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boputnam
01-24-2006, 10:00 PM
:blink:

Spent the last 6-hrs in a wonderfully configured, and suitably designed audiophile studio. The gear was far beyond my budget, and all top-notch. Krell feeding ProAc Resonse D80.

:barf:

I don't get it. Wifey here with me. We don't get it. Setting was nearly perfect. But there was no depth of soundstage. Virtually no imaging. Sure, the "sound" was honest and good, but it was not engrossing. It was so far from the "presentation" of the 4345's, I couldn't imagine anything more different. The instruments and vocals don't sound like they are right there, in the room. ??

Admittedly, this audophile refuses to acknowledge the merits of an EQ (there was none). And that raises another question: If audiophiles really "get it", why do they not understand the need to marry their cabinets to room acoustics. Again, I say... :blink:

OK, enough from me. I'm confused, but ever more committed to the 4345's, their great dispersion and imaging (GOOD HORNS DO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!) and wonderful soundstage.

jblfreeek
01-25-2006, 01:10 AM
Maybe problem is the Krell's not Proacs. :dont-know

I've heard about this in many places about Krell not performing well enough. (compared with others in same league like Mark Levinson etc)

4313B
01-25-2006, 01:15 AM
Admittedly, this audophile refuses to acknowledge the merits of an EQ (there was none). And that raises another question: If audiophiles really "get it", why do they not understand the need to marry their cabinets to room acoustics.Back when I actually cared about such things and was the only JBL owner in a crowd of snobby audiophiles the rule was if your system needed EQ it sucked. From my personal experience audiophiles never did "get it" and I eventually lost interest in their endeavors.

Get It All - JBL

Titanium Dome
01-25-2006, 03:23 AM
A couple of decades ago, I went into a high end shop in MI looking for an EQ. The snooty salesman was busy duping a Yuppie couple with his line of BS, and I was basically given the bum's rush: "We only have one equalizer, but it's a cheap model that we sell to people whose systems aren't good enough to not need one. You'd be better off getting a system that didn't require unnecessary help."

Then he turned his back on me and continued with his victims.

Well, the damn EQ was over $400, and I'd seen the same model over at Highland Appliance for $199. I was a little pissed so my thought was Okay, MF, I'll take my business elsewhere."

As I was leaving, I heard the jerk leading the Yuppies in a chorus of elitist laughter about my plebian tastes. "I don't know why those kind of people even come in here. He's probably got a cheap receiver with a bunch of dancing lights and he wants more lights to impress his friends when they come over to..." and he made the "toking" motion with his lips and fingers. BTW I had hair then, very long hair.

While they laughed, I fumed. :flamed:

Finally fed up, I couldn't let it go, and went to confront him.

Excuse me.

Yes?

Have you been to my house?

Uh, no.

Do you know the size of my listening room?

No.

Do you know what's on my floors? On my walls? What kind of furniture I have?

Of course not, but why...

Do you know what speakers I have, or what amp?

No, but I don't see...

Are you telling me that without knowing any of that information you can proclaim that a) my system is inferior, b) there's no possible reason for me to need equalization, and c) that any sytem I bought from you and put in my house would be perfectly flat from the moment of install?

Well, it's been demonstrated in all the high end journals...

Journals? Journal is just another word for magazine, and magazine's just another word for rag. Give me a break. You believe it because some hack in a magazine told you it was so? Do you ever think for yourself? Do you ever actually verify any of this BS?

I turned to the couple.

If I were you, I'd run, not walk, out of this store and away from this moron. I'm going down to Highland where I know going in that the sales guy doesn't know anything, but at least I can get a great price.

As you can tell, this caused me severe emotional trauma, and I've relived it many times over the years. This is how I remember it now. ;)

I noticed with glee a year later that this place was out of business. :applaud:

Robh3606
01-25-2006, 04:29 AM
Hey Bo

Amazing isn't it. Went into a Magnolia to listen to some panel speakers that were playing. Had something like a 30K system going in surround which they happened to have Hell Freezes Over playing. It was bland for lack of a better word. No real focus, imaging was diffuse and it had no real bite. The bass was mushy had no pitch. Well people were loving it. "Doesn't this sound great!" I was like yeah ok. I didn't know what to say cause the guy really liked it. It seems there is no telling what someones system will sound like until you have a listen. There is so much variation in what passes as good sound you really have to go your own way. Maybe this guy thought it was the best he had ever heard??? I don't get the whole snob appeal aspect or the head in the sand about EQ either. Seems many get lost on the tweek side and either don't get or understand the basics or get so wrapped up in the equipment they just miss the boat.

Rob:)

norealtalent
01-25-2006, 05:06 AM
Damnit! :bash: I HATE you guys when you're right!!! I DON"T WANT AN EQ!!! What good is an EQ without an RTA? :banghead: ( I know, I know, I'm working on it. There's only 86400 seconds in a day!):blink:

kingjames
01-25-2006, 05:22 AM
In the 70's equalizers were used by quite a few people including myself. Man did they look good with all those switches and lights. Hell,most people even had them in their cars as well. I never really liked to use one because it was a pain to adjust them to the right sound,and then when I just got it right my kids would come and move all the switches.Equalizers were also a status symbol,it was just another pretty piece to add to your system.There was a time when I had no JBL'S(couldn't afford them) so I was subjected to Radio Shack's Realistic's. They sounded good and the equalizer made them sound better.I think this was the norm in my area especially with the people that I hung out with.Later,when I was able to own some JBL'S I found out that I really didn't need an equalizer.When I was young it never dawned on me that I was using a EQ to (help) out my receiver and speakers. I thought it was necessary because without it my system sounded terrible.Giskard is right,if your system needs an eq then your system sucks. I haven't used one for over 20 years now and that's because I have the right equipment now.A good Receiver or some good separates and some JBl'S and you will never have a need for an EQ.

norealtalent
01-25-2006, 05:33 AM
I used to think if your system needs EQ then you need a new system. I still think that in many ways. Of course all you vintage reciever lovers will have to give up your bass, treble and loudness switches. Afterall, they're just simplistic eq's themselves. What I think an EQ would be nice for is those unpleasant room anomollies that I have. My livingroom is slightly L shaped, with the 2 speakers placed at the corners of the bottom of the L. The small portion of wall at the L reflects the sound no matter what I do to it. I'd like to try a nice RTA/EQ just to see what structural differences I can compensate for. I'm gonna get one, just need a few more seconds in a day. Maybe if I stayed off this damn computer for a week I could get something done...naaah :bouncy:

4313B
01-25-2006, 05:43 AM
I suspect I was too vague once again. Oh well. :dont-know

norealtalent
01-25-2006, 06:08 AM
I suspect I was too vague once again. Oh well. :dont-know

Latest in audiophile terminology; The Giskard Anomolly, named in honor of it's founding father.:)

boputnam
01-25-2006, 06:10 AM
Er, no. You were quite clear.

hapy._.face
01-25-2006, 06:28 AM
:blink:

Spent the last 6-hrs in a wonderfully configured, and suitably designed audiophile studio.

Hi all-

OK- this may make me sound a little ignorant (too late, I know)- but isn't a studio environment supposed to be ruler flat? You don't want excessive imaging and or depth of stage- isn't that the whole concept behind near field monitors?? You have to practically sit in front of them (near) to get any imaging at all. Right?? Monitors monitor. You're checking sound in a studio- not indulging (per se).

And as far as audiophiles 'not getting it' I agree- most don't. However, that's a sweeping statement- kinda like 'guys that listen to JBL's are tone deaf'. We all know how far from the truth that is, don't we?? ;)

I consider myself an audiophile and I do get it. I have heard systems that are so detailed- yet are not engaging at ALL. You almost have to concentrate to understand why the gear is so celebrated. Like Totem brand speakers. At first listen- they sound boring. YET- they offer amazing detail that my JBL's cannot offer. BUT- I like the JBL's BETTER. Confusing, I know. I dont want to concentrate to enjoy my system- but I don't want it to hit me over the head with excessive responses either. I like a balance. I guess it all comes down to personal pref.

In the end- I don't understand how the industry has become so divided into 2 camps- The assholes- and the asshole haters. The way a regular guy gets treated in a high end shop makes me wonder how ANY of them can remain in business. What are people buying in there? Gear or prestige tokens?? It's all about the music!!

JonathanKeehn
01-25-2006, 06:42 AM
One reason to use a 31-band equalizer is correct deficiencies in one's hearing. Most people think nothing at all about wearing glasses or contacts to correct vision problems - so why not use an equalizer to correct hearing limitations caused by hearing loss? As one who has lost some of his natural hearing ability due to playing the drums as a teenager and then logging too many high-SPL JBL hours over the last several decades, I've often thought about inserting a high-quality equalizer into my system. The attached hearing test graph from 6 years ago will illustrate this. How many audiophiles have actually had their hearing tested recently to see how "flat" they are? I think I paid $ 63.00 for this audiogram.

speakerdave
01-25-2006, 06:50 AM
"What do Audiophiles really hear...?"

Mostly it's the designer label, possibly. And then they may be focused on one or two things that are good, like the midrange, which I happen to like myself.

Psychoacoustics can be tricky. The speakers you build can be completely without fault, and so can the equipment you pay too much for.

Since I was in sales once, I've never really been able to talk to an audio sales person.

Lucky me.

David

Rolf
01-25-2006, 07:41 AM
What do Audiophiles really hear...?

As I am sure many others here, I have personal experience with this. Not all so called Audiophiles are the same. I consider myself one. I have used a lot of money on things some of you here on the forum is making fun of, including expencive cables of all sorts, filters on the power supply to the electronics etc. With this in mind you are also making fun of me, and is this any better than the example in the first post by boputnam? I tell you this: I have never bought any product unless I could hear something to the better! I could also make fun of some ideas and opinions I read about on this forum, but why should I? It has always been my philosophy that: "if you are pleased with your system, it is right for you".

My brother is another Audiophile. We agree with amps, CD players and other electronics, but we use compleatly differnt speakers. At the moment he uses, I think they are called "Swan", and American brand. I use as you know the 4343B.

I think his system sounds very good, but I prefer the 4343's. My brother think my system sounds old fashon, and do not have the details he hears on his own system. When I listen to both our systems I hear differences. Both sounds good, but I prefer mine because of the sound of the speakers. The elecronics is good on both systems, and you can't hear much differenses changing components.

Then there is other people who buy the most expensive components the can afford (and even more), and believe they have the ultimate. Those people will not even speak to me if they know what kind of speakers I use. That is ok for me, I let them live in their world.

As I am not a neutral "allmighty hi-fi guru" I can't tell you who is right. I believe we all am right to our own meaning, and use the equipment we like.

Rolf

johnaec
01-25-2006, 07:42 AM
A good Receiver or some good separates and some JBl'S and you will never have a need for an EQ.So how do you compensate for a horrible 60hz peak, or 400hz room resonances? I'm sorry, but sometimes an equalizer is just plain necessary. BTW - you may want to read Giskard's post again - I think you're actually disagreeing with him...

John

Valentin
01-25-2006, 08:16 AM
Eq can be powerfull tools and as such they can help or distroy if use not properly

kingjames
01-25-2006, 08:19 AM
you are right Johnaec,it was a long night and I did misread Giskard. Sorry Giskard! However me being one of the few who doesn't even know what a 60hz peak or a 400hz peak means,I must admit that I'm out of my league here.I try to let my ears tell me what sounds good.With my Pionner and my JBL's I don't need to be concerned with peaks and such. I don't say that with sarcasim,I just really enjoy my music the way it sounds.My friends enjoy my system as well and some of the kids of my friends can't believe how it sounds and when I tell them that everything they see here is from the 60's and 70's they are in total shock.I don't have the knowledge of most people on this forum so peaks and such is not really a concern with me, I like to put in a cd and just listen to the music.I think if I had the knowlege of most of you I probally would find fault with my setup.But then what fun would that be? I enjoy my setup too much to be concerned with with all those peaks.I like to keep things simple, I have found that when I use JBl's I really don't have to use my bass knob or trebel knob on my receiver.I think this is why I like JBL's because the sound is always good no matter where your control's are.In my opinion!

hapy._.face
01-25-2006, 08:20 AM
So how do you compensate for a horrible 60hz peak, or 400hz room resonances? I'm sorry, but sometimes an equalizer is just plain necessary. BTW - you may want to read Giskard's post again - I think you're actually disagreeing with him...

John

I have to side with EQ's here. But it's the same thing all over again- if you don't have the ears to notice the faults in room acoustics- you don't need an EQ. Agreed? If you don't hear any noticeable quality between component "A" and component "B"- then opt for the cheaper one. If you are completely satisfied with your system the way it is (I think few are) then I envy you. Even it uses (what I perceive to be) lesser quality components- it's YOUR system and it only needs to make YOU happy.:) Who cares what anyone else thinks?

But a word on overpriced equipment: Not everyone is after the best sounding gear. There are a few people that couldn't care less about the way it plays music. They seek statis, acceptance (from others in thier group), and aethestics. Make no mistake- these people are not audiophiles- they are blinded consumers. I don't wish to be catagorized as such.

Ian Mackenzie
01-25-2006, 08:30 AM
Bo,

The 4345's shit over most most speakers and just about all so called HiFi speakers..period.

You have a relatively large and somewhat live room at home. I would agree that some careful Eq would help your situation and I recall we did and A/ B with and without Eq.

My room is smaller and I find I get what you have described but only when the LPads are very carefully calibrated so the system is Flat at near field location and the enclosures are carefully located with absolute symmetry.

For example tonight I was playing a recent live acoustic recording of James Reyne (a Cold Chisel tune) done at the Forum Theatre. I thought it sounded odd and I later realised I had left a test jig on one of the horn filters. When this was corrected everything fell into place and the candle wax just flowed.

My point is the closer you get to reality, the more important and audible certain kinds errors or aberations become.

By the same token the human ear and mind is relatively tolerant of other less objectional errors and distortions.

HiFi buffs grow tolerant of certain sounds and presentations after a while and the mind fills in the gaps particularly when there is no reference for comparison.

Incidentally, I don't use an Eq but I sure would like to try one with a skilled pair of ears and an RTA to help out.

Happy listening.

Ian

JuniorJBL
01-25-2006, 08:41 AM
EQ's have a place anywhere. also people do not seem to think about the filters in alot of speakers already. I would say no matter what equipment you have, if you put an RTA on your system you will find some areas that need HELP.

edgewound
01-25-2006, 09:03 AM
It's all a matter of taste, budget, and how much gear you want to have. Every side of the argument has some snobbery going on, so hang out with your own clique and make fun of the other guys....just like junior high school. I've heard, built and set up systems that benefitted from EQ....usually live sound rigs. I prefer to have an accurate as possible speaker system and minimalist electronics to see how well the recording is produced. With enough EQ you can almost make any recording sound decent. On the other hand, most EQ's in the home system are "smiling" at you while a perfectly good recording is screwed.


And that's my opinion.:)

Rolf
01-25-2006, 09:27 AM
The 4345's shit over most most speakers and just about all so called HiFi speakers..period.
Ian

Well Ian, are you the person I refered to in my post abowe?:D

Rolf

Ken Pachkowsky
01-25-2006, 09:34 AM
Good thread Bo, with some great replies.

TI Domes story is similar to experinces I have had that I won't go into.

It's pretty hard to make a living room or den acoustically perfect and have it still look like a regular room. The listening room we were in last week (Westlake) looked like *&^% but was NOT completely dead like an Anechoic Chamber. Glenn prefers a room with a bit of life to it. Speaking of Anechoic Chambers, if you have never been in one they are very uncomfortable to sit in. Steve Schell mentioned it the other day "it's almost eerie feeling" and I agreed with him " I felt claustraphobic in one a number of years ago". If I were a single man, I would definitely hang baffles from the ceiling and build bass traps in the corners. Unfortunately, unless you have extremely deep pockets to purchase existing solutions or can afford to hire an engineer to design and then build your listening environment, you are almost sure to need some EQ.

I also felt several members hit the nail on the head when stating that personal taste is a major factor as well.

Anyway, its a great read.

Ken

Alex Lancaster
01-25-2006, 09:54 AM
:) I guess the EQīs black legend goes back 20-30 years ago, when We adjusted the sliders to look like the Golden Gate bridge, to get that horrible "disco" sound, my room and ears are not even close to "perfect", and everybody over 50 (me), will get an unpleasant surprise if they check their hearing, specially in HF.

Mr. Widget
01-25-2006, 10:00 AM
If you are reading this, you are an audiophile.


Widget

JuniorJBL
01-25-2006, 10:02 AM
If you are reading this, you are an audiophile.


Widget

:no: :yes: :rotfl:

louped garouv
01-25-2006, 10:14 AM
I think the white EQs really woke up my A7s.... a real change for the better with them in-line...

even if they are set flat.... :blink:

with them out of the signal path, the big boxes seem dull and muffled....

and some subs and 075s and we be in bidness....

briang
01-25-2006, 10:17 AM
I suspect I was too vague once again. Oh well. :dont-know

You were clear, but sometimes others fail to comprehend what they read.:)

hapy._.face
01-25-2006, 10:22 AM
On the other hand, most EQ's in the home system are "smiling" at you while a perfectly good recording is screwed. And that's my opinion.:)


We adjusted the sliders to look like the Golden Gate bridge...



http://www.animationlibrary.com/Animation11/Creatures_and_Cartoons/Smiles/smiley_line_2.gif

Ken Pachkowsky
01-25-2006, 10:27 AM
I think the white EQs really woke up my A7s.

Yes, the Whites do have a magic to them that I have found hard to beat and believe me I have tried. Bo has the new KT 700 series (I think) that is supposed to be great but at over 2000 grand it's out of my league. I have to wait and try to steal one on EPray sometime down the road.

