eq questions

[eyedoc]

Bo's thread brought up an interesting point. I know that using an eq is a love/hate topic, but assuming that there is a need for one, is there such a thing as a good one? I have not used one for 20 years because of the understanding that they add too much distortion and usually make music sound worse. Maybe this is because of the "smiling" overused by some...

I have been thinking about this for a while, and this is my plight. I have in the main listening room a pair of 100t3 for my front speakers. I have a second pair of 100t3's in the livingroom/dining room that are hooked up as 'speaker b' through the same amp/system. The pair in the living room stand infront of a regular drywall wall. These sound great. The pair in the 'theater room' sit in front of a wall of brick. These sound like they have a head-cold. I have tried several room dampening devices, and it is now much better, but still not as good as the other room. With this is mind, is my best option to try an eq? I know that the best option is to remove the fireplace as it is not safe to use in it's present condition, but that task is not at the top of the "honey do list". Any thoughts? By the way, amp is either my MacIntosh 250, of my Onkyo Integra 506.

kevin.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Bo's thread brought up an interesting point. The pair in the 'theater room' sit in front of a wall of brick. These sound like they have a head-cold. kevin.



May I suggest the problem could be sound reflections? Try hanging a large piece of porous foam (NOT STYROFOAM) on the brick wall behind each speaker (4 times the size of the speaker) and I suspect you will hear a huge difference. Place the foam panel in the center behind the speaker.

Another solution would be to cut out a hole the size of the speaker and have the foam flush with the baffle and sticking out 1 foot all the way around the speaker. Keep us posted.


Ken

[Mr. Widget]

Virtually any system can be improved by subtle EQ adjustments. Unfortunately, I believe most systems with EQ are not improved due to improper EQ settings. Even with adequate measuring gear, you need to use great care in EQing. It is also very important that you get an EQ that is of the same quality or higher than the rest of your system. Do some searches... several have been recommended.

As Ken was suggesting, it is always better to focus on trying to fix the room first.


Widget

[eyedoc]

May I suggest the problem could be sound reflections? Try hanging a large piece of porous foam (NOT STYROFOAM) on the brick wall behind each speaker (4 times the size of the speaker) and I suspect you will hear a huge difference. Place the foam panel in the center behind the speaker.

Another solution would be to cut out a hole the size of the speaker and have the foam flush with the baffle and sticking out 1 foot all the way around the speaker. Keep us posted.


Ken

Thanks ken, but as wify is also in the room, there is a limit to the amount of foam that I (she) can live with. The best I have come up with wo far is to use a garbage bag filled with packing peanuts behind each speaker. I found that on an AudioGone link several months ago, and it did quite a lot. Of course I still have two gargage bags in the family room now:blink:
I have also been thinking about going to the local music store and buying recording studio foam, but again, there is that wify part...

[JuniorJBL]

As Ken said, try the foam so you can get an idea if this IS the problem or not. This way you could research other ways to get what you want and that has WAF!;)

[Zilch]

EQ is a compromise. Every source/recording is different in detail.

The only rational approach incorporates measurement.

First thing you discover is how badly your speakers actually suck, and how incompetently you've set up your system.

I suppose experts with beaucoup experience aligning systems and rooms can do it by ear.

Not me, nope....

[Titanium Dome]

As Ken said, try the foam so you can get an idea if this IS the problem or not. This way you could research other ways to get what you want and that has WAF!;)

Especially if she's part of the research team. :bouncy:

[Ken Pachkowsky]

to use a garbage bag filled with packing peanuts behind each speaker. but again, there is that wify part...

Well, you do not want styrofoam (peanuts) it does not absorb well. You will also get reflections off the smooth surface of the plastic bag as well.

Trust me, get some foam and bevel it (bread Knife) to make it look somewhat artsy fartsy and mount it around the speakers, protruding out about 6 inches.

Ken

[JuniorJBL]

Especially if she's part of the research team. :bouncy:

Very important note here.;)

I made some tall picture frames 2'x6' and put foam in them covered by grill cloth and the frames painted to match my trim in the room. My wife likes them quite a bit.

I am not saying your wife will like them or not but this is just an idea of what you can do.

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Very important note here.;)

I made some tall picture frames 2'x6' and put foam in them covered by grill cloth and the frames painted to match my trim in the room. My wife likes them quite a bit.

I am not saying your wife will like them or not but this is just an idea of what you can do.

This is very creative and workable solution. I will definately explore this myself. Thanks for the great tip!

Ken

[JuniorJBL]

This is very creative and workable solution. I will definately explore this myself. Thanks for the great tip!

Ken

Ken you can also use fiberglass board (like the stuff they use for HVAC ducts).

You can get it in different thicknesses and they work for different frequencies.

I had a web site at one time telling this info and I will try to find it again.
Shane

[Ken Pachkowsky]

Ken you can also use fiberglass board (like the stuff they use for HVAC ducts).

You can get it in different thicknesses and they work for different frequencies.

I had a web site at one time telling this info and I will try to find it again.
Shane

Fantastic, I hope you can find the link.

Thanks again. You could use some nice framing and make it quite attractive by adding some abstract wood strips using a band saw and it would look like art without compromising the function. I never considered grill cloth as a solution to covering the foam or insulation and that makes all the difference in having it look nice in a living room environment.

Very excited about the possibilities.

Ken

[JuniorJBL]

Another thing I did when sound deadening was not what I needed was build CD/DVD racks and hung them on the wall where I needed "sound defraction".


