2DL (and all of it's variations) are highly sought after components.... I would say that the Bozak's reputation is better than the venerable UREI 1620 or 1620LE that soundcraft just reissued; at least in the "hi-fi clubsound" world

people treat these pieces almost like they are sacred... This particular preamp/mixer has been heavily modified...

[JuniorJBL]

I stated at the first of this thread that I thought it should stay JBL. So that should be a good enough reason to keep it JBL. This really should not be a bashing of speakers just what your thoughts were on JBL cones vs horns.

I wanted to find what was the best MIX per say.

[4313B]

I stated at the first of this thread that I thought it should stay JBL. So that should be a good enough reason to keep it JBL. This really should not be a bashing of speakers just what your thoughts were on JBL cones vs horns.

I wanted to find what was the best MIX per say.
So please just keep it to the topic;)Fine!
All I have to say then is sell all your legacy stuff right now and have at least $60,000 to spend on JBL loudspeakers by year end. That'll get you set up with the right mix of cones and horns. Fair enough?

[Tom Brennan]

Junior---One can't start a thread and then police it or expect it to stay confined to your narrow notions of what it should be.

It's called conversation Junior. One never knows where it'll go. That's why it's sometimes interesting.

[louped garouv]

Fine!
....sell all your legacy stuff right now and have at least $60,000 to spend on JBL loudspeakers by year end....


more like sell the houses, the cars, and the wife.... then buy all new JBLs


are they going to be weather resistant?

[JuniorJBL]

Junior---One can't start a thread and then police it or expect it to stay confined to your narrow notions of what it should be.

It's called conversation Junior. One never knows where it'll go. That's why it's sometimes interesting.

All I asked was for this thread to contain discussion about JBL cones and horns. Yes we do have conversation but to just go way off topic about other speakers when this is the Lansing Heritage site seems well out of taste. I have listened to many speakers and I have come here knowing that it was a JBL site. If I want to discuss my B&W's I can go to a different forum. All I am saying was It was stated at the first to please keep it to JBL. Yes it can be interesting and I do not mind chit chat it can be fun. I thought Bozak to be way out there.:p If you have owned so many JBL's and Altec's post your thoughts about them.:D I also understand refs to other speakers but I personally do not want to compare to something I may never be able to hear. I am not trying to start a riot here just trying to keep it JBL as the site suggests. Sorry if I have upset anyone here.:slink:

Giskard
So that will be about the price of the new system. Is this just L&R mains or is this a full 7.1 system?:bouncy:

[norealtalent]

...and my cats would appreciate if their scratching posts were left out of it too...:p

[4313B]

Is this just L&R mainsYes.

[Titanium Dome]

Junior---One can't start a thread and then police it or expect it to stay confined to your narrow notions of what it should be.

It's called conversation Junior. One never knows where it'll go. That's why it's sometimes interesting.

It would be unreasonable for you to expect anyone to respect your explicit request made in the first post and then reiterated politely later. That would require consideration, tact, and manners, none of which were required character traits when I signed up. I won't have it!

These cone/horn things always end up in a mess, don't they? :rotfl:

[Ken Pachkowsky]

In fact, for me, I think the exploration is as much fun as the discovery. :bouncy:

Now, thats worth quoting!

Ken

[Ian Mackenzie]

I would like to hear what people have to say about horns vs dome/cone speaker systems.
Please do not get into a debate about what YOU think is best just your opinions.
I would also like to know the details about what you hear in the speaker system imaging sound stage and the likes.
I have only had dome/cone speakers and I am wondering what people think.
Please keep this to a low roar as I know this can be a big debate.
Also keep this to JBL horns and cones ONLY!!;)

PS: Moderators if this should be in the General forum please move there (it most likely should, sorry)

About time this thread was closed.

[Zilch]

I've ditched the LE5-9's and installed 2441's on 2397 Smithhorns and the 4333's 2312/2420 combo and a pair of 800hz McCauley elliptical mouth horns with LE85's and TRIamped them. They have become a very nice sounding speaker.What's doin' the UHF, the 2441's or the LE85's, then?


About time this thread was closed.Naw, Tom was on topic. Horns vs. cones. Tom's an avowed horn guy, and merely suggested that cone people might consider Bozak for quality, bargain cones. :D

[JuniorJBL]

About time this thread was closed.

Maybe it should be. I am sorry to all those who posted here and who were having a good time. I was having a good time as well. But it does seem a little rash to start bashing someone else's JBL's just because you may not like them yourself. ;)

[Zilch]

But it does seem a little rash to start bashing someone else's JBL's just because you may not like them yourself. ;)Well, there's surprising agreement expressed here regarding L220's, in fact, if that's what you mean....

