slow and clean 4435's maybe ?

[kartsmart]

This is round 2 for this project , scrape the last one because I moved to fast and thought to slow , so Im going to ask a lot of questions and the road I take nobody knows untill its done. http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif
my first plan was to clone a system sold by E-speaker / a TAD mtm arangement. I beleave it was the 1601's and the big tad wooden horn and driver. sealed box EQed and sound correction system.
Were I went wrong, is that I thought I could get away with a 1" compression driver (2420) and a low dollar horn (2345) and get the 2 drivers to mate at the x-over. to fix the problem I looked into a larger up graded horn like the 36"slant plate or the wood smith horn , but can't morage the house to do it ( just to much cash the wife would have a fit/ well she's gone now ! but so is my money.
my though's are now is maybe a
2344A horn and still using the 2420 drivers
2123 mid bass or maybe a 8"
1602's in a 2 1/2 way ?
DBX drive rack studio
lets see where this goes ? http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/bouncy.gif

[kartsmart]

WHERE'S MY 2 CENTS http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif does this mean I'm making cents http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/bouncy.gif lol

[remusr]

My condolences on the wife thing. I went through that 6yrs ago.

On the horn side there seem to be several 2397's coming out of the woodwork for $600 range. Not a big mortgage and they do look cool with an expanding x-section unlike those discussed and built by forum dudes which have much finer wood finishes! I expect that xsection would affect sound/efficiency/cutoff some.
- Roy

[Mr. Widget]

The TAD 1602 is a nice woofer that goes down the deepest in the TAD 15" line (16"). It isn't your best bet for crossing over above 600Hz though. The JBL 2235 is a bit better sounding at higher frequencies and the uber expensive JBL 1500AL is better still. This combined with the fact that the 2420 sounds best when it isn't asked to go below 1200Hz makes me think you should definitely consider adding a midbass driver in there.

In the case of the 2123, it has a very strong rising response that needs to be tamed. It can be done with an external EQ, but then you will be equalizing the entire system. It would be best if you could EQ just that driver. If you aren't up on passive filtering, you may want to pass on it. Since it appears you are not locked into any particular midbass driver, you might want to look at your options.

As for the 2344 horn... as part of the 4430/35 it has been lovingly massaged. I wouldn't seek it out as an easy DIY project horn. I think you may be better off with a well damped Altec 511 horn. They are large, but typically quite inexpensive especially if you buy them as singles. You may need to repaint them to match. It is possible you may want to try building a pair of the smaller 1" smith horns that have been built by a few members here. Another possibility is to get a pair of "salad bowl" tractrix horns.


Widget

[hapy._.face]

[QUOTE=kartsmart]...the wife would have a fit/ well she's gone now ! ...maybe a
2344A horn... /QUOTE]

Yeah, nothing makes you hornier than when the wife is out of the picture..

Sounds like a nice project. :)

[Titanium Dome]

[QUOTE=kartsmart]...the wife would have a fit/ well she's gone now ! ...maybe a
2344A horn... /QUOTE]

Yeah, nothing makes you hornier than when the wife is out of the picture..

Sounds like a nice project. :)


Finally, a justification for horns that I can understand. :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Robh3606]

Hmm what are they called Dolly Partons?? Could be something to that


Will add my 2 cents later,

Widget you sure you don't have your 10's confused. The 2012 certainly has but the 2123 isn't all that bad.

You going to be active using the DBX Drive Trac??



Rob:)

[kartsmart]

There is a few area's I would to try and cover.
a
As for passive or active crossover and filtering , Could a EQ be added between the DBX and the amp (preamp level) to EQ the driver rather than the whole system and have the same results as a passive filter. / Is there a chance the DBX studio drive rack already has this feature on board? http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif

Should I use one or two TAD 1602 bass drivers per channel ( I have 4 ). The room size is 14x22x9 . If 2 drivers were to be used what kind of arangement would I use / maybe a sealed box for one as a upper bass and the other ported, or ported both full bass range common chamber or 2 chambers, or as I have seen before both in a common box as a 2 1/2 way and the lower bass speaker will use the upper bass speaker as a passive radiator ? or what? http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif

As for the midbass, I agree there is a gap between the TAD 1602 and the 2420 drivers that need to be filled.
I feel this area be based for optimum balance for what ever horn I use (witch one ?)or maybe not a horn at all.
I also have a pair of ess amt 1A air motion transformer's if they can be of any use. I know some people loved them and others hated them , but when they were used with a tube amp and biamped I thought they weren't to bad. the tube amp sweeted the harshness that that they had.

