JBL 4343 rebuild and configuration project

[Fangio]

This thread is dedicated to the respectful rebuild and configuration of two JBL 4343 Four-Way Studio Monitors from the scratch, in different evolution steps. Their startup could be just as subwoofer cabs, they will become 2-ways by adding horns and crossovers, and so on – 3-ways by adding UHF drivers, and end up as 4-ways again, once the rare midranges pop up. The steps may vary from this roadmap, depending on the components that come across my way. A way to go from the start, or a follow-up action could be even to improve them very carefully to 4344s using original components within the JBL specifications, like some others have done it before. Due to the rarity of these monitors and the increasing value of their components on the market (which makes them harder affordable within a reasonable budget), this attempt is declared as longtime project. The goal is to get to know all aspects of a full restoration project, with existing 4-way cabinets as basis that leave all options open.

Please don't expect news every day, week or month. Searching before asking, and try not to ask all questions again that have been discussed at this forum before is obligatory from my side. Comments on all aspects, questions, technological help or hints to find missing parts are most welcome.

[Fangio]

I bought this pair of empty cabinets on ebay in january 2006, for 170€. This is what i have, and its not much:

- utility cabinets in light grey, obviously.
Condition is ok over all, and they have black (and removable) baffles. I have to admit that i prefer that (blue is definitive not my favorite color :duck: ) They would benefit from some walnut re-veneering though, a job that could be done any time. My advantage is that i would not need to refurbish old veneer, and could apply a grain of my choice. (A great example is what Rolf did here: http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8777)

- grilles in black, fortunately.
They are almost perfect, no holes tears etc, not faded, plain black. Looking at them from the inner side, they are built impressively complex, and worth the money alone. No call for action, except to find some badges again (hard enough).

- 2308 lenses.
No call for action.

- all screws for the woofers, and midranges.

What i don't have: original 2121, 2231, 2307, 2405, 2420 drivers, 3143 crossovers. And i know these are not to find over night.

[Fangio]

I had several pair of these duplicated from my originals. I had them made without serial #'s. Anyone interested can pm me.:bouncy:
Hey Dave, thank you for your offer. Your foilcals look fantastic. I've read a bit about their reproduction in these threads:
http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbul...read.php?t=2373
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4543&page=2

You'll get a pm.
Something to my background, i'm a prepress pro, since the 80s. Although its easy to ask others if they have some foilcals left: printing in ANY way is something that i'm more skilled in, and it will be a nice challenge to see if i can't do that too, with the ole G4 at home and some Adobe stuff. :p


The good news is that you can make these "upgraded" 4343s by putting in 2235H woofers, 2122H mids, 2421 compression drivers and 2405 slots. With building or slightly modifying a 3143 crossover, you'll have some "killer" studio monitors. You should consider bi-amping these.

Keep us posted!

Tom
Tom, thanks a lot, i know. When i see the market for the original 4343 alnico assembly, i feel they are a bit overpriced nowadays. So this is a main decision before i start hunting drivers, and i'm still going through the pros and contras in older threads. I guess it could turn out like you suggest, but additional opinions are welcome. In fact, these cabs used to be 4343B's until last year, so they were loaded with xxxxH (ferrit) drivers before, right?


Congratulations on your nice find and welcome to my addiction. An original 3143 crossover would probably be the hardest thing to find. But if you're interested in upgrading the drivers to 4344 spec, as suggested by Tom Loizeaux above, you'll want to make yourself some upgraded crossovers also. Much has been written about this in the ongoing "4343 to 4344 Upgrade" thread.

porschedpm, thanks too. Great, so many owners/experts here :D I regret that i didn't bid consequently on the original 3143 crossovers from the same guy, to be honest, i thought 120€ could be enough. They ended at 204, though. Next time i'm better prepared, they are indeed extremely rare. Is that a common value in the US, too? I will consider having them rebuild also, know a collector in Bremen who offered me that.. probably more have done that here too.

[frank23]

good luck rebuilding the 4343's. It is still very sad [especially for Fangio] that these speakers of which Fangio bought the cabinets were still complete in december 2005 in Ebay auction 7568749119 and that the buyer butchered them, leaving the parts to be rebuilt by those who care, but only with lots and lots of effort. Such a waste!

below a picture of the actual speaker of which the cabinets are now owned by Fangio. They sold for 1.310 euro...

