Proper drivers for intended applications"A constant theme

[mikebake]

and undercurrent on this forum.

Thought I would add my 3 cents and post this in DIY. As always, do as you wish with your own gear, but there seems to be this fairly constant disregard for the driver and application engineering that JBL did. The window of acceptable use is often narrower than people want to think it is for many JBL drivers and products. Indeed, it seems it is the rarer case for a driver to have a pleasantly and suprisingly wider range of applications.
Considering what JBL designed a specific driver for and attempting to use it in it's proper application, or one in which the variables do not put the dirver/crossover/system outside it's parameters, is what sets some peoples thinking apart from others. They just can't contemplate the value of using a driver/product in some way at odds with or outside it's performance parameters. The beauty is in recognizing and then properly implementing the driver/product in order to revel (no pun) in it's best abilities.
It is a narrower, more focused pursuit than some realize. The education process here involves understanding this and then asking questions that deal with using the product correctly, not outside it's intended application. There doesn't seem to be much wisdom in bucking JBL's efforts and results, particularly with drivers. There is more going into the design and refinement of JBL drivers than I think most people are aware of. I would say that it would not be unusual for a highly qualified engineer to spend a year of work just getting one driver dialed in, even with all the past knowledge base that exists.

p.s. this isn't concerning any specific post anywhere else; it has been a theme since about day one on this site

MBB

[4313B]

it has been a theme since about day one on this siteIndeed it has. Thanks for the great post Mike!

[spkrman57]

Taking JBL products and using them in other than the JBL intended designs will often lead to less than "optimum" performance.

If projects using JBL and other components are used, it becomes more of a hit or miss design. I am guilty of doing that also, but I accept the risks with the results.

My favorite design involves JBL 2226 and Altec 902 on 811B horn crossed over @ 1.6khz 3rd order and single coil on the 2226 is a really nice general purpose system that is good with flea powered tube power up to 300 watt solid state amps. For 45hz to 16khz and simple sound, it is hard to beat, but I would never compare it to a stock JBL system.

Ron:p

[Robh3606]

Great Post Mike :thmbsup:


Yes I couldn't agree more. You need to use application specific drivers in the same ranges as the original designs to get the best performance out of them. You can go outside these windows however it takes experience using the drivers to get this knowledge. The easiest thing to do is do your home work and use the original JBL designs as a starting point. You at least have a good basic working design model to start with and you get to hear how JBL intended the driver to be used from the outset. You may find that it's what your looking for and stop right there. For the more adventurous you can try your hand at extending the range or trying different crossover points and slope and you have a reference to compare to. Most of the information you need is available right on the JBL Pro sight. Here are a couple of links so you know where to look,

Vintage Product Information

This is all the basic brochures for vintage product and gives you driver sets, crossover, and lots of useful information.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm

Technical Manuals

This gives you drivers sets, schematics, basic dimensions, cone kits and on and on. Lots of goodies in these sheets

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/pdf_nav_tech.html

Crossovers

There are systems not covered in the Tech Sheets and many of the schematics can be found here.

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/Network%20Schematics.html


System Reference Charts

If you don't want all the information in the Tech Sheets and want to do a comparison of different versions say A vs. B you can use these summaries to easilly see what the differences are

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/Systems%20Ref%20Charts.html



The Thiele Small Table

If you use a box program not all come with a database and some will probably be missing the newer drivers

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Thiele%20Small%20Parameters/Theile%20Parameters.pdf

Rob:)

[spkrman57]

I wonder if this info is in a "sticky" or something like that. Maybe Techbot can arrange for this info to have quick and easy access!
Ron:bouncy:






Vintage Product Information

This is all the basic brochures for vintage product and gives you driver sets, crossover, and lots of useful information.

http://www.jblpro.com/pages/obsolete.htm

Technical Manuals

This gives you drivers sets, schematics, basic dimensions, cone kits and on and on. Lots of goodies in these sheets

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/pdf_nav_tech.html

Crossovers

There are systems not covered in the Tech Sheets and many of the schematics can be found here.

