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Don McRitchie
02-24-2006, 09:42 AM
This post is in response to the now closed “Lansing? Audio? Off Topic???” thread. This post is unique in that it has a homework assignment. Everyone reading this post is expected to read the following:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb06/egos.html

I post this because the above closed thread is the single greatest example that I can think of on this forum of an innocent thought being wildly misconstrued. This article focuses mainly on the responsibility of writers to ensure that they detach themselves from their own personally centered perspective. However, in a forum which consists of a community of members interacting, it is equally important that the readers detach themselves from their self centered environment.

The thread in question started with just a simple observation that maybe we should consider (not demand, insist or require – but consider) that we look at increasing the signal to noise ratio on this forum. To me, this is nothing controversial. I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t recognize that high noise levels on any forum will eventually degrade its utility and value to the point that participation can be perceived as more trouble than it is worth. No one has said that we have reached that point or are even anywhere near it. There was just a request that we might want to step back and ensure that we weren’t on the path of increasing noise levels.

Many of the responses that I saw, not only completely missed this point, but also saw signs of ulterior motives and conspiracies that were nowhere in evidence. Some have seen this as an attempt to censor the forum. Others have seen this as an attempt for a few privileged members to control the forum in a manner that excludes equal participation by the members at large. Not only was none of this ever intended, it was explicitly stated by the thread’s originator that he was against such outcomes. Nonetheless, the misconceptions have taken on a life of their own.

Like the thread title says, I would ask that everyone take this opportunity to chill out and think about what was actually requested in the first place. The problem of increasing noise level is real and irrational reactions are only making the problem worse. I’m not saying that we have to do anything different or make any changes to the forum operation. But could we at least talk about it rationally to see if there might be some common ground on improving the forum experience for the majority of our members?

4313B
02-24-2006, 09:54 AM
Thanks Don! Good stuff as usual.


I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t recognize that high noise levels on any forum will eventually degrade its utility and value to the point that participation can be perceived as more trouble than it is worth.It really has become more trouble than it's worth. I posted that early last year. It's easier to delete than explain. It's easier, and far more enjoyable, to just do all this by phone or VoIP. Have your people call my people and we'll do lunch. :p

***

"E-mail is fine if you just want to communicate content, but not any emotional material,"

And we all know how emotional we are about Altec and JBL. I've heard "rabid" and "fanatical" used in describing the membership of this forum by "outsiders". :p

"You know, I could have said that same thing to you in an e-mail, but you might not have detected the degree of enthusiasm in my voice!"

Bingo!

Mr. Widget
02-24-2006, 10:32 AM
Thanks Don.

How do you always manage to get the tone just right...?

Widget

Robh3606
02-24-2006, 10:40 AM
Hello Don

Good to see you, great post.

Thanks Rob:)

kingjames
02-24-2006, 10:42 AM
very good read and, has made be stop,look and listen.:barf:

Rolf
02-24-2006, 11:07 AM
Hi Don, and you all.

I was the first to reply to Mr. Widgets post on the now closed thread. I find myself quite able to understand the language here on the forum, but of course it would have been much easier for me to reply in my language, as there are so many ways of understanding the American way of telling things.

The response on my input was as usual not in others comment. What does that mean? Is it that I am "way out if line"? or is it that I am so right that it does not need any comment?. I really want to know, because it will matter to me for further posts.

It really make me sad to read the closed thread and understand what was the real point from Widget, and not to be able to post a reply to clarify what I really mean because the thread is closed, and I can't express it good in American language. I try to, but feel I don't get through.

The reason I does try is because I really "feel at home" here on the forum. As I have pointed out before I am not a technical guy, but I bet you a big $$ that my experience doing listening is way above all that technical know-how...and sound is: how it is suppose to/not suppose to be... that is what it is all about. .is it not?

At the end I like to point out (again) that a thread should not be closed. It will die out by itself, as people will stop posting in it. This is a sort of censorship i do not like. People will quit this forum one by one if this will proceed, and what will be left then?

Rolf

4313B
02-24-2006, 11:25 AM
Thanks Don.

How do you always manage to get the tone just right...?

WidgetIt's a skill I greatly admire.

Ian Mackenzie
02-24-2006, 01:31 PM
The level of literacy and reasoning of the forums is not of what one might call a high standard.

The term Yabbafest comes to mind.

I still think we should trial a forum call the tea room......

People reason, think and behave through association with what they value and who they are..... that's why they spout off.