Fangio, why don't you send the buyer of the crossovers from this speaker a message asking them for how much he'd sell them back to you? He bought them for 204 euro in auction 7577458631 on ebay.

[Rolf]

With regards to the people that originally built the 4343 you are in your full right to use whatever components you choose. Have I got your post questions wrong?

You say that you perfer the black baffles, and I uderstand you mean the front grills. That's good.

The thread you refer to, about my kind of way to veneer the speakers I can highly recommend. If you want any more info, pm me.

As Tom stated, the 2235H is a great improvment. The differnce from the 2121H (in my 4343's) to the 2122H, as Tom reccommend, I am not sure. Ask them who has heard both the difference. Same goes with difference from 2420 to 2421. The 2405 is the same, and with improovment of the network things should "Rock ". Of corce you MUST be-amp. That is what really makes things sound better.

If I understand you right, you do not have a nerwork. Ask Guido to make some for you. Soon I will do the same.

At the end I say that I am not a very "tecknical guy", just use my ears and locical know-how. Hope my answer help you.

Rolf

[Fangio]

With regards to the people that originally built the 4343 you are in your full right to use whatever components you choose. Have I got your post questions wrong?
No.
As you and Tom said some drivers are generally regarded as an improvement, i.e 2235Hs to 2231Hs. OTOH the difference from 2121H to 2122H seems to be more controversial.

You say that you perfer the black baffles, and I uderstand you mean the front grills.
I meant the utility cabs have both in black. Combined with walnut that would (will) make a perfect combination to me.

The thread you refer to, about my kind of way to veneer the speakers I can highly recommend. If you want any more info, pm me.
Thanks. I'm looking around for a source of the kits described in this thread.

If I understand you right, you do not have a nerwork. Ask Guido to make some for you. Soon I will do the same.

At the end I say that I am not a very "tecknical guy", just use my ears and locical know-how. Hope my answer help you.

Rolf
Yes it did. :) To get the woofers and networks has priority 1.

Just to make that clear i'm not in a hurry at all. My intention for near future is to use the cabs as experimental playground, for mounting and checking out several drivers that may come along. Hearing them as 4343s again is kind of a long-term objective.

[Rolf]

I will follow your posting as the progress moves on. Good luck!


Rolf

[4313B]

OTOH the difference from 2121H to 2122H seems to be more controversial.There is nothing controversial about it. We've discussed this before. The 2122H is definitely superior to the 2121H. The 2121H had breakup issues that were fixed with the 2122H. The 2123H is the best of the bunch but it isn't a bolt-in in a 4343 or 4344/4345 and it doesn't go as low as the 2122H due to it's more powerful motor. The biggest issue with the 2122H might be it's short coil which could be a problem in high power applications where a suitable high pass filter isn't used. I've personally never had a problem with it because I've never driven it that hard. With the stock 4344/4345 network it isn't an issue at all.

Think about it for a nanosecond or two... would G.T. have bothered with the 2122H in the 4345 if the 2121H was all that? I don't THINK so!

If you have 4343's and you like them as is then you're done and you can sit back and enjoy them. If you have 4343's and you want to try the 4344 components and networks you have that option and it's a nice option to have. It's no different in concept than an L250 to 250Ti upgrade. Some people like the L250 as is and will never upgrade and that's fine.

Has anyone bothered trying the 4344 MK II upgrade?

Note that the 4345 used the 2421B in early production runs.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I key issue for you at this stage will be to either do a complete restoration to 4343B spec or opt for the 4344 spec. Only you can make that decision.

The 4344 is a better loudspeaker and if you take that course there are a number of embelishments to consider depending on your budget and how far you want to go.The 4343B also has a certain historical significance.

Regards either a number of us have been there and done that and hence its not the not quite the kind pioneering exercise as might be suggested.

I am sure you will enjoy the journey and as you say take your time. The anatomy of this system certainly takes some appreciation for a first timer.

Ian:)

[Uncle Paul]

Has anyone bothered trying the 4344 MK II upgrade?

Has anybody in the Forum listened to the MK II? I wonder how it would compare to the previous generation? I've read where it was supposedly voiced for Japaneese music.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Someone is Australia has a pair and posted sometime ago about the sound. He changed out the woofers and put in 2235H's.

I imagine the dusted diaphragms are nice.;)

As I recall it was bass shy. Surprise surprise. Easily fixed with a bit a low end boost. If I had my time again I would recone the 2231's as 2234 and boost the low end or stack a second 2234 for quassi 4445-:D

[Fangio]

I key issue for you at this stage will be to either do a complete restoration to 4343B spec or opt for the 4344 spec. Only you can make that decision.