I bought a BSS 960 and its ok, but to be honest I preffered the 4400's I sold to Scott.

I did pick up a great pair this week and will give them an audition to see if my head is up my a$$. I have been known to stick it there at times.

Ken

Zilch
01-25-2006, 10:34 AM
I find it interesting that audiograms stop at 8 kHz.

Play the EQ/RTA game with Behringer DEQ2496, under $300. WAY fun, and enlightening.... :thmbsup:

Akira
01-27-2006, 12:41 PM
I just bought a true "audiophile" system, which I will post pics and test results later. (JBL vs Castle Winchester)

WELL...I STILL DON'T GET IT.

This system cost $8K plus tax (speakers $3,500.) in 1991. I paid $1000. in absolute mint conditon. While the system does have some nice qualities and is really nice to own as a classy addition to my house.........I'm glad I didn't pay no $$$$$$$.

WHAT IS IT THAT AUDIOPHILES HEAR?

I think hearing is like an aquired taste in food. You get to recognize and seek out certain traits that you have ingrained into your memory. Once there, pride blinds you to other possibilities. I suppose that's why no one will eat my pizza covered in anchioves; they tell their taste buds to reject the notion that something maybe good.
It has occured to me that having been abducted into studio monitor sound at the age of 19, I have trained my brain to seek out ever more perfection in the same style of speaker....NO WONDER AUDIOPHILES THINK WE DON'T GET IT!

In the end consider this. An audiophile spends just as much time, money and research pursuing his endevour as we do ours; he also thinks we are as misguided in our belief system as we think he is f........ in the head.

So in polite conclusion just let me say....they're idiots!*%#$*!!:screwy:

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 01:06 PM
QUOTE=Akira]...I think hearing is like an acquired taste in food. You get to recognize and seek out certain traits that you have ingrained into your memory. Once there, pride blinds you to other possibilities. [/QUOTE]



I'd like to comment on that statement. While I agree- I'd like to add to it. So often we forget why we go to such great lengths in this hobby: music (or HT)!! It all comes down to indulgences and how much a certain component and/or set up can draw us into the experience. If it's music you love- then the whole goal should be to get the system that makes that music sound as real and/or live as possible. That's just my take...



A visit with a new friend yielded something in our conversation that is SO TRUE- I have to share it with you: '..this industry (music recording/performance) doesn't rely so much on musicians and musicianship these days. As a result- fewer and fewer people growing up in the past generation or so don't even know what a real drum kit (for example) sounds like!!!' How can these people (now viable consumers in the market) be expected to appreciate the critical nature of a quality loudspeaker- any other component?? It's not their fault... The market is a reflection of its consumers and today's market is catering to whole new breed of buyers whose musical experiences are sorely limited. As such they (manufacturers) can sell pure image, hype, and maybe even buy themselves a good review or two in Stereophile. Sad...



Today's audiophile is not yesterday's.



And a word on the 'music is like an acquired taste' comment: Sometimes BBQ ribs are just plain good (much to the snobberies of food critics...)!!

Mr. Widget
01-27-2006, 01:39 PM
WHAT IS IT THAT AUDIOPHILES HEAR?I don't get the question... we all hear differently and appreciate music and film sound tracks differently.

Some people think that ALtec A-7s are it, some people like Lowthers, some like 70's era JBLs, some like Klipsch, and others like the sound of Sonus Faber or whatever "audiophile" brand you choose.

Sure there is hype in the market place... take a look in a 70's Stereo Review mag... the ads were as full of hype then as Stereophile is today. That doesn't mean that the JBL L300 wasn't a good speaker then or a B+W 800D isn't a good speaker today.

The other day an "audiophile" friend came by and listened to the system I've been working on for the last year. (I quite like it.) He said "wow, the detail is amazing... I can hear so far into the music... the sound stage is huge..." Later he said he preferred the smaller more intimate sound stage of his "audiophile" speakers that he has at home.

Our enjoyment of this stuff, is personal and individual.

Widget

Ken Pachkowsky
01-27-2006, 01:46 PM
Our enjoyment of this stuff, is personal and individual.

Widget

So, So true.

Although the fact we all have JBL's does puts us in that "Punchy West Coast Sound" category of audio buffs, a term I am more comfortable with than Audiophile.

Ken

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 02:04 PM
I don't get the question... we all hear differently and appreciate music and film sound tracks differently.

Some people think that ALtec A-7s are it, some people like Lowthers, some like 70's era JBLs, some like Klipsch, and others like the sound of Sonus Faber or whatever "audiophile" brand you choose.
Sure there is hype in the market place... take a look in a 70's Stereo Review mag... the ads were as full of hype then as Stereophile is today. That doesn't mean that the JBL L300 wasn't a good speaker then or a B+W 800D isn't a good speaker today.
The other day an "audiophile" friend came by and listened to the system I've been working on for the last year. (I quite like it.) He said "wow, the detail is amazing... I can hear so far into the music... the sound stage is huge..." Later he said he preferred the smaller more intimate sound stage of his "audiophile" speakers that he has at home.
Our enjoyment of this stuff, is personal and individual.
Widget

Yep. I guess that about sums it up! I pretty much agree with everything you say on this forum. Although I disagree with you on the part about there being no difference today as there was in the 70's. IMHO, the whole world has changed the way it does business and advertising is far more aggressive and effective than it was back then. Think about it- would the Bose wave radio be as successful then as it is today? I think not. Reason: Advertising is better today.



However, I think your "taste is subjective" approach (to put a lid on this thread) is dead on!! I don't think that lends any reason for us to classify ourselves into so many categories and subcategories. Hopefully, we all love music.

edgewound
01-27-2006, 02:09 PM
However, I think your "taste is subjective" approach (to put a lid on this thread) is dead on!! I don't think that lends any reason for us to classify ourselves into so many categories and subcategories. Hopefully, we all love music.



Amen to that...

One major thing I've noticed in the "audiosnobs" is the total lack of respect for all things JBL, and sheer nastiness of their attitude towards it. A most intolerent crowd, indeed. I think they have more fun looking at their stuff than listening to it..."hey....look at this new cable I spent 15 grand on"...yeah, great.:blink:

Ian Mackenzie
01-27-2006, 02:42 PM
Actually the original audiophile vanished along with vinyl.

I mean hello, how many of you play vinyl?

No CD player on the face of the earth can hold a candle to a fine vinyl replay setup. That is an undisputed fact.

There is so much more information in those grooves that I fail to see how someone can use CD as a yardstick to draw any conclusions about anything.

JuniorJBL
01-27-2006, 02:46 PM
Actually the original audiophile vanished along with vinyl.

I mean hello, how many of you play vinyl?

No CD player on the face of the earth can hold a candle to a fine vinyl replay setup. That is an undisputed fact.

There is so much more information in those grooves that I fail to see how someone can use CD as a yardstick to draw any conclusions about anything.

Uh... Yes sir you are correct:applaud:

Ahhh... Vinyl;)

edgewound
01-27-2006, 03:34 PM
Actually the original audiophile vanished along with vinyl.

I mean hello, how many of you play vinyl?

No CD player on the face of the earth can hold a candle to a fine vinyl replay setup. That is an undisputed fact.

There is so much more information in those grooves that I fail to see how someone can use CD as a yardstick to draw any conclusions about anything.

Well...yeah...alot more information in the groove....it's called dirt....and dust and distortion. Nuthin' like a needle dragging to clean out that groove.The analog warmth is also known as distortion. 96k and above recordings put vinyl in the stone-age....uh oh....here comes the barrage....
:die: :scold: :argue: :screwy: :duel: :flamer: :nanana: :rockon2: :slink: :thnkfast:

4313B
01-27-2006, 03:46 PM
Now we are finding out that CD's aren't all that either. What did they say the other day? Burned CD's have a shelf life of a few years, five at most? Hell, I've already had to hit up several companies for replacement CD media because the media fails. It was proposed that DAT was really the only viable long term storage solution despite it's limitations.

I distinctly remember when CD's first came out. They definitely sucked compared to the same cuts on vinyl. It was all there right in front of our ears and we were stunned that this was the future. But who could beat the convenience of the CD? Vinyl demanded exceptional care. Convenience drives our world.

Regardless of the money spent on home hi-fi, it can't touch the local symphony. It can't. That's exciting. :)

scott fitlin
01-27-2006, 04:04 PM
Well...yeah...alot more information in the groove....it's called dirt....and dust and distortion. Nuthin' like a needle dragging to clean out that groove.The analog warmth is also known as distortion. 96k and above recordings put vinyl in the stone-age....uh oh....here comes the barrage....
:die: :scold: :argue: :screwy: :duel: :flamer: :nanana: :rockon2: :slink: :thnkfast:Well, 96K is good! I am using a BSS 366T in my system, which samples and converts at 94K/24bit, and its super clean, and MUCH better than digi processors of a few years back!

But vinyl sounds wayyyy better even through this thing than CD,s do!

There is still something to analog audio and vinyl! Hopefully, digital will close the gap in the very near future, and we wont miss vinyl and analog any more!

But, for right now, analog audio and its artifacts still edge out digital a bit.

Ken Pachkowsky
01-27-2006, 04:09 PM
The Claremont police department is looking for assistance in the murder of Colton resident Ken Haerr (aka Edgewound). He was found bludgeoned and bloody behind Denonís Used CD Outlet in Venice, Ca.

Sergeant JA Michell stated "We suspect foul play, but can't prove anything due to a fouled, filthy crime scene causing a distorted view of what occurred. He did state however ďa tall handsome fellow wearing a rather worn out "but attractive" t-shirt was seen leaving the scene carrying what could only be described as a large Didgeridoo type object. Police suspect this could be the murder weapon!

Anyone providing information leading to the arrest of the above suspect will receive a Koetzu Phono cartridge.

All tips will remain confidential.

kingjames
01-27-2006, 04:11 PM
Now we are finding out that CD's aren't all that either. What did they say the other day? Burned CD's have a shelf life of a few years, five at most? Hell, I've already had to hit up several companies for replacement CD media because the media fails. It was proposed that DAT was really the only viable long term storage solution despite it's limitations.

I distinctly remember when CD's first came out. They definitely sucked compared to the same cuts on vinyl. It was all there right in front of our ears and we were stunned that this was the future. But who could beat the convenience of the CD? Vinyl demanded exceptional care. Convenience drives our world.

Regardless of the money spent on home hi-fi, it can't touch the local symphony. It can't. That's exciting. :)

Take A Look At This THread

http://computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/storage/story/0,10801,107607,00.html

I love the crystal clear sound of a cd and a cd also needs to be handled properly. I have cd's over 5 years old that play just as good as they did when I burnt them.As a rule though I only use Verbatim media for my cd's and dvd's.I remember vinyl and I remember when I first saw a stereo Lp didn't know why it was 2.00 more than the regular lp's until I bought one and then realized that is was well worth it.The sound was unbelieveable compared to the older LP'S.I have about 60 reel to reel tapes all recorded from the 60's and 70's and though I can hear some scratch,crackle and pop they have maintained very well.There is some truth in tape!

edgewound
01-27-2006, 04:16 PM
No question about it....some CD's suck....so do some vinyl records. But the only thing I think is better about vinyl LP's is the artwork. DVD audio has a 50Khz upper bandwidth, the best analog 2" tape running at 30+ ips can get upto maybe 35-40KHz.


I knew this would draw lot's of comments:yes:

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 04:18 PM
Regardless of the money spent on home hi-fi, it can't touch the local symphony. It can't. That's exciting. :)

I really like that statement, Giskard. A lot...



That's what people need to remember in all of this- musical performances (and all of the anomalies associated with it) are the one and only sound benchmark we need to strive for. Personally, I think there is no way to actually achieve perfect playback no matter what technology comes of the trees. I shoot for a synergy between components; That sometimes elusive X factor- present when you get a system just right and you have the emotion conveyed, at least. If the hair on my arms stand up and I feel moved by the music- I'm happy with that. It still holds no candle to a live performance (something we all need more of). You are so right Giskard- 'that is exiting'!!



I love vinyl (btw)- may it live forever. Hell, even my sofa is vinyl.

boputnam
01-27-2006, 04:22 PM
....some CD's suck....Yea, but as Giskard notes, soon enough they won't just suck, they simply won't.

And, I agree on the dynamics of live orchestra. Almost impossible to record, and stunning from the right seat... :applaud:

edgewound
01-27-2006, 04:27 PM
The Colton police department is looking for assistance in the murder of Colton resident Ken Haerr (aka Edgewound). He was found bludgeoned and bloody behind Denonís Used CD Outlet in Venice, Ca.

Sergeant JA Michell stated "We suspect foul play, but can't prove anything due to a fouled, filthy crime scene causing a distorted view of what occurred. He did state however ďa tall handsome fellow wearing a rather worn out "but attractive" t-shirt was seen leaving the scene carrying what could only be described as a large Didgeridoo type object. Police suspect this could be the murder weapon!

Anyone providing information leading to the arrest of the above suspect will receive a Koetzu Phono cartridge.

All tips will remain confidential.

It's a good thing I don't live in Colton....and I'm armed with a boomerang, so back off!!

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 04:28 PM
[QUOTE=edgewound]Well...yeah...alot more information in the groove....it's called dirt....and dust and distortion. Nuthin' like a needle dragging to clean out that groove.The analog warmth is also known as distortion. 96k and above recordings put vinyl in the stone-age....uh oh....here comes the barrage....
[QUOTE]

LOL. I hear ya-
but who ever played a guitar that clean?? Seriously? If musicians were that preoccupied with how clean instruments sounded all the time- there would be no rock and roll, or any of the great things that sprouted from it. I say dirty is good!! :D

But- I think the point here was that a 'well set up vinyl' system rocks, and I agree 100%. Bad vinyl set ups are an awful experience- especially to the vinyl heads! There is nothing dirty about a well thought out and cared for vinyl playback rig. I wish all my music was on vinyl (in doubles:bouncy:!! ). I'd trade in all my cds for good records- in a heartbeat! Not because I'm nostalgic either- I feel it's a superior media. (for now)

jim3860
01-27-2006, 04:31 PM
Yea, but as Giskard notes, soon enough they won't just suck, they simply won't.

And, I agree on the dynamics of live orchestra. Almost impossible to record, and stunning from the right seat... :applaud: whats worse than cds? mp3 files. Kids love them,they can stick thousands of very bad sounding songs on something they can put into there shirt pocket. Its truly pitiful to think that in a few short generations. The audiophile may be someone with a better mp3 player:barf:

edgewound
01-27-2006, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE=edgewound]Well...yeah...alot more information in the groove....it's called dirt....and dust and distortion. Nuthin' like a needle dragging to clean out that groove.The analog warmth is also known as distortion. 96k and above recordings put vinyl in the stone-age....uh oh....here comes the barrage....
[QUOTE]

LOL. I hear ya-
but who ever played a guitar that clean?? Seriously? If musicians were that preoccupied with how clean the instruments sounded all the time- there would be no rock and roll, or any of the great things that sprouted from it. I say dirty is good!! :D

But- I think the point was that a 'well set up vinyl' system rocks, and I agree 100%. Bad vinyl set ups are an awful experience- especially to the vinyl heads! There is nothing dirty about a well thought out and cared for vinyl playback rig. I secretly wish all my music was on vinyl (in doubles:bouncy:!! ). I'd trade in all my cds for good records- in a heartbeat! Not because I'm nostalgic either- I feel it's a superior media. IMO.

Well, I play guitar....and regularly....but were talking about two different kinds of distortion. Purposely produced sound production versus the accuracy of RE-production.

Wow...ruffled some feathers, huh? Audiophiles....sheesh:blink:

kingjames
01-27-2006, 04:43 PM
the one cd that I remember being worst sounding then the LP was Jethro Tull(Aqualung). A classic song when played from the cd sounded like shit and, I think I remember there were parts missing on the cd. Ipod'err's beware when you drop your first unit.:barf:

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 04:49 PM
...were talking about two different kinds of distortion. Purposely produced sound production versus the accuracy of RE-production.


That's true.:) My point is: All this concern over distortion levels and I bet you can't even hear it when properly set up (in an A/B). That's not a jab- it's just the truth. One thing is for sure though- the well done vinyl set up will convey more than the cd will. Period. 3D extraction vs 2D. I wish you could hear how good my vinyl sounds and when I play the same recording on CD in direct comparison, you'd agree. My player is not anything special with regard to brand and quality. I'd say it's a fair component. However, I have 2 pretty good CD players and I still prefer the vinyl.

Ian Mackenzie
01-27-2006, 04:53 PM
No question about it....some CD's suck....so do some vinyl records. But the only thing I think is better about vinyl LP's is the artwork. DVD audio has a 50Khz upper bandwidth, the best analog 2" tape running at 30+ ips can get upto maybe 35-40KHz.


I knew this would draw lot's of comments:yes:



I was referring to CD (red book). DVd audio is another ball game.

jim3860
01-27-2006, 04:55 PM
Actually the original audiophile vanished along with vinyl.

I mean hello, how many of you play vinyl?

No CD player on the face of the earth can hold a candle to a fine vinyl replay setup. That is an undisputed fact.

There is so much more information in those grooves that I fail to see how someone can use CD as a yardstick to draw any conclusions about anything. This fellow seems to like vinyl.:applaud:

Rolf
01-27-2006, 04:57 PM
..."hey....look at this new cable I spent 15 grand on"...yeah, great.:blink:

Agree, BUT...a good cable, maybe 15 grand is a "little" high, might give more value than changing an amp.