[Robh3606]

Well for openers give this a read if you have not already. I think it would help you and answer some of your questions. It's what got me fired up years ago to try my hand at a smaller personalized version. There is a lot of good general information in it you could apply to your own system when you build it.

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/audiophile.htm


With the woofers I would build a test box and run them both ways to see which you happen to like best. Nothing fancy just a plain braced MDF box set-up so you can block off and change port tubes. You can jury rig the midrange sub enclosure and horn on a seperate baffle plate to see if the drivers set works and also before you invest time and money into your finished cabinets.

For a midrange drivers you can use 8" 2118, 10's 2122/2123/2012 or 12's 2202/2204. Decide what you need of if you can audition, have a listen at a friends home.

On the horn??? That you should have a listen if you can. You can take a 2420/2425/2426 and they will sound a bit different depending on the horn used. If you can, try and get a listen. You could find a horn your really don't like so don't get them blind unless you are willing to dump them back onto E-Bay. May take you a couple of tries to find what you really like or you could get lucky on the first shot.

With EQ sure you can drop an EQ in between the crossover and the amps. Not to sure I would use it to EQ the speaker drivers though. What you would really need is a very flexible parametric. A 1/3 octave just would not work. You may have a parametric already built in your crossover if it is a digital unit. You could also EQ the drivers using passive components even though you are bi/tri amping. You can drop passive driver EQ networks in line to the drivers. If you where using a 2344 as an example you would use the passive compensation network from the 4430/35.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Widget you sure you don't have your 10's confused. The 2012 certainly has but the 2123 isn't all that bad.No... not all that bad... can even be quite good, but I don't think it is plug and play either.


Well for openers give this a read ...It certainly has gotten many fired up... I think it is a bit of a disservice though as many people miss the subtleties like the extensive measurement and alignment that Drew was able to do that us mere mortals can not do. Looking at this system superficially it would suggest that it is fine to run two or three systems at one end of your listening room... certainly you can, some people do, but while you may gain a large diffuse sound, you are certain to loose clarity, image specificity, and quality. But I digress...



For a midrange drivers you can use 8" 2118, 10's 2122/2123/2012 or 12's 2202/2204. Decide what you need of if you can audition, have a listen at a friends home.

On the horn??? That you should have a listen if you can. You can take a 2420/2425/2426 and they will sound a bit different depending on the horn used. If you can, try and get a listen. You could find a horn your really don't like so don't get them blind unless you are willing to dump them back onto E-Bay. May take you a couple of tries to find what you really like or you could get lucky on the first shot.I'd suggest, if you want something better than buying a stock pair of 4435s... you'll need to buy several mids and horns and play around with them until you find a combo that work together and you like. If you run out and buy a pair of mids or horns and expect them to be your final solution, you'll either become frustrated with the sound or accept a compromise. The 4435 like all of JBL's serious monitors were developed by people with decades of experience and piles of drivers to try.

The journey is long and fun... as Rob suggests be prepared to buy and sell a few items on eBay, or save up a few bucks sell the TADs and buy a nice pair of 4435s.

Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Why not build this;

Bi amp at 300 hz and use the 3135 network with a 2344 horn and the 2420 (you can get them if you know where to look) I originally used an Audax hi sensitivity 8 inch driver then the 2122H.

[Mr. Widget]

Ian,

Why did you move away from the 2344 horn and go with the 2307?

Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Ian,

Why did you move away from the 2344 horn and go with the 2307?

Widget

What? :offtopic:

If you want the long anwser use the serach button. Yawn...:snore:

The short answer is I went and had a damm good listen to the 4343's I build 20 odd years earlier and I woke up.:spchless:

I think that is a good enough reason. :D

Actually I hold Ken and Bo fully responsible.