The 4344 is a better loudspeaker and if you take that course there are a number of embelishments to consider depending on your budget and how far you want to go.The 4343B also has a certain historical significance.
...
Ian:)

Now we are talking. :)
Yeah this decision has to be made: straight restoration back to classic 4343Bs again? Or wolfs in sheep's clothing: old classic cabinets and baffles with upgraded, better content, kinda hotrodding within JBL specs. I do tend to the second choice, and to say it with Frodo's words: „...but i don't know the exact way...“

Some thoughts: the newer drivers maybe show up more often on 3-2-1. And as i learned from local PA pros too, many drivers could be reconed to the newer specs, i.e.: 2215, 2231H, (even E140s) could be reconed as 2235Hs. That exceeds the field to search. Even E110s could be reconed as 2123s(?), i'm watching a pair right now. OTOH, the list of arguments to stay within the 4343 specs is short: originality, or are there more? JBL had their reasons to improve these speakers.

I hoped very much when buying these, the owners of the classic four-way JBLs at LH could be attracted by a thread like this, to share their immense knowledge and let more old bad boys growing to new glance, than their own, ready ones. This could be fun also, huh? Sure, obviously i would benefit a bit.. :coolness: just correct me where i go wrong. Giskard, Ian, your help is much appreciated.

Giskard, now i have to learn about 4344/4344 MKII and 4345 as well. And in opposite to most of you, i haven't heard them all. Promised, a bit of this weekend is dedicated to the upgrade thread, that porschedpm suggested.
F.

[Earl K]

Some thoughts: the newer drivers maybe show up more often on 3-2-1. And as i learned from local PA pros too, many drivers could be reconed to the newer specs, i.e.: 2215, 2231H, (even E140s) could be reconed as 2235Hs. That exceeds the field to search. Even E110s could be reconed as 2123s(?), i'm watching a pair right now. OTOH, the list of arguments to stay within the 4343 specs is short: originality, or are there more? JBL had their reasons to improve these speakers.

- A lot of your assumptions on reconing ( posted in the above quote ) are incorrect .

- One must match the top-plate depth ( gap depth ) , as well as match the original magnet strength ( gauss level in the gap ) to expect to recreate the original transducer specs . The magnetic assemblies of the 2225H / 2205H / 2205a, are good candidates to turn into a 2235H woofer .

- Use the sites' search engine to find out all the woofers which will accept the 2235H recone kit . ( off the top of my head I don't have a thread to steer you towards / but there are many in the archives )



:)

[Fangio]

Oops.
You are right Earl, of course.
Won't refer to that kind of sources, or post unverified stuff again. :o: Its all here, found the appropriate threads. 2235Hs are certain now, I've heard the king of the the 15" some times, and the recone kits are not that pricy.

For now its seems the best to stay close to the chart from Giskard, and consider Toms short upgrade path – it has the most advantages. Also I understand that this is not just vintage JBL but also the pro series, and so another league. No prob to admit that, and hope there is no barrier. What i want is as best as possible sounding highend loudspeakers, if they also meet the requirements for museum pieces thats nice but comes in second place. :)

if you take that course there are a number of embelishments to consider depending on your budget and how far you want to go.If you're talking about fundamental considerations, i would be pleased if you could elaborate this, Ian. Thanks

[Robh3606]

Hello Fangio

I scratch built a pair of 4344's using plans I modifed from the 4345 thread and networks that Ian built using Giskards first network solution for the missing taped inductors. It was a fun project. They were well worth the time and money put into them. Looking over the threads will be a big help to you. If you don't already have some you may want to consider getting a basic measurement set-up. Could be as simple as an SPL meter or an inexpensive 1/3 octave RTA. Once you get things going having some kind of measurement capabillity will be invaluable as you balance the driver levels, verify phase as examples. I know it made a big difference for me. Good luck on your project. Please keep the pictures comming. Attached is the matrix for the cone kits. Watch the note on the E130/140

Rob:)

[Ian Mackenzie]

The intent of that statement was the overall refinement of the 4344 in terms of the driver layout, the drivers and crossover; and most importantly adjustment.

I suppose you could call those fundermental considerations.

Ian

[Fangio]

The intent of that statement was the overall refinement of the 4344 in terms of the driver layout, the drivers and crossover; and most importantly adjustement.