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/Network%20Schematics.html


System Reference Charts

If you don't want all the information in the Tech Sheets and want to do a comparison of different versions say A vs. B you can use these summaries to easilly see what the differences are

http://www.jblproservice.com/navigation/Systems%20Ref%20Charts.html



The Thiele Small Table

If you use a box program not all come with a database and some will probably be missing the newer drivers

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Thiele%20Small%20Parameters/Theile%20Parameters.pdf

Rob:)

[toddalin]

Connect a 130A and an LE175/HL87 to an N1200 and tell me that things couldn't be better! :rotfl:

[4313B]

Ok! Holy Hand Grenade Batman! Things couldn't be better! :applaud:

[frank23]

and undercurrent on this forum.

Thought I would add etc etc

MBB

Nice posting. I would never say that JBL does not put a lot of effort into designing their drivers and speakers etc. But to say that using them in another way than intented would not do them justice is a too narrow view.

When understanding components [or trying to] and accepting their limitations, you can use them in another design very effectively. That is because the design criteria that they were designed for are not necceseraly the ones I need. You could say that I would then not have to use these drivers, but that is not the case per se. I think the main difference between the JBL set of criteria and mine is that for me, speaker do not have to be able to play as loud as is required of studio monitors.

For instance, I like to use 1st order crossovers, that results in a larger amount of energy going to the driver outside of the passband than with higher order crossovers. So the driver excursion is going to be a factor.

JBL drivers are designed to withstand high play levels and have to do it for a long time [hanging from the ceiling of a football stadium]. In my living room, I can only feed them 12watts and they probably don't see more than 1watt, but when the see it coming, it might be at a relatively low 250-500Hz.

I like the sound that way, but I need compression drivers that can handle it and behave up to 15kHz. And so JBL compression drivers are used in a way not intended in their design, but for my goals fit the requirements very effectively.

frank

[Robh3606]

"But to say that using them in another way than intented would not do them justice is a too narrow view.'

Hello Frank

Well you just missed the boat. It has nothing to do with a narrow veiw. This perspective is from an engineering standpoint not a hobbiest DIY mentality. I can have my friends VW Jeta tow my 3000 lbs boat and it will work fine most of the time, except maybe when I try to stop or get it back up the ramp. It will move it just fine but a Jeta was not designed to tow a 3000 lb boat.

I can run a 2420 down to 300Hz if I want to using low power. It will sound like crap and the 2nd 3rd harmonic distortion levels will go through the roof but hell it will make music. Jbl would never use it that way.

Bottom line is you can do what ever you want when you DIY but don't expect to get the kind of resilts these drivers are capable of when you deliberately use drivers in applications they were not designed for or push them beyond their intended passbands. They will work but not up to there potential which is the hole point. Why would you go through the expense of purchasing TOL drivers and ignore the manufacturers reccomendations for use???? Does that make sense to you????

Rob:)

[frank23]

hi rob,

it seems that you see that the goal for the driver is to produce the most sound with the least distortion, which is fine

my personal goal is to produce the musically sounding speaker for my living room and I don't need 120dB, so I have the room to make other design decisions than the JBL engineers. I don't see why that application uses the driver[s] in an inferior way to the way as JBL used the drivers to great effect in their designs.

you could even say that the 4430 uses drivers in a way not intended originally. It is just that JBL found a way using a nice horn and crossover to make do without a tweeter, and still produce a very nice 2-way monitor follow-up for the 3-way monitors. Though they did design the 2421 diaphragm but as Zilch shows a 2420 diaphragm [in his LE85] works no less.

as long as JBL brings out great drivers and horns for me to play around with and this forum exists to share the joy, I'm happy. That is why this is the DIY forum.

frank

[mikebake]

.

as long as JBL brings out great drivers and horns for me to play around with and this forum exists to share the joy, I'm happy. That is why this is the DIY forum.

frank
It still should be a place of trying to employ best practices and sound application, not sloppy implementation. I do understand your point about some flexibility when certain requirements need not be met. Thanks for posting.
MBB

