Fried D130-f Help [Archive] - Lansing Heritage Forums

tcm

01-21-2006, 02:35 PM

Hi Everybody;
First I'd like to start off telling you what a great resource you have created. I've surfed through here many times for both referance and enjoyment:applaud: .

Now my problem. I have a D130-f that seems to need reconing every month or two:banghead: . The problem is always voice coil rub. The reconing is done by a local tech that has been both a JBL Pro-Audio dealer and service rep for over 30 years. He comes highly recomended and I don't think that he is the problem.

I use the speaker for bass guitar. I drive it with an older Fender Showman (85 watts RMS via vaccum tube). The speaker is mounted in a Fender tone ring cabinet (double baffle ported design).

Could my problem be from the voice coil bottoming out due to excess cone excursion? If that's the case would changing my cabinet to an infinite baffle decrease cone excursion enough to solve my problem? One reason I lean in this direction is that the same amp also took out an Altec 421-A :blink: that was mounted in a B15 cabinet (Thiele aligned port). That's another thread but it makes me wonder if a tighter cabinet would solve my dilema?
OR
Could the problem be that I'm getting the voice coil a little on the toasty side and it is warping? in which case adding another cabinet, or using a 2X15 cabinet in order to split the load?
Would anyone recomend upgrading to a D140-F or a E or K series? Would this significantly effect my sound and volume? In my limited understanding, isn't the reason I can get a workable stage volume from this rig because the D130-f is specifically engineered for this type of set up? Wouldn't an E or K series require more power to get the same volume? Wouldn't a D140-F have more mids? I Really like the sound of this set up if only it wouldn't blow:( .

Please be gentle with me.... I'm well aware that I'm a happy moron:p .
Thanks for reading.
Tim

JBLROCKS

01-21-2006, 03:02 PM

johnaec

01-21-2006, 04:19 PM

tcm

01-22-2006, 01:48 PM

Sounds like it would be a good time to talk to the guy doing the work....Get his opinion on what is happening. Without seeing the cone or coil it could be hard to say what is happening.

Just my 2 cents;)

Thanks JBLRocks.... That's exactly what I plan on doing.... but it happened on a gig this weekend and I won't have a chance to talk w/ him until tomorrow or the next day:) .

Tim

tcm

01-22-2006, 02:03 PM

The D130F is really a guitar speaker, and using it for bass will really heat up the voice coil if you start pushing it. You definitely want a K140 or E140. While the efficiency rating on paper may be less than that of the D130F, that's because JBL rates the efficieny in different frequency bands, depending on the speaker's designed use. I guarantee both the K140 and E140 will put out substantially more volume than the D130F when used for bass, unless all you play are really high notes.

John, (also a bass player)

Thanks John.... yeah I'm already sniffin' around on Ebay for a E or K140... the thing is... that for the bands/venues that I use this set up for, I really love the sound :bouncy: so I think I may have my tech do the forensics so we know why she's cooked. I do like to use my entire neck, but in reality 80% of the work I do I get payed to play down low and in the groove... bass player huh... then you know my pain....I'll be rollin around an SVT rig for small to medium venues till this ones fixed.... aaarrrggghh... I'm gettin' to old for this:blink: :) ;) .
Thanks
Tim

toddalin

01-22-2006, 04:30 PM

Thanks John.... yeah I'm already sniffin' around on Ebay for a E or K140... the thing is... that for the bands/venues that I use this set up for, I really love the sound :bouncy: so I think I may have my tech do the forensics so we know why she's cooked. I do like to use my entire neck, but in reality 80% of the work I do I get payed to play down low and in the groove... bass player huh... then you know my pain....I'll be rollin around an SVT rig for small to medium venues till this ones fixed.... aaarrrggghh... I'm gettin' to old for this:blink: :) ;) .
Thanks
Tim

If you want to be a little different, maybe consider using a W15GTI. In my testing, I found that it kicks butt on the 2235 in my cabinet down at low E (40 Hz). It can also be used in a smaller cabnet. With 1.6" of cone travel, an 800 watt RMS rating and a 5,000 watt peak, it can probably take your abuse.;)
See my thread for the 2235 vs W15GTI in the DYI forum for test results. As I recall, it was on the order of 7 dB louder (relative to 160 Hz) at 35 Hz. You can pick them up new on ePay.