I suppose you could call those fundermental considerations.
Ah, embellishment, ok sorry. Thought that could be kind of a budget exploration a while, as ultralingua didn't know that. And you want to be the first who goes into the overall calculations... ;)

A further goal of this project is the chance to get perfect JBL 4-ways with a kind of payment in installments. :) The idea to buy them ready doesn't promise half of the fun than this step-by-step process does to me, including the hunt for parts. And there are other priorities where i have to spend money also. When you have more than one hobby, this makes sense in my eyes.
F.

[Fangio]

Hello Fangio
I scratch built a pair of 4344's using plans I modifed from the 4345 thread and networks that Ian built using Giskards first network solution for the missing taped inductors. It was a fun project. They were well worth the time and money put into them. Looking over the threads will be a big help to you. If you don't already have some you may want to consider getting a basic measurement set-up. Could be as simple as an SPL meter or an inexpensive 1/3 octave RTA. Once you get things going having some kind of measurement capabillity will be invaluable as you balance the driver levels, verify phase as examples. I know it made a big difference for me. Good luck on your project. Please keep the pictures comming. Attached is the matrix for the cone kits. Watch the note on the E130/140

Rob

Cool Rob, thanks. Exactly this one i saw before, but couldn't find it again. This time its saved. :)

Measurement – I have a multimeter, thats all so far. Will consider that.

[Fangio]

Time for an update, more to come as of today.

Still a long way to go. Like porschedpm and Ian predicted, the big hurdles are still to come - xovers, and appropriate (bi-)amping. Just wanted to let you know I'm following the currently very alive 4343 to 4344 upgrade (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6633&highlight=4343+4344) discussion and its associated threads with lots of interest.

[Ian Mackenzie]

If you need anything let me know.

Ian

[Fangio]

Very kind, will do. Thanks Ian.

Should probably describe a bit more detailed what I have now, at least as set to start with: 2405's, 2420's, 2122's, 2235.

[Fangio]

...

[Fangio]

Couldn't resist to buy a pair of 3143's. I was warned these networks are so hard to find and have some aged components, therefore aren't worth the high prices they fetch nowadays. However, this 4343 project wouldn't be complete without a set as backup, in my opinion - I should have heard these, perhaps in comparison to better ones in future, and FWIW to have an optional stock config (read: vintage value). And yes these networks were not a bargain too.. well, I got throwed in an extra at least..

[Fangio]

..there were some other, empty boxes attached to them. ;)

[Guido]

Extra Cabs??

Are they available?

Oh no, it starts again :uhmmmm:

And you definately infected by that JBL virus also :D

[Fangio]

To make a long story short, I've seen these empty cabs last winter already, here locally in a garage. It took me half a year convincing to get them out there now. I'll tell/show more of them later.

Be assured the utility cabs won't disappear in the basement forever, reduced to grille & lenses contributors only. I like their functional look too, their time will come also.

Right now I'm in the wiring process of one cabinet. Digging through older threads, I found this, from 2003:

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=487&highlight=4343+black+positive

My extract would be:
color/black striped wires go to BLACK terminal of all drivers
single color wires go to the RED terminal of all drivers

Correct, I hope. :blink:

[Guido]

My extract would be:
color/black striped wires go to BLACK terminal of all drivers
single color wires go to the RED terminal of all drivers

Correct, I hope. :blink:

YEP!

[Fangio]

Thanks Guido.

Both 4343's are running.

The (different evolution) steps may vary from this roadmap, depending on the components that come across my way. OK, things went exactly the other way round. Have to wait till next week for another pair of 15's though... crossing fingers they have a safe trip.

Hope you stay tuned. :)

[Fangio]

A little side step about packing.. (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10246)

The sender was so kind to shoot pics from the packing job. Perhaps it's visible: he embedded them using Bauschaum (foam in spray cans from DIY store) and let it dry inside the carton to protect them (of course after having them bolted together facing each other, and after being wrapped in airtight plastic). For those of you sending woofers long distance regularly this may be not new - please forgive me. I take that as not a bad idea, learned something yesterday.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it was a good idea to buy trial the original networks.

Perhaps a time allows you may wish to introduce some of the updates Greg Timbers suggested in his last post..one at a time. And the ultimately you may wish to revert back to the stock network / system and keep us imformed of any subjective improvements.

If you wish to try other components such as the 2397 Smith horn or the mini 2397 atop the 4343 like Johnny has made that would be interesting as well.