The other option is to cover a sound defraction panel in grill cloth.

The reason I bring this up is because sometimes a room is dead enough and does not need "deadening" but needs diffraction to break up frequencies and difffract them in many directions.

[JuniorJBL]

I hope this thread has not taken away from what you are looking for if so PM me and I will remove my posts.

Ken Here is the web site:
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm


Scroll down a bit.
Shane

[eyedoc]

As Ken said, try the foam so you can get an idea if this IS the problem or not. This way you could research other ways to get what you want and that has WAF!;)

Ok, I have to admit... what is WAF?

Wow. Great ideas. Would you assume that regular furnature foam is essentially the same as the prefab version, after mutilation with knife of course? I really like the idea of the frame and grill material. I will have to work toward the foam around the speakers. In fact, I am not really sure how to bring that idea up...

[louped garouv]

wife acceptance/approval factor :banghead:

[eyedoc]

Hi Shane
No, there is no need to remove anything! I am here to learn and to share in my love for the sound. I am all over the idea to improve the setup however possible. Thank you very much for your input. I will look into the possibilities. :)

[JuniorJBL]

Ok, I have to admit... what is WAF?



Wife acceptance factor

[eyedoc]

:slink:
wife acceptance/approval factor :banghead:

:dont-know

I guess that it i didn't know what it was, than I probably havn't had it:crying:

[JuniorJBL]

:slink:

:dont-know

I guess that it i didn't know what it was, than I probably havn't had it:crying:

:rotfl:

[frank23]

WAF= Wife Acceptance Factor

one of THE most important factors in loudspeaker design!

my theory is that because of the way humans interprete sound, equalizing is irrelevant when you have used quality drivers and crossover design and components. When somebody is around a corner and speaks to you, you still know who it is, but his tonal balance has shifted quite a lot. So recognition is hardly influenced by the tonal balance.

I have set up my speakers the way they are. I have no tone controls on my amp. And I enjoy about all of my CD's. Transparency and freedom of fatique [good capacitors!] are all it takes.

I like it the JBL way does it: one pot for presence, the other for brilliance. They affect large parts of the frequency spectrum and not small parts like an equalizer.

Maybe I'm blessed with my room and you should try experimenting with placement in your room.

frank

[hapy._.face]

I have a need for an EQ. Any advice on this one I found on eBAy? I've never owned an EQ, but I love old crown stuff. Is it a good one?? (looks like it to me...)

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-VINTAGE-CROWN-EQ2-EQ-2-22-channel-EQ-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ5858099700QQcategoryZ3271QQssPage NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks, Mike

[louped garouv]

I'd buy that for a dollar......


:D

even though I never used one b4 -- a paperweight or boat anchor that size would cost way more than .99 if it doesn't turn out to be your cup of tea

[hapy._.face]

'....a paperweight or boat anchor that size would cost way more than .99 if it doesn't turn out to be your cup of tea.'


lol. she's a biggen alright- I just wonder if it degrades the signal by the time it runs through all of that "stuff". I haven't a clue. I do respect the Crown name, though...

[Zilch]

In fact, I am not really sure how to bring that idea up..."Honey, don't you think some nice Japanese folding screens would look good behind the speakers there? I will do them in the fabric color of your choice. JBL Blue would be nice, I bet."

"Eames made some niced curved ones. Maybe I could do that, if you like...." ;)

[boputnam]

I have not used one for 20 years because of the understanding that they add too much distortion and usually make music sound worse. Hi, Kevin...

EQ's can impart phasing issues into the signal, thus "less (correction) is more (pleasing results)" with EQ's. That said, cost = filter quality. The more cost, the better the results. Mind Widget's words.

The most important aspect of proper EQ, is collecting meaningful acoustic measurements. What exactly is going on in the room...? Far too often, people "EQ to taste", and produce either a smile curve (the old Loudness contour), or something that emphasizes some frequencies in some track they like. Poor approach yields poor results.

Last weekend I was re-racking the rehearsal studio and racking-up a smaller rig for some trio work my lead singer is doing. All of my systems are oversized for those venues, so he needed something simpler. Using SmaartLIVE, I established separate EQ's settings on three EQ's (dbx1231, Ashly Protea 2.42GS (digital) and Meyer CP-10) for three separate cabinets (mains, EV wedges and some unknown wedges). I think that is 3! (3 Factorial) permutations. The dbx is running as two separate mono channels (different cabinets on each channel), as is the Meyer, while the Protea is being used in a dual-channel (stereo) mode.

Using the Earthworks M30BX, each cabinet was measured one at a time, one EQ at a time, and settings established. The results were incredible. In FFT (Transfer) mode, I could flatten each cabinet's response quite delicately, and produce a really great sound, regardless of the cabinet. Each has it's own acoustic EQ "needs" - some of the CD's are small diameter with small throats and are not pleasing sounding - but each can be, and was, tamed.

The point is, before you move your chimney, collect some high quality measurements of what is going on. Collect some real data, in a non-subjective manner. Look at the curve, and understand what is happening. Tweak the Lpads, and note the differences. Position the cabinets differently and measure again. Then, try a proper EQ and see if you can impart "taming" filtering that improves the acoustic response.

Also, as an aside, I found Onkyo's, which I thought I really loved, serously lack LF output - they are far from flat. Mine were all eBay'ed a long, long time ago. But this reminds of Widget's words, in part - you cannot EQ around gear that is producing a biased response. Start flat, stay flat.