We just need a means on controlling and influencing where and when they do this ..basic advertising theory.

I don't think the Off Topic forum really sells or appeals to anyone or anything..it does not encourage a response..people see it as the dumpster for all other. The problem is not everything off topic is useless information in context with the forums.

We need a place where members can gas bag

sincerely

Ian

EDIT: As noted above by Don and discussed privately elsewhere....with this media..a one way discussion ..its very probably that the reader will miss the point of a poster entirely sometimes unless he has 6th sense as noted below.

I do it, everyone does it at times...we like to chat on the side and have fun ..I was not single out North America...it is a global forum in case you had not noticed. I regulary skim the forums and subscribe to a dozen threads or more.......statistically I am right.

The issue and point is ask yourself this . Why do you reply to a post or a thread? Because you can contribute and bring something new or missed or to help the poster. Or do you just like to post just for your own selfish reasons.

We all know what the problems are .......how about posting some solutions..that was my intent!

Edge I often post at 4.00 am in the morning in pitch black so as to fit in with your time zone on some discussions....forgive my keyboard skills......I will not do so in future. You need to taken everything said here with a grain of salt and have a thick skin!

The fine print :I am also prone to exageration and generalisations

johnaec
02-24-2006, 02:52 PM
Sheesh, you guys - can't ya' do like Don says and chill out??

I think this whole thing is blown way out of proportion. Virtually every website I visit has an Off Topic forum, whether it's called Anything Goes, The Basement, or whatever, for talking about anything you want, as long as it's not flaming, too dirty, ridiculing, etc. They're for keeping this "off topic" stuff that people want to talk about out of specific "subject" forums, so people can easily ignore them if they want.

If someone starts posting stupid stuff, ignore it, and the thread soon dies. But if you keep the replies coming, you're basically condoning/accepting whatever behavior is being presented. If it's too far off base, moderators will eventually delete it.

So there've been some goofy posts here - just ignore them. But to have everyone at each other's throats about something so insignificant seems patently ridiculous to me... What's the big dang deal? :dont-know

EDIT: I see one or more previous messages have been deleted, so my first line seems somewhat out of place. I hate when that happens...

John

4313B
02-24-2006, 03:07 PM
There really isn't any big deal at all John. We're just thinking up things to post while we are waiting for hard drives to format and the hot water for tea to boil. We aren't paying for the storage or bandwidth for this site so post away. I don't care if it takes anyone ten extra minutes to slog through a thread to find something of value to them. That's their problem.

Ian Mackenzie
02-24-2006, 03:13 PM
Exactly..I often post between solder joints to give my eyes a rest..time I got some spec's!

Muhhahaah.......Who said I was no longer a moderator..I still have moderation rights on Forum issues.

I'm just having a joke..I'll edit my profile at some point..

Titanium Dome
02-24-2006, 03:35 PM
Some of thse same issues were broached here, so I resubmit the thread for your consideration.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8933

sonofagun
02-24-2006, 05:20 PM
I have just tried to follow what this is all about and am just completelylostandihaveasplittingheadake!!!!!!!!!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAAEEEEIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!


Wait a minute! Let's just blame it all on Al Queda! :blink:

Robh3606
02-24-2006, 05:31 PM
This really is not the best way to discuss things. If we could all meet at the local pub it would be much more productive. Unfortunately we can't. One of the frustrations of the internet.

Rob:)

edgewound
02-24-2006, 06:03 PM
EDIT: I see one or more previous messages have been deleted, so my first line seems somewhat out of place. I hate when that happens...

John

Yeah...I deleted a couple of posts...to save space and maintain global harmony.:) ;)

Sorry to goof you up, John:o: .

JuniorJBL
02-24-2006, 06:12 PM
This really is not the best way to discuss things. If we could all meet at the local pub it would be much more productive. Unfortunately we can't. One of the frustrations of the internet.

Rob:)

You are in NY and I in Denver but I would still make an effort to meet at some pub somewhere!!;)
This just happens to be a place (LHF) I want to be and it looks like others do too, or they would be elsewhere!

hapy._.face
02-24-2006, 06:21 PM
Many of the responses that I saw, not only completely missed this point, but also saw signs of ulterior motives and conspiracies that were nowhere in evidence.

In my case- the evidence was deleted before others had a chance to read it.