Rolf

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 04:58 PM
This fellow seems to like vinyl.:applaud:

Damn! That HVAC vent is throwing off my entire WORLD!!!!! lol. (see pic above) I saw this on Audiogon, too. Pretty impressive, er um obsessive.:blink: :blink:

edgewound
01-27-2006, 05:03 PM
I was referring to CD (red book). DVd audio is another ball game.

Thank you. Ian...you understand what I'm saying....because you're not the typical audiophile and understand that the limitations of analog recording have been surpassed by the ever evolving and advancing of no-contact-surface distortion digital recording technology.

Nowhere did I say anything about MP3's or 16 bit...go back and read my comments fellas...I said 96Khz and above sampling rates which translates into 48Khz upperbandwidth which surpasses the very best analog...period.

I also said some CD's suck and so do some vinyl records...depends on who is at the controls and in the studio.

I'm done with this.

Ian Mackenzie
01-27-2006, 05:08 PM
Well...yeah...alot more information in the groove....it's called dirt....and dust and distortion. Nuthin' like a needle dragging to clean out that groove.The analog warmth is also known as distortion. 96k and above recordings put vinyl in the stone-age....uh oh....here comes the barrage....
:die: :scold: :argue: :screwy: :duel: :flamer: :nanana: :rockon2: :slink: :thnkfast:

As the late Kerry Packer would say.

"Son...your when I want your opinion I''ll &^%$#@% ask for it!"

Rolf
01-27-2006, 05:09 PM
Actually the original audiophile vanished along with vinyl.


Are you sure? Before this statement some said that the "real audiophile" vanished along with the introduction of stereo.

Some other people said that the change from tubes to transistors was the "kill".

What will be the next? From cd/dvd to ?? was what vanished the audiophile.

Really people, why does any new tecnology make some say this?

If you can't hear that the "pops", "klicks" is gone on a cd vs a vinyl record, something must be wrong with your ears.

I am not saying all CD's sound better, but a good recorded CD is far better than a vinyl recording.

Rolf

boputnam
01-27-2006, 05:13 PM
This fellow seems to like vinyl.:applaud:Yea, but he looks damned lonely in the solo pilot chair.

I never, ever wanna get that far-gone. :no: That is audiomasturbation. Egregious self-indulgence. Stupid (IMO...). Wires on mini-stanchions, fer crissake... :blink:

Audio is to share, to enjoy with and expose to others, particularly when we here learn how to configure and set-up a system that honours the source material. Our "chance of success" (a term from my industry...) is far higher than that of our neighbors...

jim3860
01-27-2006, 05:17 PM
Thank you. Ian...you understand what I'm saying....because you're not the typical audiophile and understand that the limitations of analog recording have been surpassed by the ever evolving and advancing of no-contact-surface distortion digital recording technology.

Nowhere did I say anything about MP3's or 16 bit...go back and read my comments fellas...I said 96Khz and above sampling rates which translates into 48Khz upperbandwidth which surpasses the very best analog...period.

I also said some CD's suck and so do some vinyl records...depends on who is at the controls and in the studio.

I'm done with this. I agree. the best albums ive ever heard were on DVD AUDIO and SACD. there might be vinyl setups that rival these formats. I have never had the pleasure of listening to them though, so i cant judge them. Without a doubt as i said in an earlier post, there is no cd - hdcd - xrcd -xrcd24- of the same album that will sound as good as a DVD AUDIO - SACD recording. period.:)

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 05:18 PM
If you can't hear that the "pops", "klicks" is gone on a cd vs a vinyl record, something must be wrong with your ears. I am not saying all CD's sound better, but a good recorded CD is far better than a vinyl recording.
Rolf

Man, you simply HAVE NOT heard a modern day record player. In fact I bet few on this forum have. Those that have know what I'm sayin here. Vinyl has been evolving NONSTOP. Unfortunately, many people stopped listening to them. Get to know what a nice, updated vinyl playback system sounds like and is capable of before you make such a sweeping statement. This is not a fight- I'm simply trying to get you into a good shop where you can hear first hand the difference vinyl has made in terms of quality and the ability to reproduce music with amazing emotion. You may change your mind....

Ian Mackenzie
01-27-2006, 05:19 PM
Rolf,

It depends.


We are not talking about DJ crap singles or 78's.

About 20 odd years ago Lin almost reinvented the audiophile vinyl world.

If you are talking about Direct to Disk or a nice 180 gram pressing playing throught a Sumiko Black Bird Moving Coil cartridge and an Aleph Pearl ..."I dont think so"

I while back I compared a direct disk with the exact same recording on CD. The CD version was totally crap. This is a direct comparison of what "the media can and cannot do".

I think the discussion starts and ends there.

Only those who have got the goods know!

Rolf
01-27-2006, 05:19 PM
I love the crystal clear sound of a cd and a cd also needs to be handled properly. I have cd's over 5 years old that play just as good as they did when I burnt them.

Me too love the crystal clear sound, but on my system a burnt cd will never play, as they sound bad. Don't tell me it's just about bits and bytes. That is wrong. The only time a burned cd will play at my system is if the original vinyl is impossible to get on a cd. ... ok, in the car to...as I do not wnat to use originals there. What is the point anyway using originals in a car?

Rolf
01-27-2006, 05:25 PM
This fellow seems to like vinyl.:applaud:

Yes, itis very good that somebody collect and take care of tne vinyl.

Rolf

jim3860
01-27-2006, 05:30 PM
Yea, but he looks damned lonely in the solo pilot chair.

I never, ever wanna get that far-gone. :no: That is audiomasturbation. Egregious self-indulgence. Stupid (IMO...). Wires on mini-stanchions, fer crissake... :blink:

Audio is to share, to enjoy with and expose to others, particularly when we here learn how to configure and set-up a system that honours the source material. Our "chance of success" (a term from my industry...) is far higher than that of our neighbors... HAHA. YES I happen to think this is a classic case of someone trying to impress someone else, with how much money he can spend.On the other hand who knows? if i had more money than sense I might do the same thing. Good thing I dont have much money huh!!:) Maybe he"s trying to get away from Wifey in that solo chair:rotfl: JUST KIDDIN.

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 05:37 PM
HAHA. YES I happen to think this is a classic case of someone trying to impress someone else, with how much money he can spend.On the other hand who knows? if i had more money than sense I might do the same thing. Good thing I dont have much money huh!!:)

You see it don't you, Jim?? I think your statement points out that his 'hobby' is in direct proportion to his income. Now, let's all think about how much our 'hobby' sets us back, and how deep we dig for our upgrades in proportion to our incomes. Now (final thought) imagine yourself a multi-millionaire.. See? Anyone can end up like this-:blink:

Rolf
01-27-2006, 05:47 PM
Man, you simply HAVE NOT heard a modern day record player. In fact I bet few on this forum have. Those that have know what I'm sayin here. Vinyl has been evolving NONSTOP. Unfortunately, many people stopped listening to them. Get to know what a nice, updated vinyl playback system sounds like and is capable of before you make such a sweeping statement. This is not a fight- I'm simply trying to get you into a good shop where you can hear first hand the difference vinyl has made in terms of quality and the ability to reproduce music with amazing emotion. You may change your mind....

First, excuse me for english spellig errors.

Very well. Let us take this from scratc. Do you know what a pick up have to do? The arm with the tiny little needle on must go go left to right and up and down. The needle passes thru "a wall", and is bound to make some noise passing it, even without any movment. This will give noise as the needle is in contact with the vinyl. At a 40Hz tone the needle must go from left to right 40 times a second, without moving the house it is fitted to. At the same time it must move up and down to reproduce a stereofonic sound without moving the house.

In pracitce this is impossible, so the house moves as well, making it's own sound, puting it into the pre-pre-amp, withc increases it to the RIAA, then to the pre-amp, then to the power amp. This noise will NOT disapear.

Regarding to what I have heard of modern analog equipment, and I believe I have heard some of the best, and compared to my Burmaster CD it is far beyond.

Rolf

scott fitlin
01-27-2006, 05:54 PM
there is no cd - hdcd - xrcd -xrcd24- of the same album that will sound as good as a DVD AUDIO - SACD recording. period.:)I agree that SACD does sound great, as good as the best vinyl, and the cleanliness of digital; no ticks, pops, scrtatches, etc.

BUT, where is SACD today? A few titles available from " Boutique " music stores. No real mass marketing of pop, dance or other current music available!

SACD really is sonically the best digital format, but just like Betamax of the 70,s, where is it? Todays generation is going MP3, iPod, and DVD!

Gotta love Sony, no baloney!

:)

Rolf
01-27-2006, 06:04 PM
BUT, where is SACD today?
:)

Yes...Right, Where?

Rolf

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 06:11 PM
First, excuse me for english spellig errors.
Very well. Let us take this from scratc. Do you know what a pick up have to do? The arm with the tiny little needle on must go go left to right and up and down. The needle passes thru "a wall", and is bound to make some noise passing it, even without any movment. This will give noise as the needle is in contact with the vinyl. At a 40Hz tone the needle must go from left to right 40 times a second, without moving the house it is fitted to. At the same time it must move up and down to reproduce a stereofonic sound without moving the house. In pracitce this is impossible, so the house moves as well, making it's own sound, puting it into the pre-pre-amp, withc increases it to the RIAA, then to the pre-amp, then to the power amp. This noise will NOT disapear.Regarding to what I have heard of modern analog equipment, and I believe I have heard some of the best, and compared to my Burmaster CD it is far beyond.
Rolf

Well first off- congrats on owning a Burmester CD player. That's a very nice (yet expensive) component.

I understand fully what you are saying here (your english is fine)- but the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages (in my opinion). Obviously, the theory behind vinyl playback does not sit well with you, and perhaps is destroying your ability to give it a fair shake. I will say this with full conviction: NO CD PLAYER CAN MATCH VINYL FOR DEPTH OF STAGE DURING PLAYBACK. I believe this 100%. It's my opinion. I will recant only when CDs catch up (which they may). Read this entire thread and we have surmised that taste is subjective. Vinyl has qualities (for me) that I hold in very high regard when enjoying a recording. Obviously, CDs have qualities that you hold in high regard. I guess we can agree to disagree. No harm in that.

Ian Mackenzie
01-27-2006, 06:17 PM
First, excuse me for english spellig errors.

Very well. Let us take this from scratc. Do you know what a pick up have to do? The arm with the tiny little needle on must go go left to right and up and down. The needle passes thru "a wall", and is bound to make some noise passing it, even without any movment. This will give noise as the needle is in contact with the vinyl. At a 40Hz tone the needle must go from left to right 40 times a second, without moving the house it is fitted to. At the same time it must move up and down to reproduce a stereofonic sound without moving the house.

In pracitce this is impossible, so the house moves as well, making it's own sound, puting it into the pre-pre-amp, withc increases it to the RIAA, then to the pre-amp, then to the power amp. This noise will NOT disapear.

Regarding to what I have heard of modern analog equipment, and I believe I have heard some of the best, and compared to my Burmaster CD it is far beyond.

Rolf

Rolf,

Just for Grins.....

I don't mean to disagree but the physics say yes and actually the bass is the strong suite of vinyl. The problem is actually at the other extreme.(cc John Eargle.) Each to his own in the end.

Funnily enough 4343's actually sound better on SOA vinyl. Probably because a lot of stuff was mastered on them. I imagine Westakes would sound vastly superior while 4430s (the 2344) put a grin on your face no matter what you play.

Edit or is that Edirol; Remind me to fire the house maid, there's dust on that headshell

jim3860
01-27-2006, 06:27 PM
I agree that SACD does sound great, as good as the best vinyl, and the cleanliness of digital; no ticks, pops, scrtatches, etc.

BUT, where is SACD today? A few titles available from " Boutique " music stores. No real mass marketing of pop, dance or other current music available!

SACD really is sonically the best digital format, but just like Betamax of the 70,s, where is it? Todays generation is going MP3, iPod, and DVD!

Gotta love Sony, no baloney!

:) Sad but true. I went to a sam goodys, the other day and asked the sales person a young man. Where the DVD AUDIO - SACD Titles where kept. He looked at me, like I had lost my mind. SACD what? he finally stammered out. I explained what the 2 formats were to him. He said I dont think we carry those he replied. I ask about concert dvds with DTS tracks. Same response. Never heard of it either. The sad thing is as long as the general public is not aware such formats even exist, let alone how they sound. They are doomed to fail. It is mainly due to the fear of recording studios that people will start to make perfect copies of these formats. And the greed of the copyright holders. that want to charge anyone using these new technologys outrageous sums. that have kept these out of the mainstream. Like hi def TV, Everyone is afraid that people will make perfect HI DEF DVD copys. Its took this many years for them to decide what sort of cable will be used to listen to and watch these formats. Napster really hurt the audio and videophile world. FOR Those who are intrested in SACD titles go to WWW.SA-CD.NET (http://www.SA-CD.NET) supposedly they list all 3600 or so titles available. REGARDS JIM :)

Robh3606
01-27-2006, 06:27 PM
I think boths sides of Vinyl vs Digital are missing the boat in a way. You should really experience both. The speciality stuff like Mobile Fidelity and Direct to Disks and what is made today are what really shines. Most mass produced pop pressings are crap. They suffer from they same if not more issues that commercial CD's. I grew up on Vinyl still have my records and from time to time run them. The Mobile Fidelity Half speeds I have are what is reference quaility not the mass produced stuff the CD replaced. You want reference quality in digital listen to SACD or 24/96. Both formats are capable of stellar performance, shame we don't have any reel to reel at 30ips that's another stunner.


Rob:)

scott fitlin
01-27-2006, 06:27 PM
Rolf,

Just for Grins.....

I don't mean to disagree but the physics say yes and actually the bass is the strong suite of vinyl. The problem is actually at the other extreme.(cc John Eargle.) Each to his own in the end.

:yes:

Yep! Vinyl makes the BEST bass. CD,s may go deeper in frequency, but vinyl sounds warm, and real, and has stomp. I love GUT THUMPING low end, and BIG brown basslines!

FWIW, I have yet to hear a CD, except SACD, that has the depth of a good vinyl recording!

Mr. Widget
01-27-2006, 06:29 PM
Audio is to share, to enjoy with and expose to others...I have to disagree... oh, it's a nice thought, but the fact is if you enjoy 2 channel audio only one person will be able to get the full performance. Others can get most of the performance, but at the high end it is a solo indulgence. We have different philosophies I suppose... the reason I feel compelled to sit on your coffee table to try to get the best from your system... I believe, if you are not in the sweet spot it just isn't stereophonic.

Even 5.1 music is mixed for and intended for a sweet spot. I suppose we could share the experience with friends if we all wore headphones... but then there is another barrier toward the sharing experience.


Widget

Mr. Widget
01-27-2006, 06:32 PM
FWIW, I have yet to hear a CD, except SACD, that has the depth of a good vinyl recording!I agree, though running my "decent" $1200 Sony through a better DAC has dramatically improved the depth. SACD and DVD Audio are certainly superior, but CD through the upgraded DAC is pretty darn listenable.

Widget

scott fitlin
01-27-2006, 06:38 PM
Sad but true. I went to a sam goodys, the other day and asked the sales person a young man. Where the DVD AUDIO - SACD Titles where kept. He looked at me, like I had lost my mind. SACD what? he finally stammered out. I explained what the 2 formats were to him. He said I dont think we carry those he replied. I ask about concert dvds with DTS tracks. Same response. Never heard of it either. The sad thing is as long as the general public is not aware such formats even exist, let alone how they sound. They are doomed to fail. It is mainly due to the fear of recording studios that people will start to make perfect copies of these formats. And the greed of the copyright holders. that want to charge anyone using these new technologys outrageous sums. that have kept these out of the mainstream. Like hi def TV, Everyone is afraid that people will make perfect HI DEF DVD copys. Its took this many years for them to decide what sort of cable will be used to listen to and watch these formats. Napster really hurt the audio and videophile world. FOR Those who are intrested in SACD titles go to WWW.SA-CD.NET (http://www.sa-cd.net/) supposedly they list all 3600 or so titles available. REGARDS JIM :)Nonetheless, " WE " the money spending consumers do not have the very best of music available to us, at most mass market retailers!

At least with vinyl, when they were doing it the right way, you had your choice! Buy records, and if you had a mediocre system, you got mediocre sound, BUT If you had something really good, you could get the magic out of the record grooves!

Today? You buy CD,s and the better is your system, the more you hear what CD,s JUST dont have!

In my buisiness, which plays music for entertainment, and paying customers, I WANT the availability of current HIT music, mixed and recorded properly, on something as good as SACD, if you want to make a digital convert out of me!

Dianne Krall on SACD sounds great through the right system! Whenever I find the right moment to play that on a Saturday night for my paying audience!

Know what I mean?

Ian Mackenzie
01-27-2006, 06:39 PM
What I find interesting is that if you look at the Red book Cd thing, after it was invented there were no real technological advances. It is was it is..fancy DAC's and all.

However, if you look at the humble beginnings of vinyl there was a lot of progression and evolution. The precison in making a modern moving coil cartridge and the engineering behind cutting a disk is quite staggering. The machining of an SOA turntable is impressive and would rival any loudspeaker.

Even today, check out the price of a really good cartridge and phono preamp.
A good cartridge costs b/n $450-1000, a really good one +$2000. A turntable, arm and Phono preamp name your price.

Then look at the price of your CD player and the way its made, particularly the transport. Flimsy plastic and opens and closes like barn door!

Sure there are SOA CD players, SOA SACD and DVD audio players but who owns one? Not too many..because who cares. They just accept what comes out of the box as right.:banghead:

I think we are being had.

scott fitlin
01-27-2006, 06:44 PM
I agree, though running my "decent" $1200 Sony through a better DAC has dramatically improved the depth. SACD and DVD Audio are certainly superior, but CD through the upgraded DAC is pretty darn listenable.