[hapy._.face]

and undercurrent on this forum.
Thought I would add my 3 cents and post this in DIY. As always, do as you wish with your own gear, but there seems to be this fairly constant disregard for the driver and application engineering that JBL did. The window of acceptable use is often narrower than people want to think it is for many JBL drivers and products. Indeed, it seems it is the rarer case for a driver to have a pleasantly and suprisingly wider range of applications.
Considering what JBL designed a specific driver for and attempting to use it in it's proper application, or one in which the variables do not put the dirver/crossover/system outside it's parameters, is what sets some peoples thinking apart from others. They just can't contemplate the value of using a driver/product in some way at odds with or outside it's performance parameters. The beauty is in recognizing and then properly implementing the driver/product in order to revel (no pun) in it's best abilities.
It is a narrower, more focused pursuit than some realize. The education process here involves understanding this and then asking questions that deal with using the product correctly, not outside it's intended application. There doesn't seem to be much wisdom in bucking JBL's efforts and results, particularly with drivers. There is more going into the design and refinement of JBL drivers than I think most people are aware of. I would say that it would not be unusual for a highly qualified engineer to spend a year of work just getting one driver dialed in, even with all the past knowledge base that exists. p.s. this isn't concerning any specific post anywhere else; it has been a theme since about day one on this site

MBB


Thank you for the post. Points well taken. Coming from an offender- I appreciate the tact you have shown here. As such, I learned a new perspective and it has me learning in a new direction. Which leads me to add my 2 cents (or was it '3'?):



I understand that this site, with all it's ignorance (not an insult- simply a lack of understanding), can be somewhat taxing on those gifted with the insight on how things JBL/HiFi work. It seems that after a while some of those more knowledgeable tend to project hostility to the ones not more knowledgeable. If I treat my daughter like a moron because she does not have the intelligence of an adult, yet- what would that say about my character? She will likely get a better education than I did and be able to put her talents and skills to better use and surpass me intellectually. No matter how you look at it- this site is a learning module and learning is happening on many different levels. Suffice to say- we all have our specialties in life.

That being said- factor in the "text effect" and its ability/inability to convey the author's intent. Be it a joke, insult, or what have you- things get misread here every minute. I say it's better to confirm what the person's intentions are before opening up on them. I know it's the consensus to 'shoot first- ask later' for many members, but I hope I'm interpreting that as a joke .:)

[4313B]

Nice post!





It seems that after a while some of those more knowledgeable tend to project hostility to the ones not more knowledgeable.Who are they? By God we'll give them what for! We'll straighten them out forthwith!

factor in the "text effect" and its ability/inability to convey the author's intent.Yeah, there's that...

[hapy._.face]

...Who are they? By God we'll give them what for! We'll straighten them out forthwith!

'...it was years ago'. ;)

Thread (post #37): http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9192

Giskard- Not you!! Your manner is always mild, pleasant, and forthcoming. Besides you don't know much about this sort of thing anyways. (example of text effect)

Laugh, please. :)

[4313B]

What was years ago?

[hapy._.face]

click link in my post above...

[4313B]

...Who are they? By God we'll give them what for! We'll straighten them out forthwith!Giskard- Not you!! Your manner is always mild, pleasant, and forthcoming. Besides you don't know much about this sort of thing anyways.Oh! I know it's not me silly! We never see ourselves the way others see us! :p
Yes, I always try to be mild, pleasant and forthcoming and appreciate that the endeavor isn't lost on others. :)
No, I don't know very much about any of this stuff. I'd feel much more comfortable discussing carpets and drapes but this is where they put me. :dont-know

[hapy._.face]

Now that's a nice post!! :p

[spkrman57]

No, I don't know very much about any of this stuff. I'd feel much more comfortable discussing carpets and drapes but this is where they put me. http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/dont-know.gif


Now that is funny!

:p

Ron

[hapy._.face]

Quote by MikeBaker: '...There doesn't seem to be much wisdom in bucking JBL's efforts and results, particularly with drivers. There is more going into the design and refinement of JBL drivers than I think most people are aware of.'