tcm

01-22-2006, 07:07 PM

If you want to be a little different, maybe consider using a W15GTI. In my testing, I found that it kicks butt on the 2235 in my cabinet down at low E (40 Hz). It can also be used in a smaller cabnet. With 1.6" of cone travel, an 800 watt RMS rating and a 5,000 watt peak, it can probably take your abuse.;)
See my thread for the 2235 vs W15GTI in the DYI forum for test results. As I recall, it was on the order of 7 dB louder (relative to 160 Hz) at 35 Hz. You can pick them up new on ePay.

Thanks Tod, but I'm not overly convinced that my 85 watt showman would even move the cone on such a thumper:) .
Tim

Tom Loizeaux

01-22-2006, 07:12 PM

Sure, have the voice coil checked to see why it failed, but the D130 was not designed for electric bass. It will hold up in low powered (50-85 watt) amps when used for guitar but, being so efficient, will get kicked even by those amps. A D140F was meant for electric bass amplificatuion in that single Showman cabinet. Though it sounds good, the surround is very flexible and won't take a lot of power.
For electric bass use at least a K140! Its a great sounding speaker, will have a voice similar to the D140F, and will be a little stronger when pushed.
An E140 is also good, and will take even more power, but some feel it needs a slightly larger cabinet to get the deep thump of the K140.
Hope this helps.

Tom
(pm me if you want an E140)

boputnam

01-22-2006, 07:35 PM

(excerpted from an email of some years ago, exploring the D, E and K series...)

The D series goes way way back, to the late 40's early fifties. They changed very little over the years aside from a slightly wider gap in some models later in their life. The terminals did change as well. They used to be a threaded shaft with a piece that would thread down and pinch the wire in place. Later, we went to the push terminal.

The initial 12 inch device that we used for guitar applications was the D131. Recently, I ran into an unrelated question regarding another speaker from the same era, and due to our long history and several "ownership teams" over the 50 plus years of our history I had exhausted all of the current JBL resources and had to seek out the data elsewhere. I love the web for such things but of course you have to be careful because there is a lot of wrong information out there. I got very lucky and found a gentleman who worked here back in those days. He happened to be the "quality" guy back in those days. His name is Brian Gerst.

Brian explained to me that the D131's were failing in some unexpected ways in guitar applications. One little 12 watt solid state guitar amp was burning them with regularity. It turned out to be the first identified instance of "DC Burn" or a burn due to hard clipping. This was one of the first subjects on our old tech notes (they were called something different back then).

The second failure type was rubbing coils in many rear loaded guitar boxes. There was also some compliance deterioration due to exposure to the sun (guitar amps are transported more that other applications, I would assume). The rub was coming from either a slightly warped frame or baffle. Some times they would be fastened down with 8 nuts and screws. Any anomaly in frames or baffles would mis align the coil and cause the rub. They widened the gap for this problem and they applies a viscous substance to the compliance, at the time, only referred to as "goop". This took care of the both problems. This device became the D120F.

The K series actually came next. The best I can tell, they "began" in the middle seventies. It appears that to me that it was mostly a marketing endeavor that was actually repackaged D series with black paint. There were some differences in the cone kits but today the D, K an E series share repair kits. If you compare a D series to the corresponding K series with contemporary kits installed, they will sound the same. So if you are seeking that "vintage" sound, the K series is the "bargain" product because they have not become collectable. The plane D series would be a little more and the D series with the F (stood for Fender) are the most expensive. Interesting that three products that would function identically would be so different in price on the market. Collectors are funny people!

In the late seventies the rich cobalt that was required to build the Alnico V (aluminum, nickel and cobalt) became difficult if not impossible to obtain due to the political climate in an African nation (where Edi Amin was in power). We had to switch materials for our magnets. This impacted the larger low frequency devices first but eventually was carried over to all of our speaker elements. Primarily, we switched to Ferrite magnets. This is where the E series comes into the picture.