Ken go my interest in the 4345 and I knew I was on the right track when he sold them to Bo (sorry Ken)

Bo so kindly measured up baffles for me.

It depends on your room. My room suits the 2308/ 2308 and 2405 config better.

And the ladies prefer the 4343 look of course.

Ian

[Robh3606]

Or these.

Widget brought up a good point. You need to have some kind of measurement system to be able to build any of these systems. Even if you do a clone of a system you need to be able to verify driver phase, crossover slopes, and your in room frequency response. Ian has an excellent method he uses to set up driver levels on his 4345's using readilly available software that won't bankrupt you. You can also use an RTA for some basic measurements and all of what is listed above. It takes work and commitment and lots of mistakes to pull a DIY project off. You can always come to this board and we will try to help you.

"No... not all that bad... can even be quite good, but I don't think it is plug and play either."

Even if you do clones or buy a set of 4343's they are not plug and play. None of this stiff is. It all needs careful set-up to get the most out of it.


Robhttp://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Ian Mackenzie]

Why not evolve your system by starting out with what you've got..that''s what I did and most people around here rather and attempt to engineer the ultimate system from day one on a piece of paper which is foolish and doomed to failure as we have seen in certain circles.

I note the Tad web page states an upper recommended crossover point of 900hz for your woofer.

I would try it out and find a 2344 for your 2420 and run it as a two way and see how you go. I say this as its the easiest route with the most likely immediate degree success and the least expensive. As Earl posted in your other thread there are some similarities with the 2234 so you could try a 4435 configuration.

You can then grow with your project and as you gain more understanding and experience add a midrange driver or what ever later on.

By way of and example I initially started with a pair of Altec 515B woofers a ssub woofers and then crossed them over to a 2397 JBL horn with a 2420 driver and a converter.

It worked okay for a simple two way and while that may not fit the thinking of those with rose colored sunglasses and more money than sense it was good foundation. I then added a 077 slot radiator and at that point sort assistance of a friend with an IMP measurement system to refine my 3 way crossover. I learnt a lot from that exercise and then later added a pair 8 in audax mid cone for only $150! At this point I biamped the system with a Crown active crossover and the consenus was it was quite a good loudspeaker.

Looking critically at what I had I realised there were limitations with the 515B woofers so I sold them for a lot of money and bought some JBL 2245s which were more appropriate for my needs (and a vastly superior woofer for bass reflex use).

Soon after I determined there were time alignment issues with the horn, mid cone and slot that could not be easily corrected and I took a risk and bought a pair of JBL 2344 from Westbury Audio in Canada for about $200.00

The risk paid off but not without some help.

I played for a month or so with various CD eq schemes and then one day I sent an email to JBL and they sent me schematics for the 3134 and 3135 (long before they were on the JBL web page).

After building up these neworks with Hovland capacitors I stopped using the 2397 and the 077 slot and sold them off and there I was with a nice 3 way system. I rounded out the system by upgrading with a JBL 2122H mid cone.

The fact that I rebuilt this system into a JBL 4345 is another story and it was really the challenge and personal preference.

A 3 way system is much easier to tune and adjust, a 2 way simpler still, and a 4 way is a devil to tune but when done properly the results are impressive to say the least, particularly a JBL design like the 4345.

I trust these thoughts will give you some perspective on reality.

Ian

Edit 2907 posts..about time I retired.

[kartsmart]

I retried with what I have, I really dont think its going to work as a 2 way! the sound is very disapointing, the lower mids just don't have that punch, not impressive at all. I think my next step is to add a cone mid. to cover say 250 hz through say 3k.
I orded 1 beyma 8MI100 8" mid . http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php
Has anyone have a back round with this driver ?
I guess Ill play with it and see how the improvements are.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I doubt if anyone has experience here with that driver..its is a JBL forum after all. Aside from that the response looks smooth but how it will voice is something only time will tell.

I just wonder why you chose that driver and not a JBL 2118 or search for a 2202 or E110 cores and recone to 2122 spec?

[kartsmart]

Why I choose the driver brand ? Because I can have one here too try in just a few days, nothing taken from JBL, were going on ebay paying more than I should and time for reconing/and might very well do that before its done.
right know I'm just playing and gathering info. :bouncy:

[kartsmart]

Just started listen to the new 8" mids, wow what a improvement.
Before adding a mid I was so disipointed with the system that at the time I thought it would never sound good. :banghead:
Now Im sure Im on the right track now. With the new mid. it just brought the good qualitys out in the other drivers. the tight bass of the tad's, and never realized the how good the 2420 driver sounds(even with a not so good sounding horn 2345).:applaud: Im learning what always been said here.
And most of all I would like to thank all of the members here on this great forum for all of the good advice and help. :D
I think I need to try a few horns and see what I like , any advice ? I don't like harsh sounding on the upper range.Maybe something that would sound open , clear , well defined. And again thank to you all.:bouncy:

[kartsmart]

:(

[speakerdave]

Hi Kartsmart,

We need clarification of your current kit. I think it is 2420 with 2345, generic 8" bass/mid, and TAD 1602 woofers. And your crossover? Are you using frequency compensation with that horn? You should be, I believe. What are your crossover frequencies now?

David

Edit: I'm not familiar with the dbx driverack. Does that allow you to dial in EQ by telling it what components you are using? Or the type of horn, etc?

[kartsmart]

I'm ready to try the 2123 midbass driver and I need to know 4 things before I start.
1 what would be a good starting point on the size of sealed box VB.
2 what size is the cut out for ft mount 9" ?
3 is there a shape of a box that works best ? :blink:
4 how much stuffing ? to start with.

[4313B]

0.5 cu ft
9"
1.25 : 1.0 :0.8
full

[kartsmart]

Got it , thanks :applaud:

[kartsmart]

Giskard would that be .5 cu ft with or with out driver displacement.

[4313B]

0.5 cu ft gross.

11-7/8" x 9-1/2" x 7-5/8" internal dimensions.

[kartsmart]

Once again thanks, Its time to get to work.

[kartsmart]

How would one tell if the magnets are getting weak on a 2420 driver ?:blink:

[Charlie4350]

How would one tell if the magnets are getting weak on a 2420 driver ?:blink:

Put a flat blade screwdriver in the throat (hold on to that sucker, to get used to the "feel"). Good charge will pull hard. This was told to me by wonderful woman at JBL years ago. It's not a measurement, by any means, but you'll quickly learn the difference between a strong and weak magnet.

[spkrman57]

Reduced output for same input signal, loss of upper HF response.:(

I have a pair of 2426J's if you want to borrow them until you see which direction you are going.;)

After March I should be making some trips to Cleveland and other northern cities and might be able to stop by.:D

Ron






How would one tell if the magnets are getting weak on a 2420 driver ?:blink:

[kartsmart]

what Capacitor (http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/redir?src=dmn&requestId=9396c49567135a8c&clickedItemRank=1&userQuery=capacitor&clickedItemURN=http%3A%2F%2Fswitcher.dmn.aol.com%2 Fsw%2Fr%3Fri%3D681OSOtU7qRoK819iFC8ChxA%26ai%3D0%2 6dt%3D1143980471890%26u%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.g oogle.com%252Furl%253Fsa%253Dl%2526ai%253DBwnPDt8E vRLnDN4_kqAKq8vj2C83r1RPdgsnmAY6J9AWQmjsQARgBIJpOK AdInzlQpfuNugWYAcaOBsgBAZUCJUVLCg%2526num%253D1%25 26q%253Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.newark.com%252FNewa rkWebCommerce%252Fnewark%252Fen_US%252FendecaSearc h%252FsearchPage2.jsp%25253FN%25253D1000126%25252B 4%252526%25253DPassives%252526No%25253D0%252526N%2 5253D0%252526comSearch%25253Dtrue%252526CMP%25253D KNC-7304YJ104010%26cs%3DiMqc%252BQC1Ct1Z8w2R45lDCJXz9% 252Fc%253D&title=%3Cb%3ECapacitor%3C%2Fb%3E) should be used for protection on a LE85 crossed over at 1200hz.
Also should the 2123 be protected also. if so what should be used? crossover 300hz.
Ron I have been too busy to get back to ya, but will soon OK
thankx

[Zilch]

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Vintage%20JBL-UREI%20Electronics/JBL-5235%20manual.pdf

3-2

[kartsmart]

What would be a good hf tweeter for the 2420 with a Edgarhorn 650Hz round tractrix horn, using the 2123 for mid bass. thanks :blink:

[spkrman57]

I am traveling to NC Thursday and will return middle of next week.

I have a assortment of compression drivers/horns/tweeter horns.

I also have some ideas you can try out.

My current system hooked up(I change this at least monthly):

500hz Edgarhorn/Great Plains 1.4" driver(similiar to Altec 288-8K)

2225 recone in E-130 basket in JBL 3677 cabinet(removed foam from ports)

800hz crossover(PE 2nd order low-3rd order high and HF comp ala "Pi speaker crossover)

2242 sub with PE 250w plate amp

Different amps I swap out:

Yamamoto 45 SET (2 wpc)
DRD300B (7 wpc)
Cayin EL34 PP (30 wpc)
Almorro EL84 (5 wpc)
MC-240 6L6 (40 wpc)
ARC SS class "A" (60 wpc)


Each of these amps are driven by Blue Circle preamp(tubed) and each has its own sonic signatures (characteristics).

I just put this together yesterday and currently running the Cayin EL34 PP for louder output. The Yamamoto 45 SET is okay for lower listening levels and has the best overal sound quality.

Ron





What would be a good hf tweeter for the 2420 with a Edgarhorn 650Hz round tractrix horn, using the 2123 for mid bass. thanks :blink:

[kartsmart]

Had my first chance at listening to the new speaker arrangement I have had put together. It consest of 2 Tad 1602's , one down fire and the other front fire. Then the 2123 10" midbass sounds great, I mean the vocals seem so uncolored ,natural just so clean and blends well with the edgar 650hz salaid bowl horns. the edgar horns tend to bring much more highs out of the LE85 than the 2345 horn did. plus a very smooth pleasing responce.
For right now I dont have no EQ or correction just a 4 way active crossover 12db down fire set at 20- 80hz front fire set 20-250hz -2123 250-1200hz- LE85 1200hz up . and I think it sound pretty good as it sets.
next I need too get the DBX up and running and run a RTA. thanks every one for the help on getting there.:bouncy:

[kartsmart]

Working on setting up the DBX studio rack, In the crossover section I can use the butterworth 6,12,18,24 db or the linkwitz-riley also 6,12,18,24 db.
I,m not sure what is the difference is between the 2 types of x-overs or what the efects would be between them. Could someone give me the insite on this, and maybe witch arangement I should try first ? :blink:

[4313B]

Sorry to hijack your thread but I couldn't resist.

Who can post a schematic of a 6dB/octave, aka 1st order, aka single pole, Butterworth filter and a schematic of a 6dB/octave, aka 1st order, aka single pole, L-R filter?

[Earl K]

Who can post a schematic of a 6dB/octave, aka 1st order, aka single pole, Butterworth filter and a schematic of a 6dB/octave, aka 1st order, aka single pole, L-R filter?

- You know this of course but;

- No one can post those schematics, since those filter transforms ( Butterworth &/or L-R ) don't exist in the single pole topology . :)

- The existence of such nonsense, does seem to occur in DBXs' retail world ( as well as other manufacturers ).

;)

[Earl K]

Working on setting up the DBX studio rack, In the crossover section I can use the butterworth 6,12,18,24 db or the linkwitz-riley also 6,12,18,24 db.
I,m not sure what is the difference is between the 2 types of x-overs or what the efects would be between them. Could someone give me the insite on this, and maybe witch arangement I should try first ?

- The one that works best will be measurable as giving the best signal summation at your crossover point.

- I'd suggest you try out both the L-R & Butterworth , 24 db /octave slopes . Going with the 24 db per octave slope will allow you to maintain positive polarities for all your drivers ( which I prefer ) / as well as / providing a measure of extra protection to your drivers.

[4313B]

- No one can post those schematics, since those filter transforms ( Butterworth &/or L-R ) don't exist in the single pole topology . :)Nice! :)

I guess I forgot that you woke up before those West Coasters. I was hoping for a few amusing responses before the correct answer appeared. :rotfl:Ah well, maybe next time. :p

[Zilch]

High pass or low pass? :D