I have no choice but to believe this is true. Simply put- I'm not knowledgeable enough about it argue with you. I do understand product and marketing very well, and I know that JBL didn't exactly conform to design excellence in every project. Budget, time, manufacturing, and aesthetics all play a role in the process when putting something together and it's easy for a beginner to look at this and say "Oh, I have no manufacturing budget. I have all the time in the world. And I will spend extra effort to make it look good" (for example) "Why not put together a group of celebrated drivers for a dream system?" As a newbie- I see a lot of threads dedicated to crossover manipulation, driver substitution, and build from scratch projects and I want to jump in with my armload of toys (too) yet armed with little information on how they will work together. It's also easy to see that JBL made inferior cabinets sometimes. There is no question- these can be upgraded. JBL also made poor choices in crossover components (from what I gather). And (dare I say it) JBL made terrible speakers (at times). I do appreciate the advice on letting duty specific drivers play the role they were designed to do. That makes perfect since to me. (again- "thank you"). But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?

[4313B]

But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?Possibly. I think you've posted a reasonable list of areas for potential improvement, e.g. enclosure design and construction, network components - both quality and empirical changes due to different enclosure designs and construction methods. Also active filters.

[norealtalent]

Partial... But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?



VERY correct. Click here to see the result of similar ambitions...
http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/speakers.html
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif

[4313B]

VERY correct. Click here to see the result of similar ambitions...
http://www.westlakeaudio.com/Speakers/speakers.html
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/applaud.gifUm, I hate to bust a bubble or two but there's a wee bit of difference between the guys at Westlake and the guys here.

[norealtalent]

Um, I hate to bust a bubble or two but there's a wee bit of difference between the guys at Westlake and the guys here.

Yah, but we got you on our side, I figure that kinda balances things out.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[4313B]

Yah, but we got you on our side, I figure that kinda balances things out.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/tongue.gifNot even close. Sorry! :D





Well, ok, I can build a nicer looking physical network layout. :rotfl:
But Mr. Widget can kick my butt in that area if he's of a mind to. :p
But then again, anyone can if they're of a mind to. :applaud:

[norealtalent]

Not even close. Sorry! :D

Talk about busting a bubble!!!:bouncy:

[hapy._.face]

Damn! Westlake sure does make a pretty loudspeaker. They LOOK- good!!! And from what I heard (Thanks Dave!) They sound great! (are those disco cateyes on the tower series?)

Looking at that site makes me want to break my pencil.

[norealtalent]

Damn! Westlake sure does make a pretty loudspeaker. Are those disco cateyes on the tower series?? They LOOK- good!!! And from what I heard (Thanks Dave!) They sound great!

Looking at that site makes me want to break my pencil.

All good things come to those who wait my Friend...:yes: :bouncy: :applaud:

[Robh3606]

Hello Hapy._.face

Interesting Post

"But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?"

First of all no one said it wasn't possible to do so. One way you won't get there is using the drivers outside their passbands or designed use. This includes recommended crossover slopes as well especially with compression drivers. I think that is the crux of the original post. This all goes back to good engineering and design practices. How a loudspeaker is voiced is subjective, the engineering required to get it there is not. As a DIY project you can do lot's of things that would not be marketable. So if you need an extra cubic foot or so you can do that and get better performance out of a woofer on the low end as an example. That said you really need to do your homework to even match performance of an original design on something like 4344/4345 as an example. To try to improve on that is no simple task. You can't just throw a bunch of drivers in the cabinet, substitute a different horn and compression driver turn it on and think it's a done deal. First off what is your reference???? For you to appreciate what you are trying to emulate you need to have a starting point. That is why it's always good to start with an original design and work from there. You can't very well say you have a better mousetrap without every building or using the original. If your serious either purchase or clone your baseline system so you have a frame of reference for comparison.

Rob:)

[4313B]

You can't just throw a bunch of drivers in the cabinet, substitute a different horn and compression driver turn it on and think it's a done deal.Yes, swapping horns/lenses willy nilly without fully understanding them and making the required system changes is no different than buying a lottery ticket.