Ian

[Fangio]

You're reading my thoughts, Ian. Thanks for the hints.

Yep, step by step. Can't await the first correct setup for listening - what I've heard already in a far less than serious configuration is hard to believe. Once I have an equal pair of woofers (there was only one 2235 so far), there will be a new point zero, to start with optimizing the setup for these 4343's. I agree both would be reasonable ways to proceed.

Here's a first impression of the "new" enclosures, during the inspection of their inner life. They are still the first (in german Ur-) version of the 4343 I believe, SN 22439 & 22442? :hmm:

BTW, a lot of new JBL blue in the listening room here - and its just beautiful, got used to it within the first 24h.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Looks sexy!!:)

[Fangio]

Ok, finally got all drivers in that shape I wanted them to have, and on top abounding fun to track them down, from different sources. At last the woofs: a pair of 2231A's, reconed to 2235's. Well, hybrid.. but alnico.. :rolleyes: so I will get the chance to compare directly to the later, genuine 2235H, in the same room with the same electronics.
The 2405's I bought back from the guy that parted out the utility cabs, featuring the ol' blue diaphragms in great shape. The 2420's came in spring from eBay, with smooth aluminium dia's like new. Here could be room for tests - 2421, 2425.. So that's basically a 4333A assembly, and from 300Hz up I have the drivers that were ex factory in this members 4345's:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110236&postcount=47

These are 2122H's reconed by Harman in 2002, and will cover the lower mids for now. Still not sure if that works, as a simple bolt-in with these networks - have to listen a lot over the weekend.

Any feedback is much appreciated..

[norealtalent]

Sweeeeet!:) :) :)

[Fangio]

I haven't listened soo much yet, but - you 434x owners honestly think these need to be IMPROVED?? :nutz::applaud:

These monitors.. oh well, I'm lacking superlatives, in english. So full, so rich sound, deep, tight bass... ok I've heard 4343's before, but in totally different environment.. simply stunning seems to be close.



If you have 4343's and you like them as is then you're done and you can sit back and enjoy them. If you have 4343's and you want to try the 4344 components and networks you have that option and it's a nice option to have.
OKOK Giskard you were absolutely right (miss you, btw). Will certainly sit back for a while and take a deeep breath, enjoy them as is.

Then I'll try to determine if there is something I would like to do to proceed. You never know where the journey goes with stuff like this.. for now, I'm a happy man. :)

[Fangio]

Will report more, and make/post pics next time I have them down from the dollys. They aren't easy to maneuver.

Eventually I could build wooden U-profiles to cover the dollys, as a permanent solution.. :hmm:

[Fangio]

OK, managed it finally to take some pics of the system that I've put together. Usually they are far more away from each other.

For the enclosures: only a surface cleaning and slight walnut re-oiling yet, no other treatments. Much more they do not need in my opinion, survived in decent shape. Hope the cabinet builders/woodworking pro's will agree and find that presentable, and not too far away from the high restoration standards here.

[Fangio]

:)

[Guido]

WONDERFUL :bouncy:

[Rolf]

Very very nice Fangio.:) Just remember to place them with the 2505's to the left/right in your setup.

[Chas]

Very good:applaud: . Especially the JBL blue, it looks like a good match.
Nice work:).

[Steve Gonzales]

A very nice addition to the "four way frenzy" club. I am always amazed when I see large speakers with virually no cosmetic damage. All the care that had to have been given to make it that so. They are very beautiful Fangio.

[Fangio]

Rolf,
their position is >3,5m or 11,5ft away from each other, in a room having around 30qm. I get a better stereo image from the usual listening position with the slots in the inner mounting holes.

It's a pleasure to share these, same as with your pics Chas. Yes the blue is not easy to shoot, especially in this very sunny room. It was partially cleared out in the pics for a little paintwork.

Steve, yup the cabs don't know any hard studio use fortunately. And they did not spend much time in the garage ca. 2 years I was told.

A very old dream has come true, and there's still a lot of playground for further explorations. :) Thanks for the compliments gents. Glad you like them.

[norealtalent]

Very nice! Brings back many fond memories...:)

[Fangio]

Thanks Dave, also for your contribution. Black is beautiful too. :)


"four way frenzy" club These would require 3145 networks for the only club I know of - wouldn't they?

Doesn't that sound like a winter project? ;)

We'll see.

[Steve Gonzales]

Thanks Dave, also for your contribution. Black is beautiful too. :)

These would require 3145 networks for the only club I know of - wouldn't they?

Doesn't that sound like a winter project? ;)

We'll see. No, the 4343 is a four way. That seems to be the flavor of the day here, and rightly so. I shipped Dave a pair from California a couple of years ago. Damn near broke my a** moving, packing and shipping them. Majestic to witness in person. Enjoy your dream fulfilled, they deserve to be owned by someone like you. Regards, Steve G.

[Rolf]

Rolf,
their position is >3,5m or 11,5ft away from each other, in a room having around 30qm. I get a better stereo image from the usual listening position with the slots in the inner mounting holes.


THAT I do not understand. You have about the same room as I have, and I have tried both ways. I am sure you have a good stereo image with the 2405 on the inner side, but if you follow Ian's recommendations (as I did, but can't find the thread ... Somebody help??) you will get a much wider and deeper sound perspective. In my room the 2121 is adjusted to -1, the 2420 to -2, and the 2405 to -1. The network, the 5235 is set on level 7. All these adjustments is done with a SPL meter using specific frequencies for the different transducers. If you do this I can almost guarantee a big difference. Of course it also matters what is in your room regarding furniture, carpets and so on.

Try it, and good luck.

[Fangio]

You have about the same room as I have, and I have tried both ways. I am sure you have a good stereo image with the 2405 on the inner side, but if you follow Ian's recommendations (as I did, but can't find the thread ... Somebody help??) you will get a much wider and deeper sound perspective. In my room the 2121 is adjusted to -1, the 2420 to -2, and the 2405 to -1. The network, the 5235 is set on level 7.
Didn't find that specific recommendation also.

Well, the position for critical listening is ca. 4-4,5m away. With the 2405 on the outer sides I would get an almost equilateral triangle to them.

Ok, I'll just swap the boxes tonight (*groan*) and give it another whirl.

Also I'm awaiting a 5234 with the appropriate 4343 card soon, and have a 2nd power amp for a first Q&D biamp setup. Will report. :)

[Chas]

Ok, I'll just swap the boxes tonight (*groan*) and give it another whirl.
. :)

It could be worse, Dude....you could have 4345's:p

[Fangio]

It could be worse, Dude....you could have 4345's:p
Indeed. One 4343 weighs more already than I do (~75kg). :spin:


No, the 4343 is a four way. That wasn't meant too serious, more a little joke. Referred to the fact that this (4345) club, and also the 4344's upgraders all use 3145(-based) xovers. We'll see if these could once be counted to that elected group. ;)

[norealtalent]

Hey now! Forget the 4345's. Since you haven't bi-amped those 43's then you still haven't a clue what they really sound like. If I'd had bi-amped my first pair I'd probably never gone any further. :D

[Ducatista47]

UHF inside is a long standing, very subjective method for "linking" the tweeters. I use it myself. In the past some have felt doing so was necessary for good listening. I am currently doing it myself, but I can't defend it. I just prefer it.

Clark in Peoria

[Chas]

Hey now! Forget the 4345's. Since you haven't bi-amped those 43's then you still haven't a clue what they really sound like. If I'd had bi-amped my first pair I'd probably never gone any further. :D

I couldn't agree more.:)

[Rolf]

Ok, I'll just swap the boxes tonight (*groan*) and give it another whirl.


I forgot: about 10 deg angle against center. don't you have your speakers on wheels? I made 2 "shelf's" with wheels on them. Easy to move when my wife "have to get under or beneath them".

[yggdrasil]

I was thinking about this slot-placement. You stated that your room was 30sqm, 3,5m between the speakers and 4+m from speakers to the listening position.

Does that mean that
a) there are a very short distance from the speaker to the side wall?
b) you sit very near the back wall?

If any of the assumptions above is true you will have lots of early reflections affecting you.

Just a thought.

[Rolf]

If any of the assumptions above is true you will have lots of early reflections affecting you.

Just a thought.

Not if you have the right stuff on the wall Johnny. Agreed?

[Fangio]

Clark, thanks. Thats what I thought too - if it sounds good, why bother.

The first setup with the tweets in the outer holes wasn't a fair test though, electronics-wise. Since there are different opinions here I gave it a second try. From my other mirror-imaged speakers, the 4312's I learned that the tweeters on the inner position may help for better, deeper stereo imaging when speakers are far apart (and vise versa), and thats indeed what is audible with the 4343's again.

Rolf, Johnny, yes since the speakers are near the corners of the room, at least one, I angled both a bit to the center to avoid parallel reflections. The opposite wall in the back is almost completely covered by a huge book shelf. Maybe not optimal - well, this is a living/working area, not dedicated to perfect audio performance only.

Right now they are on wheels, or dollys again (see driver set pic). I consider the combination very handy but the look of this ones isn't that great. The 4343's seem to float with them, or to have wheels screwed directly into the bottom. Will either have to find nicer ones, or to hide them behind bezels.

[yggdrasil]

Not if you have the right stuff on the wall Johnny. Agreed?I have not been granted permission by my wife for that kind of fun.:p So there is no first hand experience in that field.


Rolf, Johnny, yes since the speakers are near the corners of the room, at least one, I angled both a bit to the center to avoid parallel reflections. The opposite wall in the back is almost completely covered by a huge book shelf. Maybe not optimal - well, this is a living/working area, not dedicated to perfect audio performance only.

I suppose that would be a normal situation for most of us.

A while back I had my 4-ways in a 4m x 7m room, with the speakers on the 4m wall. When sitting in the couch at the rear wall the sound stage was blurred. In a chair with 2-3m to the rear wall the sound stage was much more defined.

[Fangio]

...since you haven't bi-amped those 43's then you still haven't a clue what they really sound like. If I'd had bi-amped my first pair I'd probably never gone any further. :D OK, lets see. ;)

An active xover arrived here last weekend. It's a JBL 5234, and afaik it has been in more than one forum members hands. The cards inside are stamped with #51340.

This thread lists some of the 5234/5234A/5235 differences, in post #3 and #4:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4731&highlight=5234+bypass

The notes on the right side in the pic below indicate that this 5234 has been upgraded with some features of the later 5234A and 5235:

1/4 jacks and bypass caps added
C1, C2, C3, C5
C101, C102, C103, C105
0.1uF
5-16-04


I got it from Triumph Don (thanks), the modifications were done before he got it. My little hope was, perhaps the fellow who did that is still a forum member, recognizes his work and could answer some questions, as I'm quite new to these units. :dont-know

- caps type used
- are the cards 12db or 18db

And from the pic, is there any other addition desirable, from todays point of view. Anyway, I appreciate the jacks. :yes:

[Tom Loizeaux]

... In my room the 2121 is adjusted to -1, the 2420 to -2, and the 2405 to -1. The network, the 5235 is set on level 7. ...

Since you are bi-amping your 4343s, you could turn the L-pad pots all the way up and not waste power from your high frequency amp. Set the 2121 to max, the 2420 to +3, and the 2405 to max. Then you could turn down either your crossover levels or turn down you power amp feeding the high frequency section to get the balance you want without burning off power with your L-pads.

Tom

[Rolf]

Since you are bi-amping your 4343s, you could turn the L-pad pots all the way up and not waste power from your high frequency amp. Set the 2121 to max, the 2420 to +3, and the 2405 to max. Then you could turn down either your crossover levels or turn down you power amp feeding the high frequency section to get the balance you want without burning off power with your L-pads.

Tom

An interesting idea! Questions: I have been measuring the "-1 -2 -1" according to Ian's advice, and the result is excellent. Will your suggestion of" max -3 max" do the same? (Guess I can just try, but ...) I have never seen my hi frq amp have any trouble (2x200W 8 Ohm). Same power to the woofers, and on some records with very low notes I have stop turning the volume up.

[Guido]

OK, lets see. ;)

The notes on the right side in the pic below indicate that this 5234 has been upgraded with some features of the later 5234A and 5235:

1/4 jacks and bypass caps added
C1, C2, C3, C5
C101, C102, C103, C105
0.1uF
5-16-04


This means only that the bypass caps that where an improvement from 5234 to 5235 are also added here. NICE.




- caps type used
- are the cards 12db or 18db


The cards are 12db types and the right ones for 4343. If you tell the values I can check if the cards are 4343 or not. Original 4343 cards are stamped 52-5140. If yours are different we can modifiy them.

[Fangio]

Hi Guido, thanks for the offer. Here are two pics of the cards, hope this helps.

Sorry for the late answer, hope also there isn't a huge call for action.

[Guido]

Those are 4343 cards

[Ian Mackenzie]

Fangio, FYI:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=129259&postcount=194

[Fangio]

I hear ya, Ian. :) Thanks for putting me on the list.

[Fangio]

Ok, this was a year ago – time for an update.

At weekend there will be a tryout session for some different, larger midrange horn combinations, and to utilize these drivers.

Also finally got a pair of undamaged 2308's from another member – thanks.

[richluvsound]

Hi Fangio,

have you thought about putting dusted 2425 dia in them .

Ian swears by it . Guido has dia and I will dust them for you if you like.

Just let me know if I can help in anyway.

Rich

[Fangio]

Rich, thanks very much for the offer, you know that I'm open for options. :)

I'm cautious trying to accomplish improvements in the right order, and should probably have an adequate basis inside first, for such driver finetunings.

[Fangio]

Thought I could add more updates here, and some more recent pics with the original cones that I'm currently using – 2231, 2121 – before I'll modify the boxes again. Those do pop up over here every now and then, it's just a matter of patience.

Closer to stock configuration these 4343's won't come. But since I've got some 077's recently I will try these in place of the 2405's for a while. I expect them to be a tad louder with the 3143 networks.

The little black box is a passive filter I'm using for the woofs since a year – definitive superior in bi-amp mode for balancing the system, over the good old 5234. The active filter also absorbed quite a bit of the warmth and accuracy that tubes had added to the chain.

Obviously 2008 might become the year of the grey cabs.. :) a second driver set is almost complete.

[richluvsound]

Fangio,

I have never heard 4343. I'm really looking forward to it :D

Rich

[Carl]

My two 4343 WX 's have been producing extrordinary sound since the mid 70's when I bought them new, direct from JBL.

In the 90's I had the 15 inch drivers re-built because the foam surrounds had given up. Now the ten inch drivers have the same problem, but unless they are glued in, I can't remove them (After removing the four mounting screws.) and there doesn't seem to be a gap between the frame and the baffle-board so I could pry them out.

Any thoughts?:confused:

[Eaulive]

My two 4343 WX 's have been producing extrordinary sound since the mid 70's when I bought them new, direct from JBL.

In the 90's I had the 15 inch drivers re-built because the foam surrounds had given up. Now the ten inch drivers have the same problem, but unless they are glued in, I can't remove them (After removing the four mounting screws.) and there doesn't seem to be a gap between the frame and the baffle-board so I could pry them out.

Any thoughts?:confused:

Remove the baffle or the 3335 and push it out from behind.

[BMWCCA]

Remove the baffle or the 3335 and push it out from behind.
Isn't the mid-bass section a sealed sub-chamber? :dont-know:

[Robh3606]

Isn't the mid-bass section a sealed sub-chamber

Yes so it won't work trying to push them out. Just carefully try getting a putty knife under an edge to get them started. Sometimes the frames stick to the baffle. The only other thing holding them could be the ring gasket.

Rob:)

[Eaulive]

Isn't the mid-bass section a sealed sub-chamber? :dont-know:

DOH!

Brain fart, now I feel stoopid :o:

And I wrote 3335 instead of 2235, I don't remember drinking that day :blink:

[Carl]

Remove the baffle or the 3335 and push it out from behind.

the drivers finally came out and i will shortly pick them up from the re-builder. he said the voice coils were damaged and i should bring in both cabinets so he can analyze the crossovers. i'm leary about this, thinking he may be trying to jack up the total repair bill. any thoughts? i'm also thinking of finally bi-amping and simply upgrading the crossover.

[grumpy]

Feeling Leary? Don't be Tim-id. Ask what will be accomplished;
you're paying for it. I expect good intentions, but you should be
comfortable in understanding the service. Voice coils rubbed
because the foams let go and they were still played? Or other
voice coil damage (that might warrant a peek at the rest
of the system)?

[Carl]

Feeling Leary? Don't be Tim-id. Ask what will be accomplished;
you're paying for it. I expect good intentions, but you should be
comfortable in understanding the service. Voice coils rubbed
because the foams let go and they were still played? Or other
voice coil damage (that might warrant a peek at the rest
of the system)?

...to the tune of $530. The 15"-ers are fine, surrounds,cones, etc. were replaced a few years ago.

After talking to him about the caps, I figger I might just rebuild the X-over with new caps. As I learned from this site this is a pretty reasonable way to go. After all, they're 37 years old. Alternativelly, do you have a line on the better X-over, or know someone that would rebuild mine? Also, I'll go the bi-amp route, since I already have an E-V Electronic X-over. All I need then is a power amp for the Bass speakers.