When carefully articulated, all actions can be explained away. I am careful to grasp the intent of text, and when the intentions are clearly negative and personal- I gotta problem with that. I would never take an offensive position against anyone; I think it's absurd!! I'm a very peaceful person. I do, however, exercise the right to defend my position when I think I'm under fire. Taken out of context- a fraction of this information can be misinterpreted by outsiders.

Remember: The relationship that exists between certain forum members can be based on something not in the threads. A bias opinion of each other can dictate the nature of replies between the two- much to the confusion of others.


I agree with the whole- 'pub' theory. I think it's dead on. If we could all see each other, shake hands, and have a few pints- it would change everything. I mean, how could anyone that loves music and this site be that much of an a-hole??

mech986
02-24-2006, 06:24 PM
This really is not the best way to discuss things. If we could all meet at the local pub it would be much more productive. Unfortunately we can't. One of the frustrations of the internet.

Rob:)

Perhaps it would be better if we all had a few drinks and were warmed up before we started posting? :cheers: :spin:

On second thought, it might get ugly really quick! :barf: :blink:

Honestly though, I bet we'd all have a great time in a social setting, we'd then break off into the smaller groups to discuss what we are into, hopefully without the grey smoke haze!

Regards,

Bart

sonofagun
02-24-2006, 06:52 PM
This really is not the best way to discuss things. If we could all meet at the local pub* it would be much more productive. Unfortunately we can't. One of the frustrations of the internet.

Rob:)

"In the year 2106..." we'll be able to...

(and I mean in Cyber Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!!!!)

*Anytime anybody wants to visit me here in Evart, there's a local pub that has the most awesome micro-brew on tap!!!! :applaud:

Ian Mackenzie
02-24-2006, 07:14 PM
This really is not the best way to discuss things. If we could all meet at the local pub it would be much more productive. Unfortunately we can't. One of the frustrations of the internet.

Rob:)

Muhhhahah,

Rob,

Are you sure that is a good ideal.

The last time we met at the local Pub (Midtown NY May 2004) you declared everyone should be Sacked.........:rotfl:

Mackabags

Don't you dare post a pic of me Boozed

Robh3606
02-24-2006, 08:36 PM
Better watch it buddy I have one in your favorite shirt.

Hey Bo where are Yah!

Ian Mackenzie
02-24-2006, 09:10 PM
At least my jeans not so grungy there!

Ian Mackenzie
02-24-2006, 09:14 PM
Prefer Lobster do ya!

I have a shot is anyone cares?

4313B
02-25-2006, 07:26 AM
This really is not the best way to discuss things. If we could all meet at the local pub it would be much more productive. Unfortunately we can't. One of the frustrations of the internet.

Rob:)Once again you nailed it square on the head.
I'm told that my frustration with this forum medium is near legendary.

BTW - You'll NEVER get my picture Ian :rotfl: I've thought about posting it in private, my wife's too, but she says "Abolutely, positively NO WAY do I ever want my picture on the Internet!" Bo was pretty brave, the first picture he posted of himself was "interesting". I laughed so damn hard I hurt for days. Then I felt bad for laughing.

I was really shocked when I saw G.T.'s picture show up on eBay! It just never would have occured to me. That picture Don posted is buried somewhere deep in the forum too so it had to be someone from this forum.

hapy._.face
02-25-2006, 07:59 AM
Cool! Preconceptions are odd little things, aren't they?
So the guy at the bar: Ian? And the 2nd pic: Bo? I'm confused....

I think I'll post a pic of myself later today. :)

4313B
02-25-2006, 08:14 AM
I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t recognize that high noise levels on any forum will eventually degrade its utility and value to the point that participation can be perceived as more trouble than it is worth.I keep coming back to this... I was away from the forum for something like 10 hours and when I came back there were 27 threads to look through. I'm getting to where I was a year ago although not quite as frustrated this time. I know some people think I'm just a forum junkie and that I have nothing better to do with my time - their gross misconception is fine. I'm certainly not going to take the time to school them about the reality of the situation. I find that I simply don't have time for this anymore. And that means a whole lot of backend input from the folks at JBL just isn't going to happen unless, for some reason, all of them become more directly involved which I highly doubt will happen; At least until they retire, they might want to do other things then though. :p I cannot stress enough, the shear volume of support Harman has graciously given to this site through so many people over the past five years and I have sincerely enjoyed that aspect of it - how thoroughly tickled certain members got when they received "personal attention" with respect to their issues.

I simply can't keep up (and I suspect this website is going to grow by another degree in the coming months). I'm sorry.