With ferrite you can achieve higher power handling with a similar weight device. This is the beginning of the end for our musical instrument lines of speakers. Through the 80's and 90's the power handling of our devices went up and up and up. Currently some of our best woofers have a power rating of 600 watts of pink noise, which equates out to 1200 watts continuous program. One of our 18's is rated at 800 pink/1600 continuos. The current highest level devices that we produce are made from Neodymium, about 1/3 the weight at the same high power specs. These pots are used in the Vertec touring gear.

I currently use one 2226H (woofer from the SR series) coupled with a 70's vintage Fender tube amp called the PS 300. It is the second highest power tube amp for guitar ever produced; 300 watts RMS./660 peak at 8 ohms. I can safely drive one of these with that amp (and it works well for bass and certain guitar applications). Unfortunately, there are not too many guitar amps capable of producing enough power to avoid burning the voice coils from the clipped signal.

The E series was discontinued in the spring of last year. We do not currently build a musical instrument specific line of speakers (alas).

This was fun! Thank you for the question.

edgewound

01-22-2006, 07:45 PM

Hi tcm,

I'll agree with rest about the D130F not being designed a bass guitar speaker, but it sure sounds good, doesn't it?....before it blows, that is. The E130 recone kit will take 300 watts pink noise, freqeuncy range something like 50-6KHz....hows the magnet strength of your D130F motor? Do you play a 4,5 or 6 string bass? It's safest to use that speaker and/ or a D,K,E140 in a sealed enclosure when using it for bass guitar. The low E-string is about 41Hz and a low B-string is about 31Hz, so it's most definite that your unloading that D/E130 and driving the voice coil out of the gap.

Sounds like you're playing rather small combo gigs with your bass rig. An overstuffed sealed enclosure 3-4 cu ft will probably cure the problem. BTW....Eminence has come out with a Neo-magnet lightweight 10" with an aluminum cone sort of like they used to do for Hartke. 4x10" with these would sound killer for bass with no tweeter, and be pretty light weight.

johnaec

01-22-2006, 08:27 PM

.... yeah I'm already sniffin' around on Ebay for a E or K140... the thing is... that for the bands/venues that I use this set up for, I really love the sound...The sound won't be that much different, especially with the K140. I think you'd find you actually liked the sound of the K140 better - it's definitely got the low end of the D130 beat, but still has similar highs, due in part to the aluminum dust dome.

I'll tell you what - I've got a K140 here in mint shape - it's even got a factory E140 recone kit in it, (the current spec), so it's in perfect operating condition. I'll let it got for $125 plus shipping, (from CA), if you're interested. You may find a lower price on eBay, but it'd be hard to find a K140 in much better shape...

John

edgewound

01-22-2006, 08:39 PM

The sound won't be that much different, especially with the K140. I think you'd find you actually liked the sound of the K140 better - it's definitely got the low end of the D130 beat, but still has similar highs, due in part to the aluminum dust dome.

I'm gonna risk sounding like the arrogant, SOB know-it-all that some members perceive me to be.

The D/K/E 130 vs. D/K/E 140 are totally different cones and voice coils so they sound totally different, with all due respect. The 130's freq range is 50Hz-6000Hz, the 140's is 40-2500Hz. The 130 reaches more than an octave higher, and is 5db more sensitive. I'd say that's different. I'm braced for the fallout....

johnaec

01-22-2006, 08:47 PM

The 130's freq range is 50Hz-6000Hz, the 140's is 40-2500Hz. The 130 reaches more than an octave higher, and is 5db more sensitive.The thing is, with bass, there are very few harmonics above 2500 hz, and I was also under the impression JBL rated their LF speakers' efficiency in a lower band - they definitely say as much on their pro series spec sheets. I still bet that for a given wattage, the K140 will pretty much equal the D130 from 40-50 hz.

John

edgewound

01-22-2006, 09:13 PM

The thing is, with bass, there are very few harmonics above 2500 hz, and I was also under the impression JBL rated their LF speakers' efficiency in a lower band - they definitely say as much on their pro series spec sheets. I still bet that for a given wattage, the K140 will pretty much equal the D130 from 40-50 hz.

