PDA

View Full Version : Tubes and Altec Carmel's - sahweeet



intotubes
01-24-2006, 05:44 PM
Greetings Altec Lansing fanatics.

First let me say I am glad I found this place. I’ve been browsing for a while and really like it here.

For my first post to this great forum I wanted to express the enjoyment I am currently having listening to a recently acquired pair of 60’s(?) vintage Carmels. One has a serial number of 581. Any idea what year these are?
*edit: OK, nevermind, I just read where s/n data is not known due to a fire at the factory(?). Bummer. I'm new to the Altec world so patience is in order. *end edit

I have an H.H.Scott LT-10 tuner feeding a Fisher KX-200 integrated and man, it is a sweet sound to my ears.

I am so jazzed. I picked these things up for a song. The cab’s are a little beat up but the innards are like new. My jaw dropped when I opened the cabinet and saw those shiny green 811’s. I have since done copious research and found that these speakers are a delight to all who own them. I briefly considered parting out but NO WAY. I gave them a listen and am now a firm Altec convert. At least a horn convert. I already had a pair of Cornwalls that I thought were the best thing I had ever heard. Now I own two pairs of classics.

I am considering building a pair of Malibu cabinets and transfer the components. They will match the CW’s better and stand up (taking up less floor space, WAF, etc).

Is it sacrilege? Is it acceptable here to do something like that to a classic? Should I keep ‘em stock for history’s sake? I could keep the empty cabinets I suppose and store them.

Anyway right now I am listening as is and am extremely pleased.

BTW, I have read about the goop in the woofer surrounds running. Is this a real concern? I haven’t pulled the drivers to check yet.



Thanks!

-Mark

Chas
01-25-2006, 06:57 AM
I got a pair of Carmel's back around 1982. The 414Z woofers were in daily service until last year in 8 cu.ft. vented boxes (vertical columns to save space)until I converted over to all JBL last fall. Really nice woofers, and yes, the goop can run. It's an easy fix by simply rotating them every five to ten years 180 degrees.

Really nice woofers, still stand up against modern stuff if loaded properly. Mine had excellent extension down to the high 20's in proper enclosures.

The Altec enclosures used to rattle and shake and boomed at about 40 Hz! They really didn't do justice to the quality of the drivers.

As far as the 806/811B combination, well...it's a matter of taste, I suppose. I would look at 802's, or better yet, a more modern 900 series if you can find a 16 ohm version.

10 Watt Street
01-25-2006, 09:18 AM
There is little info on the 838B Carmel or 843A Malibu in the Library (that I have found). These are the horizontal low-boy and vertical versions of the same system.

There is a pair of Malibu to see here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5856791859

intotubes
01-25-2006, 11:42 AM
Really nice woofers, still stand up against modern stuff if loaded properly. Mine had excellent extension down to the high 20's in proper enclosures.

The Altec enclosures used to rattle and shake and boomed at about 40 Hz! They really didn't do justice to the quality of the drivers.

As far as the 806/811B combination, well...it's a matter of taste, I suppose. I would look at 802's, or better yet, a more modern 900 series if you can find a 16 ohm version.

Mine have 804 drivers on the horns. Isn't the 806 an updated 804?
Thanks for the tip on rotating to keep the goop in check.
What enclosure did you use? Was the horn sealed against the baffle? When you say vented was it just a slot or was it a port? Do you have a sketch or pic?

When they are cranking in the mid 90's db region, they really sound good. Real hard hitting mid bass. I would be interested in the "proper" enclosure though.

Thanks,
-Mark

spkrman57
01-25-2006, 12:32 PM
very similiar though!

Ron

Chas
01-25-2006, 01:08 PM
Mine have 804 drivers on the horns. Isn't the 806 an updated 804?
Thanks for the tip on rotating to keep the goop in check.
What enclosure did you use? Was the horn sealed against the baffle? When you say vented was it just a slot or was it a port? Do you have a sketch or pic?

When they are cranking in the mid 90's db region, they really sound good. Real hard hitting mid bass. I would be interested in the "proper" enclosure though.

Thanks,
-Mark

Hi Mark, I dunno what an 804 is, try a search on the Altec site.

I only installed the woofers and used them below 100 Hz (no horn) in new cabinets with a tuned port using cardboard sonotube, but if I had used the horn, I would have sealed and flush mounted it. If you really like the 811B, you might like the 511B (if you have space) better, I did - but ultimately went entirely JBL.

I don't have a drawing, but I still have the cabinets, but they are now loaded with 2235's. Basically, I sized them as 8 cubic feet net of the woofer volume and then tuned them by cutting down the port length. The port I.D. I used was 5" and they ended up about 6" long. You'll need an oscillator and an AC voltmeter to do it accurately, though.

intotubes
01-25-2006, 02:14 PM
Chas,

So you made a sonotube subwoofer out of them?
I am thinking of either making a Malibu enclosure for them or just try cleaning up the Carmel enclosure. The grill cloth is intact and not tooooo bad, a little water stained on the bottom.
Check this link on the Klipsch forum for pics.
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/672771/ShowPost.aspx
I'm a little stumped by the factory mounting of the horn. It is recessed slightly from the baffle and has a gap of around 2" on either side of it. I don't know if this serves as a port for the low frequencies or what? I think it must act like one. I also like the idea of listening to speakers that were being enjoyed by a hi-fi enthusiast 40 some years ago. Others that have owned these have said they liked the sound. I really don't want to mess too much with what the Altec Lansing engineers created, after all, they are legend.
I would be interested hearing from anyone who has a set of Malibus.