[Steve Gonzales]

Well, there's surprising agreement expressed here regarding L220's, in fact, if that's what you mean.... I don't think replacing the mid's and electronically crossing them over is in agreement with giving them away, parting them out and throwing the rest in the river, if that's what you mean?. :blink: Oh yeah, I replaced the grill cloth with the OEM monitor blue I found too.

[hapy._.face]

These cone/horn things always end up in a mess, don't they? :rotfl:

lol- yeah, at least this time it isn't you that started the mess! :p It always gets a rise...an easy button to push, I guess. ...kinda like the guy who joins the forum to trash talk JBL. :thnkfast:



P.S. :die: PURGE!!

[Ian Mackenzie]

Perhap Junior shoud be more specific.

I mean the XP series with their dome Ti drivers could hardly be called Cone (or all Cone ) system.

The same applies to the L220 (was it that model) as it used a waveguide on the mid range driver and the fish eye ring radiator.

Then there are the whole Ti series with Ti diome tweeters.
As it stands only my L100 could be called a true cone system.

If I was asked what I prefer, I would have to say that's a hard call unless every Ti model was treated with an acquaplas coating, in fact acquaplas everything or it just ain't Hifi by current JBL standards.

Perhaps this is why some prefer the golden oldie cone direct radiators.

[JuniorJBL]

Ian

That is very interesting that you say that. I never really thought about it that way. That is why I said "lets keep it to JBL".

I would like to build a system sometime with what might be the best combo from JBL that I can afford. It also has most likely been built. So it would be a fault of mine that I did not state this first.

I was truly interested in the difference between the JBL studio monitors that used "horns" (could be a lens or other) mixed with DR's and how this impacted the sound vs just direct radiators. As far as Ti's I would have called them DR's.

I really should have called this thread "JBL cones vs JBL direct radiators"
Maybe a moderator could rename this for me!:)

My apologies to those whom I have misled.

One other question I do have is what is "IT" that people prefer about the Smith Horn?

Once again I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Tom Brennan]

Junior-----Smith horns (IME&O) have wide dispersion and a smooth sound. I used DIY Smiths from the old 1950s magazine article with 2426 drivers. Nice.

[norealtalent]

...One other question I do have is what is "IT" that people prefer about the Smith Horn?...

Have you ever had someone use the word "buttery" to describe audio? I have to laugh everytime I hear it. What does "buttery" sound like? For me, using words to describe ANYTHING audio is futile at best. I'll use colors as an example; it's blue, no it's teal, no its navy, no it's green, no it's..."buttery." You get the idea. Personal experience is the only option because that is what life is about, the experience. Every experience is in relation to our other experiences. I can tell you what a rose looks like, smells like, tastes like, feels like but until you experience those things for yourself, you haven't a clue, and my experience of that same rose could be quite different from yours. How can I put such a wonderful experience into words? I can't...:)

[Tom Brennan]

"How can I put such a wonderful experience into words? I can't..."

You used enough words saying so.

[norealtalent]

"How can I put such a wonderful experience into words? I can't..."

You used enough words saying so.

That was real intelligent. Will you ever grow up?

[hapy._.face]

Smith horns have an uncanny ability to stir emotions- which is probably why they have such a cult following. It's somewhat universal. I've never heard of anyone that listened to a smith horn (properly set up) and walk away with less than great things to say about them.

My wife normally doesn't get into my audio hobby at all. However, last night I was listening to Joshua Redman on my new 2397 smith rig when she motioned for my attention...


"Are you going to be listening to your music much longer?" she asked
"...Oh about another 30 mins or so. Doesn't it sound great!?"
"Sure. It sounds better than the boombox in the basement, but I don't know what all the buzz is about; It sounds just like all the other stereo stuff you've had." She added.

I looked at her and gave a full bellied laugh.

"You have no idea!" I said. "Tell you what- go pick your favorite CD out and let me play a few tracks for you. You can even sit in the chair".

She agreed.

An hour later- I coudn't get her to leave (which is a good thing ;) ). When she heard her favorite songs- she instantly became covered in goosebumps and on one particular song- she cried a bit. All she could say was 'wow' and 'oh my'. She gave me a hug and said, "OK- I get it now."

[Maron Horonzakz]

Smith horns? I have 3 pr....Large, medium, & small. The JBL 2397 is the medium size. All the Smith horns sound sweet with out any harshness. :D

[norealtalent]

Smith horns? I have 3 pr....Large, medium, & small. The JBL 2397 is the medium size. All the Smith horns sound sweet with out any harshness. :D

:useless:

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian

That is very interesting that you say that. I never really thought about it that way. That is why I said "lets keep it to JBL".