John

Hi John,

The thing is... with bass guitar...the harmonics of the instrument and amp don't stop at 2500Hz. You've got to consider the type of strings....most players use round wound thesedays....the type of pickups, passive or active with EQ , the wood or composite of the body/neck, the type of amp...slap and pop technique, fingers, pick....list list goes on. Most current Bass guitar amp systems use a tweeter to accentuate the highs.

tcm

01-22-2006, 09:41 PM

Thanks for all the help.

Yeah that speaker does sound great....especially right before it goes south (LOL). 'Taint no old wives tail... On gigs where it's gone poof, people have even comented to that effect, And I'd be thinking 'cool' the cones startin' to loosen up and then:wtf: .
You're right I use this set up specifically for 100 seaters and under, or low stage volume larger venues into FOH. I just love it for those applications. Only 4 string for this amp... I do play 5str, but into modern full range gear.
Yeah.... You guys have sold me...I'm still going have my tech do a post mortum on my D130, but I think the outcome will be to upgrade to a K140...
I think for the time being I may stick w/ my ported enclosure...:blink: I think...hmmm....
Thanks'
Tim :D

edgewound

01-22-2006, 09:47 PM

Tom Loizeaux

01-23-2006, 05:54 AM

I use my K140s in Sunn cabinets. I tuned these cabinets to around 40Hz, so I'm not putting signals through them below the tuned frequency. I actually haven't tried playing bass through sealed 15" cabinets because I've always worked for a flat response down to 40Hz. I feel there's something missing when the volume of the fundamental drops off as the player moves down toward open E.
A closed cabinet with a pair of 15s and a graphic EQ might start to give you that deep low end...?
Though I like really deep electric bass tone, I added a 5" upper-mid driver to one of my K140 cabinets and it adds a touch of edge and definition. If you like the tone character of the D130, you might really like the K or E145. Its been said that its "like a 130 on steriods".
Keep us posted.

Tom

tcm

01-23-2006, 07:39 AM

Don't forget...that sealed enclosure will reach deeper at the expense of some low bass efficiency....and the excursion will be nil....and still keep your tone. I played with a guy that had this setup....P-Bass, 100watt tube amp... never blew a speaker

OK.... now you have my poor little head spinnin'....:blink: I understand that I have to either reduce excursion or use something with more cone travel, but if I change to a sealed encclosure, how will I keep my tone (I love my curremt tone)....? Isn't the enclosure half of my tone? :)
You're absolutely right in the discussion about contemporary Bass tones, slapping and the need for a rich harmonic content and glassy high end, tweeters etc...:) , but in the context that I use this amp, I use dirty, old flatwound strings on a 45 year old Pbass with a some treble dialed in on the Showman. Think of my sound as a a bass version of a contemporary kick drum, w/ the beater attack :bouncy: .... the dust cap is key.... I think any more high end would be over the top... kinda' modern-retro.... (When I slap I use my 5str into a modern solid state amp and full range caninet....) this set up is for a specific tone...and I already get it....I just need to get it w/out blowing speakers:D . Ok enough said on that.... or you guy's will send my boney butt packin' to the Fender Forum:o:.
Thanks again
Tim

edgewound

01-23-2006, 09:39 AM

OK.... now you have my poor little head spinnin'....:blink: I understand that I have to either reduce excursion or use something with more cone travel, but if I change to a sealed encclosure, how will I keep my tone (I love my curremt tone)....? Isn't the enclosure half of my tone? :)
You're absolutely right in the discussion about contemporary Bass tones, slapping and the need for a rich harmonic content and glassy high end, tweeters etc...:) , but in the context that I use this amp, I use dirty, old flatwound strings on a 45 year old Pbass with a some treble dialed in on the Showman. Think of my sound as a a bass version of a contemporary kick drum, w/ the beater attack :bouncy: .... the dust cap is key.... I think any more high end would be over the top... kinda' modern-retro.... (When I slap I use my 5str into a modern solid state amp and full range caninet....) this set up is for a specific tone...and I already get it....I just need to get it w/out blowing speakers:D . Ok enough said on that.... or you guy's will send my boney butt packin' to the Fender Forum:o:.
Thanks again
Tim