WidgetOh yeah! I heard CD,s run through the Apogee Rosetta DAC, and it is a MAJOR improvement! Darn good, and darn listenable, and DARN EXPENSIVE! I only need to be able to have four separate ins and outs for my CD players! But, even this, still doesnt have the balls of vinyl! But it is good sounding!

Then of course, there is always the issues of the standards, or lack of, regarding production, and engineering of todays current POP music formats, all kinds! Still cant turn lead into gold, although they keep telling us they can!


:D

speakerdave
01-27-2006, 06:47 PM
I was going to stay out of the vinyl debate, but I think I'll put my oar in.

I actively disliked CD's until I got a good player, the Philips SACD1000--now dead and much mourned. Sure the SACD's were great, but this thing made decently recorded CD's sound good.

It's been replaced with an MOR player, the Denon 5900, a very good player, but definitely not as good as the Philips.

I believe that much of the problem with CD's is in the players, specifically the analog sections at the end of the line. A lot of them, maybe most, are pure shit.

I love SACD's, but as a format it is probably dead, killed by the cheating that has gone on in SACD player architecture and SACD disc recording.

As for vinyl. I'll not likely ever have one of those hugely expensive analog front ends, so I have to listen to vinyl in the real world. It's got clicks and pops and inner grove distortion, etc., but it does seem in some ways to have a palpable realism that I've only heard captured on digital with a few SACD's of good analog masters.

This set up I'm listening to now is very nice. The CJ PV9 is a zero feedback design. Midrange unbelievably tactile, refined and real, even with my workingman's front end.

I am lucky enough to be able to take regular refresher courses in live music, so that helps me keep the stereo equipment in perspective. I mostly want to be able to listen and not be annoyed by the defects. That happens with a surprising variety of equipment, digital and analog, tube and solid state. However, I do find that tubes and vinyl give me bonuses of pure pleasure more often.

David

Mr. Widget
01-27-2006, 06:52 PM
The Mobile Fidelity Half speeds I have are what is reference quaility not the mass produced stuff the CD replaced.Back in the day I found the MFSL discs to have a bloated bottom end. I preferred Japanese commercial pressings as they had the same sonics as the normal releases but also had a much quieter background with far less surface noise, ticks and pops. I did find it interesting, once we compared the AM pressing of Supertramp's Crime of the Century with the MFSL half speed master and also with their own UHQR version. Needless to say the UHQR version did sound the best. Interestingly it had the tonal balance of the A&M pressing while the halfspeed master version had the fattened up bottom end.


Widget

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 06:52 PM
I think boths sides of Vinyl vs Digital are missing the boat in a way. You should really experience both. Rob:)

I wish I could afford the best of both. Unfortunately, I had to dig deep to get a record player that was above par. My CD player was only $450 (used)- but I have nearly $1,500 in my record player. That's chump change when you're talking high quality vinyl playback. Don't even ask what my records are worth- I don't really know, But I assume it's worth much more than the player itself. Fact is- I'm broke now. Do I invest in a better CD player, or buy more concert tickets?

Fred Sanford
01-27-2006, 07:16 PM
Love this thread, thanks to all for sharing.


I'll drop a couple of thoughts on the different tangents here:

EQs- one thing many folks don't think about as far as my need or desire to have an EQ available on my playback system- not every recording I have was a pro recording, or even really a good recording. If the only version I have of a live show is from an Aiwa Walkman in 1987 on a normal bias cassette, I'm gonna want a touch of tweaking. If I care about it enough, I'm going to archive it and EQ it when I do, but sometimes, I just need a bunch of quick tone shaping. I'm not going to throw out the 700 or so original-recording cassettes I have just 'cause the format is limited, I'm going to get what I can out of them.

Vinyl- as I think I mentioned in another thread recently, I've been contracted to upgrade the dubbing room and listening room of a major Music Management company. While testing their existing components, I had a bunch of fun listening to some of the test-pressing vinyl lying around their office. Anthem surround preamp, 5 Genelec powered monitors, Velodyne sub, Thorens turntable. Metallica, Bruce Hornsby, Rush, all the labels were blank so it was a sweet surprise each time I dropped the needle (yes, the cue and speed controls were broken on the Thorens, I'll be taking that out for repair). Slammin'. Immediate. Absorbing. Dead silent when it was supposed to be dead silent- I'd guess most of these discs had been played a maximum of 5 times, more than likely they were virgins. Fun fun day.

This is the same client that has 240Ti's in one house and 4412s in another, you'd all like him.

Carry on...

je

hapy._.face
01-27-2006, 07:58 PM
Slammin'. Immediate. Absorbing. Dead silent when it was supposed to be dead silent- je

Thank you!! :applaud:

boputnam
01-27-2006, 08:12 PM
I believe, if you are not in the sweet spot it just isn't stereophonic.Oh, shit... Yer right. I DO have only one ear. We proved that a long while back. Dammit!!!

:rotfl:

Robh3606
01-27-2006, 08:15 PM
"Back in the day I found the MFSL discs to have a bloated bottom end. I preferred Japanese commercial pressings as they had the same sonics as the normal releases but also had a much quieter background with far less surface noise, ticks and pops. "

Ok some where, it was really the man on the lathe that determined how they were cut and what the balance was. Asside from that they were far superior to the standard fair. You also have to keep that "bloated" low end in context to the times. Many recordings were so bass limited due to play times and grove echos as an example they were a shadow of what was really on the master tape. The reel to reel recordings are the real masters like the 96/24 is to CD. What's on vinyl is the cutting engineers skill. The japaneese stuf was also better than most and as imports were just as if not more expensive than the MF stuff. Quality software has always been expensive. The shame of it all is it's the same bean counters that limited quality pressings for the masses also made the decission to make the switch to CD. I remember buying MF for $5 a pop at close out tables in some stores. Remember my first CD purchase, after listenning I was this sucks!!! And back I went to the vinyl till it was essentially no more. You wanted new releases you had no choice. Now SACD is not a viable format and all my son's friends don't buy CD's.They just load up their Ipods at $1 a song. Oh well.

Rob:)

Ian Mackenzie
01-27-2006, 08:33 PM
Magnetic tape as a media tends to have a characteristic bass sound. For example the effect of overload is like a bloom in the bass and aside from that it tends to be warm but has excellent low level resolution which gives vinyl the edge in ambience and localisation from bass cues.

Whereas digital has a cracking sound when overloaded and low level resolution degrades badly and distortion rises at low levels.

Done (mastered) properly 48Khertz 20 bit dat recording can sound very good and is superior to Red book Cd. The extra 4 bits and twice oversampling rate add significant resolution.

scott fitlin
01-27-2006, 08:41 PM
So, now that we are in the " Digital Age ", and analog recordings and vinyl are becoming artifacts of the past, when do we actually get digital audio that is AS GOOD as what we had, on a mass market level?


When do they re-introduce QUALITY to the marketplace?

JuniorJBL
01-27-2006, 09:00 PM
So, now that we are in the " Digital Age ", and analog recordings and vinyl are becoming artifacts of the past, when do we actually get digital audio that is AS GOOD as what we had, on a mass market level?


When do they re-introduce QUALITY to the marketplace?

:dont-know

jim3860
01-27-2006, 09:03 PM
So, now that we are in the " Digital Age ", and analog recordings and vinyl are becoming artifacts of the past, when do we actually get digital audio that is AS GOOD as what we had, on a mass market level?


When do they re-introduce QUALITY to the marketplace? I dunno, wish i did. Hopefully soon, The new Blu ray players will utilize a hdmi cable that is capable of carrying both a 1080p signal and SACD and DVD AUDIO signals. No need for multi channel analog cables. Also there is a digital standard minimum for high def audio. Perhaps when more people are exposed to higher resolution audio it will catch on. Fingers are crossed here. REGRARDS JIM. BTW this has been a great thread. Lots of ideas and opinions on all sides. Ive learned a lot:)

Zilch
01-27-2006, 09:31 PM
The fact is if you enjoy 2 channel audio only one person will be able to get the full performance. Others can get most of the performance, but at the high end it is a solo indulgence.H3100 might shift that prespective a bit.... ;)

edgewound
01-27-2006, 09:56 PM
So, now that we are in the " Digital Age ", and analog recordings and vinyl are becoming artifacts of the past, when do we actually get digital audio that is AS GOOD as what we had, on a mass market level?


When do they re-introduce QUALITY to the marketplace?

There's that little issue called "piracy"...the first copy is as good as the last. The recording industry doesn't like free rides and neither do you on your bumper cars.

Mr. Widget
01-27-2006, 10:20 PM
H3100 might shift that prespective a bit.... ;)No.


Widget

Mr. Widget
01-27-2006, 10:41 PM
So, now that we are in the " Digital Age ", and analog recordings and vinyl are becoming artifacts of the past, when do we actually get digital audio that is AS GOOD as what we had, on a mass market level?

When do they re-introduce QUALITY to the marketplace?Well... they tried. It is the SACD and DVD Audio. This software is capable of being outstanding, however since there are so few of us that care and the record industry is now run by businessmen and not music lovers... we are lucky to have CDs as an option to compressed MP3 files. One example of the business gone wrong is that there are SACDs that are true 1 bit dsd high res data streams of low res red book code. For example the Nora Jones CD that was so popular was later released as an SACD. Unfortunately when they made the SACD they took the red book master and used it for the higher res format instead of remastering the music from the original source. Kind of like using a high end flat bed scanner to copy a really bad Xerox.



I actively disliked CD's until I got a good player, the Philips SACD1000--now dead and much mourned.

I believe that much of the problem with CD's is in the players, specifically the analog sections at the end of the line. A lot of them, maybe most, are pure shit.Since CDs may be the best we are likely to see for some time I was quite happy when I discovered the benefits of bypassing the DAC and crappy analog section of my player.

We have talked about CD players a bit (no pun intended) on these forums, but I don't believe anyone has posted a remarkable discovery... like player XYZ sounds as good as it gets and is almost affordable... I know there have been discussions about the Sony Playstation. I tried one, but found it to be the world's best $10 player but not really any better than a $400 Sony. I have a couple of $1200 CD players and neither of them are substantially better than a $400 player either. I heard a $10K Wadia and it was substantially better than the $400 player, but few can afford that. I know I can't. Other than the now deceased Phillips SACD1000, are there any others that begin to capture the depth and space of analog?


Widget

speakerdave
01-27-2006, 10:57 PM
Your answer is probably the answer--transports and outboard DACs. Unfortunately there is no digital output of SACD as yet as far as I know. It is downsampled for digital out. As soon as I can fit it into my priority list my Denon will become a transport for stereo listening. It's a very nice DVD player.

Some of the expensive CD players may be quite good. I just can't consider spending that much money on one.

David

Ken Pachkowsky
01-27-2006, 10:58 PM
Other than the now deceased Phillips SACD1000, are there any others that begin to capture the depth and space of analog?


Widget

Now thats another thread I would love to follow!

Ken

John
01-28-2006, 01:06 AM
Yea, but he looks damned lonely in the solo pilot chair.

I never, ever wanna get that far-gone. :no: That is audiomasturbation. Egregious self-indulgence. Stupid (IMO...). Wires on mini-stanchions, fer crissake... :blink:

Audio is to share, to enjoy with and expose to others, particularly when we here learn how to configure and set-up a system that honours the source material. Our "chance of success" (a term from my industry...) is far higher than that of our neighbors...

Bo, You took the words right out of my mouth:barf:

John
01-28-2006, 01:18 AM
Dianne Krall on SACD sounds great through the right system! Whenever I find the right moment to play that on a Saturday night for my paying audience!

Know what I mean?

Hi Scott Are you saying you play Dianne Krall for people spinning around in bumper cars???:p


I would think that is more of a Def Leppard crowd???:applaud:

jim3860
01-28-2006, 01:38 AM
Well... they tried. It is the SACD and DVD Audio. This software is capable of being outstanding, however since there are so few of us that care and the record industry is now run by businessmen and not music lovers... we are lucky to have CDs as an option to compressed MP3 files. One example of the business gone wrong is that there are SACDs that are true 1 bit dsd high res data streams of low res red book code. For example the Nora Jones CD that was so popular was later released as an SACD. Unfortunately when they made the SACD they took the red book master and used it for the higher res format instead of remastering the music from the original source. Kind of like using a high end flat bed scanner to copy a really bad Xerox.


Since CDs may be the best we are likely to see for some time I was quite happy when I discovered the benefits of bypassing the DAC and crappy analog section of my player.

We have talked about CD players a bit (no pun intended) on these forums, but I don't believe anyone has posted a remarkable discovery... like player XYZ sounds as good as it gets and is almost affordable... I know there have been discussions about the Sony Playstation. I tried one, but found it to be the world's best $10 player but not really any better than a $400 Sony. I have a couple of $1200 CD players and neither of them are substantially better than a $400 player either. I heard a $10K Wadia and it was substantially better than the $400 player, but few can afford that. I know I can't. Other than the now deceased Phillips SACD1000, are there any others that begin to capture the depth and space of analog?


Widget The sony SA-CD1 is as good as the the phillips SACD1000 in my opinion, you already know that im sure. almost impossibile to find also.:(

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 05:33 AM
'We have talked about CD players a bit (no pun intended) on these forums, but I don't believe anyone has posted a remarkable discovery... like player XYZ sounds as good as it gets and is almost affordable... I know there have been discussions about the Sony Playstation. I tried one, but found it to be the world's best $10 player but not really any better than a $400 Sony. I have a couple of $1200 CD players and neither of them are substantially better than a $400 player either. I heard a $10K Wadia and it was substantially better than the $400 player, but few can afford that. I know I can't. Other than the now deceased Phillips SACD1000, are there any others that begin to capture the depth and space of analog? '
Widget

Now that's a good topic of conversation as I would sorely like to learn something here. I've been frustrated with the process of buying a new CD player and it seems (to me) you really need to ante up for the good ones. It's like there are only 3 budget categories of players- and I guess I'm in the middle right now- wanting to get to the top end. I, too love the Wadia (http://www.wadia.com/products/) Cd players- If I could swing one - I would. I also like the Primare line (I have a Primare (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/uploads/products/thumbs/3282_R20.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/manufacturers_results.asp%3Fmanufacturerid%3D132&h=36&w=100&sz=2&tbnid=FrPu1MM897XP7M:&tbnh=27&tbnw=77&hl=en&start=6&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dprimare%2Bpreamp%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3D en%26lr%3D) preamp that I adore). There are probably others of good merit- but I've heard these two and I like them. Problem is- price. I currently have a Rega Planet (http://www.rega.co.uk/html/planet.htm). The Rega is no slouch, but I know it can be better.... Anyone have some good suggestions?

If someone is interested in Vinyl- there are several good choices out right ow. It seems the market is hitting a homerun with decent quality record players of all budgets.
I currently use a slightly modified Scout (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.vpiindustries.com/images/ariesscout_lrg.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.vpiindustries.com/scout.htm&h=258&w=343&sz=77&tbnid=wc7QUKyjFtao6M:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&hl=en&start=13&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dscout%2Bvpi%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26 lr%3D)- even though there are many that outperform this- I love what it can do!!

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 07:49 AM
There's that little issue called "piracy"...the first copy is as good as the last. The recording industry doesn't like free rides and neither do you on your bumper cars.But Ken, the better is the sound, and the music, the MORE people pay to get on my ride! Learned this many years ago. Music and GREAT sound has a hypnotic effect on people and draws em in! It really does!

I understand about piracy and all that, but, I also think that with all the digital convenience formats, CD, MP3, iPod, and Internet downloading, they really have gotten people to EMBRACE Lo-fi audio!

As compared to when I was a kid, and you heard Zeppelin, or Floyd over a great JBL, or Altec system, set up correctly, and were totally amazed at how good it could sound! We were taught to listen to the finer points, today they are taught to find the easiest and most convenient path!

I know they speak about piracy, but did you ever stop to think maybe the real reason they didnt want a Hi rez format like SACD to become standard was the amounts of money it would take to make studios SACD ready? I mean, we ARE in an age where Dance Music, and Hip Hop can be made at HOME on a computer, without big money studio time, musicians, and session players, and recording engineers, and mastering, etc, etc, etc! And you CANNOT deny, Hip Hop has become todays POP music, and they are making billions off of it.

A Dance Music label can buy a track from a DJ/Producer for $1500 to $2500, put it out, it sells like crazy in Europe, they make crazy money, with a very small investment!

As compared to a Quincy Jones produced Micheal Jackson " Thriller " album that cost BIG COIN to produce!

Yes, Ken, everything is a buisiness, and I sell rides, not give them away, but I was able to make copies to tape years ago that rivaled the vinyl records they were made off of. Everyone made cassettes for their cars, it didnt kill the music industry! DVD and Home Theaters have movie material and hi rez projection and screens, and sound that is in many cases superior to most theaters sound, that can rival a theaters quality, but this didnt kill going out to the movies on Sat night either, lines at the Multiplexes are as long as ever!

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 07:53 AM
Hi Scott Are you saying you play Dianne Krall for people spinning around in bumper cars???:p


I would think that is more of a Def Leppard crowd???:applaud:No, what I mean, is there isnt any availability of current Hit tunes available in SACD for me to use at my buisiness! Lack of material.

I have always been Disco, Hit, and popular music oriented.

mikebake
01-28-2006, 08:35 AM
DVD and Home Theaters have movie material and hi rez projection and screens, and sound that is in many cases superior to most theaters sound, that can rival a theaters quality, but this didnt kill going out to the movies on Sat night either, lines at the Multiplexes are as long as ever!
Thats not what I read. Theaters are down substantially and HT is one of the reasons. It definitely is the reason I seldom go to the theaters.