[Zilch]

But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?Highly unlikely. You can make incremental improvements to the apparent constraints you've highlighted, and some others, perhaps, but the order of magnitude improvement which you postulate here is an unrealistic expectation.

It has taken nearly a year and a half of conscientious learning and experimentation, much of it documented in this forum, for me to get to the point where I can competently assemble even a two-way that measures and sounds decent.

Witnesseth today's fare:

[Zilch]

Yes, swapping horns/lenses willy nilly without fully understanding them and making the required system changes is no different than buying a lottery ticket.Yup. Even THEN, it can still sound like poop! :p

[4313B]

It has taken nearly a year and a half of conscientious learning and experimentationMultiply it by roughly 13 and then tell us how you feel. You've only just begun! Don't run out of gas yet!

Yup. Even THEN, it can still sound like poop! :pWell yeah, some stuff just isn't meant to go together.

[mikebake]

I have no choice but to believe this is true. Simply put- I'm not knowledgeable enough about it argue with you. I do understand product and marketing very well, and I know that JBL didn't exactly conform to design excellence in every project. Budget, time, manufacturing, and aesthetics all play a role in the process when putting something together and it's easy for a beginner to look at this and say "Oh, I have no manufacturing budget. I have all the time in the world. And I will spend extra effort to make it look good" (for example) "Why not put together a group of celebrated drivers for a dream system?" As a newbie- I see a lot of threads dedicated to crossover manipulation, driver substitution, and build from scratch projects and I want to jump in with my armload of toys (too) yet armed with little information on how they will work together. It's also easy to see that JBL made inferior cabinets sometimes. There is no question- these can be upgraded. JBL also made poor choices in crossover components (from what I gather). And (dare I say it) But what I don't subscribe to is the fact I cannot make a FAR superior system using the same drivers (properly grouped of course) when I have none of the constraints that limited JBl to make the overall product superlative in the first place. Correct?


Yes, there were some market compromises in some areas on things you mentioned, like enclosures etc. and as Giskard said, they are indeed valid and potentially rewarding areas of interest/effort. I was refering mostly to driver applications directly, but a side point is that as you start "improving" some of these systems, you start to understand and appreciate the decisions/directions of the original designers. I'm just also arguing for error on the side of understanding the experience that went into driver/circuit/voicing some of the systems. There can be/are some really excellent DIY designs using JBL drivers, but it is often harder than it looks to get a really high quality result. That is both the challenge and the fun, I would say.

[4313B]

Agreed.

BTW -

May I suggest a big helping of biased filters for the Performance Series? :)
There really isn't much else one can do to make that already excellent system "better" and that's a good thing.

[mikebake]

Agreed.

BTW -

May I suggest a big helping of biased filters for the Performance Series? :)
There really isn't much else one can do to make that already excellent system "better" and that's a good thing.
I thought about that, but right now I am really frustrated trying to figure out my room(s). I gotta start with the right room/placement and work from there, and right now I am struggling; no easy solution at my house to "get it all done" i.e. all-in-one HT and stereo listening. Frustrating.

[frank23]

Driving to work today I thought a little about this thread and it came to me that while I feel that I can swap around JBL parts until I like the sound, to some of you this swapping feels just like what I feel when I see people modifying my beloved BMW E30 M3.

The BMW E30 M3 was about perfect for its goal the way BMW launched it in 1987. It had a high revving 4-cilinder brabham F1 related engine with a short crank [because in racing revs=power for certain displacement volume]. It had large spoilers. etc. etc.

They built it the way they did because they wanted a car that would give them a base for Group-A touring car victory [and it did, being the most succesfull touring car ever] and still be useable by normal people, sit in a traffic jam, build up miles and miles and be BMW reliable.

Some people put a [non M] 6-cilinder in it for adding refinement, some put a V8 in it, or a turbo. Some lower it to the extreme, some pimp it to the extreme. Some are butchering the cars for their engine wanting to use it for racing, and leaving the body and interior for scrap.

But that is not the way BMW intended the combined package, and I don't like it. There are "allowed upgrades" like the Schnitzer suspension I have on mine, but it very soon gets ugly and people with pimped E30 M3's are mostly ignored by "those who did not tinker with theirs".

Some of us must feel the same about JBL products.

Frank

[Zilch]

Some of us must feel the same about JBL products.Yeah, there's limits, even among the fearless.

I'd find cutting 2405H's into the face of 4435's "problematic" on many levels, for example.

NO issues with doing that to L200's.

[Might have some OTHER suggestions, tho.... ;) ]

Edit: A distinction of merit: Some of the old stuff just begs to be updated. The knowledge and technology have advanced considerably in the meantime. All it has is resale value; more, ironically, as parts than whole....

[hapy._.face]

Interesting analogy (the whole BMW:JBL thing). I think (in regard to the vintage ones) BMW rarely compromised in overall product superiority. They made mistakes, perhaps. From what I can tell JBL (like any large successful company) has compromised*. JBL has its flagship and its econo. The 'econo' (today) in JBL lineups is pretty bad- the 'econo' in a BMW is still somewhat above average when it comes to cars. So, overall product loyalty is high. The BMW brand implies quality. The JBL (brand) conjures up a wide spectrum of images: from crap to near sonic perfection. Today's BMW is not yesterday's. And most of yesterday's BMWs fall short of today's better cars. That's not to say people demand the integrity of the original. It serves as a benchmark. If a modern home is better insulated and designed- it's still no license to bulldoze a well preserved 200 yr old colonial farmhouse to make room for more tract housing. Point is: I think it depends on what model JBL some one is planning to butcher. Some JBL models have a charm that is almost impossible to duplicate from scratch. No one is upset if I reconfigure my L212s- but mention I want to swap and play with the design of a 4345- and axes will fly. All I want is a better horn and crossover (not withstanding- a better cabinet build). I don't think that's asking too much...is it??





* [That's not an insult to the company- in fact it's a compliment. In today's market you have to compromise somewhere in order to stay competitive. The fact JBL can still market its high end line (overseas) is testament to their overall achievements.]

[4313B]

Point is: I think it depends on what model JBL some one is planning to butcher.Well, I view that from the opposite perspective. The 4345 is actually worth spending time biasing as is the L212, but if you drag the Radiance model of your choice in here asking me to bias the networks I'm going to have to decline.

As for a better horn for the 4344/4345...

[rek50]

Many Tastes, Many entries.

Judgement will be awarded in several catagories:
1) Showroom Stock/Factory Original
2) Restored Stock/Original Configuration
3)Pro-Sound (any and all modifications)
4) Street-Sound (Modifications limited to Driver Change only)
5)Home-Sound (Modification of Networks/Wiring only)

:D

[hapy._.face]

Well then. Perhaps it is too much to ask. And that's why I come here- to learn. I value the opinions. Thanks.:)

fwiw: Is it that horns (in general) are sensitve and difficult to tame??

[Robh3606]

We are not trying to stifle your creativity or chop your head off. It's not that simple to change horns out. I will give you a quick comparison the 2307 used in the 4344/45 and the 2344. They are as different as night and day. One is an Exponetial and the other is Constant Directivity. When JBL made the switch over to the 4400 series the 2344 and the 2235/2234 was how they were able to do it. There is an excellent paper on the site that you should read to give you insight to just how different horns can be.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76021#post76021



Rob:)

[mikebake]

[QUOTE=hapy._.face] the 'econo' in a BMW is still somewhat above average when it comes to cars. QUOTE]
No they are not. There isn't much of an econo BMW, and at their "econo" price point, other cars provide more/better car.

[hapy._.face]

[QUOTE=hapy._.face] the 'econo' in a BMW is still somewhat above average when it comes to cars. QUOTE]
No they are not. There isn't much of an econo BMW, and at their "econo" price point, other cars provide more/better car.

Agreed. That's why I put 'econo' in quotes and said "somewhat above". Depends on what values you implement.
We can assume the 'econo' BMW is above average in one category: price.