I'd say the overall tonal character of your current setup is due the combination of that high tactile sensitivity of the D130 and the harmonics it reproduces. The enclosure is making the bass frequencies below about 80 Hz.
Once the cone unloads below the tuning frequency of the tone ring...which I believe was for guitar...all hell breaks loose and you break the speaker. With a sealed box you might have to tweak a little low EQ to compensate. The bass roll off of the sealed enclosure is sooner and more gradual than a tuned port alignment, but goes quite a bit deeper with out the extreme excursion. When the port unloads on a tuned box, the bass drops at 24dB/octave below the tuning frequency....basically fluttering in desperation and making no bass.

Another option that might be worth a try is to put a hi pass capacitor in your current rig to limit extreme low freqs. I'd go with the overstuffed sealed box, or with a compact sealed 4x10" with aluminum cones.

toddalin

01-23-2006, 09:54 AM

Thanks Tod, but I'm not overly convinced that my 85 watt showman would even move the cone on such a thumper:) .
Tim

I don't know where you are located but if you get to the Orange County CA area, you are welcome to try your bass through my W15GTI as well as my 2235s.

I would think that a killer rig could included a W15GTI wired for 12 ohms in parallel with 16 ohm D140F/130F for a 7 ohm load.

Stand back!

edgewound

01-23-2006, 10:00 AM

I don't know where you are located but if you get to the Orange County CA area, you are welcome to try your bass through my W15GTI as well as my 2235s.

I would think that a killer rig could included a W15GTI wired for 12 ohms in parallel with 16 ohm D140F/130F for a 7 ohm load.

Stand back!

That'd be fun:p.....sorta like driving a school bus in a Formula One race.

Although with the right amp...and a five string bass I bet the W15GTI would make a kinda cool bass guitar subwoofer.

Sorry for the sarcastic remark...but that's something you just wouldn't want to do, Todd. It would be disastrous to your 2235's

tcm

01-23-2006, 10:13 AM

I'd say the overall tonal character of your current setup is due the combination of that high tactile sensitivity of the D130 and the harmonics it reproduces. The enclosure is making the bass frequencies below about 80 Hz.
Once the cone unloads below the tuning frequency of the tone ring...which I believe was for guitar...all hell breaks loose and you break the speaker. With a sealed box you might have to tweak a little low EQ to compensate. The bass roll off of the sealed enclosure is sooner and more gradual than a tuned port alignment, but goes quite a bit deeper with out the extreme excursion. When the port unloads on a tuned box, the bass drops at 24dB/octave below the tuning frequency....basically fluttering in desperation and making no bass.

Another option that might be worth a try is to put a hi pass capacitor in your current rig to limit extreme low freqs. I'd go with the overstuffed sealed box, or with a compact sealed 4x10" with aluminum cones.

OK I see what you're saying... but I only want to change one variable at a time.... So would you think that my D130 would be safe in a sealed stuffed enclosure?
RE: the aluminium 4X10.... I already have a killer conemporary set up... tahts not the sound I'm after for this set up... although a high pass is an interesting thought.
Thanks
Tim

tcm

01-23-2006, 10:18 AM

[QUOTE=edgewound]That'd be fun:p.....sorta like driving a school bus in a Formula One race.
:applaud: :cheers: :rockon2:

edgewound

01-23-2006, 10:29 AM

OK I see what you're saying... but I only want to change one variable at a time.... So would you think that my D130 would be safe in a sealed stuffed enclosure?
Thanks
Tim

Yes....and if it doesn't...provided it was reconed properly and all bits of old voice coil wire and debris were removed from the gap, and mounted true...I'll recone it for you for free for the cost of bad advice, and will have learned more in the process.

Steve Schell

01-23-2006, 11:25 AM

The most likely cause of the repeated failures of your D130F is that it is simply being driven too hard in your use of it for bass guitar. One possibility though is that the magnetic structure has been partially demagnetized from the high inputs to the voice coil of past use, weakening the magnetic strength in the voice coil gap. When this happens the efficiency of the speaker drops, requiring more input to play at the same level and continuing the demagnetizing process. The voice coil has to dissipate an excessive amount of power under these conditions, which can cause it to heat up, warp and begin rubbing in the gap. Jim Dickinson has described this phenomenon with VOTT drivers in theatre use, where older drivers begin to fail repeatedly due to the weakened magnets.