I would like to build a system sometime with what might be the best combo from JBL that I can afford. It also has most likely been built. So it would be a fault of mine that I did not state this first.

I was truly interested in the difference between the JBL studio monitors that used "horns" (could be a lens or other) mixed with DR's and how this impacted the sound vs just direct radiators. As far as Ti's I would have called them DR's.

I really should have called this thread "JBL cones vs JBL direct radiators"
Maybe a moderator could rename this for me!:)

My apologies to those whom I have misled.

One other question I do have is what is "IT" that people prefer about the Smith Horn?

Once again I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

Assuming the compression drivers had the same tonality as direct radiators the difference is in the dispersion factors of the horns(at least at low levels) and this a key advantage of horns. ie they can minimise floor and ceiling reflections and control side wall reflections so you hear a controlled amount of direct versus reverberant sound from your room. With a direct radiator system you just can't do that, the MTM tries but laterally the same issue exists.

At higher drive levels the horn system wins out in dynamics and power compression.

If you can find a JBL horn system (or cone+ horn system) with acquaplas coated diaphragms its is unlikely that you will concern yourself with this issue..period.

The new JBL Be drivers go one better but that is another story. I am inclined to think that some degree of contolled dispersion is a good thing in most domestic listening hence the newer crop of JBLs make a feature of contolled dispersion. Bose freaks will of course disagree

I like the Smith horn but I am inclined to think that its wide span of dispersion and resulting reverberant field softens the relative harshness of what might be refered to as most compression drivers.

If you like what it does to your compression drivers then that is agood thing.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Smith horns? I have 3 pr....Large, medium, & small. The JBL 2397 is the medium size. All the Smith horns sound sweet with out any harshness. :D

Pappa bear, Momma bear and Baby bear:bouncy: :banana:

[Maron Horonzakz]

Why show Pictures!!!!!! they would look the same size on this screen;) Ive been useing Smith horns since the mid 60,s Once in awhile i drift into other JBL horns but always come back on my knees asking forgiveness:p

[norealtalent]

...Ive been using Smith horns since the mid 60,s Once in awhile i drift into other JBL horns but always come back on my knees asking forgiveness:p

You're only human...:thmbsup: :yes: :thmbsup:

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks for all of your great input!!:bouncy:
This is what I was really looking for. Once again I should have been more clear about what I was looking for when I started this thread.:bash:

Please carry on.:slink:

[hapy._.face]

Ian,

That was very well stated. I liked it. :thmbsup:

[hapy._.face]

That was real intelligent. Will you ever grow up?


...to 'be a kid', right? :p

[Rudy Kleimann]

You lucky DOG!





--snip--

I looked at her and gave a full bellied laugh.

"You have no idea!" I said. "Tell you what- go pick your favorite CD out and let me play a few tracks for you. You can even sit in the chair".

She agreed.

An hour later- I coudn't get her to leave (which is a good thing ;) ). When she heard her favorite songs- she instantly became covered in goosebumps and on one particular song- she cried a bit. All she could say was 'wow' and 'oh my'. She gave me a hug and said, "OK- I get it now."

[Ian Mackenzie]

Thanks for all of your great input!!:bouncy:
This is what I was really looking for. Once again I should have been more clear about what I was looking for when I started this thread.:bash:

Please carry on.:slink:

Ah don't worry.

I am sending you a bill in the mail..no good advice is fee you know! I usually charge by the Slab (of Fosters) but given the distances you are forgiven..this time..stubble cooler would be nice.

[hapy._.face]

She got it!! You lucky DOG!

Yep! I'm smiling a big smith horn smile (see avatar).

Now I can ease her into that Pass Labs Aleph to drive the lows- Oh and the pair of Aronov monoblocs I been eyeing up.....and some room treatments. Did I mention my rega planet bit the dust? Gonna need a new source component. My turntable needs a new cart- maybe the Sumiko Blackbird...yeah!! That's about it for the minute....I'm sure she will understand because 'she gets it' now. :p

[JuniorJBL]

Ah don't worry.

I am sending you a bill in the mail..no good advice is fee you know! I usually charge by the Slab (of Fosters) but given the distances you are forgiven..this time..stubble cooler would be nice.

I should be good for that soon!!
My wife is from Australia and we will be going on vacation to there in a year or so. So I plan to give you a shout when I am going to be there. We will probably stay for about 2 weeks then go see some of her other relatives in New Zealand.

So Fosters it is!!:D

[louped garouv]

I didn't think many Aussies actually drank Fosters..... thought/had heard that it was more of an export product... :blah: