JBL's cannot take any power........

[Mike33]

First pair i have owned.......one woofer the spiderand surround was loose(glue let go) from the voice coil, and had it reglued a couple days ago, now the surround on the other woofer has ripped.

NEVER had problems with other speaker brands i have used in the past except these.......:(

[hapy._.face]

First pair i have owned.......one woofer the spiderand surround was loose(glue let go) from the voice coil, and had it reglued a couple days ago, now the surround on the other woofer has ripped.

NEVER had problems with other speaker brands i have used in the past except these.......:(

..Am I reading this right? Have you ever been to a live concert in the last 10 years? Are you actually saying JBL's cannot handle POWER?!?!? WTF? If anything JBL= HIGH SPL!!! Don't dismiss the brand cause you're having issues with 1 pr of subs. I'm curious to know what model number you're bitching about- I bet ANYTHING they were old enough to justify new surrounds before driving them hard. And glue is glue- fix it and go on. Perhaps you are the problem... :mad:

[Mike33]

..Am I reading this right? Have you ever been to a live concert in the last 10 years? Are you actually saying JBL's cannot handle POWER?!?!? WTF? If anything JBL= HIGH SPL!!! Don't dismiss the brand cause you're having issues with 1 driver. Maybe you are the problem....

With one driver??
Try both drivers........

[hapy._.face]

With one driver??
Try both drivers........

I edited- doesn't matter. You're talking about a single model that I bet is capable of shaking your house from the foundation if repaired/driven properly.

[Mike33]

I edited- doesn't matter. You're talking about a single model that I bet is capable of shaking your house from the foundation if repaired/driven properly.

Driving them with a 4B NPB Bryston and a Sansui 9090DB as the pre or a Krell KSP-7B as the pre.
They do not shake the foundation because they blow up before getting close to that, i would say anything after 60wpc and they are toast......
Maybe i will part them out if there is a market for L80T parts.
One driver has been reglued and new dustcap put on and the other one has a 2" tear in the surround.
Tweeters/mids are fine, if anyone is interested.......

[hapy._.face]

Driving them with a 4B NPB Bryston and a Sansui 9090DB as the pre or a Krell KSP-7B as the pre.
They do not shake the foundation because they blow up before getting close to that, I would say anything after 60wpc and they are toast......
Maybe i will part them out if there is a market for L80T parts.
One driver has been reglued and new dustcap put on and the other one has a 2" tear in the surround.
Tweeters/mids are fine, if anyone is interested.......

Surround replacement is inevitable (about every 15 years with regular use). Welcome to the real world of vintage speakers. You won't get a driver to do much with a torn surround - except self destruct.
:tribe: (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=2#)

[Mike33]

Surround replacement is inevitable (about every 15 years with regular use). Welcome to the real world of vintage speakers. You won't get a driver to do much with a torn surround - except self destruct. I'm reading and re-reading your set up compared to your speakers...did you come accross the Bryston for cheap or did you think you could have similar performance from the model JBL's in question. Or are you talking :bs: ??

For the record, the surround was fine before and now it's not, seems these drivers are not meant to take any bass.....

Yes of course why would anybody think you can do anything with a torn surround??
Why would the Bryston be cheap??
The Bryston is an amplifier incase you do not know.
Why would i be talking b.s.? bizarre....

[John]

Well the L80's are just entry level backround music speakers. If you forked out the coin for Bryston and Krell step up to the plate for some Jbl 4331-4333-4343-4345 if you want a live concert experiance and start living!!! This does not mean you can neglect regular service on these bad boys. Take care of their needs and believe me they will take care of you.:bouncy:

[Zilch]

"Shaking the house from the foundation" may be a stretch, but get your drivers properly resurrounded and they'll likely perform just fine.

Vintage 1985 - 1988 with indeterminate history, I'd say they needed service before expecting to crank 'em. They may be 20 years old.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L80T%20ts.pdf

Get some JBL's with 15" WOOFERS if you want bass to rock.

4430's would be a reasonable start....

[hapy._.face]

Well the L80's are just entry level backround music speakers. If you forked out the coin for Bryston and Krell step up to the plate :bouncy:

Exactly my point. Thanks for translating, John :) .

[hapy._.face]

"Shaking the house from the foundation" may be a stretch, but get your drivers properly resurrounded and they'll likely perform just fine.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L80T%20ts.pdf

Get some JBL's with 15" WOOFERS if you want bass to rock.

4430's would be a reasonable start....

Perhaps it was- but I said that BEFORE he mentioned what kind of speakers he had. ...just got a little fired up. :biting: :biting: :biting: :biting:

[edgewound]

First pair i have owned.......one woofer the spiderand surround was loose(glue let go) from the voice coil, and had it reglued a couple days ago, now the surround on the other woofer has ripped.

NEVER had problems with other speaker brands i have used in the past except these.......:(

This is a funny post. Maybe you should have done your homework before you turned on the system. L80t has a 10" woofer and won't make 20hz and below like you seem to be after. Your electronics sound like you spent thousands of dollars....you spent a couple or a few hundred on worn speakers. The L80t does just fine when used as intended....and has been maintained rather than abused. Buy some speakers that will do what you intend to do to them....pound on you. Build or buy something with at least two 15" woofers....or in your case, 18".....then you can attempt to blow those up too.....have fun...when you can no longer hear....you can no longer bitch.

[4313B]

:rotfl: Welcome to 125/127 ownership.

You guys blow more of them damn things! :bash:

The L80t does just fine when used as intended....and has been maintained rather than abused.Absolutely.

[hapy._.face]

QUOTE: 'For the record, the surround was fine before and now it's not, seems these drivers are not meant to take any bass.....'
What do you define as 'fine'. Intact? I bet it was fragile from age despite that fact it may have looked fine. Try a new surround. Remember it's only a 10", though. You'll never be able to drive it real hard.


QUOTE: 'Why would the Bryston be cheap??'
They are never cheap. That's why I cannot understand why you went with cheaper JBL speakers. Seems like a mismatch in quality.


QUOTE: 'The Bryston is an amplifier incase you do not know.'
No sh!t? I thought they made smoke detectors and gas masks. Point is- why the nice amp and the entry level speakers??


QUOTE: 'Why would i be talking b.s.? bizarre..'
Here's something bizarre: A guy becomes a member of this site only to dis a pair of broken down JBLs that were never intended to be paired with the quality of componets he's using..

[4313B]

Here's something bizarre: A guy becomes a member of this site only to dis JBL.It's happened before.

[hapy._.face]

It's happened before.

lol. who?? I hope you aren't implying"me"!

[Mike33]

Ok, lets put it this way........i bought the JBL's cheap compared to the other speakers i have owned.
So i thought why not try them.
Now, it seems like JBL has 1000's of different speakers, if they are so great then why is there so many different kinds?
I want cristal clear sound that does not LACK bass and sounds musical and not dull and boring.
The type of speaker you can hear the singers breath......
The type of speaker that makes you get excited to hear and makes you go wow.
The type of speaker that does not sound great in everything but lack bass.
I want the bass to hit you in the chest and sound clean and powerfull.

Can JBL do this?

It is hard for someone new to JBL to go on ebay with 10,000 adds and pick a speaker you know.

[Mr. Widget]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/icons/icon13.gif JBL's cannot take any power........
I have never really used any of the smaller JBLs, but I have blasted the sh!t out of many a "real" JBL and never lost one, except a pair of compression drivers years ago due to over driving a tiny amp. I have literally done structural damage to my parents' home when I was younger and have undoubtedly done my ears harm on more than one occasion. (Luckily the human animal is fairly resilient.)

Get some real JBLs and see what it's all about.


Widget

PS. My hearing is still above average and I rarely test the metal of my speakers like I used to, but these things can be enjoyed at many different listening levels, and as long as you are listening and paying attention to them it is difficult to damage them with too much power.

[hapy._.face]

Ok, lets put it this way........i bought the JBL's cheap compared to the other speakers i have owned.
So i thought why not try them.
Now, it seems like JBL has 1000's of different speakers, if they are so great then why is there so many different kinds?
I want cristal clear sound that does not LACK bass and sounds musical and not dull and boring.
The type of speaker you can hear the singers breath......
The type of speaker that makes you get excited to hear and makes you go wow.
The type of speaker that does not sound great in everything but lack bass.
I want the bass to hit you in the chest and sound clean and powerfull.

Can JBL do this?

It is hard for someone new to JBL to go on ebay with 10,000 adds and pick a speaker you know.


OK- now we are talkin civilized. Fair questions. I had a similar approach to JBL not more than a couple months ago. I came accross a pair for cheap and thought the same thing. I got em fixed up and I bought another pair- then another. Now I LOVE my JBLs!! The answer to your question: YES JBL CAN DO THIS! You just need to get the right model. You have a killer amp- and if bass is your thing- you are in serious luck with JBL subs. I'd suggest using this forum as a research model and see what guys are saying here about the various models to see which is right for you. Then go for it. IME- you can always get your money back out of it if you don't like it.

[Mr. Widget]

Now, it seems like JBL has 1000's of different speakers, if they are so great then why is there so many different kinds?Being the world's largest speaker company they are competing at many levels with all of the other brands.



I want cristal clear sound that does not LACK bass and sounds musical and not dull and boring.
The type of speaker you can hear the singers breath......
The type of speaker that makes you get excited to hear and makes you go wow.
The type of speaker that does not sound great in everything but lack bass.
I want the bass to hit you in the chest and sound clean and powerfull.

Can JBL do this?Sure. You'll need to spend over a grand for used and over 5 grand for new.

I am sure various members will chime in with their favorites. I am a DIY guy.

Widget

[Mike33]

I would say my preferred limit would be under $1500 at this time.
No subs, i find them hard to blend in and hard to tune......P.I.T.A.........subs are for movies,i.m.o. and i am strictly into 2 channel.

[Zilch]

Can JBL do this?Oh, sure.

Not for $200, tho, unless you're REALLY lucky with a score. :p

Fix those woofers and use the L80T's for surround or other modest listening.

You're not gonna thump yer chest or rock the house playin' 10" woofers, nope.... :no:

[With about eight of 'em you could, tho.... :D ]

Click "UserCP," above, and enable location display in your profile. You might get invited by a forum member to hear what it's about if they knew you were local....

[edgewound]

Ok, lets put it this way........i bought the JBL's cheap compared to the other speakers i have owned.
So i thought why not try them.
Now, it seems like JBL has 1000's of different speakers, if they are so great then why is there so many different kinds?
I want cristal clear sound that does not LACK bass and sounds musical and not dull and boring.
The type of speaker you can hear the singers breath......
The type of speaker that makes you get excited to hear and makes you go wow.
The type of speaker that does not sound great in everything but lack bass.
I want the bass to hit you in the chest and sound clean and powerfull.

Can JBL do this?

It is hard for someone new to JBL to go on ebay with 10,000 adds and pick a speaker you know.

Wow...talk about spoiled, dude. You want Ford GT performance on a Pinto budget. JBL celebrates 60 years in business this year....no wonder they have so many models. Did you expect a warm welcome? You got's no manner's, dude.

You can go to Harman Direct....right now....and order up a pair of K2's for $30,000.00

Here's the link....order up a pair of 1000watt powered subs while you're there:
Go to the bottom of the page.

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?brand=JBL&status=C&market=HOM

[Mr. Widget]

Did you expect a warm welcome? You got's no manner's, dude.That's OK... we have a different operating procedure here. He's catching on. With luck we'll have a convert soon enough.

So come on people what do you recommend for awesome sound for under $1500 in the used market.


Widget

[John]

Ok I think we spanked this guy enough.:thmbsup:

Time to welcome him:bouncy:

If I am wrong ignore this post and feel free to carry on.:p

[Zilch]

So come on people what do you recommend for awesome sound for under $1500 in the used market.Already said it. 4430, of course! :thmbsup:

[No subs required, but plan on redoing the surrounds on arrival.... ;) ]

[edgewound]

That's OK... we have a different operating procedure here. He's catching on. With luck we'll have a convert soon enough.

So come on people what do you recommend for awesome sound for under $1500 in the used market.


Widget

How 'bout some badly in need of repair 4435's...probably stretchin' it....maybe some 250ti's that someone needs to get rid of. 240ti seem to be going for little on eBay. I hooked my brother up with new ones 17 years ago and just refoamed the LE14H-1 woofers for the first time...beautiful speakers....gorgeous teak wood...copius bass, especially when placed close to a wall/corner.

[John]

Hey edge that's what I was thinking. If he spends the time cruising ebay every now and then you can score a pair of 4435's in need of TLC around $1500.00

Or at least you used to be able to.:(

[jim3860]

Ok, lets put it this way........i bought the JBL's cheap compared to the other speakers i have owned.
So i thought why not try them.
Now, it seems like JBL has 1000's of different speakers, if they are so great then why is there so many different kinds?
I want cristal clear sound that does not LACK bass and sounds musical and not dull and boring.
The type of speaker you can hear the singers breath......
The type of speaker that makes you get excited to hear and makes you go wow.
The type of speaker that does not sound great in everything but lack bass.
I want the bass to hit you in the chest and sound clean and powerfull.

Can JBL do this?

It is hard for someone new to JBL to go on ebay with 10,000 adds and pick a speaker you know. First select floorstanding in the option boxes, When you get speakers on ebay, then jbl. that should narrow it down to less than a 100 speakers ok. as far as picking out a speaker you know, it probably wont happen, but thats ok. pick out one or two likely canidates, then come back to the forum do a search on those models. if you then want more advice on those models post a question here it will be answered quickly. also check out audiogon for ads there. also there is a member here oznob that has a killer deal on a pair of L7s L1s and L65s for sale in marketplace now, if you live in california. $800.00 for all 3 pair. that should rock your world:D since your into two channel choose the L65s or the L7s. Then sell the other 2 pair for $800.00. :applaud:

[hapy._.face]

Mike33-


What kind of music do you listen to?? JBL speakers/monitors tend to be "specialists". What is your listening room like?? Are you willing to make some repairs (are you mechanically inclined?) or do you want them to fall outta the box kickin a$$? I ask because it really makes a diff in $$!!

[Mike33]

Wow...talk about spoiled, dude. You want Ford GT performance on a Pinto budget. JBL celebrates 60 years in business this year....no wonder they have so many models. Did you expect a warm welcome? You got's no manner's, dude.

You can go to Harman Direct....right now....and order up a pair of K2's for $30,000.00

Here's the link....order up a pair of 1000watt powered subs while you're there:
Go to the bottom of the page.

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?brand=JBL&status=C&market=HOM

So according to you,$30,000 is what you need to spend to get a good quality JBL speaker that fits the bill?

[hapy._.face]

So according to you,$30,000 is what you need to spend to get a good quality JBL speaker that fits the bill?

LOL. No- he's just proving a point: JBL makes high end. There is a wide array of prices that reflect the quality.

[Earl K]

So come on people what do you recommend for awesome sound for under $1500 in the used market.

- Not sure about the "awesome" label, but for a fully domed system ; buying that pair of L5s' ( currently up on eBay in Florida ) along with the same sellers' le120h-1 12" woofs ( in need of some DIY 2.5cu' sub cabinets ) would make a heck of an affordable, "classic" starter system ( most likely for less than a $1000.00 ) .


:p

[Mike33]

Mike33-


What kind of music do you listen to?? JBL speakers/monitors tend to be "specialists". Pick the wrong one, and you're SOL. What is your listening room like (dimensions, carpet, etc..) ??

RocknRoll/Country. and maybe some harder stuff once in a while.
Not into jazz/classical but do like blues as well.

[edgewound]

So according to you,$30,000 is what you need to spend to get a good quality JBL speaker that fits the bill?

Well...no....that's how I interpreted your wants. That's what JBL has, right now, that's new that will do what you ask. Otherwise, you're going to have to invest some time and research....and probably get your hands a little dirty to get what you're after on a budget.

I'm sorry, but you barged in here with an attitude and experienced Newton's Third Law.

You will find more quality help here than any other forum on the internet. The only brand that really gets bashed around here is Bose.:p

So....with that...welcome...you're gonna have fun....and maybe make some new friends. BTW, what part of the world are you from? You can add a hint in the User CP.

Thanks,

[hapy._.face]

RocknRoll/Country. and maybe some harder stuff once in a while.
Not into jazz/classical but do like blues as well.

Let's see- you like it loud (somewhat). You like 2 channel only. and sometimes you like the 'harder stuff'. No brainer, dude: pick a pair of classic monitors!!! The choices are numerous. Do some reading on this forum- take the time to browse the photo gallery and read some specs. Do a search on one that catches your eye and read up on what owning a pair is like. A little legwork here will put you in sonic heaven. You will be EXTREMELY pressed to find a pair of modern day speakers that performs like a pair of vintage JBL monitors (especially for the dough)!

[4313B]

lol. who?? I hope you aren't implying"me"!No, it was years ago.

So come on people what do you recommend for awesome sound for under $1500 in the used market.For this guy? A pair of 4628B's, 4698B's or 4699B's.

[Tom Loizeaux]

First, just because it says JBL on the front doesn't mean its a great speaker. JBL make speakers for cars, computers and iPods! They make quality products in many price ranges and for different intended uses. Many of us here on this forum look to the JBL studio monitors for the speakers that satisfy us. These studio monitors were designed for high level (loud) playback with plenty of deep lows, clear mids and great top end. These also were efficient designs that can put the listener IN the music! In terms of low end - these generally used 15" woofers in large, ported cabinets.

Secondly, I believe that one should "balance" their sound system in terms of the quality and price of the componants. The speakers should cost about as much as the power amp in order to get the potential into the room. If you scrimp on either one you'll get a bad impression of the quality available.

Tom

[Titanium Dome]

I blew many 8" and 10" speakers hoping for 12" output. It's just not going to happen. Even the finest 8" and 10" drivers can be overdriven and destroyed with too much power (or too little). I've also whacked a few 12" and 15" drivers over the years, too, but that was usually the fault of an underachieving amp that killed 'em with clipping.

I'm happy to say that none of the drivers I've blown thus far have been JBL. My 8" and 10" destruction days were before I could afford speakers with quality 12" drivers. (JBL did replace a 12" due to a manufacturing defect in 1973.)

Yes, there are some fine dual 8" and 10" combos, like the SVA1800 and SVA2100 that can kick some serious butt, but even they stop short of giving that extra 5-10Hz at the bottom end that only a 12" can really deliver in satisfying dB, or that extra 10+Hz that you can coax out of a 14", 15", or 18" driver.

Amps and drivers need to have a realistic relation to each other. If you've got big balls, wear big pants.

[norealtalent]

Partial:
I want cristal clear sound that does not LACK bass and sounds musical and not dull and boring.
The type of speaker you can hear the singers breath......
The type of speaker that makes you get excited to hear and makes you go wow.
The type of speaker that does not sound great in everything but lack bass.
I want the bass to hit you in the chest and sound clean and powerfull.

Can JBL do this?...

JBL IS Just Bitchin' Loudspeakers. Come for a visit to Binghamton, NY and you'll hear for yourself. GUARANTEED TO PLEASE! If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand...
Welcome to the forum, Dave :bouncy:

[Steve Gonzales]

I've NEVER had a problem like yours. I wouldn't judge GM products to be all bad if I had a clapped-out 89' Chevette! I'd consider that they also made the Corvette too, wouldn't you?. I'd consider also that there are thousands of people all over the world that are part of this site and I can't seem to find the "Bose Heritage Site" and don't even want to for that matter. Reconsider your position and find a pair of top shelf models, LISTEN, then post again. I believe your opinion will be quite different. Good Luck, Steve G.

[pelly3s]

just find a pair of 4430's lol they may be your ticket to what you are looking for. Dave I still need to make a trip to hear your toys. I wont forget the tube amps either lol.

[pelly3s]

oh on the power thing, the 2258's in the double 18's at my shop sit all day long on one channel of a Itech 6000 almost in clip and love every second of it.

[Mike33]

Well i looked on ebay and did not really see anything and also looked at the reviews of the 4430 and some said they had no bass and the crossover was garbage (they said that, not me lol).
What about bose or cerwin vega?

[Mr. Widget]

Well i looked on ebay and did not really see anything and also looked at the reviews of the 4430 and some said they had no bass and the crossover was garbage (they said that, not me lol).The 4430 isn't all things to all people. There are many who really love them and others who respect them, but have decided to move on. The crossovers certainly are not garbage, but they are not made up of uber expensive "audiophile" parts either. The 4435 which was recommended by a couple of members most certainly does not lack bass, but it seems to be beyond your means anyway.



What about bose or cerwin vega?You are either quite unaware or you are just here to pull our chains.


Widget

[Mike33]

Yes i admit, the bose statement was thrown in there for some fun.
And as far as CV goes, i had a pair of d5's in the mid 80s and never had any complaints at the time (and then vs120s worst speaker i have ever had). The adjustable crossover really helped with them from what my memory recalls.
True or false.......CV and JBL brought out the same speakers in the 90s with different badges?
Just curious and i know a little off topic.
The 4430 is good i am sure but from the reviews people hated them or loved them it seemed.
I will do some searching in regards to the 4435.

[Mr. Widget]

True or false.......CV and JBL brought out the same speakers in the 90s with different badges?I would doubt it unless Cerwin Vega was secretly purchased by Harman...



The 4430 is good i am sure but from the reviews people hated them or loved them it seemed.Don't you find that to be the case with most speakers?

You need to listen to them and decide for yourself. I sure as hell would never buy any speakers that I had never heard unless I knew I could turn them with little out of pocket costs.


Widget

[Mike33]

You need to listen to them and decide for yourself. I sure as hell would never buy any speakers that I had never heard unless I knew I could turn them with little out of pocket costs.


Widget

Exactly, It is real hard to spend $1000-$1500 on speakers you never heard before and do not have a chance to hear because they are across the country.
That is why i ended up with the L80T's, cost was down and hope to get my money back out of them when resold.
That being said, are any of the new JBL's worthwhile or have they long since left there prime?

[Mr. Widget]

That being said, are any of the new JBL's worthwhile or have they long since left there prime?I think they are re-entering their prime with some of the new speakers that have been introduced lately. They hearken back to the days when JBL was JBL. The problem is that now as then, they are a premium product and not available on the cheap. In 1973 the L100 cost around $275 ea. with inflation that would be over $1200 ea. today. The L100 was a mid priced speaker for JBL. Today $2400 a pair is much higher than you are prepared to spend, yet it is close to the price you would need to spend for a pair of JBL 6332s. A 12" three-way that is the direct descendant of the L100.

Translation... if you want some quality kick ass speakers be prepared to pay for it or wait around for something to show up on eBay. You will not find the good stuff at the stores where the sales force wears matching colored polo shirts.


Widget

[mech986]

I've NEVER had a problem like yours. I wouldn't judge GM products to be all bad if I had a clapped-out 89' Chevette! I'd consider that they also made the Corvette too, wouldn't you?. I'd consider also that there are thousands of people all over the world that are part of this site and I can't seem to find the "Bose Heritage Site" and don't even want to for that matter. Reconsider your position and find a pair of top shelf models, LISTEN, then post again. I believe your opinion will be quite different. Good Luck, Steve G.

Hey Steve,

How often do you have to replace windows when you fire all 6 up???

Regards,

Bart

[Steve Schell]

Boy, you got that right TD.

[Zilch]

Just where are these "Reviews" alleging 4430 has no bass? :p

[norealtalent]

Just where are these "Reviews" alleging 4430 has no bass? :p

On the edirol forum, of course... :D

[MJC]

I would say my preferred limit would be under $1500 at this time.
No subs, i find them hard to blend in and hard to tune......P.I.T.A.........subs are for movies,i.m.o. and i am strictly into 2 channel.

That statement shows your lack of JBL knowledge. The L212 system, '77 vintage, was the first sat/sub system. And it WAS and still is 2-channel. The B212 sub worked perfectly with the 3-way L212 pair. And if you put seven of them in a room with four subs, as I have, you then have a great HT system, that can still play music in 2, 4, 5, or 7 channel.
BTW, the last complete L212 system I bought(L/R + sub) was $500 on ebay, I also built 3 for the front @ $500/ea, including upgraded xovers.
When it comes to buying on ebay, it take time to find what you want. It took me about 2 years to find the 9 drivers it took to make 3 speakers, plus the last find of a complete system.

The pic to the left, are all L212s and subs.

[Rolf]

Excuse me for breaking in to this thread, but is it possible to believe you can "move" the house with anything else that the CV "earth quake" speakers delivered with the movie "Earthquake" (Starring Charlton Heston) in the 70's?:blink: Of cource our tiny JBL's can't do that! :rotfl:

Rolf

[leif]

"Shaking the house from the foundation" may be a stretch, but get your drivers properly resurrounded and they'll likely perform just fine.

Vintage 1985 - 1988 with indeterminate history, I'd say they needed service before expecting to crank 'em. They may be 20 years old.

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L80T%20ts.pdf

Get some JBL's with 15" WOOFERS if you want bass to rock.

4430's would be a reasonable start....


Yes, and add a B460 or if possible two. And you can not only play for you and your neighbour. You can play for the entire neighbourhood. :applaud:

[Hamilton]

Just where are these "Reviews" alleging 4430 has no bass? http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/tongue.gif
Yeah, I'd like to see/laugh at that too. Zilch probably has a zillion RTAs of 4430s and here's mine, bought 'em new around '87 :

[Mike33]

Ask and you shall receive....

Reviewed by: Jerome Nagel, Audiophile, from Mission

Product Model Year:
1995

Summary:
Big nasal sounding midrange no bass. Throw the crossover in the trash, and bi-amp it with electonic crossover, and you may stand a chance of getting a sembalance of some kind of sound. I would like to know how JBL couls sell this speaker with that lousy foam edge that you have to replace every 3-5 years. Could have used a nice cloth edge? I've done an extensive re-design of the crossover, and using monster cable instead of the string that JBL used. I have almost been able to achieve a decent sound. Still trying, and frustrated. Does anyone have any info, let me know..

Strengths:
Very well made drivers.

Weaknesses:
Lousy crossover, and cabinet designed incorrectly. Made to sell.

Similar Products Used:
B&W 801

[Zilch]

He's a fool. The passive crossover is what makes 4430 work.

Read up on the main site here to discover what it's about.

Also, several Tech Notes about it at the bottom of the main forum page.

Again, enable location display in "UserCP." You may get an invite from a forum member to come hear them....

[Mr. Widget]

Could have used a nice cloth edge? I've done an extensive re-design of the crossover, and using monster cable...These two comments are a dead give away to the reviewer's lack of knowledge.

I agree with him that it is possible to achieve a nasal sound and lack of bass with them used in the wrong room with improper settings.

My criticisms of the design are lack of detail in the lower midrange and lack of quality highs... and when pushed they can sound strained and harsh. That said they are generally a well balanced system that many seem to be quite happy with. Zilch is so enamored that he refers to all two ways as 4430s.;)


Widget

[JBLnsince1959]

this is the stupidest, and most ignorant thread I've seen :barf:

[Mr. Widget]

this is the stupidest, and most ignorant thread I've seen :barf:Give me a minute... I'll PM you half a dozen threads that eclipse this one by a wide margin.:applaud:


Widget

[Robh3606]

Oh please!

I have seen that review before. Give me a break. Any Tom Dick or Harry can go up and post a review like that on AR. Your are welcome to chat in the forum but if you are going to reference garbage like that it is plain where you are comming from. If you don't like JBL's that's fine. Just go read some more of those reviews until you find a good one and buy those speakers.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Oh please!...:thmbsup:


Widget

[Mike33]

Oh please!

I have seen that review before. Give me a break. Any Tom Dick or Harry can go up and post a review like that on AR. Your are welcome to chat in the forum but if you are going to reference garbage like that it is plain where you are comming from. If you don't like JBL's that's fine. Just go read some more of those reviews until you find a good one and buy those speakers.

Rob:)

Why are you getting upset?
The members asked to see the review, so i posted it.
I guess any thing negative about jbl is perceived as garbage here.
I do not recall saying i do not like JBL,just have not heard any worthy of the living room yet.
I guess you guys are a real sensitive bunch.:p

[4313B]

Ask and you shall receive....

Reviewed by: Jerome Nagel, Audiophile, from Mission

Product Model Year:
1995

Summary:
Big nasal sounding midrange no bass. Throw the crossover in the trash, and bi-amp it with electonic crossover, and you may stand a chance of getting a sembalance of some kind of sound. I would like to know how JBL couls sell this speaker with that lousy foam edge that you have to replace every 3-5 years. Could have used a nice cloth edge? I've done an extensive re-design of the crossover, and using monster cable instead of the string that JBL used. I have almost been able to achieve a decent sound. Still trying, and frustrated. Does anyone have any info, let me know..

Strengths:
Very well made drivers.

Weaknesses:
Lousy crossover, and cabinet designed incorrectly. Made to sell.

Similar Products Used:
B&W 801Yes, I have plenty of info, none of which he would understand.
His "primitive intellect wouldn't understand things like alloys and compositions and things with molecular structures..."

I guess any thing negative about jbl is perceived as garbage here.It depends entirely on who's presenting the negative remarks.

[Titanium Dome]

Why are you getting upset?
The members asked to see the review, so i posted it.
I guess any thing negative about jbl is perceived as garbage here.
I do not recall saying i do not like JBL,just have not heard any worthy of the living room yet.
I guess you guys are a real sensitive bunch.:p


But not too sensitive. Most of us are in the 88-93dB range when it comes to sensitivity. A couple of the members might be more like 96-100dB.

It appears that you're just driving us too hard to get the response you want.

[Robh3606]

Hello Mike33


I'm not upset at all it's just that those kind of reviews don't mean a thing. You can't give any weight to them, good or bad.

"I guess any thing negative about jbl is perceived as garbage here."

No we can take it, were big boys. However garbage is cleary garbage and that is exactly what that review is. Complaints based on your own personal experience is fine.

Boy this ones going south fast, a real klinker

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Mike33...

If you would like to carry on meaningful conversation about the merits of JBLs vs. other speakers we can do that, but you have to realize that when you come to a specialized forum where people come to discuss a brand of speakers that they hold in high esteem, you have to respect their feelings and speak accordingly. Try to discover why we like them and make up your mind for yourself.

Posting a "review" that is a half assed commentary by someone who obviously shouldn't be spouting off in public is an obvious "see I told you so"... it doesn't make your case, and is rude. I posted my opinions about why someone may not like the 4430... every speaker has flaws... no one has made a perfect loudspeaker yet, but that isn't the point.

I am not going to post comments on a Harley forum about how lame their antiquated bikes are compared to XYZ... that is disrespectful and stupid. Harleys are great at what they do, and other bikes have other things to offer.

It seems you are either inept or a shit stirrer. That's fine. If you get off on being a shit stirrer do it elsewhere. If I have offended you because you are indeed inept... I am sorry, please think more carefully before posting.

Widget

[johnaec]

Mike - I agree with Zilch - let us know where you're located, and if someone's near to you, there might be the opportunity to have a listen to some of the systems people are talking about.

John

[4313B]

What? Are you on glue? You don't know this guy. You'd let him in your house?

[johnaec]

What? Are you on glue? You don't know this guy. You'd let him in your house?Well, call me an optimist, but at least he started right by going after JBL's. Maybe we need to see him stick around for a while, but geez, haven't you ever let anyone into your house when they come by to buy something? I agree, caution should be the order of the day with someone you don't know - 'just have to consider 'em case by case...

John

[4313B]

haven't you ever let anyone into your house when they come by to buy something?Only if they put those little booties on their shoes first. :p

[Mike Caldwell]

Hello
I saw this post start yesterday and did not get a chance to get back to till now.
As many people have said or implied... ANY and I say ANY speaker can be blown or damaged from trying to get it to operate outside of it's design window, it's just the laws of physics. I would guess in your system you are applying a lot of low boost at frequencies that speaker has no way of ever reproducing. A speaker that comes apart as yours is a classic sign of over excursion. Get the speakers repaired, add a sub to the system and high pass the signal to your JBL's around 70 or 80hz.

Mike Caldwell

[kingjames]

I'm probably the stupidest person on this forum when trying to explain the technical advantages of buying a JBL speaker but, I can tell this guy would never have appreciated my boxes of air that I was selling let alone a real JBL speaker.:barf:

[Zilch]

Zilch is so enamored that he refers to all two ways as 4430s.;)Heh. I have "Vision" is what.... :p


What? Are you on glue? You don't know this guy. You'd let him in your house?4628B's I can demo in a parking lot.

[Across town, if necessary.... :D ]

[4313B]

4628B's I can demo in a parking lot.

[Across town, if necessary.... :D ]Ah! :yes:

[JBLnsince1959]

I can tell this guy would never have appreciated my boxes of air that I was selling let alone a real JBL speaker.:barf:

That my friend is the SMARTEST thing I've seen on this thread so far.

[Mike33]

Anyway, i will keep a lookout for a good pair of speakers.
Take care guys.

[mikebake]

Huh? What? I came to the party late; did I miss anything?

[4313B]

Someone posted the meaning of life at one point but then deleted it, and there's a nice photo of a battery of L220's, otherwise, no, you didn't miss anything.

[JBLnsince1959]

Anyway, i will keep a lookout for a good pair of speakers.
Take care guys.

seriously tho, try the pro speakers from JBL and I think you'll have a speaker that can handle what you want.

[mikebake]

Someone posted the meaning of life at one point but then deleted it, and there's a nice photo of a battery of L220's, otherwise, no, you didn't miss anything.

Is there any beer or munchies left?

[JBLnsince1959]

Someone posted the meaning of life at one point but then deleted it, and there's a nice photo of a battery of L220's, otherwise, no, you didn't miss anything.


DAMN...I've been trying to find the meaning of life with the search feature in this forum and I haven't been able to find it.....and now it's gone..crap...

[JBLnsince1959]

Is there any beer or munchies left?

finished those off during the game. I'm a little drunk right now so my manners aren't what they usually are... :D

[Audiobeer]

finished those off during the game. I'm a little drunk right now so my manners aren't what they usually are... :D


Don't sweat it. He obviously was never looking for quality based on good research. Anyway all is not lost, If he turns them sideways are leaves them upright depending on his needs they will still make a great troll step ladder for him to get up to his keyboard. ;)

[rgrjit8]

You JBL monomaniacs!:banghead:

You've become all defensive about the speakers when the real problem, obviously, is that damned Bryston amp!
I'll trade him straight up for a Yamaha integrated with the highly desirable U-connectors to separate the preamp.:coolness:

I won't even request extra money to keep the deal from being so one-sided.
How cool is that?:thmbsup:

[pangea]

Is there any beer or munchies left?

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

BR
Roland

[Steve K]

You guys are funny! You know that, don't you?:applaud:

[Mike33]

Why did JBL stop making the drivers/crossovers/speakers etc that you guys are fond of?
Can you get brand new speakers from JBL that are just as good or better?
You would think so......technology has come along way since the 70s.

[4313B]

Because there is no market for them.

Yes.

Yes.

[hapy._.face]

Why did JBL stop making the drivers/crossovers/speakers etc that you guys are fond of?
Can you get brand new speakers from JBL that are just as good or better?
You would think so......technology has come along way since the 70s.



Why did the Beatles get weird? How profitable would Chevy have been if they kept making the Chevelle SS over and over and over again..? Cool car- but they hit the market well and moved on to an ever changing market. Hence- the product offerings changed.

And HELL YES you can get a modern day JBL that outperforms the ones from the 70's. Got 30 grand??

For the life of me I cannot tell if you are just trying to irritate us- or perhaps you are having difficulty trying to grasp what's going on here. If the latter is true, I apologize.

[4313B]

I take the third sentence as evidence that he is.

[Steelyfan]

Earlier in the thread, patient members have tried in vain to explain
what LH is about, and how it works, but he sticks to his bad habits.
Time to close the thread ?

[Mr. Widget]

Why did JBL stop making the drivers/crossovers/speakers etc that you guys are fond of?To elaborate on Giskard's answer... the market changes and a company makes adjustments. Many of us that love the vintage stuff realize that improvements have been made... but a great product is still a great product... look at vintage cars... they are not as nimble or safe as modern cars... but they are still a kick in the pants.



Can you get brand new speakers from JBL that are just as good or better?We have mentioned several already... you limited yourself out of that market by placing a low cost of entry requirement. The beauty is that by going with the older product you can get an excellent pair of speakers for $1500 or less.



You would think so......technology has come along way since the 70s.So has JBL, look at the Project Array Series and K2 series at JBL.com

We are starting to get circular here...


Widget

[4313B]

The beauty is that by going with the older product you can get an excellent pair of speakers for $1500 or less.And that's the only reason I can think of to go with the older products.

[intotubes]

And that's the only reason I can think of to go with the older products.
Very well put. That's the category I'm in. Theres no way I could afford new speakers that sound as good as my vintage Altecs and Klipsch.

[hapy._.face]

Earlier in the thread, patient members have tried in vain to explain
what LH is about, and how it works, but he sticks to his bad habits.
Time to close the thread ?

I vote "yes" I'm not working on commission here. Furthermore- I think the whole thread was a long joke that tried the patience of nice people.

[Mike33]

And HELL YES you can get a modern day JBL that outperforms the ones from the 70's. Got 30 grand??















I do not understand your notion, again saying you need $30,000 to get good modern JBL speakers.......that is crazy.
I am not trying to buy enough speakers for AC/DC to tour with!

[Mike33]

To elaborate on Giskard's answer... the market changes and a company makes adjustments. Many of us that love the vintage stuff realize that improvements have been made... but a great product is still a great product... look at vintage cars... they are not as nimble or safe as modern cars... but they are still a kick in the pants.

We have mentioned several already... you limited yourself out of that market by placing a low cost of entry requirement. The beauty is that by going with the older product you can get an excellent pair of speakers for $1500 or less.

So has JBL, look at the Project Array Series and K2 series at JBL.com

We are starting to get circular here...


Widget

Thanks Widget and other members, guess by what some members have said it can take 2 years to find a good set on ebay etc........hope i do not have to wait that long!
The 3 Pairs of JBL's the one member has posted a picture of look interesting........They must push some bass and take some decent power by the looks of them.
I am in Canada by the way, so there is not much of a selection up here, any shop that sells JBL is selling the cheapo's......(future shop/best buy etc).

[hapy._.face]

I do not understand your notion, again saying you need $30,000 to get good modern JBL speakers.......that is crazy.
I am not trying to buy enough speakers for AC/DC to tour with!

read the whole sentence: to outperform ones from the 70's (as an example). JBL made incredible speakers all through the 70's and early 80's. That stretch earned them a LOT of respect with studio engineers and audiophiles. Granted, they have made some garbage over the years- but '...they (JBL) never left the high-end.' Of course you don't need to spend 30K to get great JBL speakers- spend what you want. Just don't expect your $200 pair to do anything magic.

http://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/price-lists/1970-1999-prices.htm

Every dollar I have invested in JBL's are worth twice what I paid (at least). I can enjoy what I have and know (after long hard searching and auditioning) that I would be hard pressed to find its sonic equal for the same money- regardless of when it was made. My JBL's are rugged enough to be rebuilt over and over- and they increase in value every second. How well do your stock investments playback music? Perhaps we are coming off snobbish-but investing (YES INVESTING) in a pair of real JBL's is never a total loss- sell em if you don't like em. You likely make profit.

[mikebake]

The easy way is to plunk down money you say you don't want to spend and get some good current JBL's. The other route requires more time/patience/effort in return for spending less money. The good stuff isn't run of the mill so it's worth working towards for some people. There generally isn't a quick JBL fix for cheap $.

[hapy._.face]

The easy way is to plunk down money you say you don't want to spend and get some good current JBL's. The other route requires more time/patience/effort in return for spending less money. The good stuff isn't run of the mill so it's worth working towards for some people. There generally isn't a quick JBL fix for cheap $.

lol. I hear ya Mike! But he says he has $1500.00 budget and that should get him a decent set up!! Forum members have already offered a few suggestions...

[scott fitlin]

I do not understand your notion, again saying you need $30,000 to get good modern JBL speakers.......that is crazy.
I am not trying to buy enough speakers for AC/DC to tour with!These days YOU wont get ENOUGH speakers for AC/DC to tour with for $30,000. We are talking about a pair of speakers. There are pairs, yes pairs of speakers that cost 30G,s. 75G,s and over 100G,s for a pair of speakers!

But, no, you dont have to spend 30G,s to get good JBL,s! You DO have to KNOW what JBL,s actually will perform the way you want, and have the patience to shop them via eBay or other well known avenues for super vintage and semi current gear. As well as developing some knowledge and skills for set up and getting the best and proper results from your system. It isnt just plug and play. And the higher up the food chain you go, as in the better the speakers and gear, the more critical setting up, and proper placement become!

About JBL and power handling, well, JBL is among the best for high power handling, BUT, NOT every speaker that has or has ever had the famous 3 letters on it was top of the line! They make some of the BEST speakers in the world, as well as some that are designed to capitalize and profit off of their ever so famous name and legacy! This shouldnt be anything new, look at cars! Is every Mercedes in their line of the same quality? Is a $35,000 Mercedes as good as an $86,000 Mercedes?

There is a wealth of information here on this forum, and should you actually decide to get a pair of JBL,s really worth having, people here can really help you towards getting absolutely incredible sound from them! But L80,s arent L300,s! Nor were they designed to be, they fit a certain pricepoint, and for what they were they were OK, maybe better than other manufacturers products at the same pricepoint of the same period, but not top of the line. As good as audio was in the 70,s and 80,s, there was alot of junk and hype too, just like it is today! Alot of good items, and some that aint worth the effort to go and listen to them.

Im a pro user, I use alot of JBL and Altec, and I dont have speaker failure problems, very rare for me. I know the Bryston 4B very well, and it produces quite alot of power, especially for home use. This amp driving an older pair of speakers, whose surrounds and VC adhesives were probably dried out, and brittle, could very easily cause the exact damage you experienced. It has huge power supplies, and when you push it, it delivers, especially in the lower frequencies! Unfortunately, foam surrounds needing replacement after years of being in the enviroment is a fact of life. Cloth surrounds do last longer, but, woofers that use cloth surrounds do not sound like woofers that use foam surrounds. Theres a reason a speaker designer/engineer of a company chooses to have a driver made the way they do! But, you buy a vintage set of speakers with foam surrounds, it,s almost always a given your gonna have to re-foam the woofers.

FWIW, 2 years ago, I was cleaning my JBL 2402 bullet tweeters, I had dissasembled them to clean the aluminum horn and bullet throughly, and inspect my diaphragms, and I found, out of 16 units, 1 where the VC adhesive had let go, and half the diaphragm wasnt attached to the VC former, the date of manufacture on this particular diaphragm? Mar 2,`84!!!!!!!!!!!! When did I say I checked it? 2004! And, it still worked, but I got a new diaphragm and replaced it! 20 years, commercial, High SPL, dance music sound system! I say, NOT BAD! I assure you, you do not play your system as hard, nor as many hours as my system runs!

These days, good things cost money, lots of it! But, if you have a good eye, good knowledge, and patience, you can come out with a great deal off Ebay, and there are people here that will help you in your quest for the best, at reasonable pricing, but ya gotta be nice to us!

:)

[jbl4ever]

Mike check out some of these not in any order
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143605593
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143310408
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1141426399
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143590238
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143085351
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1144358644
Mike the last ones were their biggest monitor and in Canada:bouncy:
Hope this helps and I am not the owner of these listed

[Mike33]

Mike check out some of these not in any order
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143605593
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143310408
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1141426399
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143590238
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1143085351
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1144358644
Mike the last ones were their biggest monitor and in Canada:bouncy:
Hope this helps and I am not the owner of these listed

Thanks for taking the time, the l300's look nice.
Those ones in Canada i actually saw in person and never knew anything about them, they are huge!
Same person has a pair of 4311's (i think that was the model)which look kinda like the l100, but the mids dustcaps were pushed in etc, maybe i should have picked them up.......

[scott fitlin]

Someone check those L300,s, I think they each have different woofer cones?

I think if you can find a pair of L300,s that fall within your budget, well, you might have to fork over a couple more bucks than originally intended, you`d be happy with those!

[speakerdave]

Mike33, can you build an enclosure?

[norealtalent]

Partial
... if you have a good eye, good knowledge, and patience, you can come out with a great deal off Ebay, and there are people here that will help you in your quest for the best, at reasonable pricing, but ya gotta be nice to us!

:) Especially that last part.:bouncy:

[John]

Mike33 Wow Your in Canada!!! That narrows it down a bit. So your in the G.T.A.




Hey the seller with the 4350's I have talked too before, he sell's on ebay. Take it from me, those 4350,s were put togeather with parts from all over, does not mean it's bad but it is not a virgin. And those cabinets will need a major overhaul.

[edgewound]

Someone check those L300,s, I think they each have different woofer cones?

I think if you can find a pair of L300,s that fall within your budget, well, you might have to fork over a couple more bucks than originally intended, you`d be happy with those!

That front pic of the L300....it has the wrong woofer...it looks like a 130A or a 2220...if it's JBL....anyhow, it's not right like Scotty said.

[Steve Gonzales]

E140?

[Steve Gonzales]

Mike, it looks like you're in The Great White North. Contact member John (he posted on this thread) with a Personal Message ( click on his name to select this option). If you could arrange to hear a pair of big JBL's I'm sure you could get a better direction. Again, Good luck.

[edgewound]

E140?

Nope....smooth, curvilinear cone, paper dome

[scott fitlin]

Nope....smooth, curvilinear cone, paper dome2220?

[pangea]

It's a 2220 for sure.

BR
Roland

[Regis]

Don't buy the L-300's (even a correct pair). They have the crappy foam surrounds that only stand up to a couple of decades of hard use before you have to replace them for $30 or so. From personal experience, they hardly put out any sound at all. I have to lean wa-a-ay forward to discern anything coming from the heavy boxes at all. Damn, where's the sound. Oh, forgot to turn the stereo on :D .

Believe me, with about 200 watts per channel, you will 'cry uncle' long before the L-300's do. I can easily hear them on the street 75 feet in front of the house and that's with all the doors and windows closed (yah, the neighbors better like what I'm listening to).
A pair of L-65's will work very, very well too. Or the L100T's are an even better bang for the buck. Plenty-o-volume for most any sane person.

[4313B]

Damn, where's the sound. Oh, forgot to turn the stereo on :D .I hate when that happens! :banghead:

:rotfl:

[Regis]

I hate when that happens! :banghead:

:rotfl:

Worse is when you forget to TURN THE VOLUME down before the speakers kick on! Heart attack City! :p

[Mike33]

I know i said i was not interested in a sub but what do you guys think of the L212 system?
Also locally there is a pair of reconed L112 but the price seems steep at $800 Canadian.

T.I.A.

[hapy._.face]

I know i said i was not interested in a sub but what do you guys think of the L212 system?
Also locally there is a pair of reconed L112 but the price seems steep at $800 Canadian.

T.I.A.

Use the "search" feature to learn more about the L212- there is enough documented opinion on this forum regarding that system to keep you reading for days. If you want the quick easy answer to your question: It's not for you. The L212 is refined and a bit delicate, and needs a little work to get it to the level most enjoy it at. I like mine. But then again, why should my opinion matter? I'm not an audiophile magazine reviewer or anything. FWIW, lots of the guys on this forum are quite fond of the L212- some hate it. Here is my personal take on it (results will vary)

Pros-
1. Looks
2. pretty well balanced & time aligned
3. The 112A/H is an awesome midbass driver!!
4. Nearly perfect coherence between the sub & sat
5. Decent imaging
6. Plays louder than one would think
7. Unquestionable JBL historical significance (world's first sub/sat)
8. Goes down to 20Hz (sort of...)
9. Overall good performer, and quite versatile

Cons-
1. Looks (not mirror imaged- cheap manufacturing trick)
2. The ultrabass sub unit is only 1 driver and is underpowered at that= blurred transient response(s)= driver mechanical disortion
3. 066 is obsolete and generally not serviceable
4. 112A/H is obsolete and generally not serviceable
5. The crossovers need help to really open her up
6. MIDRANGE (as in too little). This is likely the result of my orignal crossover config.
7. You really need two ultrabass units- or two different subs to play most music or HT well
8. Build quality is kinda cheesy- no attention to detail.

Look, I still like the L212- but I outgrew it in a week. A little work- and they can be amazing I'm sure. However, based on your previous posts- I'm gonna say this is not the speaker for you. Keep looking for a vintage studio monitor, L200, L300, etc...Plenty to choose from. Worth the hunt.