If you have the D130F fixed again, try to find a technician who can check the gap flux density and recharge the magnet is it measures weaker than its specification for flux density.

tcm

01-23-2006, 11:31 AM

OK, My tech's opinion:
No need for forensics, he remembered the other cones died from coil excursions.
His recomendation:
Get a E or K 140, and put an infinite baffle on my cabinet, and stuff the cabinet.
He say the loss in efficiency will only be about -3db. He says my tone although not the same will be similar. and I should be able to tweak it:) . and it should be fairly bullet proof.
Or in other words.... just do it all and be done with it..
Later
tim

edgewound

01-23-2006, 11:31 AM

Here's a link to JBL for recommended enclosures. Line number 4 has a recommedation for a tuned box for E130 tuned to 40Hz for bass guitar....good reading for what to do and not to do.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/manuals/enclgde.pdf

edgewound

01-23-2006, 11:38 AM

OK, My tech's opinion:
No need for forensics, he remembered the other cones died from coil excursions.:hmm:
His recomendation:
Get a E or K 140, and put an infinite baffle on my cabinet, and stuff the cabinet.
He say the loss in efficiency will only be about -3db. He says my tone although not the same will be similar. and I should be able to tweak it:) . and it should be fairly bullet proof.
Or in other words.... just do it all and be done with it..
Later
tim

Well....ok...hope it works out for you. Keep us posted.

tcm

01-23-2006, 02:46 PM

After a couple of PM's and a phone call ... and all the posts... I just want to thank you guys.... you're the best.... everyone has been a big help :applaud: :applaud: will keep you informed...
later
Tim

Harvey Gerst

06-07-2006, 07:37 PM

(excerpted from an email of some years ago, exploring the D, E and K series...)

TRecently, I ran into an unrelated question regarding another speaker from the same era, and due to our long history and several "ownership teams" over the 50 plus years of our history I had exhausted all of the current JBL resources and had to seek out the data elsewhere. I love the web for such things but of course you have to be careful because there is a lot of wrong information out there. I got very lucky and found a gentleman who worked here back in those days. He happened to be the "quality" guy back in those days. His name is Brian Gerst.
Geez, I just noticed this. So now, I'm living "The Life Of Brian"? How did that happen?
It's Harvey, not Brian. :banghead:

4313B

06-08-2006, 04:34 AM

How did that happen?I think I know who sent that email from JBL but I could be wrong. I get the feeling that JBL History isn't really taught at JBL so the "new people" often get things wrong. In fact, I know they rely alot on this site for their information and since it is currently having problems...

Tom Loizeaux

06-08-2006, 05:05 AM

Another suggestion to reduce, or eliminate the failures you've been having with your D130 is to add another! Two drivers, working together, will reduce the cone excursion of each driver for the same SPL. You also get a small dB gain in the low end when they are placed close together. You could even make the second driver a K or E140 and get "the best of both worlds". You will have an effiency difference between the two ... easily solveable by adding a second power amp.
I use a pair of 15s as a minium for amplifying electric bass and add a second pair of 15s, with another power amp, when I play outside or in a larger venue.
One 15, especially a D130, really isn't up to the task unles you're recording with a miked cabinet or playing with an acoustic group.
just my $.02

Tom

Harvey Gerst

06-08-2006, 07:57 AM

I think I know who sent that email from JBL but I could be wrong. I get the feeling that JBL History isn't really taught at JBL so the "new people" often get things wrong. In fact, I know they rely alot on this site for their information and since it is currently having problems...
Well, johhny Edwards is still alive, George Augspurger is still alive, I'm still alive, and there must be some others. Why the hell don't they ask us about JBL's history? We lived it.

I guess it's true that "History is written by the victors". It just seems a shame that the "heritage" they proclaim so loudly will be lost to future generations.