I want to spend more time away from this, finish Project May, finish some other projects people have been waiting for, work on some backend projects for the website. The forums themselves just aren't getting anywhere and the information has either been lost or buried. Fortunately it's all still in my head and a few forum members have commited it to theirs as well ;) It's time to wear the Giskard hat a bit less and a few other hats a bit more. The Giskard gig is, and has been, downright exhausting. I'm not going to "freak out" like second quarter of last year. All I'm saying is I have to back off of this, Giskard will be around less, and there will be a few ramifications to that. Issues will be missed and fall through the cracks. Heck, I've noticed that's already been happening on a fairly large scale. It's unavoidable. Things change.

There really is no reason to respond to this post. It is a statement of the situation that really doesn't require any kind of feedback.

norealtalent
02-25-2006, 08:24 AM
Thank you, Friend. Your explanation is generous and your reasoning understandable but if you delete it so my post looks foolish...banishment! I've never been able to figure out why you dedicated sooooo much energy here, not that we aren't worth it, but...:bouncy:

Ian Mackenzie
02-25-2006, 08:33 AM
Cool! Preconceptions are odd little things, aren't they?
So the guy at the bar: Ian? And the 2nd pic: Bo? I'm confused....

I think I'll post a pic of myself later today. :)

No, the first pic The forum Mafia Godfather..Roberto De Hamellario.

That Love nuts underneath is some wacka from downunder.

Don't post your pic here, I only did it to illustrate the Pub thing.

Please post your pic on off topic (everyone will want to)

boputnam
02-26-2006, 01:05 AM
Bo was pretty brave, the first picture he posted of himself was "interesting". I laughed so damn hard I hurt for days. Then I felt bad for laughing.What...?

I have a great smile...:p

boputnam
02-26-2006, 01:29 AM
I simply can't keep up (and I suspect this website is going to grow by another degree in the coming months). I'm sorry.Nor can I, and I too am sorry - but not that anyone loses anything by my limited speaker building / engineering experience being offline, but I miss the camaraderie - the learning.

But, in the past two-years, strangely coincidently, my FOH engineering opportunities and experience has evolved and exploded. I've toiled at this for over 30-years, and finally this passion has found wonderfully fertile ground. I now spend all my spare time trialing new mics, cabinets, DSP's, EQ's, comp/limiters, re-cabling, running Smaart, and re-racking and gigging. I've got bands that request me to work with them. I'm slowly garnering the recognitions needed to get some great jobs, and work with some significant acts. I've gotten to work with, and personally know, GREAT guys from Ultrasound, and Sound on Stage, and others. This is not a career for me, but an incredibly consuming hobby - and it has sucked me away from this site. But, I am a lucky dood...

I feel bad about the absence, but when I login and look around, there are SO many new threads and so many responses. Most of it doesn't need my input (most of it doesn't need anyone's input...) And, if I do "reply" I likely won't be there to re-reply - I'll be gigging somewhere... So, I just read and leave it all alone.

It is too bad so many feel so compelled to be a part of every "conversation". It is not necessary and it decreases the S/N ratio materially, diluting the impact of what could be - just my opinion. So, I try and not be dilutive. I try and be only additive, and at times, humourously combative. But that gets me into trouble...

Now, if I could share what I have learned about comp/limiters in the past 6-months in live settings - it is VERY compelling (to me), and how properly deployed they assist the artist being heard is incredibly fascinating (to me) - but it serves no use here.

Time in the trenches - time in the field. Gain structure is my universe...

Max Headroom

4313B
02-26-2006, 06:43 AM
Hi Dad! Send money. :rotfl:


I miss the camaraderieMe too!
finally this passion has found wonderfully fertile ground.Excellent! :applaud:
I feel bad about the absence, but when I login and look around, there are SO many new threads and so many responses.Not as bad as I do I'll bet. Yeah, just yesterday there was a thread that required just one response and it got 36. This morning I decided to login and was greeted with an overwhelming array of new threads and PM's. It's just too damn much. I can DEFINITELY see why "others" don't even want to get started and open that can of worms. We've already shown them how to turn off their PM's and email's. I've been a pretty big buffer but this is no longer category 3 stuff, this is category 4. Like you, I've got other things I want to do. :uhmmmm:

JBLnsince1959
02-26-2006, 07:08 AM
I find that I simply don't have time for this anymore....
I want to spend more time away from this....work on some backend projects for the website.