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 08:49 AM
Thats not what I read. Theaters are down substantially and HT is one of the reasons. It definitely is the reason I seldom go to the theaters.I dont know, when I go out, I see lines at the theaters on Fri and Sat nights!

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 09:13 AM
Thats not what I read. Theaters are down substantially and HT is one of the reasons. It definitely is the reason I seldom go to the theaters.

Yep. The stats support that. Ticket sales are in the gutter when compared to 10 or more years ago!! Most small town movie theaters are closed forever..Sad.
H/T is one of the major reasons, too. Check out this link:
http://www.teako170.com/statsamania.html
Notice the top 100 grossing movies of all time (domestic with inflation adjustments). Note how the top 18 movies were made on or before 1982. Wow!! Something to think about...

Rolf
01-28-2006, 09:16 AM
I guess we can agree to disagree. No harm in that.

Absolutly my friend.:) If we all had the same opinion we would all have the same equipment. That would not be any fun. Would it?:blink:

Rolf

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 09:21 AM
Absolutly my friend.:) If we all had the same opinion we would all have the same equipment. That would not be any fun. Would it?:blink:
Rolf

It would be fun if you were the one making the equipment- and dominating the audio world. But, you are right- part of the fun is hearing new things and opening up your mind to something better; I love that the technology is at a constant state of change! I just hope people that give a shit about good sound will support the industry which supports our ears. I say we boycott some things...

Titanium Dome
01-28-2006, 09:26 AM
There are dozens of other names to be used with people's acquired musical preferences. However, they all hold something in common: they think they have the most credible approach to music appreciation.

Audiophile, simply put, is "one who loves sound." In the rarified atmosphere of todays overheated, overhyped, overdefined, and overmarketed audio world, it's been abused by some and refused by others. The common conception these days is that audiophiles have more money than sense, and they buy expensive, ovepriced, and sometimes useless gewgaws in the quest to have the best system, often according to the advice or opinion of an industry pundit who's suckling at the teats of the esoteric audio manufacturers.

While that may be a bit silly and grossly wasteful, I understand the urge and wouldn't spend too much time being "holier than thou" about it. Sure, some guy will spend $3500 on cables, while I might spend $350 and think mine are equal or better. The plain fact is that if you have a $100,000 system and you use zip cord for wire and the thin black plastic RCA cables for interconnects, it looks stupid. You look like a cheap bastard.

A good analogy is my Sorento. I looked a long time to finally find one that had a manual transmission and steel wheels. It was cheaper (good!), and did just as good a job getting me from point A to point B. When my plain Jane and plain Joe co-workers saw it, they were at first somewhat complimentary, then noticed the manny tranny and the steel wheels. "Oh, it's a stick. Hmm. Well, isn't that kind of...odd?" and "What kind of wheels are those? Steel? I thought something this nice would have alloys. I didn't know they even made wheels like that anymore. I've got alloys on my Explorer." IOW, cheap bastard.

The point? People buy useless things all the time in real life based on how they look or how they're perceived, whether or not they actually improve performance or utility. The next time you're out and about, take a look at how many people spent extra money for alloy or chrome wheels, Even better, look at how many people buy them and never understand (or care) how to take care of them, just like my high end buds who don't know what to do with their high end gear, other than show it off. You look mahvelous! IMO, looking good is enough justification to have "audio jewelry" as a buddy over on AVS calls it.

There are also some guys who "listen with their gear not their ear." If someone has an opinion about something, the techs whip out an RTA chart, a response graph, a tech sheet, or a secret memo and tell you why your perception is incorrect or your conclusion is wrong or your judgment is impaired. The only sound I hear from paper is a crinkling noise when I ball it up and throw it in the trash. :p

OTOH, charts and graphs don't lie, they only report what they are given, and many audio lovers trust them more than the subjective rantings of nontechnical people. There's a laudable sense of certainy and a sense of control that one gains with a technical approach. It's orderly, too, and authoritative, not the undisciplined mess found in opinion and personal preference. I love technical people because they're so rigid and predictable on the one hand, yet very spontaneous and experimental on the other. They are frequently on the look out for ways to take the rule-governed technical universe and turn it on its ear by doing something within the rules that makes it greater than the sum of its parts.

Well, I won't bore you with more, but here's my bottom line: you gotta love what you do. If that means biggest and most expensive, then that's fine by me. If that means most accurate and tests the best, then I'm good with that. If that means Ti tweeters and drivers in seven channels with THX subs, then I'm all for it. If that means horns, massive subs and stunning SPL, then that's very cool (but stay out of my neighborhood after 7 PM, please). Even if what you love most is pissing on other people's fires, I can live with that as long as you're not a complete dousing jerk about it and have a sense of humor. (As if... Most people can't stop 'til they put out the fire. Usually not here at LH fortunately, but ever been to some other forums?)

We hear what we hear, we like what we like, and there's no accounting for taste.

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 09:29 AM
Yep. The stats support that. Ticket sales are in the gutter when compared to 10 or more years ago!! Most small town movie theaters are closed forever..Sad.
H/T is one of the major reasons, too. Check out this link:
http://www.teako170.com/statsamania.html
Notice the top 100 grossing movies of all time (domestic with inflation adjustments). Note how the top 18 movies were made on or before 1982. Wow!! Something to think about...The small town single movie theaters were doomed by the Multiplex theaters, not HT!

I mean, they just couldnt compete with the big Octaplexes. Now you have sprawling theater complexes with over ten movies.

About the top 18 movies being from 1982 or before, is that because of HT, or because they made better movies years ago?

Rolf
01-28-2006, 09:32 AM
Rolf,

Just for Grins.....

I don't mean to disagree but the physics say yes and actually the bass is the strong suite of vinyl. The problem is actually at the other extreme.(cc John Eargle.) Each to his own in the end.

Funnily enough 4343's actually sound better on SOA vinyl. Probably because a lot of stuff was mastered on them. I imagine Westakes would sound vastly superior while 4430s (the 2344) put a grin on your face no matter what you play.

Edit or is that Edirol; Remind me to fire the house maid, there's dust on that headshell

Hi Ian. I agree to a certain point of what you say. The example with the vinyl/cd of a certain recording is right IF the vinyl is a high quality and the cd is a low quality. This is why I do not buy so many cd's. I have done the same many times, comparing, and the result is 123/321http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/wink.gif of the two systems. This made me sell the vinyl and just buy very high quality cd's. (Telarc, Mobile Fidelity, and we have here in Norway a VERY good recording product witch in english might be "the .... ? culture workshop" - in Norwegian: "Kirkelig Kulturverksted".

I like a lot of different music, but what is the point of buying good music if you bash your head on the floor while listening to that terrible sound quality?

Rolf

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 09:37 AM
The small town single movie theaters were doomed by the Multiplex theaters, not HT! I mean, they just couldnt compete with the big Octaplexes. Now you have sprawling theater complexes with over ten movies.
About the top 18 movies being from 1982 or before, is that because of HT, or because they made better movies years ago?

What are you talking about!?!? Dude- 'SMALL TOWN'. As in- no other movie theater around for MILES and MILES.... As in no octaplex in the tri county area. As in "Kids, we'll see that movie when the new video store that opened up on the corner gets it in...".

Titanium Dome
01-28-2006, 09:38 AM
I dont know, when I go out, I see lines at the theaters on Fri and Sat nights!


My GF and I go to the movies regularly, even with the "Two Jims Theatre" in my house. Often the lines are quite long, but sometimes we're one of just a few in the movie house.

I won't blame the movie theater owners, because I know it's a tough business. But I will lay some of the blame at the feet of the movie makers and distributors, who don't seem to have a clue about the realities of the marketplace, just like their idiot cousins in the music business.

If I were younger and my kids were still home, we wouldn't go to the movies much. It's too damn expensive. The movies are generally too violent, too dirty, and bereft of values. I'm a liberal when it comes to freedom of expression, but I'm a conservative when it comes to family values. The movie people take freedom of expression to a ridiculous extreme, yet don't understand how the needs of the consumer, especially the family, are not being met. Then they piss and moan when you don't pay an absurd amount of money to watch their trash.

We get the "Entertainment Book" every year from a local school and we use the Regal discount coupons to get into a show for $6.50 each; otherwise we wouldn't go. The movie house still holds an allure for us as a special night out, but the pricing and the content makes it unattractive to many people, especially families that are careful with their kids.

Rolf
01-28-2006, 09:38 AM
:yes:

Yep! Vinyl makes the BEST bass. CD,s may go deeper in frequency, but vinyl sounds warm, and real, and has stomp. I love GUT THUMPING low end, and BIG brown basslines!

FWIW, I have yet to hear a CD, except SACD, that has the depth of a good vinyl recording!

Hi Scott. Maybe the bass you hear, warm, and real is the result of distortion made by the pickup, just like the distortion made by tubes in the same frequency, and because we have grown up in the vinyl age and believe that "this is how it suppose to sound"?

Rolf

Ken Pachkowsky
01-28-2006, 09:39 AM
Audiophile, simply put, is "one who loves sound."
We hear what we hear, we like what we like.

You do have a talent for cutting through the crap.

Good read

Ken

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 09:42 AM
I like a lot of different music, but what is the point of buying good music if you bash your head on the floor while listening to that terrible sound quality? Rolf

LOl. Slow down Rolf. We agreed to disagree, remember?? I wouldn't exactly say Ian is listening to anything dubbed 'terrible sound quality'. I think (judging from that juicy turntable pic) he's definately got a great system! Perhaps not your cup of tea, eh? Svel av en Helgen- Blod av en Viking.

Rolf
01-28-2006, 09:46 AM
When do they re-introduce QUALITY to the marketplace?

I am also waiting for that Scott.

Rolf

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 09:49 AM
Audiophile, simply put, is "one who loves sound." In the rarified atmosphere of todays overheated, overhyped, overdefined, and overmarketed audio world, it's been abused by some and refused by others. The common conception these days is that audiophiles have more money than sense, and they buy expensive, ovepriced, and sometimes useless gewgaws in the quest to have the best system, often according to the advice or opinion of an industry pundit who's suckling at the teats of the esoteric audio manufacturers.

Great post, btw. I will say I dont think the people you mentioned in the latter part of this paragraph are audiophiles. They are posers. It's how everything great gets a bad rap - the people posing.

Rolf
01-28-2006, 09:55 AM
LOl. Slow down Rolf. We agreed to disagree, remember?? I wouldn't exactly say Ian is listening to anything dubbed 'terrible sound quality'. I think (judging from that juicy turntable pic) he's definately got a great system! Perhaps not your cup of tea, eh? Svel av en Helgen- Blod av en Viking.

No no. I was thinking about all those terrible sounding CD's on the market...:)

Rolf

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 10:02 AM
No no. I was thinking about all those terrible sounding CD's on the market...:) Rolf

Ahh, OK. I'm half Norwegian- I need to keep common ground with you.

Ducatista47
01-28-2006, 10:45 AM
What a nice thread. So many truths from so many sages. And now one happy idiot, namely me.:D

My signature at the bottom of this post, the part in quotes I mean, says it for me. It is all about the music, and a reproduction of the performance, venue or studio, is the impossible yet worthy goal.

The "all about the Music" part means, in my case, that if I have only an mp3 of a great piece of music from the 1930's, I enjoy it completely. If better is available, I want it, of course. How much money will I spend to get better, on program material and reproduction equipment? Depends on the sonic results and how much money I have!

Obviously, I listen to vinyl and digital. Which one in each case? The one I happen to own. Since I listen to my music instead of my equipment, I enjoy whatever I am hearing. That doesn't keep me from knowing a terrible recording when I hear one, unfortunately. To the finer points, I look forward to the convenient future when Digital elements in a signal path equal or best analog only electronics. At this point, pre SACD and DVD-A anyway, digital electronic anything takes something away and for me does not replace it with something as good or better. I think digital HT amps sound terrible. Heck, my CD player has a tube output stage.

When it comes to comparisons, I learned in 1969 that without A-B comparison, it is not possible. Memory is too subjective and faulty to do it any other way. That particular Hippie era lession is why I happen to know that, for my taste, S8R's in JBL made cabinets walk all over a Paragon. That comparison is tough to do from memory. This means, of course, that a sales snob can not claim anything without bringing his rig to our listening rooms and having at it. I appreciate their input, but a snob is a victim of his own hype.

When it comes to audiophile shops, some of us are luckier than others. I may be the luckiest of all. Electronics Diversified (EDI), here in Peoria, is the envy of visitors from little markets like Chicago and Seattle. Floor standing speakers rule here. Classic examples last fifteen minutes on the sales floor. No snob high end here, but the stuff sounds as good or better and costs a lot less. Whatever works better is carried, but it has to work better. Different is most welcome, sucking isn't. It is a little, intimate shop with a warehouse elsewhere full of great used stuff that doesn't fit. Tubes predominate, but Denon is proudly carried, including a killer mos-fet high current integrated model. The shop is really two wonderfull men, both named Don, who took it over maybe thirteen years ago when the founder passed away after a run dating back to the 1940's. They are genuinely very nice and quite informal. How many audiophile shops can you say that about?

The kicker is - the staff and the entire long time clientele love "Junk But Louds." The poor souls who don't have big, classic JBL's make do with other good floorstanders, and I mean good ones, and they want big JBL's. Funny, we all think they need subs if they are not JBL's.:) Even so, a 4350 user has two B380's. You would really like these people. When I told them about snobs calling them Junk But Louds, some became angry. Not one customer likes "polite" speakers. How is that for a place to shop and hang out? BTW, many of the wives come in too, and many are audiophiles as well! Since men outnumber women maybe 100 to one in audio quality appreciation, this is remarkable.

EDI chooses not to carry current new JBL's. They cite too much baggage dealing with the not so good stuff. Being a dealer has plus and minus elements. Enough said.

Since some opinions were offered on this thread, I'll offer one more. Ian, you are so right! Some pieces of equipment are so bloody superior that they are ...superior!:bouncy: Too bad 4345's don't grow on trees, because they DO crap all over most really good speakers. If you haven't lived with a pair, you don't know what Ian, Bo and I are talking about (not that I am worthy to shine their shoes). Lucky for me Subwoof can build whatever he wants, or he would not have sold them to me for any price.:applaud:

Clark in Peoria

Mr. Widget
01-28-2006, 11:57 AM
"...A good audiophile strives to recreate the performance, whereas a poor audiophile listens to his equipment instead of his music..." Recently my wife has taken to walking around the house with her laptop playing music through it's pair of 1/2" dia speakers... even playing some of my favorite music it drives me nuts. I decided, I'd rather listen to some well produced but hated music downstairs than listen to my favorite music through the laptop... it is an extreme case to be sure...



When it comes to audiophile shops, some of us are luckier than others. I may be the luckiest of all. Electronics Diversified (EDI), here in Peoria, is the envy of visitors from little markets like Chicago and Seattle. Floor standing speakers rule here. Classic examples last fifteen minutes on the sales floor. No snob high end here...

EDI choses not to carry current new JBL's. They cite too much baggage dealing with the not so good stuff. Being a dealer has plus and minus elements. Enough said.That does sound very cool. Maybe they'll rethink their position about JBL with the new products that are coming out like the Project Array Series and others.


Widget

Mr. Widget
01-28-2006, 12:00 PM
There are dozens of other names to be used...My wife calls us nerds...

Audio snobbery. It exists to be sure. Look how we dumped on some guy who loved his little Edirols.;)


Widget

Titanium Dome
01-28-2006, 12:13 PM
My wife calls us nerds...

Audio snobbery. It exists to be sure. Look how we dumped on some guy who loved his little Edirols.;)


Widget


I don't think the problem was the Edirols in that case. :screwy:

Mr. Widget
01-28-2006, 12:20 PM
I don't think the problem was the Edirols in that case. :screwy:OK, I was pushing it there;)... but the snobbery exists at all levels. Some people hate expensive gear just because its expensive and others hate the cheap stuff... I like the approach Clark was telling us about with the store EDI... I wish more places were run that way.

Widget

Wardsweb
01-28-2006, 12:40 PM
I travel in a couple different circles of audio guys and gals. I play in the DIY low end camp, the digital domain, vinyl geeks, tubes, solid state, electrostats, horns, etc... and with my last purchase I even stepped foot in the audiofool realm of audio lunacy. Hey, but it's fun and for me, it's all good. Like any learning endeavor the day you think you know it all, you quit learning. The thrill for me is the trip, not the destination. My 2 cents, your mileage may vary.

chad
01-28-2006, 12:49 PM
20 years ago.... what a pathetic bunch we were, listening to grooves in vinyl, tracked by an archaic stylus, connected to an antique cartridge, supported by a 'lever', running through all that old electronic and loudspeaker technology.

We were fools, so naive, having no idea how much 'better' it would be today ;). Yeah, right.

I must say that my most passionate and memorable experiences in recorded and live music were pre-cd, pre-digital, pre-surround. My memories of Spyro Gyra live, subsequent albums, turntable, cartridge, misc. vinyl, 20 year old speakers, and 20 year old receiver will go with me to my grave.

jim3860
01-28-2006, 01:24 PM
20 years ago.... what a pathetic bunch we were, listening to grooves in vinyl, tracked by an archaic stylus, connected to an antique cartridge, supported by a 'lever', running through all that old electronic and loudspeaker technology.

We were fools, so naive, having no idea how much 'better' it would be today ;). Yeah, right.

I must say that my most passionate and memorable experiences in recorded and live music were pre-cd, pre-digital, pre-surround. My memories of Spyro Gyra live, subsequent albums, turntable, cartridge, misc. vinyl, 20 year old speakers, and 20 year old receiver will go with me to my grave. Yes of course that is why so many of us want to buy or rebuild that 57 chevy coupe, or when we went to coney island. All the sight and sounds associated with good times bring back a special time or place.we want to relive those moments. But as much as I love the time as a child listening to the phantom on a huge old tube radio console, i can still remember the sound of the tubes heating up, And the anticipation of the next segment, the following day. I dont miss going to the store with tube that burnt out and finding they were all out of that one.:( I love yesterday. I also love the improvements of today, and buying a copy of stereophile and seeing there is some new leap in technology. I say Have them both. Enjoy your LPS and the memories that come with them. And have the latest digital format at home also.There is no reason they both cant get along and live in the same house.:applaud:

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 01:32 PM
]...All the sight and sounds associated with good times bring back a special time or place.we want to relive those moments. [/size]

Well said Jim. It's probably nostalgia for most. I'm only 32. I grew up listening to tapes. I still like (perfect) vinyl better than any other media to date. Why is that? :o:

I admit, I hate the hassle of records. I spend most of my time listening to CD's. When I want something special- I pop on a record, though. I think having both (as you said) is better than either. :D

Titanium Dome
01-28-2006, 04:02 PM
Over on AVS, Audioreview, and others, I've waded through the ruined landscapes of format wars, wire wars, bi-amp/bi-wire wars, SS/tube wars, even CRT/DLP/LCD wars--holy crap, what a mess! The tone here is so much more civil, I wanted to let everyone know how satisfying it is to know that civilization can still be found in 2006. :yes:

Ian Mackenzie
01-28-2006, 04:05 PM
Equipment comparisons in reference to post no 1.

http://store.yahoo.com/rav/prred80.html

For crying out loud.

Has anyone seen one of those Pro Ac D80.

Its Mini Man system..Tooth Picks for a guy like Bo...two 8 inch woofers per box ..I mean what a fucking let down when you sit in front of a pair of 18 inch woofers. I wonder what was going throught Suz mind at the time.

Size matters ..see below....

Just for comparison two 8 inch woofers = one 12 inch woofer in terms of cone area so this thing would sound like a wimmper Snail Fart instead of a Hippo FART.

This is of course aside from the differences in sensitivity and dyamnic compression that prevails with a smaller system.

I am amazed Bo sayed in there that long...I would have walked....Anything less than 15 inch guns is no show for an 18 inch barrel loader.

edgewound
01-28-2006, 04:36 PM
Over on AVS, Audioreview, and others, I've waded through the ruined landscapes of format wars, wire wars, bi-amp/bi-wire wars, SS/tube wars, even CRT/DLP/LCD wars--holy crap, what a mess! The tone here is so much more civil, I wanted to let everyone know how satisfying it is to know that civilization can still be found in 2006. :yes:

I gotta agree TD...we have a bunch of thoughtful members, fer sher. Your Phd was showing.;)

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 04:37 PM
Equipment comparisons in reference to post no 1. http://store.yahoo.com/rav/prred80.html (http://store.yahoo.com/rav/prred80.html) For crying out loud. Has anyone seen one of those Pro Ac D80. Its Mini Man system..Tooth Picks for a guy like Bo...two 8 inch woofers per box ..I mean what a fucking let down when you sit in front of a pair of 18 inch woofers. I wonder what was going throught Suz mind at the time. Size matters ..see below....Just for comparison two 8 inch woofers = one 12 inch woofer in terms of cone area so this thing would sound like a wimmper Snail Fart instead of a Hippo FART.This is of course aside from the differences in sensitivity and dyamnic compression that prevails with a smaller system. I am amazed Bo stayed in there that long...I would have walked....Anything less than 15 inch guns is no show for an 18 inch barrel loader.

Ian-

I'm new to all that is JBL- are those 4345's? Two big ass 2245H's, 2122H, 2421B, and 2405's?? (I'm learning..). Yeah, I bet they do shit all over most speakers. And to think you dig vinyl too... Ian- you are welcome at my place anytime (too bad you live so far away:().

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 05:44 PM
Hi Scott. Maybe the bass you hear, warm, and real is the result of distortion made by the pickup, just like the distortion made by tubes in the same frequency, and because we have grown up in the vinyl age and believe that "this is how it suppose to sound"?

RolfWell, Ill put it to you this way, when I was about 15 or so, Pink Floyd was in concert at Radio City Music Hall, and I went to this concert, and of course, I have all their albums and CD,s! same for the Grateful Dead!

To me, the basslines on the vinyl album always sounded closer to what I heard in concert, it just more resembles what the real music sounds like! The basslines on the CD never conveyed the same thing, even if IT IS distortions that sound good at work, which, in actuality, IT IS! Same for drums. Drums sound big and real on vinyl, well recorded vinyl, on CD, drums, especially snares, sound like Ticks, rather than snares! Digital still has a bit of that upper frequency glare that tends to make instruments sound thin and wiry to me! Vinyl doesnt.

There are certain distortions that actually make music sound good. I have also listened to totally clean, or as clean as you can get, and found some reference systems to be too clinical and sterile sounding!

I have listened to very efficient speakers, known to colored sounding, and driven by tubes, especially triode tubes, and despite what the specs say is wrong, things like pianos, and vocals come out sounding real! Digital audio, CD,s system processors, they all have fantastic specs! They do, but, listen to real piano off CD recordings, then go listen to a piano in a music store, or maybe at home if you have one, my mom does, and then listen to a vinyl record, and see what sounds the closest to the way the piano really sounds!

Analog seems to have a different timbral presentation than digital. Analog can deliver rich lower mids, which IMHO, makes music sound more realistic, like drums and percussions, and digital seem a bit under pronounced in the midbass, and low mid, but plenty of upper mid and high frequencies! Brass instruments have never had what I love when playing a digital recording as compared to analog. get your hands on Manu Dibango - Soul Makossa, get the album from 1972 or whenever it came out, and see how good that trumpet sounds on your JBL,s off a record, then try to get the same thing from a CD!

Digital audio still does not reproduce a natural sounding top end, I gave up specs a long time ago, and instead, just go with what my ears tell me to.

But, on the other side, digital audio has improved vastly over the last 5 to 8 years, but its still not quite 100% yet.

Jus my opinion.

:)

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 05:49 PM
What are you talking about!?!? Dude- 'SMALL TOWN'. As in- no other movie theater around for MILES and MILES.... As in no octaplex in the tri county area. As in "Kids, we'll see that movie when the new video store that opened up on the corner gets it in...".I dont know about where you live, but here in NYC the movies are full on the weekends. The theaters in Greenacres get jammed, Rockville center gets jammed, and the restaurants, which are good, are packed, here in Brooklyn, the Cineplex Odeon in Sheepshead Bay is packed on weekends!

Blockbuster video does great too, but, people go out on the weekends, and going to dinner and a movie is something people still do here.

I will agree, the movies they make these days are not always the best, and it has become quite expensive. But we do what we do!

Lastly, if I had kids, I agree, there is way too much violence in many of todays movies, and I would not want my children veiwing this all the time, if at all.

Ian Mackenzie
01-28-2006, 06:16 PM
Equipment comparisons in reference to post no 1. http://store.yahoo.com/rav/prred80.html (http://store.yahoo.com/rav/prred80.html) For crying out loud. Has anyone seen one of those Pro Ac D80. Its Mini Man system..Tooth Picks for a guy like Bo...two 8 inch woofers per box ..I mean what a fucking let down when you sit in front of a pair of 18 inch woofers. I wonder what was going throught Suz mind at the time. Size matters ..see below....Just for comparison two 8 inch woofers = one 12 inch woofer in terms of cone area so this thing would sound like a wimmper Snail Fart instead of a Hippo FART.This is of course aside from the differences in sensitivity and dyamnic compression that prevails with a smaller system. I am amazed Bo stayed in there that long...I would have walked....Anything less than 15 inch guns is no show for an 18 inch barrel loader.

Ian-

I'm new to all that is JBL- are those 4345's? Two big ass 2245H's, 2122H, 2421B, and 2405's?? (I'm learning..). Yeah, I bet they do shit all over most speakers. And to think you dig vinyl too... Ian- you are welcome at my place anytime (too bad you live so far away:().

Well next time I'm over I'll have to say hi!

Cheers

Ian

:cheers:

Ian Mackenzie
01-28-2006, 06:52 PM
Scotty,

I agree with everything you say .

That's one thing I found talking and listening to Nelson Pass.

His paper on amps discusses just why this is the case.

http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/seclassa.pdf

I recall hearing one of his simple diy amps with relatively high 2nd harmonic distortion. But played through the right speakers it could make your jaw drop.

None of these simple amps use negative feedback, but the music has a sole.

My own view is its about taste and blending the system.

But that aside you should be able to listen to your system all day every day and not tire nor feel the need to tweak or adjust it. The system should ideally captivate your senses in such a way the sound of individual instruments are so clear that you can hear and visualise the energy while having feeling of being there.

That's easier said than done and with a few rare exceptions I have only found that sensation with the Passlabs AX Series. This is a balanced SE design that cancels out all other distortions to vanishingly low level without negative feedback in the traditional sense.

What your left with is pure energy and coupled to an accurate and linear transducer such as a JBL the results are pretty impressive. Despite the heat I might get the urge to throw the on switch tonight after Tennis Finals.

For those interested, The Aleph, an earlier SE design was big step on the direction of being a pure analogue source while adding a bit of magic and this made other distortions far less obtrusive. If you like a romantic and engaging sound its love and first sight and is a horn lovers dream. The Aleph is probably the most listenable amp in the world, the awards say as much.

I have build several Alephs and I love them to bits on the JBL's.

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 07:27 PM
Scotty, I agree with everything you say . That's one thing I found talking and listening to Nelson Pass.His paper on amps discusses just why this is the http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/seclassa.pdf (http://www.passlabs.com/downloads/articles/seclassa.pdf)
I recall hearing one of his simple diy amps with relatively high 2nd harmonic distortion. But played through the right speakers it could make your jaw drop.
None of these simple amps use negative feedback, but the music has a sole.
My own view is its about taste and blending the system.
But that aside you should be able to listen to your system all day every day and not tire nor feel the need to tweak or adjust it. The system should ideally captivate your senses in such a way the sound of individual instruments are so clear that you can hear and visualise the energy while having feeling of being there. That's easier said than done and with a few rare exceptions I have only found that sensation with the Passlabs AX Series. This is a balanced SE design that cancels out all other distortions to vanishingly low level without negative feedback in the traditional sense. What your left with is pure energy and coupled to an accurate and linear transducer such as a JBL the results are pretty impressive. Despite the heat I might get the urge to throw the on switch tonight after Tennis Finals. For those interested, The Aleph, an earlier SE design was big step on the direction of being a pure analogue source while adding a bit of magic and this made other distortions far less obtrusive. If you like a romantic and engaging sound its love and first sight and is a horn lovers dream. The Aleph is probably the most listenable amp in the world, the awards say as much. I have build several Alephs and I love them to bits on the JBL's.

yet another thing we agree on Ian. Look at some of my earlier posts- I was all about advocating Pass circuits. Even my Threshold amps convey this. I wouldn't trade these solid states in for anything. I do love tubes, though- yet I'm holding out for a tube amp to upset my Thresholds. I would love to give an Aleph a full run!! :bouncy:

hapy._.face
01-28-2006, 08:54 PM
I dont know about where you live, but here in NYC the movies are full on the weekends.


I live in Baltimore. Yes theaters are somewhat crowded on the weekends here, too. But think about it: It's only the weekends. There was a time when people hit a matinee often. People used to see movies during the week a lot more. Walk into one of those huge cinema warehouses on a week DAY and it's a virtual ghost town. I hardly think NYC (as cool as it is) does not represent the nation in microcosm- in fact it has always been the exception. I'm glad people still support a good movie release where you live. I lived in a small town and watched the only movie theater die as several video stores sprang up. I bet many others will relate to this. Again- I posted a link that all but proves the stats you claim are wrong. Maybe for NYC, but not the rest of the country as a whole. There is more $$$ made in DVD releases than the box office for MANY movies. Period. HT is the reason.

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 09:15 PM
I live in Baltimore. Yes theaters are somewhat crowded on the weekends here, too. But think about it: It's only the weekends. There was a time when people hit a matinee often. People used to see movies during the week a lot more. Walk into one of those huge cinema warehouses on a week DAY and it's a virtual ghost town. I hardly think NYC (as cool as it is) represents the nation in microcosm- in fact it has always been the exception. I'm glad people still support a good movie release where you live. I lived in a small town and watched the only movie theater die as several video stores sprang up. I bet many others will relate to this. Again- I posted a link that all but proves the stats you claim are wrong. Maybe for NYC, but not the rest of the country as a whole. There is more $$$ made in DVD releases than the box office for MANY movies. Period. HT is the reason. I hear you, but in my city, video rental stores werent what killed the individual small town theaters!

Over here, in NY, especially Long Island, the single movie, small town theaters went under when places like Sunrise Multiplex at Greenacres opened up. You had 8 movies to choose from, huge parking lots, and surrounding restaurants! I`m sorry, but this happened before HT came along! At least it did here, the small town theaters just couldnt compete with these new giants. In Cedarhurst NY, where I grew up, the Central Theater, our neighborhood theater, closed in the mid 80,s soon after, the RKO on Rockaway Tpke closed as well because they couldnt compete with the multiplexes! This was a bit before HT!

HT is the phenomenon of the late 80,s thru 90,s, to me, this is the time HT began coming into its own, but by this time, multiplexes had already done the small single film town theaters in.

As far as movies becoming a weekend event, where they may have had more buisiness during the week? Well, prices have gone up dramatically! When it cost $2.50 for an adult to see a first run film, I think there may have been higher volume of people in the theaters. In NYC itself, Manhattan theaters are $10.00 and higher to see a flick! It aint cheap entertainment anymore!

I kind of think that economics, as in high prices, caused drop off, more than Blockbuster! You cant get first run films at Blockbuster, you have to wait, unless you buy bootlegs on the street, and they are almost always of terrible quality.

I will agree that HT does not help the movie theater industry in any way, but I really dont think it was HT that killed the theaters. At least it isnt the only reason, just part of it, maybe!

Mr. Widget
01-28-2006, 09:19 PM
I lived in a small town and watched the only movie theater die as several video stores sprang up. I bet many others will relate to this.I grew up (high school years) in a small rural town that had a single theater with balcony built in the 40's... During the 70's I watched it slowly dying and it finally did die in the early 90's. The town hasn't appreciably changed, but now there is a brand new mini multiplex... four small theaters slightly bigger than my HT and it is thriving. The cool old theater downtown sits empty only to be used by the local theater club a couple times a year.


Widget

Ian Mackenzie
01-28-2006, 09:31 PM
Widget,

Who owns the multicomplexes over there. News Limited (Murdock)?

Over here we have Village RoadShow and Hoyts, they have all but killed of the independant cinema's.

I must confess I seldom go to the cinema now with a DVD player & LCD widescreean at home even though my local cinema is 5 minutes walk.

scott fitlin
01-28-2006, 09:32 PM
I grew up (high school years) in a small rural town that had a single theater with balcony built in the 40's... During the 70's I watched it slowly dying and it finally did die in the early 90's. The town hasn't appreciably changed, but now there is a brand new mini multiplex... four small theaters slightly bigger than my HT and it is thriving. The cool old theater downtown sits empty only to be used by the local theater club a couple times a year.


WidgetYou know what I remember about going to the movies in the 70,s? You almost always had to travel a few towns away to get to a theater that was showing what you wanted to see! If there was 8 hot movies out, they were always at different theaters. When the multiplexes began opening up, everyone thought they were great, as now you had a single place to go to, with 8 of the latest new movies!

It seemed like an almost instant death for the small town theaters we grew up in.

As for video rentals, they were OK, but it wasnt as good as going to the movies. My freinds and I didnt think so! Porky`s was so much more fun with 15 of your high school buddies, acting up, and hootin and hollering in the movie theater, then it was at home later on, with video.

Mrs. Dolbricker, can we please call it a " Tallywhacker " ! And the popcorn flew all over the theater. You couldnt do that at home!

Point is, small town theaters were dead bfore HT,s arrival.



:D

Rolf
01-29-2006, 01:02 AM
Hi Scott, and all.

Of cource I know about the distortion that was pressent in the 60's and 70's. (And before and after) I know that is what made the special sound, and I do not want this removed on a cd that has been transformed from analog to digital. When I listen to live bands using the same equipment used in earlier times it is the distortion that make that special sound. Here in Norway we have a band named DET BETALES. They only play old Beatles music, and as far as I can see they use the same equipment the Beatles used in their days. And there is a lot of distortion from that equipment.

What I want is that sound on a cd. If you play a recording of this on a vinyl you get that sound + the distortion the pickup/arm etc produces. On a cd you should be able to listen to the recorded distortion, but no new added distortion.

I know this is theory and that such cd's are very rare. I have a few. One example must be John Lennon's Imagine on Mobile Fidelity Soundlab.

I agree in many parts of what you (and many others) say about vinyl versus cd, but with a cd recorded the best possible way, carefully selected electronics, cables and speakers the cd is superior to the vinyl.

Anyway folks, that is my opinion.

At last I agree in that both systems should live together. Hopfully there will come a format and tecnology that everybody agree in is the best. Until that day we must accept the foults our equipment have.

Rolf



Well, Ill put it to you this way, when I was about 15 or so, Pink Floyd was in concert at Radio City Music Hall, and I went to this concert, and of course, I have all their albums and CD,s! same for the Grateful Dead!

To me, the basslines on the vinyl album always sounded closer to what I heard in concert, it just more resembles what the real music sounds like! The basslines on the CD never conveyed the same thing, even if IT IS distortions that sound good at work, which, in actuality, IT IS! Same for drums. Drums sound big and real on vinyl, well recorded vinyl, on CD, drums, especially snares, sound like Ticks, rather than snares! Digital still has a bit of that upper frequency glare that tends to make instruments sound thin and wiry to me! Vinyl doesnt.

There are certain distortions that actually make music sound good. I have also listened to totally clean, or as clean as you can get, and found some reference systems to be too clinical and sterile sounding!

I have listened to very efficient speakers, known to colored sounding, and driven by tubes, especially triode tubes, and despite what the specs say is wrong, things like pianos, and vocals come out sounding real! Digital audio, CD,s system processors, they all have fantastic specs! They do, but, listen to real piano off CD recordings, then go listen to a piano in a music store, or maybe at home if you have one, my mom does, and then listen to a vinyl record, and see what sounds the closest to the way the piano really sounds!

Analog seems to have a different timbral presentation than digital. Analog can deliver rich lower mids, which IMHO, makes music sound more realistic, like drums and percussions, and digital seem a bit under pronounced in the midbass, and low mid, but plenty of upper mid and high frequencies! Brass instruments have never had what I love when playing a digital recording as compared to analog. get your hands on Manu Dibango - Soul Makossa, get the album from 1972 or whenever it came out, and see how good that trumpet sounds on your JBL,s off a record, then try to get the same thing from a CD!

Digital audio still does not reproduce a natural sounding top end, I gave up specs a long time ago, and instead, just go with what my ears tell me to.

But, on the other side, digital audio has improved vastly over the last 5 to 8 years, but its still not quite 100% yet.

Jus my opinion.

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

Ducatista47
01-29-2006, 10:06 AM
Recently my wife has taken to walking around the house with her laptop playing music through it's pair of 1/2" dia speakers... even playing some of my favorite music it drives me nuts. I decided, I'd rather listen to some well produced but hated music downstairs than listen to my favorite music through the laptop... it is an extreme case to be sure... Widget

Perhaps an eight dollar pair of sony headphones would improve her sound and your peace of mind.:)

Clark in Peoria

Akira
01-29-2006, 11:12 AM
Without a doubt vinyl has superior "musical texture" over CD. If you compare an excellent sounding album (Steely Dan's--Aja) for example, the CD sounds excellent, all of the sounds are there. But, when you do a direct A/B with the vinyl copy, you can't listen to the CD...sounds flat and harsh; the vinyl copy has depth and a musicality that gets better and more dynamic the louder you turn it up.
Such a comparison is faulty. Aja was recorded in 1977 and was a slick high end production that was recorded analog, mixed analog and mastered analog. (AAA) There are engineering tricks which are used throughout the chain at every stage to offer the end presentation you hear and have grown to appreciate as quality sound. For example in those days, 45Hz was considered the lowest frequency you could cut without the lathe head jumping out of it's groove. To facilitate the explosive "english drum sound" which came alive in the 70's with such productions as Pink Floyd, Supertramp and Elton John's Yellow Brick road, an engineering trick was to boost kick drum at 31.5Hz on the way up and band limit on the way down. The consoles at the time were lined with lead and gave a solid beefy sound, especially when the EQ's kicked in. Even the initial bed tracks were purposely over saturated. Unlike the hard clip of digital, the right amount of tape over saturation increased 3d and 5th harmonic distortion resulting in a very musical sound.

Today and for several years now, the same step by step 'digital' process applied in the digital realm can yield even superior results. (DDD) Modern consoles have 24 bit digital reproducers built into every channel. Every knob has a digitally controlled motor which can recall any function in real time, reproduce every movement of the human hand and return to zero at a touch of the button. HOWEVER, the same high end process must be followed. You need a real engineer with excellent session men and a fabulous natural sounding facility. The only difference is that front end processing is still captured with analog gear. Drums first flow into Neve vintage preamps. Valve compressors and equalizers yield qualities that are not possible in the digital domain. BUT, ONCE THE ACOUSTIC SIGNITURE IS CAPTURED....IT IS CAPTURED. If it is done right, you would have an almost impossible time trying to tell the difference. True the ridiculously low sampling rate of 44,1KHz of a CD will always get in the way, but this effect is less noticeable in a DDD conversion. If you have ever heard a world class digital facility it sounds unf--king believeable. No shortage of fidelity anywhere. Drums have more attack and dynamics by 20db. Unlike analog, when you make a change or use a subtle effect the result is dramatic; you really hear the change. Digital has vastly superior headroom, which today goes unused. Every mickey mouse sound guy wants to overload the signal.

The reason digital recordings of such fidelity are rare today is the result of all of the reasons that have been discussed previously in this forum. Very few musicians record this way. In fact, the last bastion of high end production, country music, prefers to go 2" analog 24 track. While the majority of digital productions are Pro Tools in the basement.
I have personally owned high end turntables, DAT machines and 24 track analog multitracks, and I can tell you that the "process" in combination with a quality source is what creates the fidelity.

hapy._.face
01-29-2006, 12:27 PM
Thanks, Akira! Very enlightening. I learned something. From time to time I guess we all forget about the source material and all the intricacies behind it. I know digital is the future- I just want musicianship and quality engineering (on a mainstream) to catch up. Until then- my best material remains vinyl. I suspect there were more heroic efforts with regard to absolute quality produced AAA.(??) Fewer today in digital.(?) I'll be the first to usher in digital (full bore) when the industry finds it profitable to crank out more high end recordings.



I fantasize about the future of music playback. Perhaps we will all sit around in our listening rooms with actual instruments that are being played by recorded triggers. Now THAT would be great!

edgewound
01-29-2006, 01:22 PM
Thanks, Akira! Very enlightening. I learned something. From time to time I guess we all forget about the source material and all the intricacies behind it. I know digital is the future- I just want musicianship and quality engineering (on a mainstream) to catch up.



Yes Akira...great post.

This comes back to the discussion of the competency of the artist and recording technicians, and the quality that they lay down for the listener.

One of the finest contemporary CD's I have ever listened to is Kenny Loggins' "Leap Of Faith" recorded in 1994. It was recorded D-A-D. Lot's of dimension and detail, texture, depth, fabulous low end, mids, and high end. It was captured in the digital domain, mixed down in the analog domain, and marketed/distributed on Digital Compact Disc. The producer was Kenny Loggins' his'self and Engineered by Terry Nelson. The product is stellar, because these professionals are just that...professionals that have a passion for what they do, and do it well.

Quality has taken a backseat in EVERY industry for sake of the bottom line mentality of our "want it now" entitlement driven society, and the wisdom of product penny-pinching MBA's that run everything from record companies to your health insurance provider. They will decide what kind of quality you get because it's more profitable for them. And they'll keep deciding what we get, because we keep paying for absolute crap, and we don't do enough about it to change. When more than half of the voting public doesn't vote, you'll get what you don't vote for. And if we keep not voting by not withholding our hard earned dollars for their crap product...well...you get what you pay for. I, personally, don't buy much new music anymore because not much new music interests me...must be because I'm way over 30.

I'll step down from the soap box now.:)

Mr. Widget
01-29-2006, 02:49 PM
They will decide what kind of quality you get because it's more profitable for them. And they'll keep deciding what we get, because we keep paying for absolute crap, and we don't do enough about it to change. When more than half of the voting public doesn't vote, you'll get what you don't vote for. And if we keep not voting by not withholding our hard earned dollars for their crap product...well...you get what you pay for. I, personally, don't buy much new music anymore because not much new music interests me...must be because I'm way over 30.So vote! Buy SACDs or DVD Audio discs... if enough people did the bean counters... who are good at counting beans and little else will see that regular CDs get MP3ed and downloaded by the freeloaders... you know who you are... and the high res digital actually gets bought. I just checked and Leap of Faith isn't available as SACD, but a greatest hits album with at least some of that material is... go buy it... Vote!

I am frequently surprised to hear people mention so much of the music from 20-30 years ago that they are still listening to. I put that stuff on to from time to time, but I find plenty of cool new stuff is out there. Spend some time at a Virgin Mega Store or the like or better yet a small mom and pop where they actually know music and take a listen.


Widget

jim3860
01-29-2006, 03:01 PM
So vote! Buy SACDs or DVD Audio discs... if enough people did the bean counters... who are good at counting beans and little else will see that regular CDs get MP3ed and downloaded by the freeloaders... you know who you are... and the high res digital actually gets bought. I just checked and Leap of Faith isn't available as SACD, but a greatest hits album with at least some of that material is... go buy it... Vote!

I am frequently surprised to hear people mention so much of the music from 20-30 years ago that they are still listening to. I put that stuff on to from time to time, but I find plenty of cool new stuff is out there. Spend some time at a Virgin Mega Store or the like or better yet a small mom and pop where they actually know music and take a listen.


WidgetAgreed. I just bought a john hiatt album master of disater on SACD not because i particularly like him. But it did win listeners choice award in the last sacd dvd audio awards. i Just love great music:applaud:Also there is lots of great albums avilable from the 70s and 80s hotel california the album and dark side of themoon are both available on DVD AUDIO eagles - pink floyd.

edgewound
01-29-2006, 03:13 PM
. I just checked and Leap of Faith isn't available as SACD, but a greatest hits album with at least some of that material is... go buy it... Vote!


Widget

I did buy it...in 1994 when it was new....and it still listens well. My point was that CD's and digital can be done well...by people that choose to do things well. I've got a number of great Jazz CD's that are spectacular. Hip Hop and Dance/R&B doesn't fit that bill for me...and I certainly know it doesn't for you too...and doesn't require hi res systems to make the youngins' buy it...or iTune it. So yeah...I already do vote;). The great recording studios are fading away and so is lots of great artistic talent that used to be more cultivated by those same studios and record labels. Some see this as a positive for the indie artists 'cause there's less record label control...but geez...I dunno.

scott fitlin
01-29-2006, 04:02 PM
I did buy it...in 1994 when it was new....and it still listens well. My point was that CD's and digital can be done well...by people that choose to do things well. I've got a number of great Jazz CD's that are spectacular. Hip Hop and Dance/R&B doesn't fit that bill for me...and I certainly know it doesn't for you too...and doesn't require hi res systems to make the youngins' buy it...or iTune it. So yeah...I already do vote;). The great recording studios are fading away and so is lots of great artistic talent that used to be more cultivated by those same studios and record labels. Some see this as a positive for the indie artists 'cause there's less record label control...but geez...I dunno.IMHO, the truth really is the fact that the music labels, and audio manufacturers found out they really could get away with selling less than optimum items, and that they could profit considerably more and people didnt care because it was convenient, and easy to use.

The fact is the once great recording studios are fading away and the people that have and had the knowledge of what makes music really come to life are also becoming extinct.

Music of the past is great, it always will be, but I also like to look to the future, and as Widget said, there are some cool things out there, but my problem is I find ALOT of cool music that was recorded like shit!

Label and industry people tell me no one hears the difference! They say this is what they want, I say they want what the industry tells them to want! I know I hear the differences, and most of the time, dont like it!

Here in NYC, quite a few radio stations that used to play NEW music, went to oldies, classic, and 60,s 70,s and 80,s formats! And they have much listener appeal! I think the industry doesnt really pay attention to whats really happening and just goes ahead and forces what THEY want to do, down the publics throats!

Its kind of like this forum in a way! Vintage JBL blew up out of this world on ebay, as did alot of vintage audio, everyone is discovering the satisfaction of yesterdays audio engineering gems, you would think some of the bean counters at major audio companies would take notice and try to have capitalized on manufacturing a " Legacy " product or two!

Then when you talk to someone that works for a company you once used to love the products from, they tell you they cant make that anymore, its too costly to manufacture! And thats when you actually get to talk to someone that actually knows a thing or two! The other side is when you talk to a company rep who doesnt even know about the things their company made, and doesnt know as much about audio as you do!

I wouldnt mind digital audio if it was as good as it was supposed to be! Mass Market digital audio SUCKS! SACD is good, but I want TODAYS music recorded in high quality formats! And speaker companies that manufacture speakers that sound great by todays or yesterdays or any days standards!

BTW, I DID VOTE! And we still got Bush anyway, and look what he did! :barf:

scott fitlin
01-29-2006, 04:29 PM
How come the industries didnt mind giving us Hi Rez digital video and film formats?

edgewound
01-29-2006, 06:26 PM
How come the industries didnt mind giving us Hi Rez digital video and film formats?

Because that's an easier sell to the general public...in the big box stores...doesn't matter how noisy the store is...they can show a great picture if they want to....not so easy with audio....is it?

BTW....we were talking about voting for products with our dollars....not Presidents. We've discovered it's not a good idea to go there;) .

SUPERBEE
01-29-2006, 06:36 PM
One simple rule: When I hear something I like, I buy it.

So today I own vintage Mac and JBL. I have owned the same main system for 16 years and have never "upgraded" , "modified", or "added on" anything.

I think I am gonna go blast the Mono LP pressing of the Byrds "Younger Than Yesterday" and have a beer or 7

scott fitlin
01-29-2006, 06:52 PM
Because that's an easier sell to the general public...in the big box stores...doesn't matter how noisy the store is...they can show a great picture if they want to....not so easy with audio....is it?

BTW....we were talking about voting for products with our dollars....not Presidents. We've discovered it's not a good idea to go there;) .Yeah, I know!

But my point is, once upon a time, we wouldnt have settled for some of the garbage they churn out these days as the latest and greatest.

To me, the simple fact that vinyl is still around, and there is still debate over analog -vs- digital tells me NOT everyone accepts what the corporate bean counters tell us, and maybe there is truth to what we say! Analog and vinyl were supposed to be completely extinct by this time.

I dont think audio is really a hard sell at all, because there are always people who have money looking for the BEST, and/or looking for status symbols for their home to represent their financial achievements! Companies like B & W arent making 801,s for nothing!

Or the fact that vintage JBL and Altec are sought after so highly, even with companies around making products today utilizing technology that should surpass the old stuff.

IMHO, digital audio, at least the digital audio thats readily available still has a long ways to go before its really good enough!

Robh3606
01-29-2006, 07:12 PM
'Because that's an easier sell to the general public...in the big box stores...doesn't matter how noisy the store is...they can show a great picture if they want to....not so easy with audio....is it?"

It's a different world from the 70's early 80's. Big box stores have tried to take over in all aspects of retail goods. It's only recently Best Buy has dropped in the Magnolia rooms into the stores seeing there is a market for higher end gear. This provides a place where you can really get a half way decent audition away from the noisey open set-ups. Just like all the smaller stores we grew up with. That to me is hope that there are more people out there.

Rob:)

scott fitlin
01-29-2006, 07:25 PM
It's a different world from the 70's early 80's. Big box stores have tried to take over in all aspects of retail goods. It's only recently Best Buy has dropped in the Magnolia rooms into the stores seeing there is a market for higher end gear. This provides a place where you can really get a half way decent audition away from the noisey open set-ups. Just like all the smaller stores we grew up with. That to me is hope that there are more people out there.

Rob:)There are MORE people out there!

Just like people can feel the difference when driving a BMW or Mercedes top of the line automobile, they can hear the difference between good and mediocre audio gear.

If you give them the choice, there are people who can afford to buy good stuff, and will if they are offered the chance when they hear it!

:D

hapy._.face
01-29-2006, 08:12 PM
If you give them the choice, there are people who can afford to buy good stuff, and will if they are offered the chance when they hear it!



Scott, you seem like a very cool guy to me. So it is with slight regret that I disagree with you. I think the majority of Americans are overstuffed swine when it comes to buying habits. If it's slop we buy- slop we are served. If you are living in this day, and you've money to spend, and you don't know what your choices are: you deserve total crap. Period. Don't fool yourself into thinking those magnolia rooms are serving up a better meal either. It could be rehashed sh!t with glitter on it. That's even more of a sucker punch to the wallet. The really good stuff is usually harder to find- but worth the effort. IME. FORTUNATELY- I'm excited to see forum members that understand the value of purchase power. That makes me feel optimistic. TD, Edgewound, Superbee, Mr. Widget, and others pretty much hit the homerun on this issue. 'Spend wisely'. I'm so happy to discover JBL and its value just before every incestuous brother is left fighting for the last crumb of the good stuff. How much was a used McIntosh amp 10 years ago? Same amp today? I say buy all the JBL you can get your hands on before it's gone. I owe Giskard for ribbing me into fixing my L212's and giving them an audition before dismissing and selling. Great way to start. Now I'm buying JBL left and right.
If we keep clinging on to the good gear- I mean the really good gear- it's only a matter of time before companies will be forced to pull a better product out of the bag to compete with that market share. I'll be waiting. (It must be somewhat affordable, too.:) ) Same goes for digital recordings. I loved some of the SACD releases, problem was- where did they go? I bought them. Limited choices, but I gave that a shot. I was sad to watch that dwindle too. It's like the market is running full speed in opposite directions. wtf? :blink:

scott fitlin
01-29-2006, 08:37 PM
Its ok to disagree, I feel the Magnolia rooms may not be the BEST place to look for upscale high quality goods, but its a start!

Not everyone is going to turn into one of us, thats a fact, but a few will! you might be surprised what people can hear, WHEN they hear well recorded music over a good system!

People that know a little bit, will do their homework, and seek out an audio shop that sells higher quality goods than your local Best Bull, or Circuit City have to offer!

There are high end shops around, but, some are good, and sell proper goods to fit the clients application and needs and wants. And some, as has always been the case, are thieves, and BS artists!

People really DO have to do their research, ask lots of questions, and go out, and actively listen at good audio shops, and some really do, others just go out and spend their money on whats flashiest, or the latest!

Others fell into great sound quite accidentally! They were looking for CHEAP audio, and got a good price on some OLD junk that no one wanted anymore, but it still worked so it was good enough, and to their surprise, they found out that OLD junk sounded great!

And then, there are those who really arent satisfied with what is currently available, and seek out quality, be it new or vintage! Look at tubes! Who ever would have thought tubes would come back into audio with such a vengeance? I cant tell you how many people I know who openly tell you they dont really know audio, and arent sure if they can hear what IT is WE are talking about, hear some great speakers driven by some tubes, and go completely GAGA over them!

:)



But there are people out there!

hapy._.face
01-29-2006, 08:41 PM
OK. Now we agree 100% :applaud:

jim3860
01-29-2006, 11:51 PM
Its ok to disagree, I feel the Magnolia rooms may not be the BEST place to look for upscale high quality goods, but its a start!

Not everyone is going to turn into one of us, thats a fact, but a few will! you might be surprised what people can hear, WHEN they hear well recorded music over a good system!

People that know a little bit, will do their homework, and seek out an audio shop that sells higher quality goods than your local Best Bull, or Circuit City have to offer!

There are high end shops around, but, some are good, and sell proper goods to fit the clients application and needs and wants. And some, as has always been the case, are thieves, and BS artists!

People really DO have to do their research, ask lots of questions, and go out, and actively listen at good audio shops, and some really do, others just go out and spend their money on whats flashiest, or the latest!

Others fell into great sound quite accidentally! They were looking for CHEAP audio, and got a good price on some OLD junk that no one wanted anymore, but it still worked so it was good enough, and to their surprise, they found out that OLD junk sounded great!

And then, there are those who really arent satisfied with what is currently available, and seek out quality, be it new or vintage! Look at tubes! Who ever would have thought tubes would come back into audio with such a vengeance? I cant tell you how many people I know who openly tell you they dont really know audio, and arent sure if they can hear what IT is WE are talking about, hear some great speakers driven by some tubes, and go completely GAGA over them!

:)



But there are people out there! Yes i agree on a couple of accounts. 1 being that people need to be exposed. when i first started searching for a sound system i had no idea what to buy or how to go about it. i started looking at sears sams club etc for home theater in a box. luckily enough a friend at work said you dont want that crap, and i said huh it sounds good te me and its convient everyting is there 5 speakers receiver dvd playeretc why not? well he invited me over to his house. WOW what a eye opener or in my case a ear opener. i truthfully didnt know how music could sound till then. he had a pair of paradigm refernce 100s v2. a 200w adcom amp a adcom preamp a sony sacd player. I really didnt want to leave. i could have listened for days:applaud: he asked how much i wanted to spend, and reccomeneded a decent receiver. JBL L100ts and L80ts for rear or side surround. I spent what my target budget was. i got a decent sony receiver for $800.00 that listed for $1500.00. A pair of L100ts A pair of L80t3s A pair of L112s for center and rear surround. all for around $2000.00. $600.00 plus of that was shipping. And i havent looked back. am always looking to upgrade now. point is i didnt know until i was exposed to decent audio that there was any real difference. so magnolia stores are great we need more audiophiles out there we need our voices heard maybe if there is enough of us the music industry will start to produce quality digital recordings to the masses:)

Merkin Berfel
02-15-2006, 03:14 AM
We audio fans got screwed 25 years ago when CD came out and we have a few years to go before the dust settles. Audio was mastered at 96k back then and sold at 44.1. Vinyl had it all over CD's for sound quality but it could not survive as a mass-market product. The music-industrial complex has an obsolete business model and they're having a hard time letting go of it. There will not be a readily-available Hi-Def audio format as long as sales depend on packaging and shipping product. The number of audiophile consumers is too small. Which format do you want? 2-channel? 5.1? 7.1? DVD? How can you expect a store to carry them all? iTunes and the like are the model for how we'll be getting our music in the not so far-off future. I'm not saying we'll be using 128k MP3 but downloading HD audio in FLAC right now is feasible. A 1gb download can take a while and 4 or 9gb are about out of the question at this point but two years from now it may be a different story. I have no problem with hard-drive based audio storage. What's the difference between bits on a hard drive and bits on optical media? If you want portability you transfer your bits to a flash drive and play them in your car or a friends house. If you want to spend money you invest in a high-dollar D/A converter and you can argue about the merits of one or another the same as you do now.

Mr. Widget
02-15-2006, 09:18 AM
I agree this is the future... I only hope that there are enough consumers wanting the hi-res stuff so that the industry actually creates and distributes all music in a hi-res format... there will always be a few tweak labels producing hi-res, just as there are today, but it would be a shame if we were software limited due to market demands... or lack there of.


Widget

Ken Pachkowsky
02-15-2006, 10:25 AM
This is an interesting thread. Perhaps one or more of you could give a brief explanation of D/A conversion? I for one am totally uninformed concerning the technology. Obviously a decent converter would enhance my listening experience. I have been meaning to ask this question for some time.

Ken

JBLnsince1959
02-15-2006, 10:38 AM
I only hope that there are enough consumers wanting the hi-res stuff so that the industry actually creates and distributes all music in a hi-res format...


Widget

It hasn't happened in 7 or 8 years of Hi-res, so don't hold your breath

briang
02-15-2006, 02:47 PM
It hasn't happened in 7 or 8 years of Hi-res, so don't hold your breath So true. I struggle to find titles I want in Hi-Resolution formats.

It seems people actually think MP3s sound OK.:banghead:

JuniorJBL
02-15-2006, 03:19 PM
So true. I struggle to find titles I want in Hi-Resolution formats.

It seems people actually think MP3s sound OK.:banghead:


Yeah they boost the HF and LF when compressing so "it has more bass must be better!"

:blah:

Titanium Dome
02-15-2006, 04:20 PM
I agree this is the future... I only hope that there are enough consumers wanting the hi-res stuff so that the industry actually creates and distributes all music in a hi-res format... there will always be a few tweak labels producing hi-res, just as there are today, but it would be a shame if we were software limited due to market demands... or lack there of.


Widget

This is an opportunity for an entrepreneur. Large media companies like Universal and Sony have no clue about this, and distribution deals based on hardware profits (like the Apple iTunes/iPod model) will likely never bother to create a model based on high quality downloads. They can make plenty of money as is, and the market is growing in the opposite direction of audiophile whiners.

Consumers want all their music all the time in a personally convenient and hip package that they can plug into a stationary system when needed and it sounds "as good as" the average CD. That's where the industry goes to follow the money.

So now enter Joe Geek and his partner Sue Audiophile. They know that some musicians and most professional sound engineers care about sound and are recording material in a quality that will never be fully utilized. So maybe Joe and Sue get some backers and try to "lease" the high quality masters to make time-limited duplicates which are available as live streams from high bandwidth servers 24 hrs. a day or as downloads from a service.

If each could make a million or two a year with this model while returning profits to their investors...

Yes, I know the flies in this ointment are the jackasses at the music companies, but I can dream can't I?

Titanium Dome
02-15-2006, 04:29 PM
So true. I struggle to find titles I want in Hi-Resolution formats.

It seems people actually think MP3s sound OK.:banghead:

I think they sound fine in an appropriate context. When I'm on a treadmill or driving in my car or listening in my office at low volume, they're perfectly suitable. The fact that everything I want is right at my fingertip on my iPod is a marvelous thing.

When I have after event parties (like after a fundraiser), the iPod running through a couple of JBL EONs is perfectly acceptable as we drink, dance, and shout our way through the night.

At home in the Two Jims Media Cave, the iPod is silent while the DVD-As, 96/24 CDs, DTS CDs, and LPs play.

Merkin Berfel
02-15-2006, 06:30 PM
Variable Bit-Rate MP3 is okay. The sound quality is perfectly acceptable for casual listening or less-than-reference systems. About the only audible artifacts are the old MP3 swoosh you always hear with applause. I have yet to hear a player that can't handle the format. I was surprised that my new Chevy work van came with an MP3 compatible radio/CD.

BTW - downloadable Hi-Def audio is inevitable. Capitalism says the the owners of the master tapes will sell you the same thing in as many different formats as you're willing to buy. Especially if all they have to do is put a clone of the 96k digital master on a web server and charge you $25.00 a crack to get your own copy. How many different versions of Dark Side Of The Moon have you owned? 8-track... cassette... vinyl... MFSL hi-zoot vinyl... CD... I believe there is a 5.1 mix in the making also.

scott fitlin
02-15-2006, 08:24 PM
BTW - downloadable Hi-Def audio is inevitable. Capitalism says the the owners of the master tapes will sell you the same thing in as many different formats as you're willing to buy. Especially if all they have to do is put a clone of the 96k digital master on a web server and charge you $25.00 a crack to get your own copy. How many different versions of Dark Side Of The Moon have you owned? 8-track... cassette... vinyl... MFSL hi-zoot vinyl... CD... I believe there is a 5.1 mix in the making also.Downloading music is already here, in the dance music community, of which I am part of, every DJ is now going to www.beatport.com (http://www.beatport.com/), and downloading like we used to shop in record stores! They have 24 bit CD quality downloads or mp3 downloads, you choose! We use a laptop, and there are a few different programs for playback available, I am going to use the Rane Serrato, it uses the laptop ( Mac G4 ), a turntable interface, and two vinyl type records. You play the files like a record, the time code and midi are encoded into the plastic records, and you use the turntables to trigger the computer! It really sounds good, actually better than a CD, and somewhat laid back in the mids, similar to the vinyl sound, but no feedback, no skipping, and no record and needle wear!

Most of all, the amount of music available is incredible! And good dance music, not trash! you gotta sort through many titles, just like searching and listening in a music store, but, now you no longer have to travel to the music store, no more out of stock, or out of print. Its all there! And this is the future, DOWNLOADING!

For the DJ, that you play the files like a record is great, you cue up, beatmatch, handle the turntable, and, the sound quality is really good. So is the prices! $1.99 to $2.49 a track!

I am embracing the new technology this time around, I heard it, I played with it, and the record stores no longer carry the product I need, but the download website does, and it REALLY does sound good. And its fun to use! So much music available, playing music is fun again!

Soon, everyone will download music! Maybe movies too!

www.beatport.com (http://www.beatport.com/). Check it out, its a dance music site, but, this is where music is going! This is the future of shopping for music! Soon, there will be sites like this one, for jazz, and every kind of music!

Heres the technology to play the music with>>>> http://www.djmart.com/djgear/ranescratchlive.html

Also, so very coooool!

:D

Titanium Dome
02-16-2006, 07:22 AM
ScottyJ, thanks for that info. I am so there!

At least 30% of my listening is to dance tracks and club mixes, so this is a great bit of information. And hey, I've got the Mac G4 PB, too (...and two!).
:dj-party:

scott fitlin
02-16-2006, 11:26 AM
Your welcome Ti, its really cool, its really fun, and it really sounds good!

And youll really never stop spinning those tracks! Its fun, and incredible and so much music at a reasonable price!

:bouncy:

scott fitlin
02-16-2006, 04:14 PM
ScottyJ, thanks for that info. I am so there!

At least 30% of my listening is to dance tracks and club mixes, so this is a great bit of information. And hey, I've got the Mac G4 PB, too (...and two!).
:dj-party:You get the Rane Serrato Scratch Live, and your in buisiness, youll love it!

You go through Beatport, theres some really driving tunes in there, the new way!

:D

jblnut
02-17-2006, 12:15 PM
Amen to that Ian !

The vinyl thing is a another level of "get it/don't get it" both here and among the audiophile community. Once you've heard a good setup though, it's hard to forget.

I will only add that if you own classic JBLs and you've never played vinyl through them (which is all that was available when most were produced), then you are most definitely missing out.

jblnut




Actually the original audiophile vanished along with vinyl.

I mean hello, how many of you play vinyl?

No CD player on the face of the earth can hold a candle to a fine vinyl replay setup. That is an undisputed fact.

There is so much more information in those grooves that I fail to see how someone can use CD as a yardstick to draw any conclusions about anything.

scott fitlin
02-17-2006, 01:56 PM
Amen to that Ian !

The vinyl thing is a another level of "get it/don't get it" both here and among the audiophile community. Once you've heard a good setup though, it's hard to forget.

I will only add that if you own classic JBLs and you've never played vinyl through them (which is all that was available when most were produced), then you are most definitely missing out.

jblnutI also agree that properly played back vinyl has that something we all crave, once heard correctly! Sadly they no longer really produce quality vinyl with popular music.

Its OK to have an play audiophile pressings from specialty retailers, but what do you do when you want or need to play current and new music? Ill never dispute that proper analog recordings on vinyl are still the best, but, there isnt anymore new and CURRENT analog vinyl records!

The fact that I grew up on vinyl through JBL and Altec is what made me so critical of audio gear, and recordings in the first place! :dont-know

scott fitlin
02-17-2006, 02:48 PM
I agree this is the future... I only hope that there are enough consumers wanting the hi-res stuff so that the industry actually creates and distributes all music in a hi-res format... there will always be a few tweak labels producing hi-res, just as there are today, but it would be a shame if we were software limited due to market demands... or lack there of.


WidgetJust to add to this, at www.beatport.com (http://www.beatport.com), you have the choice of MP3, MP4, or high quality WAV files. The WAV files cost a dollar more to download than the standard MP3, $1.99MP3 -vs- $2.99WAV compared to $12.99 to $14.99 for a 12in vinyl single import.

To my ears, through the Serrato into my Urei through my system, WAV files sound really good! They sound as good, if not better than their CD counterparts.

So, if this is any indication, they are already acknowledging Hi Rez, higher quality digital playback. I mean, if they are willing to give the DJ better quality formats, why not the typical consumer?

I`m thinking, or hoping, that if the industry has found a way to turn music back into a buisiness they can actually make money off of again, they will offer higher quality at higher prices, and you can have it as long as you pay!

:)

jblnut
02-18-2006, 06:48 PM
It's a shame isn't it ? If you want a high quality version of new music you're pretty much out of luck unless it got made on SACD or DVD Audio. With all the hype around ipods, mp3s and downloadable music, the last thing anyone seems to want (except us) is songs that are 1gb each.

I may sound like a vinyl junkie (and I am to some degree) but I realize that the new high-end digital formats certainly have the potential to equal if not surpass the venerable record. It's just a matter of bits and the new formats have added a lot more information to the bitstream.

I'm still purposely avoiding SACD - I don't want to buy my music collection all over again....

jblnut



I also agree that properly played back vinyl has that something we all crave, once heard correctly! Sadly they no longer really produce quality vinyl with popular music.

Its OK to have an play audiophile pressings from specialty retailers, but what do you do when you want or need to play current and new music? Ill never dispute that proper analog recordings on vinyl are still the best, but, there isnt anymore new and CURRENT analog vinyl records!

The fact that I grew up on vinyl through JBL and Altec is what made me so critical of audio gear, and recordings in the first place! :dont-know

scott fitlin
02-18-2006, 07:30 PM
I'm still purposely avoiding SACD - I don't want to buy my music collection all over again....

jblnutI feel you on this!

However, from my point of veiw, as using music as part of my buisiness, and needing to have hot and current as well as new, forward trend setting music, higher rez digital playback is an inevitable fact we are all going to have to face. For the DJ, we now have available to us, downloads in WAV format, that really sound terrific, they kick, the bottom is good. Now, I have to invest in the hardware and software to play this, but, otoh, once you do, the music download is less expensive than the vinyl record! $2.99 for a single track! So, it has its redeeming point to me!

Also, usually, with computers and electronics, as new updates become available, you can purchase and download these as well, instead of buying new hardware!

The fact of the matter is we are not going back to vinyl, and unless your buying specialty vinyl, the quality of most of whats left of the vinyl pressed these days STINKS! As well as availability of new music on vinyl is dwindling!

I have been an avid digital hater, BUT, I heard, and played with the new download WAV files, through the new medium, its good.

If they are making technology available to the dance and DJ markets, the consumer will get it too. I`ve reached a point where I no longer care how I play it, as long as it sounds good!

When there are websites with popular music of all kinds, jazz, rock, C & W, and everything else, if the sonics are good, I can see it working!

briang
02-18-2006, 11:34 PM
I'm still purposely avoiding SACD - I don't want to buy my music collection all over again....

jblnut

I agree. However, there are so few titles out in SACD or 24bit DVD-Audio it almost does not matter.

One lament I have is that I could never find most of my collection in the newer formats due to how few of the recordings are re-released with the higher resolution.

But since most of my music collection was stolen, since I must start over, I'd rather do it in high resolution formats.

JBLnsince1959
02-19-2006, 06:44 AM
Yeah they boost the HF and LF when compressing so "it has more bass must be better!"

:blah:

that's why BOSE sound so "good"

Mr. Widget
02-19-2006, 11:53 PM
I'm still purposely avoiding SACD - I don't want to buy my music collection all over again....Back in the days of analog, people would have spent ungodly sums to get a first generation dupe of a 1/2 track master tape. Hell, people paid $50 just for the UHQR records. Sure they were about as good as vinyl could get, but they were still a far cry from the master... high res digital is essentially a clone of the master tape... I agree that too few are available, but I am happy to spend just a few extra bucks to get them when I find one that seems interesting.


Widget

Rolf
02-20-2006, 12:17 AM
Back in the days of analog, people would have spent ungodly sums to get a first generation dupe of a 1/2 track master tape. Hell, people paid $50 just for the UHQR records. Sure they were about as good as vinyl could get, but they were still a far cry from the master... high res digital is essentially a clone of the master tape... I agree that too few are available, but I am happy to spend just a few extra bucks to get them when I find one that seems interesting.


Widget

I totally agree with you Widget. Among others I can recommend TELARC, MFSL, Ryco Gold CD's. These recordings, digitally re-mastered older records from analogue masters sound much better then the rest of the "crap" you find in stores now days.

Rolf

DRG
02-20-2006, 11:38 AM
Hell, people paid $50 just for the UHQR records.Some of us even bought two copies of those things.