-Mark

Steve Schell
01-25-2006, 07:42 PM
Hi Mark,

The area around the 811 horn mouth does function as the bass reflex port. Several models of the period, including the Malibu, were designed this way.

The goop on many of the Altec woofers of the 1960s and 1970s is prone to running. The material they used is thermoplastic, and really gets runny when it gets hot. It would be a good idea to pull your woofers and have a look. If a big lump of the stuff has collected at the bottom, it needs to be removed or the cone can tear at that point. I once had Malibus like the ones in the auction, and this had happened to all four. Heating the lump with a hair dryer and carefully scooping off the excess (without damaging the accordian surround) will prevent this tearing from happening.

The 804 driver was the first downsized (i.e. smaller than an 802) small format driver. I have seen one apart, and its magnet is really tiny. This was during a period when Altec was unwisely cost reducing its products; the backlash against the 605 Duplex, which was a cheapened 604, ultimately cost Altec their domination of the monitor business. Your 804s may be fine, I've never had any experience with them. They were replaced after a time with the 806, which has a larger magnet. If you come across some of these, they might provide an upgrade over the 804s.

Most of all, enjoy your speakers- they are really good performers, especially in comparison to almost all modern consumer level stuff. They are the lineal descendants of the Lansing Iconic of 1937, so their breeding is impeccable.

Chas
01-26-2006, 06:57 AM
Chas,

So you made a sonotube subwoofer out of them?
I am thinking of either making a Malibu enclosure for them or just try cleaning up the Carmel enclosure. The grill cloth is intact and not tooooo bad, a little water stained on the bottom.
Check this link on the Klipsch forum for pics.
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/672771/ShowPost.aspx
I'm a little stumped by the factory mounting of the horn. It is recessed slightly from the baffle and has a gap of around 2" on either side of it. I don't know if this serves as a port for the low frequencies or what? I think it must act like one. I also like the idea of listening to speakers that were being enjoyed by a hi-fi enthusiast 40 some years ago. Others that have owned these have said they liked the sound. I really don't want to mess too much with what the Altec Lansing engineers created, after all, they are legend.
I would be interested hearing from anyone who has a set of Malibus.

-Mark

Mark, Steve is correct (of course, when it comes to Altecs!) about the port and the offset horn mounting. The sonotubes in mine were for front baffle ports only, my cabinets are plywood, sorry if I confused you.

As Steve also suggests, leave them as-is and enjoy them. My point was only that the woofers in a tuned vented box are capable of excellent performance in modern day terms with very deep low frequency extension, given their age. It is a tribute to their heritage and design lineage.

Tom Brennan
01-27-2006, 09:23 PM
According to the old Sound practices info which was gathered by a very astute Altechie the 804 and 806 are the same driver, just a new number.

I have a pair of Heath As-21s which are the same speaker as the Carmel mechanically and in layout but a different style of cabinet. I've thought of doing the normal Altec mods, you know stiffening the boxes and damping the horns but the things sound so good I decided to just leave them alone. If it ain't broke and all that.

intotubes
01-29-2006, 08:23 PM
I finally was able to stop listening to these long enough to take one apart and do some maintenance. It was a job, I only got one done. The other will have to wait until next weekend. I removed the woofers and took pics of the goop, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be. Living in a dry climate may have helped. I rotated them 180 degrees but had to rewire them to accomodate the new position of the drivers. I used the same color (green and black) wire and twisted it. I used 16 ga, I think the original was 18. No reason other than the store didn't have 18. I vacuumed 40 years of dust off the woofer cones. I took the horn out -what a beast, I hadn't had a good look at it since I bought these - cleaned the dust off and remounted. There is a lot of talk of bad ringing in these horns. When it is out of the enclosure it does ring like a bell. With it secured with the 1/4-20's on the bottom and the 10-32 on the top it is pretty dead. I rapped it with a screwdrver handle and it made a dull thud. Yeah, pretty technical test but I wanted to keep it simple :p . I tightened the Altec badge so it would stay horizontal, vacuumed the grill and oiled the cabinets. Not bad, not bad at all. I think I can live with these as is.
I'm really glad I found this sight. I now know I got a VERY nice set of vintage speakers.
I will now use up some band width and post some pics of the drivers if that's OK.
-Mark

intotubes
01-30-2006, 05:02 PM
OK, I posted some pics to an album. One shows an example of the goop running on a 414Z woofer. Others show the simple construction of the enclosures.

Can new grill cloth be had?