Nor can I, and I too am sorry - but not that anyone loses anything by my limited speaker building / engineering experience being offline, but I miss the camaraderie - the learning.




Bo, don't sell yourself short on this it WAS YOU, WHO when I first came on the forum took time to befriend me and make me feel welcome..,.that meant a lot to me and I've never forgotten it..thank you

Giskard...if you still want to work on the "backend" database my PM is now back up and running and feel free to PM to see if I can help...I would really love to play a part in designing the mother of all databases for this forum....if I can help in anyway, let me know...


and to the forum as a whole...I too over the last month have noticed that I'm speading too much time on the forum and less with the more important things in my life..such as my business ( and keeping 10,000's of computer functioning), my lady, dog, friends, spiritual groups, servicing 20 concubines - oh - that was only a dream last night - sorry

The point is that for the last two weeks I also had been planning to "leave" of sorts...as i said in the thread about the database.."time for me to step into the background"..I meant in more ways than one, which leads to my point... not that anyone would care..but I just want to say this.


My decision to "leave the forum" was made some time ago and the post in the "Lansing? Audio? Off Topic??? " was NOT the reason...it was just the catalyst for the timing..in fact the descision for that thread to be my last for some time was already made....

I just couldn't understand how someone with a label of "Super Moderator" didn't even know the basic rules for the "Off Topic" forum was and felt compelled to injective his own subjective thoughts about people who were using it the way it was designed...AND I'm not trying to open old wounds here..just stating my opinion...apparently I'm completely wrong.

anyway, Had I answered back at that time, it would have been another "dog Fight" in the forum and I didn't want to that....so I thought I would take the "high Road" and not stoop to that level and answer back in anger, saving the forum any bad feelings..I know how everyone has felt when those dog fights erupted...Apparently even that was wrong as I still got my ass reamed for not taking the low road but instead just bowing out. I had said what I had to say, there was nothing more to accomplish, and my self-esteem does not depend on what someone says on this forum..I'm comfortable with myself..But according to some I was wrong...I quess I should have just fired back what I was REALLY THINKING...

Back to business..Giskard, I'm here if you want...

Bo..thanks for the friendship when I first came on. I would like to end saying that when someone new comes into the forum it's real nice if we take a little extra time to make them feel comfortable as Bo did with me..means alot...and that's what I was doing with Mag with all those jokes in off topic forum..I was trying to do for her what Bo had done for me..simply to make her feel welcome..sorry it seems to have pissed off people..

I will from time to time come here but not as before...

boputnam
02-26-2006, 10:24 AM
Hi Dad! Send money. :rotfl:Will do, pard'. Just getting some backup from Don, and Widget. Never soon enough...


Excellent! :applaud: Like you, I've got other things I want to do.Thanks, man.

Last year I did two shows this size - big stuff for a small fry like me. I can't put to words the thrill of getting it right, at this scale, and not having one - not one - complaint from the audience. And ALL of them have ears as "good" as ours...

mikebake
02-26-2006, 10:57 AM
That's cool, Bo. On account of all the booking/promoting/stage managing I do all year, I am at FOH and onstage alot. Last year I started using my cabs for the big inflatable movie screen I bought, which put me back in the small rig mode. Now I am mixing FOH at a large church with modern gear, and helping them sort through some improvements. This summer I'll fill in at FOH on some higher end consoles at the bigger fests I do (up to 7500 people, 24+ box shows with brand new McCauley cabs) to give the BE a break. I find this goes a long way to satisfy my hobby instincts and audio longings (nothing like live music, eh?), but I still have to have the tunes at home on demand! I also just bought some custom molded ear plugs with changeable filters, to preserve my deteriorating hearing near the stacks or on stage.

JBLnsince1959
02-26-2006, 11:39 AM
In my case- the evidence was deleted before others had a chance to read it.

When carefully articulated, all actions can be explained away. I am careful to grasp the intent of text, and when the intentions are clearly negative and personal- I gotta problem with that. I would never take an offensive position against anyone; I think it's absurd!! I'm a very peaceful person. I do, however, exercise the right to defend my position when I think I'm under fire. Taken out of context- a fraction of this information can be misinterpreted by outsiders.

Remember: The relationship that exists between certain forum members can be based on something not in the threads. A bias opinion of each other can dictate the nature of replies between the two- much to the confusion of others.


[/COLOR]

Since you've only been here a few weeks or months, you've missed the really good fights...seems like something happens every 6 months or so.

Hell there was one so bad it was removed........
:rotfl: